Trouble? Bad PR for sure. A very awkward press conference. I doubt anything beyond that.Hmm. Maybe. But this is a really bad look. Meyer said he knew nothing of allegations against Smith in 2015. McMurphy has text messages between Smith’s wife and Meyer’s wife where Shelley Meyer is urging her to leave him because of the abuse.
Hmm. Maybe. But this is a really bad look. Meyer said he knew nothing of allegations against Smith in 2015. McMurphy has text messages between Smith’s wife and Meyer’s wife where Shelley Meyer is urging her to leave him because of the abuse.I agree. It looks bad. The coverage of domestic abuse is at an all time high (thankfully). He won't be fired, but this will follow him for a while. I'd suspect ESPN digs in now... he's not in the SEC anymore.
We’ll see.
I agree. It looks bad. The coverage of domestic abuse is at an all time high (thankfully). He won't be fired, but this will follow him for a while. I'd suspect ESPN digs in now... he's not in the SEC anymore.Particularly with the ongoing story of the athletic doctor sexually abusing athletes.
Rant: I get annoyed with the highest profile guy is set up as the scapegoat. Why isn't Shelly getting investigated? How about Mrs. Smith others friends? Reporters are targeting Meyer to get the clicks, and I don't think that's how it should be.Shelly would be investigated until she told investigators she passed this along to the head coach. This may have taken about 10 minutes. Shelly wouldn't be in the spotlight if she took this to Urban.
Rant: I get annoyed with the highest profile guy is set up as the scapegoat. Why isn't Shelly getting investigated? How about Mrs. Smith others friends? Reporters are targeting Meyer to get the clicks, and I don't think that's how it should be.Did Shelly or Mrs. Smith's other friends get in front of the media and tell everyone they didn't know?
Story is on the front page of the MSN home page now.this still exists, and is viewed by adults, knowingly?
this still exists, and is viewed by adults, knowingly?It's my parents' home page, smh. I did, however, successfully covert them from IE to Chrome.
Rant: I get annoyed with the highest profile guy is set up as the scapegoat. Why isn't Shelly getting investigated? How about Mrs. Smith others friends? Reporters are targeting Meyer to get the clicks, and I don't think that's how it should be.Well, I think the McMurphy article does point out that as an OSU employee, she may have culpability for not reporting this about another OSU employee, due to Title IX. For example, at my work, any manager who learns of sexual harrassment is required to report it. It doesn't matter if someone tells you "don't tell anyone, I'm just confiding in you", you have to take it to HR anyway. There may be some culpability for her because she works for the organization as well.
this still exists, and is viewed by adults, knowingly?My personal email is Hotmail (been so for 10+ years) and that page takes my directly to it. So, yes.
Trouble? Bad PR for sure. A very awkward press conference. I doubt anything beyond that.disagree.
Urban isn’t a scapegoat, he just finally got caught lying on something big. He’s been lying to people since he was at BG. For dishonest people, it becomes a way of life. Dude is an amazing football coach. One of the best ever. Not an amazing human being.I don't know enough details to confirm or deny BG lying. I thought he was an arrogant SOB while at Florida, and didn't like his hire at OSU.
disagree.We'll see. The "media" that covers sports also televises games, and has a vested interest in a good Ohio State. As of 30 minutes ago ESPN had no mention of it on their site, not even on the college football page. Their #1 story was the mishandling of a sex assault report at Idaho.
the climate has changed in this country. big time. #MeToo movement is out for blood and the media sensationalizes everything. this could potentially roast his ass.
We'll see. The "media" that covers sports also televises games, and has a vested interest in a good Ohio State. As of 30 minutes ago ESPN had no mention of it on their site, not even on the college football page. Their #1 story was the mishandling of a sex assault report at Idaho.ESPN is about the only outlet in the country not reporting it now. McMurphy was just on ESPNU radio poking fun at his former employer for not going with it.
We'll see. The "media" that covers sports also televises games, and has a vested interest in a good Ohio State. As of 30 minutes ago ESPN had no mention of it on their site, not even on the college football page. Their #1 story was the mishandling of a sex assault report at Idaho.the media that covers sports is insignificant compared to the media that regular everyday people consume. It really is.
Legally, Meyer isn’t required to fire him or even contact the authorities (at least that I know of).
What is going to take him down is lying about it. It’s a PR nightmare. You can’t say you knew nothing about it when your wife had pictures of the abuse on her phone. And no, no one is going to believe his wife didn’t tell him.
There are other texts from other coaches’ wives that say things like, “Urban doesn’t know what to do.”Objection, your honor: hearsay!
He was only loyal to that clown Smith because of his love for the guys' grandfather.poor reasoning
I saw the photos of what was done to Smith's wife. I concur Zach Smith is a POS. glad he was fired.yeah, it looked pretty bad.
That may not be true, dependent on Title IX.Objection your honor works in a courtroom. Not in the court of public opinion. And this is the arena that Ohio St is in with this decision.
And as I said, even if there is no criminal justice requirement that he doesn't report it, there may be OSU internal rules that he's violated by not taking this to his superiors (assuming he, in fact, knew).
Correct. No one is going to believe him. But given his coaching talent, it's questionable whether he'll get fired if there's no actual proof. The public will likely be out for blood, but if he survives the next few weeks with the "I didn't know" mantra and there's no proof, eventually it will blow over. The public doesn't have enough stamina to keep these things up all that long.
Objection, your honor: hearsay!
Objection sustained: the evidence is inadmissible.
poor reasoningany other guy, I think Urban would've gotten rid of him a long time ago. Really think he kept that dipshit around out of loyalty/love for Bruce.
What I am flummoxed by though, is why work so hard to keep Zach Smith? Slightly above average recruiter and below average coach. Was the relationship with Coach Bruce that powerful to risk what has now come to light?it's the relationship with Bruce. Smith was a terrible WR coach and a complete ass clown. Everyone of his WR's went to the NFL not knowing how to run routes. They all had to be taught. ONLY reason he kept him around was bc he was Bruce's grandson.
Idk. I think this is looking bad for Urby right now.I agree. As I said, if he survives the next few weeks, though, he'll survive. I believe the American public will be distracted by the next shiny thing and if he makes it through that, he's in the clear.
Urban knew. It’s clear his wife, and a number of others in the coaching circle did, so I find it impossible he didn’t.It goes back to what I said about what the cop said about how things were handled in Ann Arbor under Bo. I think this is simply always the way it's been, and guys didn't really think about it like they were taking a risk. They were simply doing things the way they've always been done. The most damning evidence so far against Izzo is that he kpe a former player/unpaid grad assistant on after being accused of punching a girl in a bar, and that was my first thought. This isn't some star player or big time assistant. It's not even A player or AN assistant. Why risk it for a grad assistant? The only logical answer is these guys have operated one way for decades and didn't know to operate any differently.
What I am flummoxed by though, is why work so hard to keep Zach Smith? Slightly above average recruiter and below average coach. Was the relationship with Coach Bruce that powerful to risk what has now come to light?
What is also clear to me is that it’s hard to hide much these days with our electronic footprints of texting, social media, etc. You will get bitten eventually.
yeah, it looked pretty bad.it's the top headline now
there's finally a small link on espn about it. it took some looking though.
it's the top headline nowThe semantics nerd in my wants to argue “led to” grants the leeway for all that. He history doesn’t come up without the charge.
big trouble
The 2009 and 2015 accusations came to light last month, when Zach Smith was charged with criminal trespassing after dropping his children off at Courtney Smith's home, which led to his firing as wide receivers coach on July 24.
Hah, he wasn't fired for criminal trespassing. He was fired for 2009-2015 and everything put together.
I think ESPN probably held back becuase of pettiness with Brett. Too bad. It does remind me a lot of folks were convinced that network just hated OSU at one point.I'd bet it's 100% that considering ESPN fired McMurphy and he's went on to break more stories by himself than all of the sports "journalists" at ESPN have combined since his firing. They are just being petty with an ex-employee.
So... Kevin Wilson, or Greg Schiano?Wilson has too much baggage.
So... Kevin Wilson, or Greg Schiano?I think they need to make a political correction hire...somebody known for their ethics, good credibility on women's issues, and experience in the BIG is always a plus.
it's starting to pop on the on the top pages of the sites everywhere.....Just judging off the taglines, every one says Urban knew, except ESPN says people close to Urban knew. That actually might be right, but it's funny
https://www.thedailybeast.com/texts-reveal-ohio-states-urban-meyer-knew-his-aide-abused-wife-in-2015-report?source=articles&via=rss
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/report-urban-meyer-knew-about-2015-domestic-violence-incident-involving-ex-assistant/
https://sports.yahoo.com/urban-meyer-knew-osu-coachs-alleged-domestic-violence-nothing-deserves-fired-174323593.html
http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/24255877/people-meyer-knew-15-case
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/bigten/2018/08/01/urban-meyer-knew-abuse-claims-ohio-state-assistant-zach-smith/880995002/
So... Kevin Wilson, or Greg Schiano?Gawd Badge, you know how to turn the knife.
Lynch mob has been activated so Urban better watch out.What sort of BS?
So sick of this BS.
Lynch mob has been activated so Urban better watch out.I don't think it's BS.
So sick of this BS.
Just judging off the taglines, every one says Urban knew, except ESPN says people close to Urban knew. That actually might be right, but it's funnythere are texts from other coaches wives saying Urban doens't know what to do. There are texts from Shelly Meyer saying she's going to talk to Urban.
Gawd Badge, you know how to turn the knife.Wasn't meant that way. Just thinking that this one is over.
Head hunting for someone who broke no laws or rules. Did the police know? I guess so since they were called multiple times. Why wasn’t Smith prosecuted? Go after the dickhead who let that slide. Its not the head coaches job to enforce the law.No. But it is the head coaches job not to employ people that beat their wives.
No. But it is the head coaches job not to employ people that beat their wives.Well maybe if Smith had been convicted of abuse Urban would have fired him? Firing someone who your wife says is bad might not be too smart if that and other BS is all you have.
Well maybe if Smith had been convicted of abuse Urban would have fired him? Firing someone who your wife says is bad might not be too smart if that and other BS is all you have.the ex-wife sent pics and screen shots of text messages of some of the beatings and threats that POS Smith sent to her. Meyer's wife said to the ex-wife that Zach Smith scares her, and asked her if she had a restraining order. Give me a break with this BS. Just because he wasn't convicted means nothing. That POS douchebag was beating a 115 pound woman and he got away with it. He lost his job only when Urban couldn't cover for him anymore. He should consider himself lucky he's only lost his job. That POS should be lined up and shot by a firing squad.
they are both the same
Covering for tattoos and a little cash vs. covering for beating women. You tell me which one is worse. I'll hang up and listen.
What BS?The legal world of domestic violence is difficult. Is the threshold really prosecution? Does a woman really want to move forward in court in Columbus with the Earle Bruce’s grandson. Based on what fans have said on social media today about her I would guess not. Especially when his $400k a year salary is supporting her and her children’s life.
Head hunting for someone who broke no laws or rules.
Did the police know? I guess so since they were called multiple times. Why wasn’t Smith prosecuted? Go after the dickhead who let that slide. Its not the head coaches job to enforce the law.
Times have changed. 10 years ago - hell, two years ago - this wouldn't get any press.This is exactly true. Very interesting times we live in.
The key is the lying part.
What BS?An interesting question. What does it mean to break rules? The legal system is one way, but it errs on the side of not acting in a great many cases. That’s fine. But if you feel strongly someone did something bad, should you act? Should you have to wait for the legal system to act?
Head hunting for someone who broke no laws or rules.
Did the police know? I guess so since they were called multiple times. Why wasn’t Smith prosecuted? Go after the dickhead who let that slide. Its not the head coaches job to enforce the law.
Front page of the Chicago Tribune now. It's also the lead story on SI.listen to that interview I posted with McMurphy.
This thing took off fast today.
Front page of the Chicago Tribune now. It's also the lead story on SI.Plus, with this being a slower time of year in sports news, expect every single host on the sports talk dial to lead every hour with Urban Meyer tomorrow, if they didn’t already start today (like Cowherd).
This thing took off fast today.
“Zach once told me,” said Courtney, “if he ever got fired and this all comes out: ‘I’ll take everyone at Ohio State down with me.’ ”
I suppose it is Ohio State's turn to be in the negative spotlight. Again.You sure about that, with Title IX and all?
Probably wouldn't look bad if the head coach just came clean. But for some reason it looks like he's being untruthful. Again.
Fortunately, no NCAA violations this time. I'm thinking things get rocky for a bit and then they settle down again. It would shock me if Urban gets anything more than a slap on the wrist.
On the other hand, a lot of rumors regarding the reason Zach Smith wasn't fired.
https://www.facebook.com/TheBrettMcMurphy/posts/2042037522486968 (https://www.facebook.com/TheBrettMcMurphy/posts/2042037522486968)
Just to be clear, I am not hating on OSU, I'm just making comparisons between the last witch hunt and this one.Leave politics out of this please.
this is what a reporter from 11Warriors- a Buckeye site- that covered OSU for years wrote...Well Ramzy runs 11 warriors - if that is actually his quote, see ya URBZ we hardly knew ye
Ramzy Nasrallah @ramzy (https://twitter.com/ramzy)
Of course he knew. He knew he was an alcoholic, he knew his marriage was in shambles and he knew that his mentor's grandson was a terrible football coach and that he was protected because of bloodline. Literally everybody knew. I knew. I wrote around it for six years
7:37 AM - 1 Aug 2018
School put him on administrative leave. Ryan Day steps in.This is a better reaction than that of the last round. "I hope Tressel doesn't fire me."
I’m kind of shocked they acted this fast.
Leave politics out of this please.Politics? cause I said witch hunt...OOOOOOHHHHH :smiley_confused1:
You sure about that, with Title IX and all?Hah! That and my slow period every year is from August to October. Hard to keep up before and after that. :(
Nothing like a scandal thread to bring posters out of the woodwork.
Welcome back, all. Can't wait to see what tomorrow brings.
This is a better reaction than that of the last round. "I hope Tressel doesn't fire me."Exactly,like you I wasn't that enamored with UFM.But when Tressell tried to assuage the rancor with "I'm suspending myself 2 weeks - then 4 weeks then 7 weeks.Like the population is a gaggle of ebola chimps believing that steaming pile.Specially for covering up something so trivial
BBTZ is back, with his S instead of Z? Now that is some major news, on an otherwise slow news day! :)Few can put that above the sports impact. Way of life
Like others I just hate hearing stories like this. First and foremost I hate that a woman was abused for years. No matter what else happens, that is the story that needs to be understood, remembered, and acted upon.
I have no idea what else went on, I suppose time will tell, but man, I just hope and pray for a time when we can get past where beating up on less powerful people is commonplace.
Politics? cause I said witch hunt...OOOOOOHHHHH :smiley_confused1:Hah!
Well Ramzy runs 11 warriors - if that is actually his quote, see ya URBZ we hardly knew yeit's from his twitter. check it out.
Reese Davis is reporting the Administrative Leave isn't to investigate Myer's knowledge of the abuse or not, but to finalize his termination.Well no, he said he has no info to that effect, but that is his suspicion.
I just want Due Process! Not a court of public opinion conviction.
Well no, he said he has no info to that effect, but that is his suspicion.This blurred line between journalistic reporting and talking-head, tie-wearing "what if" garbage is a societal problem.
I don't think the #metoo movement's desire is for the guy who knew about the guy beating up his wife to lose his job, but for the abuser to be imprisoned for what he did.Honestly, I’m pretty much with you on this. This is the downside of being rich and famous. If a manager at Denny’s handles the exact same situation the exact same way with one of his cashiers and his boss finds out it’s not even an issue. It’s “Eh, it’s really none of our business anyway.”
I listened to the ESPN college football podcast today, and came away feeling gross. Not by anything that Meyer did, but by what whores ESPN (and all 'news' outlets) and what whores we are to the daily, ongoing news cycle. Smith should be the one held over a fire right now. He committed the crimes. He's the garbage human being. But how things are, we find the bad apple and scan the entire tree, ravenously searching for the most important apple on it, then attacking it instead of the bad apple.
Meyer should lose his job because he knew something EVERYONE involved knew? Why? Because he lied? Who here hasn't lied twice today? This is stupid and lets the garbage human being abuser piece of shit become the backseat story...which is wrong.
This blurred line between journalistic reporting and talking-head, tie-wearing "what if" garbage is a societal problem.Most "news" is talking head opinions. I'm not defending him, I was just scaling back any discussion that his words were an actual report
People aren't smart enough to tell when they're listening to a journalist or a commentator, period.
Few can put that above the sports impact. Way of lifeNo doubt. And then even of those who do act like they put it above sports impact, a decent fraction is just lip service. Saying the right things to make it seem like one's priorities are straight.
This blurred line between journalistic reporting and talking-head, tie-wearing "what if" garbage is a societal problem.When it comes to this topic, I toss two opposite ideas in my head.
People aren't smart enough to tell when they're listening to a journalist or a commentator, period.
When it comes to this topic, I toss two opposite ideas in my head.Well said.....
Either:
(1) the media is us - that if one were able to add up and average every NPR, Nat. Enquirer rag, Fox/CNN editorial, Vogue mag, Tumblr post, podcast, radio station, house flipping reality TV and all the others that it would be precisely equal to the average of modern humanity in terms of good/bad, decency/foulness, simplicity/nuance, oafishness/sophistication (...) and that if you agree that the media complex is amidst a long nosedive of "lowering the bar," that it isn't the media heads but civilization itself that is primarily to blame. And if we become healthier, so will our media.
OR
(2) Civilization is qualitatively no better/worse than it has ever been (since, e.g., the advent of television), yet the founding forces of big media like television began with high ideals that were mismatched with modern society and the long nosedive of "lowering the bar" is just an inevitable outcome of the sum-of-all-media changing to best reflect its representatives.
In either case, I believe that "we common people" are more primarily to blame than the "media execs." Both options are consistent with that. They just differ on the mechanism to-date and future outlook. I find option #2 much more pessimistic (as it implies our crappiness is innate and - with some qualifiers about 100years being a relatively short experiment on the scale of civilization - maybe we can't as a cumulative unit become any better, so our nosediving media is *necessarily* here to stay).
Any of OSU’s 15 solid 2019 commits softening?Any of them? Hopefully the one he flipped from UW flips back.
Logic dictates Urban’s entire staff be swept at the end of the season since they were in on the dirty secret. Everyone should be highly motivated in camp.
The timing of this mess could not be worse from the Buckeyes point of view.
So how long until Urban finds himself on Nick Saban's staff?HA!Nice, no doubt St.Nick will offer him just to be smug,pretty sure UFM doesn't need the coin
As for his staff, I think it's wiped clean of anyone who was there besides Meyer, from 2015. Buckeye fans can correct that, but I'm pretty sure I'm right.IMO not until 2019,anyone taking the reigns right now will need all the help they can get.And it'll be only a temporary apptmnt.Can't just overhaul everything with no connection to the present players.There could be a mass exodus otherwise.Which is fine if you want to wreck the program for a few years
IMO not until 2019,anyone taking the reigns right now will need all the help they can get.And it'll be only a temporary apptmnt.Can't just overhaul everything with no connection to the present players.There could be a mass exodus otherwise.Which is fine if you want to wreck the program for a few yearsNo, what I meant is that I don't think there is anyone left on the staff now that was there in 2015.
Larry Johnson
No, what I meant is that I don't think there is anyone left on the staff now that was there in 2015.
One of the more interesting aspects of this is how population in general reacts. It appears as if the 2015 incident was completely denied by Zack Smith and the police investigation agreed with him.How do you respond to the detail that everything in McMurphy's article(s) has been documented? (Arrests, charges, photos, texts with Shelley Meyer, etc.) That it doesn't include any anonymous sources? That, unless the documents are questioned, the story can stand alone without hand waving about "whatever else is out there?"
In other words it’s a he said she said and whether anything even happened at all, yet everyone is so quick to assume that he did these things he’s being accused of.
I have actually been the witness in court to a similar situation where she abused him but tried to have him prosecuted for abusing her.
The Faux out rage of Urban’ detractors is humorous and predictable
Any of OSU’s 15 solid 2019 commits softening?Word that Dwan Mathis reached out to MSU about flipping back, and was told no.
Logic dictates Urban’s entire staff be swept at the end of the season since they were in on the dirty secret. Everyone should be highly motivated in camp.
The timing of this mess could not be worse from the Buckeyes point of view.
One of the more interesting aspects of this is how population in general reacts. It appears as if the 2015 incident was completely denied by Zack Smith and the police investigation agreed with him.Am I to read into this that you are a person working in the legal profession? (sorry if that's a tad personal, but I wanted to shape a response and that context would matter)
In other words it’s a he said she said and whether anything even happened at all, yet everyone is so quick to assume that he did these things he’s being accused of.
I have actually been the witness in court to a similar situation where she abused him but tried to have him prosecuted for abusing her.
The Faux out rage of Urban’ detractors is humorous and predictable
When did Smith's wife actually file charges?I mean for real,because unless Urban witnessed the abuse,what legally was he obligated to do?We know morally what the obligation is.But was Smith ex also reluctant to get him fired.Just asking because I'm not spending any time investigating.IMO Meyer and Gene Smith will both be shown the doorThe DV situations can be tricky. A friend works in an ER and will talk to girls who say "Yes he busted up my face, but I can't leave him."
I hope Urban gets a fair shake. Don’t know what the facts are. Do know universities are densly populated with PC cliff divers.Ya me too 430 but if he knew about this for quite some time then sayonara.At one time or another he had to report up to Gene Smith if he knew.Specially after what happened at other schools,so either ignorant or negligent neither is a virtue
How do you respond to the detail that everything in McMurphy's article(s) has been documented? (Arrests, charges, photos, texts with Shelley Meyer, etc.) That it doesn't include any anonymous sources? That, unless the documents are questioned, the story can stand alone without hand waving about "whatever else is out there?"There is no dispute about the arrest in 2009.
That's the aspect that makes it most credible.
I hope Urban gets a fair shake. Don’t know what the facts are. Do know universities are densly populated with PC cliff divers.Chances are very high, we will never fully know this.
Am I to read into this that you are a person working in the legal profession? (sorry if that's a tad personal, but I wanted to shape a response and that context would matter)No. As a personal witness. The female pressed charges for him hitting her.
Day being named interim head coach over the more experienced Schiano and Wilson is interesting. I wonder if they’ve started packing their baggage.I also thought that was interesting. I think it indicates that they are at least thinking about the possibility that this "Acting Head Coach" thing will become "Interim Head Coach" and they wanted to avoid the baggage of Schiano and Wilson. If they were confident that it was just a few weeks then it would be logical to appoint one of those two who have run programs in the past.
I hope Urban gets a fair shake. Don’t know what the facts are. Do know universities are densly populated with PC cliff divers.This could be a major issue in this situation.
There is no dispute about the arrest in 2009.I think that's the careful way to approach this and can support it since we may never know every detail for sure. But it does come with some booby traps.
The question at hand is 2015. There was no arrest. Shelley Meyer encouraged her to press charges and she wouldn’t.
The police investigated and also did not press
You have heard only one side- the side of someone who is going public only after her income source has dried up.
I would think you would like to hear what Zach Smith has to say and what Meyer had to say.
If you watch Urbans comments specifically he says “when we looked into 2015 there was nothing there”.
He also mentions “ what was reported is not what happened “.
I get the feeling there is a he said- she said aspect to this- so in that case what do you do?
I think that's the careful way to approach this and can support it since we may never know every detail for sure. But it does come with some booby traps.So what if Meyer approached Zack Smith about the alleged 2015 incident and Zach Smith not only disputed it but had counterclaims. Then Meyer who says they checked with the authorities and the authorities position was there’s no evidence to back Smith‘s wife’s claims. Then what do you do? And lastly when all this came to light Smith was simply dropping off the child at the ex-wife‘s house which granted he was not supposed to do but where is the big crime in that
-That 2009 happened (even without all the house calls in the 2010s) does forever link Smith to a certain kind of behavior. With Urban admitting he knew about that "first" example.
-That Shelley texted what she did (with the serious tone she seems to have) further ramps the credibility and brings (alleged) repeat offenses (that people other than just Courtney believed) into the OSU community and Meyer household.
Which comes awfully close to an airtight pattern of behavior (Smith) argument. With credible support for the idea that the pattern was willfully ignored.
I've been thinking about this for a while and I'm more than a little perplexed.I've thought about this a lot in the last 24 hours as well. I suppose if it came up, I would go directly to legal counsel and ensure it was well documented in writing.
First, as someone who has hire/fire responsibility I never encountered or considered a situation like this but what is my responsibility if one of my employees is allegedly beating his wife?
And lastly when all this came to light Smith was simply dropping off the child at the ex-wife‘s house which granted he was not supposed to do but where is the big crime in thatthat's the admission. This is not a big crime on it's own. So, obviously there have been much larger things leading up to this minor incident.
A very separate thought: even before any of this, who thought Zach Smith was a well adjusted, good guy who had a talent for coaching and definitely deserved to keep his job?Zach Smith is a POS human garbage and spectacularly he's an even more garbage football coach than he is human being.
Although the DV was his ultimate undoing, he probably deserved to be canned long before -- for his online persona and, as Ramzy argues, inability to coach.
I've thought about this a lot in the last 24 hours as well. I suppose if it came up, I would go directly to legal counsel and ensure it was well documented in writing.Yes. Probably that as a minimum. I probably would not be held accountable if I didn't though. I'd just be upset with myself.
Even if Smith disputed it, the OSU admin clearly thinks that 2009+2015 was enough to fire Smith.Agreed and that’s why he was fired. Why are we assuming that Meyer did not inform his superiors? Who has ever said that? And where exactly is this “lie”? If you listen carefully to what he said at the big 10 media days he basically clears the air on 2009 and says that in 2015 the police report or whatever information he sought to find the truth indicated that there was nothing there.
You can argue that Shelley Meyer was just wrong. And that all those ugly photos of Courtney were photoshopped or staged. But - although technically possible - those things seem unlikely.
I disagree. It's awful, but I disagree.
Let me be clear about this: if he was truly aware of physical abuse that was ongoing ( in other words validated or at least highly likely given that her refusal to press charges makes many of her claims questionable ) and did nothing as far as informing his superiors and just try to hope it was swept under the rug, he needs to be terminated for that.
Agreed and that’s why he was fired. Why are we assuming that Meyer did not inform his superiors? Who has ever said that? And where exactly is this “lie”? If you listen carefully to what he said at the big 10 media days he basically clears the air on 2009 and says that in 2015 the police report or whatever information he sought to find the truth indicated that there was nothing there.That's where this gets mushy.
Yeah I think we are finding that out across all mediums. I'm not talking about the Harvey Weinstein stuff, but people having old Tweets dragged out. I think the days of coaches being able to put blinders on while the police "handle" stuff is over. Hell, I remember the drug officer in 1995 telling a room full of 5th graders that the standing orders for UM/Ann Arbor police officers, when he was on the beat in the 70s and 80s was that if he picked up a UM football player, you absolutely did not book him, or take him to jail. You took him straight to Bo's house, and he handled it. He didn't tell it in a "can you believe this?" but in a "this is funny" kind of way, and not to people at a private dinner party, but to a room full of public school children.http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/24259780/urban-meyer-ohio-state-buckeyes-coaching-scandal
I think a lot of these coaches grew up in that mentality.
That's where this gets mushy.Well you raised a good point earlier about - if this is all true, then all of the coaches knew.
If you assume he did in fact report this to superiors, he contradicted that last week at media days.
I have no doubt Smith did what he did to his wife. His text message to her confirms this.
Let me be clear about this: if he was truly aware of physical abuse that was ongoing ( in other words validated or at least highly likely given that her refusal to press charges makes many of her claims questionable ) and did nothing as far as informing his superiors and just try to hope it was swept under the rug, he needs to be terminated for that. But right now all I hear are a lot of assumptions about that based on one person‘s side of the story as reported by one media personAgreed,thanx for saving me time/effort.Find it hard to believe he did not report up,if guilty let him swing like Tress.Really starting to think Gene Smith doesn't survive this or he shouldn't
I disagree. It's awful, but I disagree.Moral contractual obligations as a State Emolyee
Meyer's job is to look out for his players and his family. His coaching assistant's wives aren't really his business. There's a reason they specify "domestic" violence - that's in soemoone else's home.
It's not a comfortable idea, but I feel it's accurate.
The other coaches that were there need to be accountable. Vrabel- Coombs- Warriner and so on.perhaps why the particular coach was named interim ? He was someone that did not know?
quick note before i post this, the guy reporting this (o'keefe/project veritas) is as shady as they come, so take it with a health dash of salt, but it is being reported along with the meyer stuff, so figured i'd just get it all out there now.Yeah those sources have a pretty stupid journalistic history. Deserves zero trust.
they are reporting/posting videos of florida players (under the meyer staff) discussing 'abuse' to those players. supposedly with more to come that are more condemning.
imo, the videos so far that i've seen are pretty weak, but they are there. also, as noted above, o'keefe has been found to edit videos creatively to get what he wants, so again, take with grain of salt.
perhaps why the particular coach was named interim ? He was someone that did not know?Right away, appointing Day seemed pretty thoughtful and proactive. Made it seem another increment more likely that an interim succession plan was at least on the table.
I have actually been the witness in court to a similar situation where she abused him but tried to have him prosecuted for abusing her.
When did Smith's wife actually file charges?I mean for real,because unless Urban witnessed the abuse,what legally was he obligated to do?We know morally what the obligation is.But was Smith ex also reluctant to get him fired.Just asking because I'm not spending any time investigating.IMO Meyer and Gene Smith will both be shown the doorHonestbuckeye: Likewise I have a personal friend with a crazy ex-wife that injured herself, called the cops, got him arrested. Luckily for him it got laughed out of court by the judge who realized she was a nutcase. That said, there is a long-standing pattern here, not a one-time incident. Pretty sure that if she had been calling the cops on him over and over with no reason, he'd have walked away instead of her divorcing him. The optics don't look like a he-said / she-said.
Moral contractual obligations as a State Emolyeethis.
this.Spoken like a true fan of a team that can’t beat the guy. Judge, jury and hangman.
He's the highest paid state employee in Ohio. He's also responsible for shaping 18-22 year old men. These aren't professionals where he could fall back on the excuse that they are just there to be paid and do a job, that he doesn't need to be a role model and example for them. He's a college coach. That is part of his job like or not. Urban has a moral obligation not to hire and keep around wife beaters. The buck stops with him. He is the CEO. He is responsible for that program and he is responsible for the people that he HIRES to WORK FOR HIM. I keep hearing about people talking about other coaches. Other coaches didn't hire and keep Zach Smith around for almost a decade. Urban did. Other coaches can say whatever they want to Urban, hey maybe this guy should be out of here- but it's not up to them to fire anyone. Only Urban or someone above him like the AD/President can make that call.
He absolutely knew. There is no way in hell Shelley Meyer didn't tell him. They've been married for 30 years. Zach Smith wasn't just a coach either. He was also the grandson of his mentor/2nd father. He's known Zach Smith for most of Zach Smith's life. Urban says he and his wife tried to help out in the 2009 incident involving Smith and his ex-wife. Urban wasn't just his employer. He was a close family friend and he knew there was a history of domestic violence with this guy dating back to 2009.
There really was no excuse for him keeping that despicable excuse of a human being Zach Smith around. Why did Urban only fire him only a week ago? Oh maybe bc the piece of shit finally got popped and it slipped out in the media? I'd bet my life he'd still be the WR coach had it not gone public. The Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that the police were called by that woman NINE times in the last 6 years. Nine times. You think Columbus PD doesn't have Urban's #? You really think he doesn't have connections there? The ex-wife has records of texts and pics she sent Shelley Meyer. Shelley asked her if she had a restraining order and to get one because Zach scares her. You have to suspend all belief to think for one second Shelley never shared pics or told Urban about any of it.
And don't give me this horseshit that oh charges were never filed, charges were never filed he was never convicted. Bullshit. Unfortunately women who suffer abuse for years and never file charges or even call the police after their husbands beat them. They take the abuse hoping things will get better. It's fucked up and it's sad. The only way things will ever change is if people like Zach Smith are ostracized, ridiculed, and cast aside and have their entire worlds destroyed and the people who ENABLE THEM like Urban Meyer did are held accountable.
First, as someone who has hire/fire responsibility I never encountered or considered a situation like this but what is my responsibility if one of my employees is allegedly beating his wife?
I've thought about this a lot in the last 24 hours as well. I suppose if it came up, I would go directly to legal counsel and ensure it was well documented in writing.
Yes. Probably that as a minimum. I probably would not be held accountable if I didn't though. I'd just be upset with myself.I've had training on this from my employer, as I used to have some management responsibility.
Not everyone has a contractual obligation (and, presumably, training) to report, however.
Spoken like a true fan of a team that can’t beat the guy. Judge, jury and hangman.No. Spoken like a true person who has ZERO tolerance for women beating pieces of shit like Zach Smith.
This scenario, while serious, is MANY categories less serious than what went on under LAKS or Paterno. But what it seems to share in common - that I think ELA put into words nicely - is the philosophy of "hear no evil/see no evil" deniability...and how it just doesn't work these days.I give zero shits about free tats or paying players. I thought Tressell got a bit of a raw deal.
First, yes, in all these situations it's probable that the head honcho knew what was happening. My point in this post is that maybe it doesn't even matter if they knew. Because not knowing would just be a different sign of a broken ship.
And captains who build broken ships (leaders who won't end up learning about serial abuse even when "everyone knows" because they didn't correctly build their culture), well, those leaders should be stopped from sailing.
There is no dispute about the arrest in 2009.Yah, after a night of reflection. I'm thinking after the media strom Meyer gets off on a technicality.
The question at hand is 2015. There was no arrest. Shelley Meyer encouraged her to press charges and she wouldn’t.
The police investigated and also did not press
You have heard only one side- the side of someone who is going public only after her income source has dried up.
I would think you would like to hear what Zach Smith has to say and what Meyer had to say.
If you watch Urbans comments specifically he says “when we looked into 2015 there was nothing there”.
He also mentions “ what was reported is not what happened “.
I get the feeling there is a he said- she said aspect to this- so in that case what do you do?
"If you lie, you can never coach again."Former Baylor coach Art Briles, who was fired in the wake of the university's sexual assault scandal in 2016, has been hired to coach an American football team in Italy.
Hmmm. Wonder what self-righteous sanctimonious weasel said that? I wonder.
Bravo MDot.yeah, I don't get it.
The days of being complicit, or turning a blind eye, should be over.
The only way to end corruption in society is to report it and to stamp it out.
It's hard to stomach some of the comments in here.
Almost sounds to me like if you see a guy showering with a bunch of teenage boys, you should just mind your own business.
If you know there's a guy on your staff that's beating the hell out of his wife, it's none of your business.
It's a pathetic sentiment and weak integrity.
No. Spoken like a true person who has ZERO tolerance for women beating pieces of shit like Zach Smith.Good lord get over yourself. Read the whole thread
What you just wrote is spoken like a true fan who puts winning above morality.
There is ZERO chance that Urban didn't know this piece of human shit was beating on his wife. And he continued to give him cover and employ him.
3 years later Urban Meyer is asked about the 2015 incident, and replies he is unaware of a 2015 incident because there wasn't one.It gets even mushier here. Not illegal and maybe not necessarily fireable, but probably still a lie. Because not knowing about an event report isn't the same as not knowing about an event.
Good lord get over yourself. Read the whole threadI think you are the one who needs to read up on the situation at hand.
Putting winning above morality?
What gives you the right to play god? You have at best- one side of the story and half the facts
If it turns out that ther is only one side- you won’t get any arguments from me.
But everyone is entitled to a fair discovery. Even the coach that has been beating your teams ass like a rented mule.
I think you are the one who needs to read up on the situation at hand.I am not going to argue with you
There are text messages from Shelley Meyer, text messages from other coaches wives on that staff, text messages that piece of shit Zach Smith sent her threatening her, and photos of the abuse. All documented
The guy was just arrested for violating a restraining order she had put out against him. You can't get a restraining order in Ohio unless you can prove that the person is a serious threat against you.
This psycho installed hidden cameras in her house to spy on her. The Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that police were called 9 times on him by her in the 6 years.
Get over YOURSELF.
This PIECE OF SHIT was beating her ass for 9 years and Urban Meyer knew about it and he still kept him employed all because he was a close friend of the family. Fuck Zach Smith. Fuck Urban Meyer for keeping him employed, and fuck ANYONE who defends either of these despicable excuses of human being.
It gets even mushier here. Not illegal and maybe not necessarily fireable, but probably still a lie. Because not knowing about an event report isn't the same as not knowing about an event.What he said was that when they looked into it now- there was nothing there. It has already been reported that there was no arrest and smiths name was redacted from the police report- so in other words the authorities do not have enough to even press charges. Now why do you think that is?
What he said was that when they looked into it now- there was nothing there. It has already been reported that there was no arrest and smiths name was redacted from the police report- so in other words the authorities do not have enough to even press charges. Now why do you think that is?They need a cooperative witness to press charges, and the wife's mother told her daughter to not press charges as it would hurt the family financially.
Meyers wife employed her to press charges. Why?
Lastly/ was their a risk of false termination at that point?
What he said was that when they looked into it now- there was nothing there. It has already been reported that there was no arrest and smiths name was redacted from the police report- so in other words the authorities do not have enough to even press charges. Now why do you think that is?I guess all those photos she has where he beat her are just photoshopped?
Meyers wife employed her to press charges. Why?
Lastly/ was their a risk of false termination at that point?
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0091/7782/5338/products/sdfsdfdfdf_158bb13f-0ac3-4ca1-8bac-ea3ed1e28147_480x.JPG?v=1533216831)I saw that elsewhere. Probably need to take that one off the racks at the bookstore.
I'm all for waiting for all the facts, but based on what has been made public, it's really difficult to believe Urban Meyer had zero knowledge of this situation. It's very interesting that some are more prone to rush to the defense of a football coach, asking for him to be protected and less worried about a woman who was clearly beat for a long period of time.I think it is more interesting that fans of a certain school are the ones who seem to be rushing to judgement- and the same ones who characterize my call for at least getting the other side of the story as defending something so atrocious. Not a coincidence.
Urban has a history of being a liar. If that can't be acknowledged, there's a lot of heads in the sand.
I saw that elsewhere. Probably need to take that one off the racks at the bookstore.apparently, consumers took them ALL off the racks
I agree with this 100%.
Let’s just agree on the fact that a person who hits women and anyone who covers for them are POS/ as well as anyone who defends it.
The only thing we disagree on is whether a person accused of any of the above has a right to present their side and be heard.
Some day if you or someone you care about is falsely accused- you will feel different and understand how important a person’ right to defend themselves is.
Let's play nice fellas. It's what we do here.Condolences to your wife for what occurred to her.
This is a very touchy subject and can bring out anger and many other emotions. My wife was date raped in college, and to this day if I could ever find the guy, I'd... How's that for anger? It happened 15 years before I even met her. Fucking prick. I'll...
I think it is more interesting that fans of a certain school are the ones who seem to be rushing to judgement- and the same ones who characterize my call for at least getting the other side of the story as defending something so atrocious. Not a coincidence.So you're blaming my opinion on being a Michigan fan? Pretty weak response honestly. I've read a couple articles and listened to local, pro-buckeye radio stations on my way home from work yesterday and every radio presence said it looked bad for Urban.
It follows that that same fan base- when faced with media charges against their school- not only went into denial mode- but many still boycott that media outlet.
Lastly-where does it say thatUrban claimed to know nothing about this? He already clarified the 2009- and how it was reported to his superiors, and how and why he and his wife got involved.
He also said he did look into the 2015 claims and without giving out personal details about smith or his wife- concluded ther was nothing there- which does jive with the police report.
I think the odds are extremely high here- that Meyer learned enough to take more action than just play marriage counselor. But he at least deserves the investigation and opportunity to present his side
Anyone who doesn’t understand this has their head buried in the sand- and gives the appearance of being more concerned with winning than the human beings involved.
So you're blaming my opinion on being a Michigan fan? Pretty weak response honestly. I've read a couple articles and listened to local, pro-buckeye radio stations on my way home from work yesterday and every radio presence said it looked bad for Urban.What I am saying is- there only seems to be a couple posters here rushing to judgement.
When did he claim not to know about it? Well, at the Big Ten media day when he said last night was the first he heard of the 2015 incident. The played the audio on the radio. Texts from his wife to the victim clearly state that Urban doesn't know how he wants to handle it.
I'm not burn him at the stake guy as I'd like to hear more facts, but the facts that have been released and his public statements are pretty damning at minimum, that he blatantly lied when originally asked. For clarity, I'm not saying he should be fired for that alone.
I don't think it was his job to play marriage counselor, but the fact he continued to keep him on his staff along with his history says a lot. The people you choose to surround yourself over long periods of time say a lot about the person. Again, not a reason to fire someone, but a reason I can have an opinion on character.
And let's be clear since you want to say my personal opinion is solely because I'm a Michigan fan. I have disliked Urban Meyer since 2002. If we go to the WayBackMachine and dig up the collegefootballnews, I'm sure we can find some posts of me ranting about UM. I watched him lie to personal friends that played for him, only to watch him do the same to Utah players a couple years later, then have a team full of inmates running the asylum at Florida. The dude should call Tim Tebow every day for creating a distraction and making him look like a decent human being.
Hey guys. Anybody found Stingray yet? I miss that dude.Not sure if he made it over here or not.Bama Buckeye & Buckeye Crazy have been scarce also
They need a cooperative witness to press charges, and the wife's mother told her daughter to not press charges as it would hurt the family financially.I don't think that they do need a cooperative witness to press charges. An attorney from Ohio would be better at speaking to this but in Ohio there is a law that the Police are supposed to press charges in any DV situation if they feel that it occurred (or something to that effect). In practice, if the Police showed up and Smith's wife was visibly beat up, then under Ohio law the Police should have arrested Smith whether or not the wife wanted an arrest.
So, the wife's mother needs to be outed here too. The stupid bitch.
Meyer deserves his day in court- not today’s PC over the top lunch mob mentality.unfortunately, Meyer is gonna get both. Regardless of what he deserves.
I probably mis-spoke. I'm not a lawyer - I hate those. All of them. Every one of them.As hopefully a tolerable lawyer (to you at least), I would say, yes, it is highly unlikely. The scenario would almost certainly require direct eye witness testimony. Statutory construction can help illustrate why this is so.
Anyway, Isn't it highly unlikely they could get a conviction without a cooperative witness in a DV case?
Not sure if he made it over here or not.Bama Buckeye & Buckeye Crazy have been scarce alsoBummer about Stingray. I wish I had an email address or something. That guy was cool. I know Buckeye Crazy IRL, so I get to talk to her every now and again, when we have time. I used to like talking to Bama Buckeye on here...he was one of the Bucks who took a sharp turn on me when I voiced my opinion on Meyer-to-Buckeyes back in 2012 or whenever....but he's still okay in my book.
You caught me. I have been on the B12 board a bit lately. I didn't know anything about this until about noon today, saw somebody mention something on an LSU site and I didn't know what they were referring to, so I knew where to come to get the info from people who would know and be talking about it.
Damn. I wish it was something more than this thread that brought back so many old posters.
So how long until Urban finds himself on Nick Saban's staff?Say, a week after they back into the playoff after missing the SEC Championship game again?
Word that Dwan Mathis reached out to MSU about flipping back, and was told no.And sounds like he may have flipped to Oregon.
And sounds like he may have flipped to Oregon.first domino falls in recruiting. probably won't be the last.
What he said was that when they looked into it now- there was nothing there. It has already been reported that there was no arrest and smiths name was redacted from the police report- so in other words the authorities do not have enough to even press charges. Now why do you think that is?You press charges for generally two reasons most of the time (a lawyer can correct me on this)
Meyers wife employed her to press charges. Why?
Lastly/ was their a risk of false termination at that point?
LOLThough it’s objectively good to be nice to people – or at the very least to not be actively offensive – political correctness will never be a practical way to fix this about the world because its spirit of scolding is egotistical and off-putting, making it right for the wrong reason, which naturally causes the objects of its scolding to double down.
PC=Respect
I don't know anyone who doesn't demand respect, but keep whining about "PC".
"No, dammit! If I want to be an asshole to someone, disrespect them, and berate them, I should be allowed without the PC police! Wait...what did you say about 'guns and religion' you disrespecting a-hole?".
I love those who whine about "PC". Easy targets, because they're just as sensitive, if not more, than anyone else.
You press charges for generally two reasons most of the time (a lawyer can correct me on this)I've never seen a case charged based on a sense of conviction. (no offense to the remark) Going to trial? Now that requires the DA to look at the case again and evaluate the stakes. It is quite embarrassing, unethical and damaging to a DA's office to charge people with crimes which can't get past go. Go=probable cause. You only charge when you have PC. You don't have it (even with a sense of guilt by the defendant) you gotta go get it.
1. There is a sense a conviction can be achieved
2. They can be used to leverage a plea
Now just because I can’t convict someone (an especially big challenge in DV cases), doesn’t mean the thing didn’t happen. Before 1970, one could not rape their spouse in a legal sense. But you bet it could happen. And courts don’t aim to take on really long shot cases just because.
Innocent until proven guilty ends up being a rather narrow guiding principle. It just is. Innocent people can be put in pretrial jail for months on end until it’s easier to say they’re guilty to something lesser just to ease the financial burdan. Likewise, by its nature, it means many guilty people will not be found that way by any system.
You press charges for generally two reasons most of the time (a lawyer can correct me on this)That really resonates with my outlook. Guilt by judge and jury is a useful and sacred convention, but it isn't objective guilt. I fear how we'd recoil if we could learn the percentage of unconvicted, guilty people.
1. There is a sense a conviction can be achieved
2. They can be used to leverage a plea
Now just because I can’t convict someone (an especially big challenge in DV cases), doesn’t mean the thing didn’t happen. Before 1970, one could not rape their spouse in a legal sense. But you bet it could happen. And courts don’t aim to take on really long shot cases just because.
Innocent until proven guilty ends up being a rather narrow guiding principle. It just is. Innocent people can be put in pretrial jail for months on end until it’s easier to say they’re guilty to something lesser just to ease the financial burdan. Likewise, by its nature, it means many guilty people will not be found that way by any system.
A million dollar job and small fiefdom is a privilege, not a right. As Ramzy said, there was a longterm stink on Smith. Urban chose to keep that around. And that can always cost.
(Also, someone did a close listen to his big ten media day comment. An interesting detail was him kind of waiving off the 2009 thing as “they were a young couple.” This in reference to someone possibly being drunk and bouncing his pregnant wife off the wall. As a high-profile human, that in itself seems an issue)
unfortunately, Meyer is gonna get both. Regardless of what he deserves.The left eating itself. If you're not left enough, then you're on the right, somehow. It's all so broken, from politics to college football coaching.
today's PC over the top mob is very strong at Universities across the nation and they are allowed to have power and presence
So how long until Urban finds himself on Nick Saban's staff?Urban just became 'Next HC at ND'. Or LSU.
I've never seen a case charged based on a sense of conviction. (no offense to the remark) Going to trial? Now that requires the DA to look at the case again and evaluate the stakes. It is quite embarrassing, unethical and damaging to a DA's office to charge people with crimes which can't get past go. Go=probable cause. You only charge when you have PC. You don't have it (even with a sense of guilt by the defendant) you gotta go get it.Tips cap and defers to the expert.
Once a person is arrested (and in custody), that person must be brought before a judge or magistrate within 48 hours. At that point the State must produce a criminal complaint demonstrating there is a probable cause that the charging crime was committed (must identify the criminal statute) AND probable cause that it was committed by the defendant. This is typically presented on a few pages, describes the who what when and where, and it must be signed by some sworn official (usually a law enforcement officer, or prosecutor (sometimes a game warden). If they can't do this, the person is released from custody immediately. If State can get to this stage later, they can summon the person, or issue an arrest warrant. (This is common in DV, when a victim comes forward a day or few days later).
It is at this time the person is read the charges, right to atty, etc. Then bail is determined. A case like this, probably not cash bail, but certainly all kinds of no contact conditions. Defendant signs signature bond, leaves, comes back for next appearance (arraignment), where they formally plead NG (usually). In between Bail Hearing and Arraignment, this is the likeliest time the Defendant and DA discuss any plea bargain, if any is offered. This is also when the DA typically learns whether or not the Victim is A. reliable, and B. going to testify. You can count on the Defendant telling his/her lawyer, 'she ain't going to talk'. Again, defense counsel stressed on this point too. Who's for real?
Plea bargains in DV and OWI cases are extremely closely examined by DAs office, every women's group in the public, MAAD, etc. In any other non-violent crime, yes, plea bargains are valuable tools of efficiency, supported by both sides of the bar, and the courts. What are you really pleading 'down' to, when you have a unreliable witness in a misdemeanor battery case. Criminal Disorderly Conduct is a 'fav' of the State.
#For sake of discussion, let's assume the charges are misdemeanor, and not felonies (which would require either an indictment by a grand jury (filing of an 'Information') or a preliminary hearing (a mini probable cause hearing). That's where a defendant could very well be 'in custody' because there's cash bail which they can't post, for an extended period of time, but of course, they could exercise their right to a speedy trial. That means the Preliminary Hearing has to take place in 10 days, with trail to follow 20 days later. Majority of DV cases are charged as simple battery. Substantial battery (felony assault) would bring all of this into play. A plea bargain at this level, is incredibly scrutinized, only signed off on by Deputy or above, and usually not w/o full support of the Victim Witness Coordinator.
Some information or disinformation about the victim is getting out there that makes her sound bat sh!t crazy. Not sure how The OSU is going to handle it but it's going to take a while. Like weeks if not months.I'm highly, highly, skeptical of these claims.
Though it’s objectively good to be nice to people – or at the very least to not be actively offensive – political correctness will never be a practical way to fix this about the world because its spirit of scolding is egotistical and off-putting, making it right for the wrong reason, which naturally causes the objects of its scolding to double down.I think we’re at a point where it’s sometimes hard to get a handle on exactly what PC means anymore. At best, it’s sort of a frenzied call to action/shaming oft attributed vaguely to one part of the political spectrum (trying to avoid full-on politics, should delete if I stray)
We deserve a more humble formula than “HOW DARE YOU, and now that I’ve stolen your attention, guess who also knows the best way for you to live?” Because even if the person saying HOW DARE YOU is correct about something that really matters, their style comprehensively fails. (...) Turns out that "It's not what you say but how you say it" wasn't just a lesson for toddlers.
Unfortunately, the schism between these two sides has become one of the most entrenched aspects of modern western identity and has fueled a sizable chunk of our current volatilty. And tragically, these fights that seem so meaty and essential are usually empty. I.E.: there are good people on the non-PC side who aren't being offensive for offensiveness's sake but rather to spite the PCers for thinking they had the right to be so sanctimonious about anything in the first place.
As for me, I'll admit I lean progressive on most matters, but I see PCness as a sickness and believe that finding a more patient and non-judgy way to express that "being a dick is fine if you're into that but actually, man, just try not to" is one of the most important upcoming social revolutions.
PCness has become a political crowbar. Maybe it always was.The weird part is un-PCness has evolved into a far more effective one.
It’s a bit disingenuous to say we have one side of the story with the text messages and pictures, unless you believe they are made up. Urban’s wife, the Director of Football Ops wife all allude to the disgusting behavior of an absuive spouse, on top of those text messages stating it’s a known thing amongst the coaches. Heck, Zach smith’s own text even acknowledged it by saying he had sought treatment for it, followed by saying he would destroy her.Disingenuous? I find that point of view more than a little bit troubling
Urban knew. Just last week at media days he said he and his wife discuss everything. He brought her to help counsel Smith and his wife while in Florida for the 09 issues. Should we also ignore the Cleveland paper noting the multiple times police came to the home.
That is one persistent scheme by a spouse with no real end game, until now. Courtney dragged the family through a 9!! year conspiratorial plot to bring her husband through the mud just now. All in the name of losing the income source for her and her family. I have trouble reconciling that.
And to push the no charges thing after all we have elarn d about domestic violence is sad. I wonder why the wife of coaching legends grandson, in a football crazed town wouldn’t pursue a very public court process? Note, he is the sole income earner for the family at $400+k a year. Take a look at the comments about her photos on brett mcmurpjy’s Facebook page and tell me why she wouldn’t have reported sooner.
https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/1024703004849532928?s=12 (https://twitter.com/slmandel/status/1024703004849532928?s=12)
Let’s not lose site of who the abuser was (Zach Smith) but a lot of individuals are to blame for where this has landed in the last week.
That's right. Everything hinges on whether Meyer reported up. I might add one more caveat, though, and that is if he didn't report up because he says he never knew**, then that wouldn't clear his responsibility either, because it was his job to know things like this.Well said. I would further add the question of “what” he knew- so in other words, how much things were filtered to him.
**(this is probably just a silly 0.01% scenario, since none of us seem to be able to fathom how he wouldn't know)
At the 11 minute mark she also contradicts herself as she sure as shit shared it with Shelley Meyer(pictures,texts).She put financial stability in front of the best interests of her children both emotionally/physically.
If you watch the tape of her interview around 11 minute mark you’ll notice that she admitted that for a very long time she did not share the physical part of the booths with anybody because she was embarrassed and I understand that sentiment.
I think we’re at a point where it’s sometimes hard to get a handle on exactly what PC means anymore. At best, it’s sort of a frenzied call to action/shaming oft attributed vaguely to one part of the political spectrum (trying to avoid full-on politics, should delete if I stray)It's a fair and standing question.
At it’s historical root, it seems like a brand of seeing the world, usually trying to see it for the better and not trying to hurt others (maybe certain others?), but delivered in a holier than thou way. The opposite not-PC was something to be indulged in, mirthfullness about the world that was somehow self-satisfying.
But the thing is, everyone has feelings and gets offended about different things. There’s certainly some stuff that is objectively “politically correct” that some “un-PC” folks will get very offended by. Hopefully we find a way to turn down the vitriol. (Lord knows, sports fans are among the most finely sensitive humans imaginable. We’re all not that different)
Now let’s turn to this case: what’s PC here is ... at its root what? Is it the idea that hitting a women and supporting is so explosive it should cost people dearly?(probably not based on that wall at OSU) Is it the believing the woman at all at face value? Or is it the speed and the way it turns to 11 so fast? I suppose the root would be that believing someone who says they got hit is “PC” and the un-PC thing would be to ask, are there a lot of women who fabricate these things?
Or is it that PC has become a catchall for a kind of frenzy that links to a sort of vague sense of impropriety?
Some information or disinformation about the victim is getting out there that makes her sound bat sh!t crazy. Not sure how The OSU is going to handle it but it's going to take a while. Like weeks if not months.I suspected someone would bring this up eventually. I touched on it far upthread, as far as the mother (bitch) talking her into staying for money and all that crap. So yes, she stayed and she seems a little "off" on camera, but that doesn't make her "bat shit crazy" or anything close to it.
HB - I'm not sure why you thought I was taking shots or my post was directed at you, but it certainly wasn't. I was more commenting on the segment of fans that are saying this has nothing to do with football so there should be no accountability. I simply don't agree with that. Head coaches, paid millions of dollars, should be the example as they are leaders of men at a time that is often life shaping.On this we agree. It has everything to do with football and all coaches at that level bate certsin responsibilities. If he did not live up to them- and at this point that is how it appears- he needs to be fired.
My second point was that Urban has a history of being untruthful. He was untruthful at BG, untruthful at Utah and seems it has been a trend. Ignoring that was where my head in the sand comment originated, but again, not directed at you, moreso at the fans I'm surrounded by that think he walks on water on Sundays, after he wins on Saturdays.
Good to see some familiar faces here. We had our second child in May, which has kept us really busy and eliminated any free time, but we're less than a month away and maybe I'm sneaking in a couple extra bathroom breaks to talk some football.
I suspected someone would bring this up eventually. I touched on it far upthread, as far as the mother (bitch) talking her into staying for money and all that crap. So yes, she stayed and she seems a little "off" on camera, but that doesn't make her "bat shit crazy" or anything close to it.I have a huge issue with people calling her out for staying for the money or calling her crazy. When you are a parent, you make decisions in attempts to provide for your children as well as possible. Often the abused stay with an abuser for the betterment of their children, thinking they can handle the abuse so the kids have a better life.
If she was truly crazy, she would not have gained custody of the children - as in any. So yeah, disinformation for sure.
I have a huge issue with people calling her out for staying for the money or calling her crazy. When you are a parent, you make decisions in attempts to provide for your children as well as possible. Often the abused stay with an abuser for the betterment of their children, thinking they can handle the abuse so the kids have a better life.Are you talking to me? I think you are not quite understanding my post, because I 100 percent agree with you.
And yes, maybe she is mentally off. Have you ever known anyone that has gone through abuse? They've been through a ton mentally and sometimes there memory, stories and reasoning don't add up. Remember, they are a victim, not someone deserving of abuse.
At the 11 minute mark she also contradicts herself as she sure as shit shared it with Shelley Meyer(pictures,texts).She put financial stability in front of the best interests of her children both emotionally/physically.I endured years of a horrible marriage because I was scared of the financial implications of divorce. I'm sure my ex endured years of a horrible marriage because she was concerned her free ride would end. In fact, one of the things that precipitated the divorce was when I discovered she was on dating sites, I found messages to her best friend where she was saying she wanted a divorce but she was scared that she couldn't support herself and was terrified about getting a job.
I endured years of a horrible marriage because I was scared of the financial implications of divorce. I'm sure my ex endured years of a horrible marriage because she was concerned her free ride would end. In fact, one of the things that precipitated the divorce was when I discovered she was on dating sites, I found messages to her best friend where she was saying she wanted a divorce but she was scared that she couldn't support herself and was terrified about getting a job.Again, she wanted out and was talked into staying in.
Now, there was no abuse, or anything like that. It was just two people that didn't belong together. But clearly we were both putting financial stability in front of our own emotional health.
Can you imagine Courtney Smith's position? Her husband was making a LOT of money. She was making none. She absolutely didn't want him fired. She was scared of what would happen to her, to her kids, if their income source dried up. People will put themselves through all sorts of horrible things due to fear. For her, things finally boiled up to 2015 when she actually divorced him, and that was probably best for both of them. Not sure how it works in Ohio for child support, but she was probably still getting financial support and didn't have to expose herself to the continued abuse. That should have been the end of it, but he couldn't just walk away. Despite being divorced he allegedly threatened her again while dropping off their kids, which precipitated the protection order and all of this coming out.
Good to see some familiar faces here. We had our second child in May, which has kept us really busy and eliminated any free time, but we're less than a month away and maybe I'm sneaking in a couple extra bathroom breaks to talk some football.Congrats Mario
Again, she wanted out and was talked into staying in.I'm not sure of anything right now.She also claimed that Earle Bruce supposedly drove down to Fla in 2009 to convince her not to divorce him.I mean really,your grown up sort it out.Conveniently she says all this after Smith is fired and Earle is dead.Is this motivated by her alimony/child support being affected - when she had years to air all this out but comes out now?Beginning to think the only victims here are the children.
Are you talking to me? I think you are not quite understanding my post, because I 100 percent agree with you.Poor use of the word "you." I wasn't directing at you, but saying general population using the word "you." Clearly my forum writing skills need to be polished. I need to stop by more often.
What I don't agree with is her mother pressuring her to stay. The woman wanted out, regardless of money, and her mother wouldn't accept that. Shame on her mother for not backing her child's position and desires. Money isn't everything, and had she left the asshole, he'd probably still be working and paying child support anyway.
Can you imagine Courtney Smith's position? Her husband was making a LOT of money. She was making none. She absolutely didn't want him fired. She was scared of what would happen to her, to her kids, if their income source dried up.Yes but she quotes Earle Bruce after he's dead.And then she goes guns blazing to McMurphy after the fact.If she kept all those photos and the Police Dept has her calls/reports on record then she has recourse.She needs to sue her ex,seems she's might be dragging tOSU and Urbz maybe for a payday in court.I'm no lover of UFM or Shelly seems like a lot of flip-flopping.If they're guilty let them swing
I'm not sure of anything right now.She also claimed that Earle Bruce supposedly drove down to Fla in 2009 to convince her not to divorce him.I mean really,your grown up sort it out.Conveniently she says all this after Smith is fired and Earle is dead.Is this motivated by her alimony/child support being affected - when she had years to air all this out but comes out now?Beginning to think the only victims here are the children.A lot....I mean A LOT of adults are not grown-up emotionally. And that's just the baseline....once they're victims of abuse, then they're REALLY not.
'Fro,Great, then we can move on. Oh wait, no we can't - there's a celebrity involved!!!
The abuser isn't being talked about because he's been fired and is not working - probably never will again - unless he grabs a shovel.
If she was truly crazy, she would not have gained custody of the children - as in any. So yeah, disinformation for sure.Unfortunately that isn't true. It's almost impossible for fathers to get anything better than 50/50, and that's a tough feat to pull off, no matter how crazy she is, absent being an actual physical threat to the children. And considering his history, no matter how crazy she is, she's probably better than he is.
I'm all for waiting for all the facts, but based on what has been made public, it's really difficult to believe Urban Meyer had zero knowledge of this situation. It's very interesting that some are more prone to rush to the defense of a football coach, asking for him to be protected and less worried about a woman who was clearly beat for a long period of time.I am curious why is defending the football coach mean they are not worried about the woman. These things are not mutually exclusive and is used by people all the time to shut down their "opponents". You don't want a tax hike for schools, you must not care about the children, etc. Come on, at least be fair when you criticize.
Urban has a history of being a liar. If that can't be acknowledged, there's a lot of heads in the sand.
Unfortunately that isn't true. It's almost impossible for fathers to get anything better than 50/50, and that's a tough feat to pull off, no matter how crazy she is, absent being an actual physical threat to the children. And considering his history, no matter how crazy she is, she's probably better than he is.Well, one of my closest friends got sole custody because his wife was nuts. Maybe things are different in Illinois from where you practice.
What I don't agree with is her mother pressuring her to stay. The woman wanted out, regardless of money, and her mother wouldn't accept that. Shame on her mother for not backing her child's position and desires. Money isn't everything, and had she left the asshole, he'd probably still be working and paying child support anyway.She did leave him. Filed for divorce in late 2015 (after this incident), finalized in 2016.
Unfortunately that isn't true. It's almost impossible for fathers to get anything better than 50/50, and that's a tough feat to pull off, no matter how crazy she is, absent being an actual physical threat to the children. And considering his history, no matter how crazy she is, she's probably better than he is.Lawyer Friend can confirm this.
She did leave him. Filed for divorce in late 2015 (after this incident), finalized in 2016.Informative post. I didn't know that sequence.
https://247sports.com/Article/Ohio-State-Buckeyes-Urban-Meyer-Timeline-of-alleged-abuse-leading-to-Zach-Smiths-firing-120302532/
2 years later, he threatens her again, comes onto her property against her will [charged with criminal trespass], and this causes there to be a protective order.
Maybe her mom gave bad advice. But a few months later, Courtney made the right decision and left him regardless.
This would all have gone away, likely forever, if Smith hadn't provoked the situation in May and gotten a protective order placed against him. As you say, he'd still be working and paying child support anyway.
As I said up thread Gene could be in deep kimchiRight. Gene is not making this decision. (Oh) Gee is no longer in Columbus.
Informative post. I didn't know that sequence.There's more to it than just that. It goes back to 2009, when her mother and Urbie's life coach convinced her to stay with the POS.
Gene Smith hired Dan McCarney as the head coach at Iowa State with his own domestic abuse arrest when Smith was there, so it wouldn't be out of character for Smith to ignore that red flag.Gene's new boss is rumoredly much more serious than his old one.
Is Gene Smith gonna be in trouble? Local Radio reports coming out that Urban reported other incidents concerning Zach and Courtney to Gene & Title 9 Office.My understanding:
Also several Layers coming out saying since Courtney Smith isn't a student or employee of the University she isn't protected by Title 9. OSU has a seperate Sexual Abuse code of Conduct (Handled by the Title 9 Office) that should be considered.
I am curious why is defending the football coach mean they are not worried about the woman. These things are not mutually exclusive and is used by people all the time to shut down their "opponents". You don't want a tax hike for schools, you must not care about the children, etc. Come on, at least be fair when you criticize.So a large segment of the people who are defending UM are also talking about protecting the well being of the woman (aka the victim?) C'mon man, be realistic. You're right, they are mutually exclusive, but you're telling me you don't see the segment of people defending meyer and trying to dig up dirt on this woman to smear her name and character?
Is Gene Smith gonna be in trouble? Local Radio reports coming out that Urban reported other incidents concerning Zach and Courtney to Gene & Title 9 Office.I have no idea of the veracity of this information so I do not vouch for it. I didn't even hear it myself, I'm just quoting @TyphonInc (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=8) .
So a large segment of the people who are defending UM are also talking about protecting the well being of the woman (aka the victim?) C'mon man, be realistic. You're right, they are mutually exclusive, but you're telling me you don't see the segment of people defending meyer and trying to dig up dirt on this woman to smear her name and character?First:
I get your analogy with taxes and schools but this is not that.
So a large segment of the people who are defending UM are also talking about protecting the well being of the woman (aka the victim?) C'mon man, be realistic. You're right, they are mutually exclusive, but you're telling me you don't see the segment of people defending meyer and trying to dig up dirt on this woman to smear her name and character?well, there's no need to bring the victim's character into the argument regarding Meyer. The woman was assaulted more than once. There's enough proof of that.
That said, if it is true that Urban reported this to Gene and Title 9 office, Urban should be reinstated within a week. In the long run that might be worse for Ohio State, but it should put Urban in the clear, no?If that's the case, why did they put him on administrative leave?
The poor battered woman is no part of that what so ever.ff this story has lots of tenacles,she didn't press charges for what 7 years.Then didn't want him to get fired either as she had Zack on the line for alimony/child support.Urban finally cans him and he's at fault.I'm sure more will come out.The kids could have used better parenting that is for sure
If that's the case, why did they put him on administrative leave?If I were Urban Meyer, no I wouldn't be saying anything in public. I'd be talking to my attorney.
Money-wise, Urban is INCREDIBLY valuable to the university. Don't you think it would make sense to come out and say "Urban did what he was required to do, and we had failures in our Title IX office that we need to learn how to fix."
That kills the PR cycle. Nobody cares of someone who heads up the Title IX office is scalped over this. Or even OSU's president. They care if the head coach is scalped.
I realize none of those people above him want to fall on their sword, but if Urban reported this up, don't you think he'd be saying so to protect himself from being thrown under the bus?
if Urban reported this up, don't you think he'd be saying so to protect himself from being thrown under the bus?Just a hunch but I'm thinking that's what has happened
well, that letter is a positive sign Urban may keep his positionAgreed. I'm not saying I trust it, I don't. Urban obviously has a self-serving motivation to claim he reported but claiming it in a VERY public way would be beyond stupid if it were not true.
Did Urban lie to his bosses and do they want to fire him for that? It's a title IX thing and the feds have to be considered. The rest of the stories are all window dressing.The radio stuff I heard said he reported "other" incidents the Smith's had. But he did not report the 2015 redacted police report one (the one he claims he didn't know about.)
Though it’s objectively good to be nice to people – or at the very least to not be actively offensive – political correctness will never be a practical...Man, this thing is moving fast.
Says he never physically abused her.never? Not even in 2009?
never? Not even in 2009?He characterized everything as "restraining" her
Man, this thing is moving fast.I'm with you there. Also: a little agreeable sidetrack here is probably healthy. Keeps us calm and thoughtful.
Just wanted to agree with you a bit here, and I believe that being "PC" can be taken too far.
I think I left of center, but the right is so far right I look liberal, but that's another area.
Sorry for the side track, but really, the only thing affecting me about this debate, is what recruiting will be like after.
So my thoughts are:If not fireable then, why fireable now? The only aspect that changed was publicity.
- Urbs was entirely too flippant about what he said to the media
- There doesn't appear to be any sort of cover up - Urban wasn't hiding allegations of domestic violence
- Whether he should have been fired earlier is dicey - on one hand obviously yes! OTOH if everything is reported to the school and to the police, and everyone signs off that everything is ok, why not keep him?
Remaining questions
- What did Urbs and Shelley talk about?
- What did athletic department do about this?
It is a complicated statement. If true, then he reported it. But also if true, he lied in his presser ... and kept employing Smith beyond 2015 anyway, ostensibly because it wasn't public yet, so no big deal.Well summed up. The part that rubs me the wrong way is he blatantly lied in the presser and kind of shrugging it off by talking his principles and his parents.
If not fireable then, why fireable now? The only aspect that changed was publicity.Urbs already said publicity was a reason he was fired.
It is a complicated statement. If true, then he reported it. But also if true, he lied in his presser ... and kept employing Smith beyond 2015 anyway, ostensibly because it wasn't public yet, so no big deal.If he reported it, IMHO he's in the clear.
If not fireable then, why fireable now? The only aspect that changed was publicity.Not true. May 2018, after the divorce was final for almost 2 years, he gets charged for criminal trespass and she takes out the restraining order. That was new information this summer, and suggested that he couldn't even be divorced without abusing her.
did Ohio State start fall camp today like the Huskers and some others?Yes, today, as planned. What wasn’t originally planned was the practice being closed to the media & fans. What could’ve prompted that sudden change?
Of do they start later?
Urbs already said publicity was a reason he was fired.I know. My goal with that comment was to express something incongruous.
Not true. May 2018, after the divorce was final for almost 2 years, he gets charged for criminal trespass and she takes out the restraining order. That was new information this summer, and suggested that he couldn't even be divorced without abusing her.A very good point. But unless I missed it, that isn't the point Meyer made.
I could see new President just saying screw it all, and saying you’re fired to a number of individuals. Especially with the wrestling scandal also on his lap.He is saying that he told Zack that if I find out you did hitter you’re gone. I’m not sure what the final resolution is or should be but on a personal level I am happy to know that he did not hide it from the University or try to cover it up. Not being honest with the media I’m almost willing to give him bonus points for that since that is not necessarily a bad thing in my eyes
Urban reported it up. But he still lied to the media and kept an abuser on staff. In the work of big time college football Head Coaches fire assistant coaches for looking the wrong way. He didn’t need a reason. He could have fired Zach for his idiocy on twitter and calling out other coaches like the Huskers assistant. But he kept him. Fireable for Urban?? Maybe not; but it still looks AWFUL. He is now stating he knew it all, but kept him.
Gene is a goner.
This thing was really well managed by Ohio State for 48 hours with the paid leave and clear and decisive statements, as well as the well constructed investigative body.
Now it’s the Wild West with individuals running to their PR corners and going into full blown personal CYA mode.
Per Zach Smith, Urbs said "If I find out you hit her, I swear to God you're done. You're fired."Yup that's exactly what Smith said,pretty straight forward.Went on to say it was a domestic dispute and URBZ is a football coach not a police investigator - something along those lines
In any event, I think Meyer is in keepable shape now. OTOH, I feel like Gene is ... kind of effed.That wouldn't surprise me at all
Yup that's exactly what Smith said,pretty straight forward.Went on to say it was a domestic dispute and URBZ is a football coach not a police investigator - something along those linesyeah except Brett McMurphy released text chains right after Zach Smith's interview with ESPN and a radio interview he did with a Columbus radio station aired that pretty much contradicts everything Smith claims where he apologizes for abusing her.
The “just stay away” is something UM should text Zach as well. I don’t think his support for Urban helps right now.there is just too much damning evidence in these text chains for me to believe a word Smith or Urban says. Unless they are completely faked or photoshopped- which I doubt- considering McMurphy is a solid reporter and would get his ass handed to him in lawsuits if they were faked.
The rest of the country should probably wait for your unrivaled intelligence to comment on the toxic relationship before our less evolved collective cognitive ability once more leads us to jump to unreasonable conclusions & make stupendously absurd comments.Meyer should've fired him the second Shelley Meyer told him what was going on. In all honesty he never should've hired him in the first place because he is a terrible WR's coach.
What was tOSU supposed to do? Seriously? Sealed records and a spouse who wouldn't press charges. Come on man. They fired Smith as soon as they should have.
Per Zach Smith, Urbs said "If I find out you hit her, I swear to God you're done. You're fired."I don’t believe that. Meyer’s wife had pictures of the injuries. Urby knew he was hitting her. Smith is trying to fall on the sword for a guy who gave him the biggest break of his life.
I don’t believe that. Meyer’s wife had pictures of the injuries. Urby knew he was hitting her. Smith is trying to fall on the sword for a guy who gave him the biggest break of his life.Agreed. Aren’t there also texts that Shelley sends that say urban doesn’t know what to do? Not really a response of someone passionate about defending a beaten woman.
Meyer should've fired him the second Shelley Meyer told him what was going on. In all honesty he never should've hired him in the first place because he is a terrible WR's coach.Amen to the never hiring part!
She clearly didn't want him fired was it a bad marriage - sure it was.She obviously didn't feel threatened enough to move on from the financial situation.You can't read these rags written by rubes and accept them as gospel fact.But Smith was right about one thing Meyer is not an investigator and was warned by him.Why did she wait if it was so traumatic?She was willing to take the coin and deal with the BS.And one thing Smith could do was recruit - that's why he was kept around.Hell every day the media slanders people and ruins reps but somehow thinks they are entitled to unfettered facts while intruding on peoples personal lives.Meyer obviously should have prepared himself for some slippery insights during media days and tripped over his own tongue.I'm far from his staunchest supporter but way too many malletheads were grabbing pitchforks,shovels and torches before ink had even dried on the storyLook, I kinda feel bad for Meyer here. And before anyone jumps on me, yes, I feel worse for Courtney Smith so save your shock and horror.
again why wait so long unless there are other motives that she may not wish to share or air out.Should have came out guns blazing at the time of trauma.Why did she have police/court records sealed?That's bullshit if you make room for one sides excuse then you better make room on the couch for the others.she was still married at the time and he was the sole income earner for the family. An income that was north of $400,000 a year. That's a lot of money living in Ohio. Won't get ya far in South Florida or LA or NYC, but you can live really comfy in a nice ole big house with an affordable mortgage in Ohio. Could get a fricken mansion for $850,000 there- $850k will buy you a shoebox in SoFLa, LA, or NYC.
Look, I kinda feel bad for Meyer here. And before anyone jumps on me, yes, I feel worse for Courtney Smith so save your shock and horror.I'll save the shock and horror - you can save the your Jesus and I'm jack the Ripper take.Your right about one thing Meyer wanted them to settle their own problems.Hope it goes to court
If the weight of evidence is so overwhelming she should have went for the jugular right there.Financially every divorce I've seen has favored the women/children and rightfully so in most cases.Unless the guy can prove otherwise.Courtney doesn't walk away with empty pockets far from itVictims of abuse rarely act this way because of what they’ve gone through mentally and emotionally. I’m not saying this is definitely the case, but I’ve heard way too many arguments lately about how victims of abuse should have done more.
Powell police are refusing to release records of a 2015 incident in which Zach Smith’s then-wife (http://www.dispatch.com/sports/20180724/ohio-state-football--powell-police-called-to-home-of-wife-of-fired-assistant-coach-twice-in-2015) accused him of assaulting her. Public-records experts say those files should be open to the public under Ohio law.
However,the cover pages of the report taken Oct. 26, (http://www.dispatch.com/sports/20180724/ohio-state-football--powell-police-called-to-home-of-wife-of-fired-assistant-coach-twice-in-2015) which were released, note injuries to Smith’s wife, and that a kitchen knife, broken iPhone and two small USB drives were taken as evidence from Courtney Smith’s home.
Open-records experts argue that unless a case is being “actively investigated” it is considered closed, and that Mr. Smith already has been identified by city officials through other public records and in media reports.
“If they (police) haven’t done anything in a couple of years, then they should release the case file,” said Dennis Hetzel, executive director of the Ohio News Media Association. “It’s obvious who the uncharged suspect is. I think it’s kind of disingenuous on their part to withhold it.”
The city maintains the suspect “was investigated and believed to have committed an offense, but was not charged/arrested,” according to Megan Canavan, city spokeswoman.
Delaware County Prosecutor Carol O’Brien said she didn’t know why misdemeanor assault or other charges weren’t filed. She said she was disturbed by recent news accounts that Mrs. Smith might have been urged to drop charges at the time or to back off the allegations.
“It bothers me whenever a victim can be manipulated by anyone,” said O’Brien. “Any time you have a power imbalance — and yes, it’s often a woman — it bothers me tremendously.”
This from 11 Warriors - pretty interestingGood read and well handled by Eleven Warriors. What's most concerning is the trend of local police turning a blind eye to protect football programs. To be clear, this happens near every major program and is not remotely close to being an OSU only problem.
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/forum/site-stuff/2018/08/95003/how-we-handled-documents-related-to-zach-smiths-past
If Urban Meyer stays and, as one specific example, Gene Smith becomes the sacrificial lamb, does anyone really expect him to just fall on that sword in a tidy fashion?IF Urban goes, Gene Smith better go along with him! Two major head coaches out under his watch, no way would I keep him place!
I'll admit I know very little about him as a man. But his public persona seems kind of antithetical to taking one for the team.
IF Urban goes, Gene Smith better go along with him! Two major head coaches out under his watch, no way would I keep him place!What if Meyer stays because he reported up but Gene goes because he mismanaged his information and responsibilities?
I think i saw this somewhere, but can’t dig it up now.I am sure the politics of his relationships kept him around, and somewhat shielded. However, he was with Urban back in 09 and rehired to his staff at tOSU. I don't fault Urban for not canning the guy, maybe the truth is more neutral than we know, or maybe he was given enough rope over the course to hang himself with this last incident.
Zach Smith has hd his contract renewed / re-negotiated three different times in the last 5 years.
That’s what perplexes me. Assistant coaches get fired for calling one play wrong. For Smith, and knowing what they knew about his personal life, his social media antics, and his lack of player development; they didn’t even have to fire him. They could have non-renewed him three times, but didn’t.
I think i saw this somewhere, but can’t dig it up now.That's close to the center of my attention too. If he did something wrong (unlike his recent interview, Zach Smith does appear to completely fess up in published texts with Courtney) and we give the benefit of the doubt that it was properly reported by Meyer ... then why wasn't Zach fired (or at the very least not renewed) until it went public all these years later?
Zach Smith has hd his contract renewed / re-negotiated three different times in the last 5 years.
That’s what perplexes me. Assistant coaches get fired for calling one play wrong. For Smith, and knowing what they knew about his personal life, his social media antics, and his lack of player development; they didn’t even have to fire him. They could have non-renewed him three times, but didn’t.
What if Meyer stays because he reported up but Gene goes because he mismanaged his information and responsibilities?With enough money, I am sure he would go humbly. I always thought he should have been canned after the Tressel incident.
My post meant to doubt he'd go humbly.
I think for Urban it will all come down to whether he actually reported up, as he's suggested in his public letter.If he properly reported, I agree.
Originally, his remarks to the press looked BAD. But if he has evidence that this was reported properly and he can fall on the excuse of "I was blindsided by the question at media days and handled it badly, not wanting to drag their private matters into the public eye more than they already were."
So, the best case scenario consistent with the facts is what here?I think you've pretty much stated it. Best case is he reported but lied to the media.
Meyer reported what he was supposed to report up the chain but lied to the media. Anything else?
The worst case scenario is that he knew the situation, hired the guy, and didn't report and covered up the situation.
And I suppose there is something in between ...
I think for Urban it will all come down to whether he actually reported up, as he's suggested in his public letter.Do I have my info wrong? I thought we were past did Urban report or not.
Do I have my info wrong? I thought we were past did Urban report or not.Did it ever get reported beyond Gene Smith and Urban Meyer? What are OSU's guidelines on where it needs to be reported?
I thought I read the Powell Police sent the redacted report to Gene Smith Directly. Gene notified Urban, and called Smith back from a recruiting trip to ask him about it.
Smith claimed he only touched her in a defensive manner, she was the one attacking him.
Did it ever get reported beyond Gene Smith and Urban Meyer? What are OSU's guidelines on where it needs to be reported?It is a key distinction. Though even if handled internally, Meyer can probably stay IF GSmith takes the fall instead.
Or did they just "handle it" internally?
Because if it's the latter, I think his goose is still cooked.
Also, if you believe McMurphy (and though his anecdotes are secondhand and he has a self-interest like anyone, still comes off as one of the most credible narrators of the story as everything is documented and none of the documents are anonymous):Which is an important part of this overall story. Especially for the "victim-blaming" folks who seem to keep finding ways to suggest that Courtney is crazy/vindictive, or is making this up, etc etc.
Zach fessed up in published texts with Courtney to have strangled her among other abuses.
It is a key distinction. Though even if handled internally, Meyer can probably stay IF GSmith takes the fall instead.Maybe. I'm not so sure though that he'd be able to avoid it, EVEN if Gene takes the fall.
Which is an important part of this overall story. Especially for the "victim-blaming" folks who seem to keep finding ways to suggest that Courtney is crazy/vindictive, or is making this up, etc etc.It's just that Courtney waited until Zach got the axe until she screamed "VICTIM" in the court of public opinion.IMO it just smacks of either vengenace/anger/payday.BTW according to McMurphy she tried to sell him the story.She could have gotten a comfortable settlement long ago.Their income was substantially more than the average American who get divorced everyday.So with this supposed weight of evidence why did she wait if the circumstances were already untenable,then silent after separation?Look it wouldn't bother me a bit if Meyer/G.Smith are sent packing.I'd just love to see this go to court
However, that part is not necessarily germane to what happens to Urban or others at OSU. Because while it is clear that they knew of some of the domestic violence allegations, they very likely did not know the full extent of it.
So, the best case scenario consistent with the facts is what here?Winner,lock the thread
Meyer reported what he was supposed to report up the chain but lied to the media. Anything else?
The worst case scenario is that he knew the situation, hired the guy, and didn't report and covered up the situation.
And I suppose there is something in between ...
It's just that Courtney waited until Zach got the axe until she screamed "VICTIM" in the court of public opinion.IMO it just smacks of either vengenace/anger/payday.BTW according to McMurphy she tried to sell him the story.She could have gotten a comfortable settlement long ago.Their income was substantially more than the average American who get divorced everyday.So with this supposed weight of evidence why did she wait if the circumstances were already untenable,then silent after separation?Look it wouldn't bother me a bit if Meyer/G.Smith are sent packing.I'd just love to see this go to courtBut she left him in 2015, and the divorce was finalized in 2016. It's not like she stuck by his side. She had left--and yes, was probably already getting substantial child support.
IF Urban goes, Gene Smith better go along with him! Two major head coaches out under his watch, no way would I keep him place!Ed Zacherey,they discussed this over on 11 Warriors.If two NC Winning HC's go down in flames during his watch,well then don't let the door hit ya Gene
But she left him in 2015, and the divorce was finalized in 2016. It's not like she stuck by his side. She had left--and yes, was probably already getting substantial child support.Exactly. Can't have it both ways. Can't say she wait for perfect timing to scream victim and she's crazy because she called 911 a ton in the same defense, which many are doing(not many in this forum, just many in general public).
Oh, and he got the axe as a DIRECT RESULT OF HIS OWN ACTIONS in May 2018, when he decided to get himself arrested for criminal trespass, and apparently do enough to get a protective order slapped on him.
That's why this just bubbled up. Had he learned to color within the lines of his divorce, and not CONTINUE to be a problem, he'd still have a job.
Oh, and he got the axe as a DIRECT RESULT OF HIS OWN ACTIONS in May 2018, when he decided to get himself arrested for criminal trespass, and apparently do enough to get a protective order slapped on him.I have no problem with any of that but since you or I don't have access the financial settlement - that could be open & fluid depending on pay raises - color me skeptical
That's why this just bubbled up. Had he learned to color within the lines of his divorce, and not CONTINUE to be a problem, he'd still have a job.
I have no problem with any of that but since you or I don't have access the financial settlement - that could be open & fluid depending on pay raises - color me skepticalThat's true; we don't know the details of the financial settlement. But I don't know what you're skeptical of?
IMO it just smacks of either vengeance/anger/payday.and what is wrong with any or all of those if the victim has been treated poorly?
quite a stretch, but it's possiblePossible, yes.
I just don't see how she actually benefits from any of this. What do you see as her motive that makes you "skeptical"?Plenty,why not come out with this when the divorce is final?Why ask McMurphy to pay her for an interview if she's simply trying to give her side at seemingly a strange time?Perhaps greasing the skids for a payday against The University or it's arrogant coach?There's a big assumption that Zach Smith is 100% of the marital problem,even if he's 70% of the problem that other 30% coming from a "victim" can be preemptive and provocative.I'm not certain on the Earle Bruce story from her driving all the way down to Florida to ask Courtney not to divorce or press charges - Really?Because unless Zach Smith confirms this Earle is presently unavailable for comment
Plenty,why not come out with this when the divorce is final?Why ask McMurphy to pay her for an interview if she's simply trying to give her side at seemingly a strange time?It's really not a strange time. Ex-husband fired in very high profile position. Reporters (McMurphy) start digging, find out about the reason for the firing and then continue digging, by going to Courtney for the "dirt"
It's really not a strange time. Ex-husband fired in very high profile position. Reporters (McMurphy) start digging, find out about the reason for the firing and then continue digging, by going to Courtney for the "dirt"sound possible, maybe even likely.
This was probably not her idea in any way shape or form. This was triggered by the WR coach's firing. Not by an ex-wife with her hand out for $$$ or motivated by revenge.
1. Plenty,why not come out with this when the divorce is final?1. If she's dependent on his child support, coming out with this when the divorce is finalized not only punishes him [loses his job] but that lost job punishes her and her kids.
2. Why ask McMurphy to pay her for an interview if she's simply trying to give her side at seemingly a strange time?
3. Perhaps greasing the skids for a payday against The University or it's arrogant coach?
4. There's a big assumption that Zach Smith is 100% of the marital problem,even if he's 70% of the problem that other 30% coming from a "victim" can be preemptive and provocative.
Plenty,why not come out with this when the divorce is final?Why ask McMurphy to pay her for an interview if she's simply trying to give her side at seemingly a strange time?Perhaps greasing the skids for a payday against The University or it's arrogant coach?There's a big assumption that Zach Smith is 100% of the marital problem,even if he's 70% of the problem that other 30% coming from a "victim" can be preemptive and provocative.I'm not certain on the Earle Bruce story from her driving all the way down to Florida to ask Courtney not to divorce or press charges - Really?Because unless Zach Smith confirms this Earle is presently unavailable for commentPer a McMurphy interview, timing came because he got tipped off and reached out to her.
My statement would have been simple: Zach Smith is no longer with my staff, he has been released. I am not going to take questions related to this matter, it is a private matter at this point, and I am here to discuss the upcoming football season, the players, and games.It sure would have. PR is just not natural to most people.
Would have saved a lot of trouble!
Did it ever get reported beyond Gene Smith and Urban Meyer? What are OSU's guidelines on where it needs to be reported?I'm not so sure of that. In a practical sense, I think you are right because in a practical sense Gene Smith isn't really Urban's "Boss" in the normal sense. In the legal world of Urban's potential wrongful termination suit though, Gene is Urban's boss and that is all there is to it.
Or did they just "handle it" internally?
Because if it's the latter, I think his goose is still cooked.
That's the kind of judgment call that seems 100% tied to how strong they see Meyer's unlawful termination suitI was thinking the exact same thing.
Anyway maybe we should toss back some of your homebrews and hope for divine intervention:singing:
Dude,Sorry FF just repeating what some peeps at the World Wide Leader said Saturday.Anyway if tOSU is going to get a black eye I'd prefer a Pirate with a patch(Leach) to a Pope(Urban) - with a Pirate at least you know what ya have
Wasn't even her idea to talk to the media
was McMurphy who went to her
Sorry FF just repeating what some peeps at the World Wide Leader said Saturday.Anyway if tOSU is going to get a black eye I'd prefer a Pirate with a patch(Leach) to a Pope(Urban) - with a Pirate at least you know what ya haveThis isn't to rag on Urban but to brag on Leach: that's so true man.
Sorry FF just repeating what some peeps at the World Wide Leader said Saturday.Anyway if tOSU is going to get a black eye I'd prefer a Pirate with a patch(Leach) to a Pope(Urban) - with a Pirate at least you know what ya havesorry, I should be on the world wide leader
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2018/08/95015/powell-police-chief-explains-changes-in-offense-reports-says-zach-smith-was-never-arrested-in-2015 (https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2018/08/95015/powell-police-chief-explains-changes-in-offense-reports-says-zach-smith-was-never-arrested-in-2015)That story was interesting and informative. I have a hard time locking in on what it proved, but it did provide a more interesting picture.
Powell Police clarify police reports.
Allegedly- the only person who has seen one with the “arrest” box checked is McMurphy, but he has yet to produce it.
McMurphy,Anonymous Redditt poster,Urban,Z.Smith, C.Smith, the cops, and maybe Shelley Meyer are all in agreement that there was an incident of DV in 2015."Eleven Warriors obtained two offense reports from Powell Police regarding the incident – one from 2015 and the one that was also sent to McMurphy on July 24 – neither of which indicated that Zach was arrested. "
Urban said there was nothing there, but reported it to the proper folks in the Athletic department. there's where the questions start
That story was interesting and informative. I have a hard time locking in on what it proved, but it did provide a more interesting picture.Well, it was originally reported that Smith was arrested on felony domestic violence charges, and obviously that is false. Seems relevant to allegations that Urbs lied to everyone by denying it happened.
I also scrolled to the comments and man do I regret it.
Well, it was originally reported that Smith was arrested on felony domestic violence charges, and obviously that is false. Seems relevant to allegations that Urbs lied to everyone by denying it happened.That might be the first obvious thing in all of this. It's weird. The cops say no arrest, then kind of acknowledge saying there was an arrest in the paperwork. Then there's the part clarifying that an arrest either happens if the cops see the abuser actively laying hands on someone or when a prosecutor feels it can push a case fully through (a tall order to say the least).
It will be interesting to see who all gets sacrificed to the mob. Lots of people have skin on the line. If Urban reported up what he knew as he said on Friday they may have a hard time firing him for cause. So, it would cost The OSU around $40 million to fire him. That's a lot of cash for a sacrificial cow.I think for obvious reasons, OSU is trying hard to make a case where Meyer is not that cow. If they come to the conclusion that he should be that cow, it will be interesting to see if the 2009 incident was or was not disclosed to oSU and Meyer’s part in that.
McMurphy reported yesterday that Courtney's lawyer has not (yet) been contacted by the university or its recently assembled investigators. Hopefully only that's a matter of timing and will be corrected very soon.Also interesting he said she had made concerted efforts to press charges and never been arrested for an OVI.
Maybe it wasn't required to report rumors of marital problems.As a practical matter I can't imagine anyone being required to report "rumors of marital problems".
As a practical matter I can't imagine anyone being required to report "rumors of marital problems".When taking "marital problems" generally, I think that's true. Though I still expect that manadatory reporters are trained/expected to even report *rumors* of domestic violence, even without arrest or criminal charge, just in case.
Also interesting he said she had made concerted efforts to press charges and never been arrested for an OVI.True. She was pulled over 3 Times for driving very erratically- and each time blamed it on being upset about Zach, or being chased by him.
True. She was pulled over 3 Times for driving very erratically- and each time blamed it on being upset about Zach, or being chased by him.Has that actually been reported? Or is anonymous BuckNuts site poster now being cited as someone legitimate? He provided no documentation with any of his claims that I saw. Just that a good buddy text him some info.
It will be interesting to see if the standards of presumption of innocence will be equally applied to Zach and Courtney- as it relates to “was not charged”.
Given the 2009 public record and Zach's published texts with Courtney admitting to strangling her and assorted abuses, the proceedings really don't even require diving into whether Courtney is unreliable or has bad motives. Which is good for us, because that crutch is overused and ugly.Translation: not being charged does not mean innocence. And I agree.
I think for obvious reasons, OSU is trying hard to make a case where Meyer is not that cow. If they come to the conclusion that he should be that cow, it will be interesting to see if the 2009 incident was or was not disclosed to oSU and Meyer’s part in that.Why would the 09 incident matter to tOSU, he was in Florida at the time and I would guess that a background was preformed on Smith when he was hired, if they did not short cut things because of Bruce, but still, nothing to with tOSU in 2018.
My gut tells he he’s still coaching at the end of 2018z
True. She was pulled over 3 Times for driving very erratically- and each time blamed it on being upset about Zach, or being chased by him.Was this validated by anyone? I don't think it was.
It will be interesting to see if the standards of presumption of innocence will be equally applied to Zach and Courtney- as it relates to “was not charged”.
Translation: not being charged does not mean innocence. And I agree.Exactly, and that whole issue is still perplexing to me! I am not sure how Ohio operates, but I know here in Indiana, DV was not treated with kid gloves. I responded to many calls for service, and in some cases BOTH parties where arrested and went to jail. The prosecutor I worked for filed charges regardless if both parties cooperated or not, especially if there were children in the household. That did not mean jail time, often it was a court ordered counseling requirements and DFC visits.
Also 2009 is not really at issue. It happened. It was acknowledged and reported.
At issue is the 2015 incident. What actually happened, was it reported, and how did false descriptions of it by a reporter and public? What if anything was done by the University to further investigate it, and so on
At issue is the 2015 incident. What actually happened, was it reported, and how did false descriptions of it by a reporter and public? What if anything was done by the University to further investigate it, and so onThose are no doubt at issue.
Why would the 09 incident matter to tOSU, he was in Florida at the time and I would guess that a background was preformed on Smith when he was hired, if they did not short cut things because of Bruce, but still, nothing to with tOSU in 2018.Bringing a "guy with this kind of history" into OSU and Urban knowing about that history probably required full reporting of it before Zach's hire (likely while the university vetted him - in case their vet and background checks came up incomplete with information Urban did have).
Bringing a "guy with this kind of history" into OSU and Urban knowing about that history probably required full reporting of it before Zach's hire (likely while the university vetted him - in case their vet and background checks came up incomplete with information Urban did have).This.
Exactly, and that whole issue is still perplexing to me! I am not sure how Ohio operates, but I know here in Indiana, DV was not treated with kid gloves. I responded to many calls for service, and in some cases BOTH parties where arrested and went to jail. The prosecutor I worked for filed charges regardless if both parties cooperated or not, especially if there were children in the household. That did not mean jail time, often it was a court ordered counseling requirements and DFC visits.You do have real life experiences, more so than anyone on this board I would imagine. I have also read some in the legal community sharing similar experiences. What's difference and what was different in the PSu case is that you're dealing with a powerhouse football program and the reporting and handling of events involving a member of the coaching staff would be handled different.
Bringing a "guy with this kind of history" into OSU and Urban knowing about that history probably required full reporting of it before Zach's hire (likely while the university vetted him - in case their vet and background checks came up incomplete with information Urban did have).If they came up incomplete, with or without Meyer's input, then they need a new compliance/background investing procedure. No different than hiring Kevin Wilson!
You do have real life experiences, more so than anyone on this board I would imagine. I have also read some in the legal community sharing similar experiences. What's difference and what was different in the PSu case is that you're dealing with a powerhouse football program and the reporting and handling of events involving a member of the coaching staff would be handled different.I agree Mario, someone else posted something to the same accord, but you are correct, in this day and age, things can not be swept under the rug, regardless the program, like they used to be, and the PSU case shows us how it used to be done. That situation would not have unfolded like it did in today's world, regardless the Coach, or program might. Take a look at the happenings at many of these schools and all the big name coaches that have went away. Information is way to easy to get, verify and send out! And I won't even bring up the civil pay outs involved.
Again, don't read that as an OSU problem. I'm quite confident that if problems came up with someone on Bo's staff, the police went straight to Bo to handle it quietly. It's simply that times have changed so much in the last few years that now so much of this becomes public so quickly.
This is honestly a fascinating situation.
You do have real life experiences, more so than anyone on this board I would imagine. I have also read some in the legal community sharing similar experiences. What's difference and what was different in the PSu case is that you're dealing with a powerhouse football program and the reporting and handling of events involving a member of the coaching staff would be handled different.Absolutely, and I think a lot of these guys are relics of that mentality, that I truly believe they are just doing things they way they've always been done. They either give that answer and are so insulated by the big time college athletics world that they don't know why it doesn't fly, or they know it won't fly, but don't really have any other answer, because that's the truth. As I've said, that's where I suspect Izzo falls too. The police investigated, declined to press charges, I've done all I had to do. That rubber stamp from the police was good enough for a long time to give the coaches their green light to proceed.
Again, don't read that as an OSU problem. I'm quite confident that if problems came up with someone on Bo's staff, the police went straight to Bo to handle it quietly. It's simply that times have changed so much in the last few years that now so much of this becomes public so quickly.
This is honestly a fascinating situation.
If they came up incomplete, with or without Meyer's input, then they need a new compliance/background investing procedure. No different than hiring Kevin Wilson!Not necessarily. This point is essentially about the Venn Diagram of "What Urban knows" and "What is in the background check." It's possible that Urban didn't know anything that wasn't already in the background check. In that case, he might still be required to report his tidbits (as a formality), but you're right that it wouldn't actually matter in the larger scheme.
Not necessarily. This point is essentially about the Venn Diagram of "What Urban knows" and "What is in the background check." It's possible that Urban didn't know anything that wasn't already in the background check. In that case, he might still be required to report his tidbits (as a formality), but you're right that it wouldn't actually matter in the larger scheme.You would think that, however, and I don't know how deep of a background they conduct, or if you have ever had to go through an in depth background check, but from personal experiences, they are very detailed and its hard to disguise information from a good background investigation. Be an interesting investigative report to see just how deep they go on hiring a coach. If its anything like the NFL does on future players, its pretty deep and very thorough. A friend of mine conducted background investigations for the Colts, and having been personally been thorough backgrounds on the local, State and Federal level (I was shocked that the Federal investigator tracked down my HS Football coaches, I did not even provide information relating to that, and asked questions), its hard to see any information relating to this incident going unnoticed.
On the other hand, if Meyer did know something beyond what's in the background check, perhaps because his and Zach's personal relationship gave him extra insight, then Urban would probably be required to report that and it in the larger scheme it would matter more (could plausibly be the difference between hire/no-hire).
It will be interesting to see who all gets sacrificed to the mob. Lots of people have skin on the line. If Urban reported up what he knew as he said on Friday they may have a hard time firing him for cause. So, it would cost The OSU around $40 million to fire him. That's a lot of cash for a sacrificial cow.I feel this is the 3rd time in this thread I've corrected this. The Powell police report went straight to Gene Smith, he reported it down to Urban and called Zach Smith back from a recruiting trip. There is no Urban didn't report it, his bossed called him in.
Given the 2009 public record and Zach's published texts with Courtney admitting to strangling her and assorted abuses, the proceedings really don't even require diving into whether Courtney is unreliable or has bad motives. Which is good for us, because that crutch is overused and ugly.Just a technicality here (I'm still in the camp that Zach Smith is POS): Saying your sorry legally is not considered an admission of guilt.
Just a technicality here (I still in the camp Zach Smith is POS): Saying your sorry legally is not considered an admission of guilt.That's fair. And I'm only somewhat serious when I ask this distinction, what if the person you are alleged to have abused says:
Interesting interview I listened to with Tim May from the Columbus Dispattch. Pretty fair and balanced guy I have respect for ( who FWIW-has no idea how all of this turns out).I listened to this interview, and then tried to read more about this part. I think if I was his boss, I'd go insane on him.
He confirmed what I suspected all along- that when Meyer answered that fateful question about the 2015 incident- at Big Ten Media days, he was specifically referring to the just released info that Smith was arrested for a felony DV.
B.A.B. - BELIEVE ME,not all Buckeye Fans are endeared to or enamored with him.After reading as much as I care to on this saga I believe Urban stays.With the University,program and fans taking a drubbing nationally - which I don't like.And it won't be long before Meyer will be standing in front of a microphone lecturing the rest of us with his life lessons spiel like we're a bunch of contemptible little jerks who don't even deserve the privilege of his soulful,sparkling sermonI meant the writer could build some credit with the lunatic fringe.
But for just for not having a prepared statement on a fired coach.When a player gets into trouble there is a prepared statement on the trouble.Yet this was much bigger than a weekly presser.And much bigger than a kid getting in trouble.With a coach who's arrogance & salary is much bigger than most NCAA coaches.My wish is that the Meyer's just go away with their chests of baubles already procured
When taking "marital problems" generally, I think that's true. Though I still expect that manadatory reporters are trained/expected to even report *rumors* of domestic violence, even without arrest or criminal charge, just in case.FWIW:
DV is not on her list. Meyer's contract has language including "Intimate violence." And I've read lawyer opinions that DV likely qualifies, if not fully stands in, for that terminology. Of course what those words mean can still be a fair conversation for this message board to rehash.I agree on that. I was specifically replying to the "mandated reporters" in the prior post because that has a particular legal meaning, at least in Ohio.
Just to add it to the record -- This is the new paragraph 4.1 (e) of Meyer's extension:Not trying to justify not reporting (if he didn't), but all of those terms are in the context of Sexual Misconduct. Maybe I am not informed as to where domestic violence falls under, but I won't think it falls under Sexual misconduct.
Coach shall promptly report to Ohio State's Title IX Athletics any known violations of Ohio State's Sexual Misconduct Policy (including, but not limited to, sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual exploitation, intimate violence and stalking) that involve any student, faculty or staff or that is in connection with a university sponsored activity or event. ... For purposes of this Section 4.1 (e), a "known violation" shall mean a violation or allegation of a violation of Title IX that Coach is aware of or has reasonable cause is taking place or may have taken place.
Another new paragraph expresses that failure to follow this rule could void the contract.
Not trying to justify not reporting (if he didn't), but all of those terms are in the context of Sexual Misconduct. Maybe I am not informed as to where domestic violence falls under, but I won't think it falls under Sexual misconduct.I think the unifying tie is that they are examples of abuse between genders. And DV clearly fits there. If I'm mistaken, then what would "Intimate Violence" mean instead that also isn't already covered under the other items listed (harassment, assault, eploitation, stalking)?
Did you listen/watch the media day and question that's debated? I don't know how anyone can come to that conclusion after watching it. He absolutely is referencing the 2015 incident. He has 3 sections of his response. Section 1) the 2009 incident. Section 2) the 2015 incident and section 3) the most recent incident. It's clear there is a difference because he transitions by saying " and then this recent one.."
He confirmed what I suspected all along- that when Meyer answered that fateful question about the 2015 incident- at Big Ten Media days, he was specifically referring to the just released info that Smith was arrested for a felony DV.
Did you listen/watch the media day and question that's debated? I don't know how anyone can come to that conclusion after watching it. He absolutely is referencing the 2015 incident. He has 3 sections of his response. Section 1) the 2009 incident. Section 2) the 2015 incident and section 3) the most recent incident. It's clear there is a difference because he transitions by saying " and then this recent one.."
The question:
Urban, you said earlier that you were aware of the incident with Zach in 2009. Your inquiry into 2015 was unfounded. You couldn’t find anything. Why fire Zack now if you kept him on staff after 2009?
He talks about the 2009 incident and his relationship with the family and young marriage and then talks about 2015 and says this:
Answer:
“…2015, I got a text late last night that something happened in 2015 and uh there was nothing and unless, once again there’s nothing. Once again, I don’t know who creates a story like that. And then this recent one…..
Youtube Video of Presser (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ev0uN0cuYg&t=197s)
I have seen it 1000 times. So let me get this straight: you believe that he was asked by several reporters on his way to that conference about 2015 and he openly acknowledged it and further declared that when he investigated it there was nothing there. But then he turned around and went ask the same question he was saying that he was not aware of it? So you think he thought the reporters he gave a different answer to just before that we’re going to keep it quiet? Give me a break I have seen it 1000 times. So let me get this straight: you believe that he was asked by several reporters on his way to that conference about 2015 and he openly acknowledged it in further declared that when he investigated it there was nothing there. But then he turned around and went asked the same question he was saying that he was not aware of it? So you think he thought the reporters he gave a different answer to just before that we’re going to keep it quiet? Give me a break.
I clearly disagree with you and feel he was obviously answering the question from the wrong angle and gave him miss leading answer but thought he was telling the truth by seeing the same answer he gave the other reporters which was that what informed that the 2015 incident was now being reported as a arrest for a felony he basically said there was nothing there. That’s why if you read his Friday press release he does not say I lied, he says it’s my job to give accurate and sensitive information that’s not deceiving and I failed on all counts.
I clearly disagree with you and feel he was obviously answering the question from the wrong angle and gave a miss leading answer but thought he was telling the truth by saying the same answer he gave the other reporters which was that when informed that the 2015 incident was now being reported as a arrest for a felony he basically said there was nothing there. That’s why if you read his Friday press release he does not say I lied, he says it’s my job to give accurate and sensitive information that’s not deceiving and I feel on all counts
I'm not saying this is an offense he should be fired for, but can we please stop trying to cover up for the guy for blatantly lying at this presser? The guy lied and got caught. I'm sure we've all been there, but what the guy said was dishonest.
I think the unifying tie is that they are examples of abuse between genders. And DV clearly fits there. If I'm mistaken, then what would "Intimate Violence" mean instead that also isn't already covered under the other items listed (harassment, assault, eploitation, stalking)?I'll admit that this is a tedious thing to argue on a message board(civilly of course) but this is a legitimate contract law(breach) issue that would absolutely be challenged by a coach who has their contract voided under this provision for failure to report, what presently, (since none of us have seen the police reports (have we? I'm not following day to day) to evaluate the real time environment of the abuse) does not appear to be misconduct of a sexual nature. My own ten second analysis of this excerpt suggests the provision is borne out of a specific Title IX (a law) policy that appears to be specifically related to sexual misconduct. Not all violence against a person could possibly be considered intimate violence. Unless a court has found that any violence against a spouse or partner qualifies as intimate violence. I don't know the answer to that.
I also kind of agree a suspension in someway actually most risky option. If they conclude Urban did nothing wrong but lie at media day, story will die down (not disappear, but die down). Suspending him admits something wrong and leaves issue alive longer and subjects more scrutiny for not firing. It is actually easier to argue followed things correctly or fire and say no choice than taking middle approach.I hadn't really thought of this, but now that you point it out, I agree. The most clear-cut and least risky positions for the school to take are either:
I'm not saying this is an offense he should be fired for, but can we please stop trying to cover up for the guy for blatantly lying at this presser? The guy lied and got caught. I'm sure we've all been there, but what the guy said was dishonest.In the presser at B1G Media days Urban's answer was, at the least, definitely misleading. That said, if we start firing coaches for lying to the media we'll run out of coaches pretty quickly. Ie, what I am saying is that I really don't care if my coach or anybody else's coach is less than 100% forthcoming with the media.
In the presser at B1G Media days Urban's answer was, at the least, definitely misleading. That said, if we start firing coaches for lying to the media we'll run out of coaches pretty quickly. Ie, what I am saying is that I really don't care if my coach or anybody else's coach is less than 100% forthcoming with the media.That’s a slippery slope. It really depends what the topic is. If we’re talking about coaches giving lip service because they’re required to answer media questions, then I completely agree. If we talking about a somewhat serious topic like abuse, it’s tough pill to swallow that it’s ok to mislead the media.
That’s a slippery slope. It really depends what the topic is. If we’re talking about coaches giving lip service because they’re required to answer media questions, then I completely agree. If we talking about a somewhat serious topic like abuse, it’s tough pill to swallow that it’s ok to mislead the media.I don't think it matters the topic, in fact, I would say the deeper the topic the less you give, keeping it boring is a great way to avoid a lot of issues and media fall out. Most coaches can not do that because of ego or whatever, but those who have mastered that art, seem to be around for a long long time and often are not the focus of the media's venom or hype. I present Bill Bellichick as a prime example, compared to a guy like Rex Ryan. Or in college, a guy like Mike Leach compared to a Bill Snyder. Mike Leach and Rex Ryan where both great to watch in interviews because you never knew what was going to come out their mouth. Billichick, much like Tressel, are as much fun to listen to in an interview as it is to watch paint dry.
Again, this is not a fireable offense. That decision should solely be made on how reporting was handled, whixh I don’t believe any of us know. I think OSU has handled the post-fallout very well.
https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2018/08/courtney_smiths_mother_zach_sm.htmlWho is Jeff Snook and why is he also doing all of his reporting on Facebook?
Appears Courtney's mother and mother in law aren't as smitten with her story as McMurphy
Who is Jeff Snook and why is he also doing all of his reporting on Facebook?I think he mostly writes college football books. I wonder if this thing kicks off a new wave of independent journalism.
McMurphy has no choice. Social media is the only option available under the noncompete clause of his ESPN contract.
Who is Jeff Snook and why is he also doing all of his reporting on Facebook?Jeff Snook is a sportswriter who has written several books Ohio State football, according to 11 Warriors.
McMurphy has no choice. Social media is the only option available under the noncompete clause of his ESPN contract.
Who is Jeff Snook and why is he also doing all of his reporting on Facebook?Quite frankly before all this blew up we could've asked the same of McMurphy.Not like because he was a 2nd string writer for the world wide leader it automatically qualifies him for a Pulitzer Prize.His gem was as one sided as as a Joseph Goebbels presser.I suspected there was much more to this story and as I said when the story broke I really hope this all goes to court.
McMurphy has no choice. Social media is the only option available under the noncompete clause of his ESPN contract.
Quite frankly before all this blew up we could've asked the same of McMurphy.Not like because he was a 2nd string writer for the world wide leader it automatically qualifies him for a Pulitzer Prize.His gem was as one sided as as a Joseph Goebbels presser.I suspected there was much more to this story and as I said when the story broke I really hope this all goes to court.Disagree, there were a good number of people pissed off when he was on the list let go.
Disagree, there were a good number of people pissed off when he was on the list let go.McMurphy has been a fairly well respected and recognized journalist for some time. He has had a number of news items and stories he has broken across college football, including 3-4 just in this offseason.
Total bullshit Hail,the information being gathered doesn't sit well with the narrative that you have accepted as fact.Jeff Snook isn't an "anonymous and random bucknuts poster" .Try looking at all evidence in equal light and leave rooting interests at the doorI wasn’t referencing Jeff Snook. Seems like a good journalist. Reminds me a bit of John Bacon.
Maybe because they've(ESPN) been collectively swirling the drain as a credible source for a while I wasn't familiar with him.Right or wrong maybe the younger generations version of responsible journalism is different than mine.But I wouldn't think this one sided piece recently released is the barometer moving forwardThat was part of the issue, they fired him to retain a bunch of shouting heads who don't do a lick of real journalism.
I wasn’t referencing Jeff Snook. Seems like a good journalist. Reminds me a bit of John Bacon.I like JB,pretty straight forward,fair,balanced and pretty engaging......for a UM Guy.You'll get just as much accuracy at Bucknuts as MGOBOARD FWIW
Ya well McMurphy forgot to "Lick" the other side in this story....just sayinI agree with that. Although I feel like people are attributing too much to his story, like he claimed to do some exhaustive hit piece on Meyer. I honestly mostly stopped paying attention, but my initial take was that all his story did was question what Meyer told the media in Chicago, and based on Meyer's own apology for that, he doesn't disagree. That all McMurphy's Facebook post does is show that he did in fact know. He wasn't saying he didn't properly report, or that he was or wasn't covering it up, simply that he knew. Anything beyond that, I don't think you can attribute to McMurphy.
Quite frankly before all this blew up we could've asked the same of McMurphy.Not like because he was a 2nd string writer for the world wide leader it automatically qualifies him for a Pulitzer Prize.His gem was as one sided as as a Joseph Goebbels presser.I suspected there was much more to this story and as I said when the story broke I really hope this all goes to court.:smiley_confused1:
I agree with that. Although I feel like people are attributing too much to his story, like he claimed to do some exhaustive hit piece on Meyer. I honestly mostly stopped paying attention, but my initial take was that all his story did was question what Meyer told the media in Chicago, and based on Meyer's own apology for that, he doesn't disagree. That all McMurphy's Facebook post does is show that he did in fact know. He wasn't saying he didn't properly report, or that he was or wasn't covering it up, simply that he knew. Anything beyond that, I don't think you can attribute to McMurphy.Very good take. I couldn’t agree more.
I thought the same initially until I heard that she and her mom are estranged.
That one of these people is Zach’s mom deserves the obligatory grain of salt. But that Courtney’s own mother validates is very powerful.
I thought the same initially until I heard that she and her mom are estranged.So 3 related adults are estranged from Courtney all pointing at the same thing.You ever here the story of the boy who cried wolf.Courtney flat out lied about Earle Bruce driving down to FLA to talk her out of divorce.That was Zach's mom but Earle supposedly took the trip but stopped and saw Meyer.People made their minds up after the supposed avalanche of initial evidence.Now that the worm's turned seems the same folks aren't interested in pursuing the facts any longer.I'm really not concerned about this whole cast of characters,save the Program & University
Both sides are slinging some serious mud. The truth is probably somewhere in between.
Gene Smith would be a tough loss, strictly from a talent evaluation and hiring standpoint. Hockey, Womens Basketball, Mens Basketball and Football were all fantastic hires.My grandmother could have made that football hire.
Jeff Snook reporting that Tom Herman tipped off Brett McMurphy on this whole thing. That might make for some icy conversations.how could he possibly know that unless McMurphy or Herman told him? Why would Herman out himself if it was in fact him, and I highly doubt McMurphy would give up a source and name him in public or to someone else. That's not what good journalists do, and McMurphy is a good journalist.
I thought the same initially until I heard that she and her mom are estranged.They are estranged? That detail is central to taking Snook's post at face value. How can we know if it is true? My expectation of good journalism is that those kinds of matters of source credibility be asked and reported.
Both sides are slinging some serious mud. The truth is probably somewhere in between.
how could he possibly know that unless McMurphy or Herman told him? Why would Herman out himself if it was in fact him, and I highly doubt McMurphy would give up a source and name him in public or to someone else. That's not what good journalists do, and McMurphy is a good journalist.Oh really and your posts are rock solid and accurate because it fits your narrative.Courtney's less credible than you at this juncture.She never opened her yap until her payday disappeared.We've ascertained what she is and now were figuring her price.You just jumped the gun and are now eating some crow - just leave some left for "good journalist McMurphy".So good ESPN left him go and kept Stephen A.And you would know a good journalist how?Because he runs with a hatchet job you find riveting.Again I'd love to see all this go to court.Urban being an ignorant,arrogant ass isn't a crime against humanity.If he had handled his answers better the University/Program wouldn't have a black eye
This Jeff Snook character seems like a clown.
Jeff Snook reporting that Tom Herman tipped off Brett McMurphy on this whole thing. That might make for some icy conversations.Ya well Urban took a cheap shot at Herman last year,forget the situation but he piled on for seemingly no reason.Prolly trying to keep a foot in the door on Texas recruiting
They are estranged? That detail is central to taking Snook's post at face value. How can we know if it is true? My expectation of good journalism is that those kinds of matters of source credibility be asked and reported.Well let’s be consistent. Are we saying that people who are estranged sling mud or potentially lie?
The wife’s mom I think just shared texts with McMurphy that contradict her last interview. 70s people might be insane. Perio The wife‘s mom I think just shared texts with McMurphy that contradict her last interview. Some of these people might be insane.For the board:
I have not had time to dig through as I’m driving somewhere.
McMurphy denies that Tom Herman is his source...It was silly on its face to think Snook would know the source anyway. Maybe Snook did (McMurphy saying otherwise isn't strictly proof), but it'd be a super oddball coincidence.
...At least we are getting a good soap opera there between the Facebook journalists.
Well let’s be consistent. Are we saying that people who are estranged sling mud or potentially lie?That wasn’t the point at all. If I’m on good terms with my mom and we’re to go through a divorce and my mom took her side, that would be completely different than the same scenario but my mom and I hate each other and haven’t spoken in two years. Many folks were making the argument that even her mom was defending Zach. That’s a less powerful fact knowing they aren’t on good terms.
It was silly on its face to think Snook would know the source anyway. Maybe Snook did (McMurphy saying otherwise isn't strictly proof), but it'd be a super oddball coincidence.it was a stupid dumbfounded allegation that this Snook guy- whom I'm sure no one has ever heard of before- posted on his facebook with zero evidence to back it up.
At this rate, I’m feeling like Meyer is gaining momentum.You must not watch much football...
But I don’t believe that momentum is a real thing,
I don't see any problem with his reporting, other than the weird thing of him changing his story but not putting in a disclaimer about it. I find that very weird.Maybe unusual. But the change was correct (in good faith). And Facebook leaves an official record of all edits. So it's not obfuscation. Plus, I'm guessing that journalists typical make edits and the editor adds that bracketed addendum to make note that edits have been made. In any event, it's not a sticking point.
You must not watch much football...Actually, I am with BAB. I tend to think "momentum" is just an illusion that fits a convenient narrative in a sport that would be back and forth even if "momentum" *certainly* didn't exist.
Actually, I am with BAB. I tend to think "momentum" is just an illusion that fits a convenient narrative in a sport that would be back and forth even if "momentum" *certainly* didn't exist.On an LSU board a few years ago, a bunch of us had a HUGE row about this. I didn't participate much, only read the thread. I started out more like "Of course, momentum is a real thing, how could you watch sports and not get that?" but after reading the pages of back and forth, well-reasoned opinions, I wound up more like "Eh....it's not real after all, more of a nebulous term that covers a wide range of other tangible factors that are too nuanced and complex to describe quickly or often, but the term itself is mainly vague and meaningless."
You must not watch much football...Momentum would be what? That good things just sort of compound on each other? Does that happen a lot in college football? It usually seems like things swing wildly, which could be momentum, but then that means momentum is broken and lost relatively often. At which point, I don’t know what it is.
Herman and McMurphy denied it, but it appears a bunch of random Texas people started talking about Zach Smith in the days leading up to the report.I wouldn't be surprised if McMurphy's reporting was catalyzed by increasingly diffuse hearsay. But I still have serious doubts that the rumors originated disconnected from Gainesville (in Texas let alone from Herman pointedly). With our limited info, I'd sooner believe that the rumors were getting sufficiently diffuse that they were showing up in many places with a Meyer protégé. That would make this alleged scuttlebutt in Austin a correlate of the reporting and not a cause.
Herman and McMurphy denied it, but it appears a bunch of random Texas people started talking about Zach Smith in the days leading up to the report.what people? What are you referring to specifically?
what people? What are you referring to specifically?https://twitter.com/11W/status/1028712496323063809
Herman and McMurphy denied it, but it appears a bunch of random Texas people started talking about Zach Smith in the days leading up to the report.Could that just be a reaction to the one guy posting the police report?
Sounds like Zach was also arrested for OVI in 2013. To me, one of the most consistently surprising things about all of this is how insular and uninterested the OSU beat was to print bad PR when it came to Zach Smith.The saddest part of this one is that Zach Smith publicly ripped the Nebraska coach (Williams) on twitter when he was arrested for the same offense AFTER Zach Smith's offense. I guess Zach's fortune was a media contingent that was either complicit or ignorant to any activity in the Columbus area. At this point Zach deserves everything that comes his way.
That's substantiated by the facts that (1) the DV events never came to light until now, that (2) the OVI arrest also remained on record but unreported, and then by (3) Ramzy's explicit acknowledgement that "everyone knew" about Smith's alcoholism and rumors of abuse but sat on these stories anyway, including himself.
How many more days are left in the 15 day investigation?Other than Urban's careless response at media day, this is the most dubious utterance by anybody involved in this from the osu side in this.
Other than Urban's careless response at media day, this is the most dubious utterance by anybody involved in this from the osu side in this.Thank you.
Thank you.The answer to that question is directly proportionate to how much of the $500,000 budget is left that needs to go into folks bank account!
So, how many? Or, when will the extension be filed?
I could see places like tOSU having a half million set aside in the budget for scandalous investigationsThe Ohio AG set the cap, it was not in a budget.
I could see places like tOSU having a half million set aside in the budget for scandalous investigationsMoney isn't an issue for any of our schools. They can find it if they need it.
Other than Urban's careless response at media day, this is the most dubious utterance by anybody involved in this from the osu side in this.Yeah, so...
Yeah, as I and others stated far, far upthread, this dude is not Gordon (OH) Gee.HE is not Gordon Gee, but I am sure he wants to keep his million dollar a year job in Columbus, and certain folks (big money) have expressed a displeasure in how this starting to drag out. They do not want to see a set back in the machine like happened when Tressel left. Like it or not, money talks and football brings in the money in Columbus.
HE is not Gordon Gee, but I am sure he wants to keep his million dollar a year job in Columbus, and certain folks (big money) have expressed a displeasure in how this starting to drag out. They do not want to see a set back in the machine like happened when Tressel left. Like it or not, money talks and football brings in the money in Columbus.Maybe. I'm not sure Drake cares, though (which is a good thing, I think). And I think he'd be more likely to stay high on the candidates list for the next job he wants if he ultimately comes off as tougher here, on the tough-weak spectrum.
Maybe. I'm not sure Drake cares, though (which is a good thing, I think). And I think he'd be more likely to stay high on the candidates list for the next job he wants if he ultimately comes off as tougher here, on the tough-weak spectrum.I think he does care, on both fronts. He is one of the Top 10 highest paid University Presidents, and depending where he wants to ultimately end up, a tough stance on this incident may not look as good for the next football power school considering him, but a university that does not have a power house football/athletic program may not care and scoop him up. Hard to say for sure where he is coming from, he took a lot of heat over the Marching Band Director firing, but seemed to stand by his decision,and spent a lot of money in the process, so who knows, he may not care and may think he is above being replaced as well.
If - in terms of aftermath PR - he comes off as weak on the football program, it will follow him like a shadow forever.
/ickReading through the brief list of “toys” Smith ordered to his office and wondering if any mocking fan commemoration could be made of it, similarly to when Gators fans taunted Peter Warrick with Dillard’s bags. But no, just too trashy. Ohio State employed a lowlife.
And now there are these allegations. Cool guy.This whole story has hurdled the shark. Then came back and backflipped over it.
https://watchstadium.com/news/zach-smith-sex-toys-ohio-state-offices-staffer-nude-photos-white-house-08-17-2018/
/ick
And now there are these allegations. Cool guy.Hopefully anyone who thought McMurphy was a decent journalist now see him for what he really is, a hack who is desperate for attention.
https://watchstadium.com/news/zach-smith-sex-toys-ohio-state-offices-staffer-nude-photos-white-house-08-17-2018/
/ick
Hopefully anyone who thought McMurphy was a decent journalist now see him for what he really is, a hack who is desperate for attention.A reporter receives a video of an Ohio State football coach having sex with a staffer in the University football offices in the midst of a serious investigation and he is not supposed to report on it? That’s the takeaway?? Was everyone who reported on Bobby Petrino “desperate for attention?”
Reporting something like this crosses all boundaries of balanced journalism, and any claim he had to doing the right thing just went out the window.
Not sure this does much for Smith- but I would imagine it helps Meyer since it clearly illustrate the desperation and agenda.
A reporter receives a video of an Ohio State football coach having sex with a staffer in the University football offices in the midst of a serious investigation and he is not supposed to report on it? That’s the takeaway?? Was everyone who reported on Bobby Petrino “desperate for attention?”Zach Smith is the former WR coach. If him getting a blowjob is newsworthy, I guess it's newsworthy. Hard to shake the feeling that McMurphy went from being a good reporter on an issue of importance to a tabloid reporter just throwing shit against the wall.
Zach Smith has some serious issues, and probably needs to be institutionalized somewhere, before he harms himself, his kids, or anyone else, that’s my takeaway. No wonder Tom Herman is supporting Courtney Smith.
A reporter receives a video of an Ohio State football coach having sex with a staffer in the University football offices in the midst of a serious investigation and he is not supposed to report on it? That’s the takeaway?? Was everyone who reported on Bobby Petrino “desperate for attention?”Yeah, he was just sitting there and he “received a video” lmao. And it is relevant to the investigation of the head coach how? Please. Don’t even try. The guy is as much a POS as the guy he is trying to ruin. What is to gain by this?
Zach Smith has some serious issues, and probably needs to be institutionalized somewhere, before he harms himself, his kids, or anyone else, that’s my takeaway. No wonder Tom Herman is supporting Courtney Smith.
Hopefully anyone who thought McMurphy was a decent journalist now see him for what he really is, a hack who is desperate for attention.yeah, or not.
Reporting something like this crosses all boundaries of balanced journalism, and any claim he had to doing the right thing just went out the window.
Not sure this does much for Smith- but I would imagine it helps Meyer since it clearly illustrate the desperation and agenda.
Just so I understand this....yeah, it's insane. I really don't get it.
-Zach Smith knocks around and strangulates pregnant wife.
-Zach smith continues to knock around wife
-Zach smith drives drunk PRIOR to publicly shaming and criticizing Nebraska coach for same issue
-Zach smith has sex with University staffer in football offices.
= Brett McMurphy is a bad guy
Makes sense
I haven't really noticed anyone attack McMurphy yet.You must not have friends or family that are Buckeye fans. I will honestly say that the reaction from some of the guys I consider my best friends is embarrassing. All they are doing is trashing McMurphy.
You must not have friends or family that are Buckeye fans. I will honestly say that the reaction from some of the guys I consider my best friends is embarrassing. All they are doing is trashing McMurphy.they are shooting the messenger for real.
I haven't really noticed anyone attack McMurphy yet.I don't see how it's relevant at all, at least in regards to domestic violence. Relevant to domestic violence might be a report about his past and present partners and whether he was violent towards them. Details on their lovemaking, not so much.
He's the only journalist involved to only report entirely on documents, many never-before reported, and none of them anonymously.
Plus, the trashiness of this latest news isn't on the reporter but on Zach Smith. And the details are sadly relevant because they go to character.
Also: The conversation can't become any trashier than Zach's behavior. He and only he defined that limit.
I don't see how it's relevant at all, at least in regards to domestic violence. Relevant to domestic violence might be a report about his past and present partners and whether he was violent towards them. Details on their lovemaking, not so much.mmm... If it was "just a partner" yah no big deal. But it was an employee, while at work. Shows continue lack of character on Zach Smith's part.
yeah, or not.Someone keeps feeding him more, lol. You mean the ONE person he talked to in his “ investigation” lol?
McMurphy broke this entire story. If someone keeps feeding him more info like he's really not going to report it? Yeah, Ok.
Zach Smith is a ratfuck disgrace of a human being. Says A LOT about Urban Meyer's character to employ a loser like that.
Urban wouldn't be taking so much backlash if he wasn't such a sniveling holier than thou douchebag who clams to be some sort of arbiter of morality and just an awe shucks good guy. When all he is in reality is a hypocrite.
I haven't really noticed anyone attack McMurphy yet.Documents, you mean the police report that claims an arrest in 2015 that nobody has seen or can find and that he has not produced? His report was based on texts, and one interview.
He's the only journalist involved to only report entirely on documents, many never-before reported, and none of them anonymously.
Plus, the trashiness of this latest news isn't on the reporter but on Zach Smith. And the details are sadly relevant because they go to character.
Also: The conversation can't become any trashier than Zach's behavior. He and only he defined that limit.
Just so I understand this....Spoken like someone who has a predetermined narrative.
-Zach Smith knocks around and strangulates pregnant wife.
-Zach smith continues to knock around wife
-Zach smith drives drunk PRIOR to publicly shaming and criticizing Nebraska coach for same issue
-Zach smith has sex with University staffer in football offices.
= Brett McMurphy is a bad guy
Makes sense
mmm... If it was "just a partner" yah no big deal. But it was an employee, while at work. Shows continue lack of character on Zach Smith's part.Your take is a breath of fresh air and exactly how I feel.
Taking pictures of your schlong while at the white house, again shows poor character. I think Zack wants to be in charge, and has shown he is willing to cross the line to be in charge (meaning it's very plausible he beat his wife, in more than just self defense.)
The buying sexy mens underwear as a gag gift seems a bit out there to report on.
Zach Smith is a POS.
McMurphy falls into the sensational trap our current society does, and that is to try and take down the shiniest apple on the tree. If it wasn't him it would have been a different reporter. His line of reporting seems at times to attack OSU, and as a fan of OSU that is hard to hear, but that doesn't make him the bad guy.
Zach Smith is the bad guy. Courtney Smith is the victim. The question still; Should Urban/OSU have done more, and done it sooner?
This would be a good thread to earmark for the next time Super Mario whines about posters picking on poor Michigan.When someone isn’t capable debating the facts, they attack the opposition. Pathetic and childish response on your part.
The people eager for Meyer to get punitive damages are part of the lynch mob-style, drag the most famous person with any connection to the actual problem down crowd.I agree OAM, with one asterisk. If Meyer did not share info he had on this by following process/ protocol, in effect covering it up, I feel like he should be fired. Right now the evidence of whether he did or didn’t is not public.
Whether he should or should not have told someone, considering the situation, is a personal opinion thing. He's literally only guilty of lying to the cameras, which is something every coach on the planet has done.
The guy who is at immediate fault has lost his job and will likely never coach again, due to this hubbub. The fact that there is so much peripheral 'stuff' regarding Meyer is yet another bit of evidence of the larger issue of our society. Period.
A coach lying isn’t part of the problem of society because every coach lies? Odd take.I actually agree for the most part. When he said that, I firmly believe that he had heard about it being an “arrest” for the first time, the day before, and since he had it thoroughly checked out back in 15 that’s what he was referring to.he had no way of knowing that McMurphy had altered his story by that time.
Meyer is involved because he made himself involved. He poured gas on the fire when he stood in a press conference and arrogantly tried to embarrass a reporter in the room by saying “who makes up a story like that?”
He has no one to blame but himself and his ego. He could have given a PC answer, but his pride bested him and consequences are not always pretty.
A coach lying isn’t part of the problem of society because every coach lies? Odd take.His error was not giving a throwaway answer to a question. LOCK HIM UP!
Meyer is involved because he made himself involved. He poured gas on the fire when he stood in a press conference and arrogantly tried to embarrass a reporter in the room by saying “who makes up a story like that?”
He has no one to blame but himself and his ego. He could have given a PC answer, but his pride bested him and consequences are not always pretty.
I don't see how it's relevant at all, at least in regards to domestic violence. Relevant to domestic violence might be a report about his past and present partners and whether he was violent towards them. Details on their lovemaking, not so much.It speaks to his character.
- he gets an OVI, but hides it from OSU.These two things are very strange points.
- this all gets blown up by McMurphy, because he didn’t like Meyer deceiving people at Big Ten Media days.
Someone keeps feeding him more, lol. You mean the ONE person he talked to in his “ investigation” lol?This is a fascinating part of this because I'd argue, in our hearts, we really usually don't want to know the truth.
Look, I get why you don’t like him- but there seems to be 5 versions of this situation.
The alleged victim, and the 4 others, which all seem to dispute her side. ( the police, the mom, the other mom and the accused). And how you keep making this about the head coach is not credible. At least not to a person who truly care about the truth.
When someone isn’t capable debating the facts, they attack the opposition. Pathetic and childish response on your part.This was only my second post in this thread. I knew what it would be, and stayed out of it. I'm just laughing at how you were whining and crying about not being able to post here anymore because of all the subtle jabs that the big mean OSU posters were taking at Michigan during the Hoke and Rich Rod years, and how you would never conduct your behavior in such a manner.
perfect tweet from long-time sports writer Matt Hayes...Evidently you and Matt Hayes both have your heads up your ass.Smith was fired because of tresspassing and violation of a restraining order.That happened before he broke any story.Does some homework before you repeat what some other schmuck says.Hayes should know better as supposedly he is being paid to do so
Matt Hayes @MattHayesCFB (https://twitter.com/MattHayesCFB) 6h6 hours ago (https://twitter.com/MattHayesCFB/status/1030582605035577344)
Sit back and let this marinate: Without McMurphy’s reporting, Zach Smith would still be the wide receiver coach at Ohio State. And it was “hard” for Urban Meyer to finally fire him — after McMurphy’s first story.
13 replies 46 retweets 152 likes
Evidently you and Matt Hayes both have your heads up your ass.Smith was fired because of tresspassing and violation of a restraining order.That happened before he broke any story.Does some homework before you repeat what some other schmuck says.He should know better as supposedly he is being paid to do soThat's not an accurate timetable. You could argue that this was just a coincidence, that McMurphy wasn't the cause^^, but within an hour of each of McMurphy's two Monday July 23 reports (the Monday of Big Ten Media Days, 24h or less before Urban speaks), OSU (a) said they were monitoring the allegations into Smith** and then after the second report that day, they (b) fired Smith within minutes.
This is a fascinating part of this because I'd argue, in our hearts, we really usually don't want to know the truth.I can only speak for myself, not the “we” you frequently throw out there.
In a post farther back, you lashed out at an "unbalanced" report, the balance of which can be discussed within the confines of journalistic balance and what balance means when someone's not talking at a later point. But we know the truth isn't balanced. If a pregnant woman got bounced off a wall, that it was charged or not has only a slight bearing on if it happened. Truth is something that did or didn't happen. They're both crazy and tie goes to this is overblown isn't a question of truth.
In the end, there are many truths we don't and won't know. So we fill in, often with our own biases or what we'd like it to be.
And in a larger sense, we really don't want truth. The truth is, large portions of the coaches and players we root for are truly unpleasant people. They are powerful, ultracompetitive and often came up in situations of being emotionally coddled and allow to get away with things. I doubt Zach Smith's boorish and fireable behavior is deeply rare (maybe rare to that complete degree). But we whitewash it because we like liking this sport, and thinking too hard about it can make that hard. The man who built my team to prominence was an enormous egomaniacal jerk, and his replacement was petulant, sometimes immature and always rumored to be making s drunken mess of himself. They made the team do the things I wanted and it was never so egregious, so I made peace with it. To a degree, lord knows we did with Urbs, we all do.
By the end of the day, 2015 became more widely circulated news. And OSU quickly fired Smith within 60 minutes of McMurphy's second report that day (still before Urban ever took the podium).It was my understanding from everything read,what % is accurate is yet to be determined,that Admn(Gene Smith?) knew about 2015 & '18.Zach's firing skids could have already been greased and happen to coincide with Media Days,press releases.I don't know how Urban couldn't know about it unless because charges previously hadn't been filed & police reports sealed they felt no need to tell him.I'm thinking Gene and Urban get shown the door.I pisses me off that URBZ could walk away with a healthy payday.Again though this is about Urbz/Ath.Dept's inaction more than Courtney playing victim.She has been proven a liar(abou Earle Bruce) and did indeed play the system for more coin.Screaming wolf only when the well run dry
(1) It's not reasonable to believe that Urban's responsibilities here shouldn't activate unless the info he received was exactly "irrefutable." That burden of proof is far higher than "beyond a reasonable doubt." Zeroing in on that word, saying he's off if the evidence wasn't purely irrefutable, insulates you, no matter what we realistically learn this week, from ever having to change your mind.So, see Nubzz post above about the very different versions. You have multiple people saying Courtney spoke often of brining Meyer down, and being very violent herself. It appears, and I acknowledge this is not fact, the police were not inclined to press charges.
(2) Some people are defending Smith and some don't think he should have been fired. Reporting about his sleeping with staff, photoing his genitalia, etc. is directly relevant to each of those items.
(2a) It continues to go to character (he is alleged to have very *frequently* engaged creepy and trashy behaviors).
(2b) It also strengthens the case that he stopped deserving his job years ago.
I could have done without the $2,000 in adult toys being delivered to the football offices. He’s a creepy dude, that needs to be removed from society, but we knew that before this.Agreed. I would add that there is a lot of stretch based on what we know, to make Meyer public enemy number 1.
However, if evidence or a video comes available of an assistant football coach, already embroiled in a major scandal btw, sleeping with a subordinate admin assistant in the football offices, that’s a reportable story 100x out of 100.
It also sounds like this was another individual that shared this info, not Courtney Smith. Zach Smith ripped through Columbus like an F5 tornado for a decade. Now that the doors have blown open, people are lining up to share what they have.
Who knew what when is for the investigative body to figure out, but for the time being Zach Smith is public enemy #1, not McMurphy.
Screaming fake news, calling McMurphy a “POS”, and mocking Michigan for whatever they finished last year in the West is the wrong place to direct your anger on here
This was only my second post in this thread. I knew what it would be, and stayed out of it. I'm just laughing at how you were whining and crying about not being able to post here anymore because of all the subtle jabs that the big mean OSU posters were taking at Michigan during the Hoke and Rich Rod years, and how you would never conduct your behavior in such a manner.Actually, i have posted considerably less because I had two beautiful children and started a business. I found my time spent with my family and my career much more precious. When I began posting on CFN nearly 18 years ago, the forum was filled with class acts that loved the game. Gator, Badge, BbTZ and others had differing opinions but great respect. When I see someone like you posting like you are, it’s a quick reminder why my time is well spent on family and business.
Enjoy your annual third place finish in the B1G East, assuming you can even pull that off (fourth place last year).
I can only speak for myself, not the “we” you frequently throw out there.I say we because by and large most people prefer to see their coaches and players as good people. If you'd always thought Urban was to a degree a bad dude, I happily retract the "we"
I DO want to know what Meyer’s role in this was, very specifically. I KNOW what I would do in certain situations, but not all. If he had certain, irrefutable information and did not do the right things about it, I would feel strongly he should be held accountable.
As others have said, if he is hypocritical on this topic of hitting women- again assuming there was certainty about that.....bye bye.
As for balanced reporting - I copied this from another article:
I'll refer to Society of Professional Journalism's Code of Ethics: 1) Balance the public’s need for information against potential harm or discomfort. Pursuit of the news is not a license for arrogance or undue intrusiveness. 2) Avoid pandering to lurid curiosity, even if others do.
If you think the crap McMurphy is spewing is even remotely relevant to this investigation of Meyer and OSU, than we just flat out are in opposite worlds.
this from Jeff Snook's facebookThis column, it does not inspire the confidence in Snook.But back to Herman.He realized Sunday that he had to admit giving Courtney Smith money, which turned out to be $10,000 (even after staring into the cameras two weeks ago and stating he knew nothing of anything going on at Ohio State ‘because we weren’t there in 2015”) and yet, many actually still believed his denial.And for the record, in the many subsequent messages to and from Michelle Herman since, I have demanded that her husband retract his denial and do the right thing and admit the truth.I know he won’t, because he has too much at stake to admit the truth now. But he isn’t realizing one more thing: When the investigative committee releases every ounce of its findings, and his name is mentioned, he made a mistake by not admitting the truth and getting out in front of it ahead of time...The Hermans had an ax to grind only with Zach Smith, as far as I can tell, and had to be shocked beyond belief when Meyer’s role became questioned and he was placed on leave. Smith and Herman, once very close from 2012-14, had a bad falling out since Herman left Ohio State. The wives, however, were very close and remain close.Still, Michelle Herman told me this Tuesday about Courtney Smith via Messenger:“She never told me she was being abused. She never told anyone she was being abused. Nobody saw any abuse.”That, in essence, covered her husband’s responsibility toward his Title IX responsibilities while at Ohio State.She went on to describe her relationship with Courtney Smith:“We were close. I am not saying we weren’t close. We just weren’t that close while we were there. I wouldn’t call her my best friend, either.”So why give her a substantial amount of money in 2017 (three years after the Hermans left Columbus)?“When she needed to borrow money, she was drowning in debt and going to drop out of school. I said ‘that’s a bad idea. Then what will you do?’ I said, ‘Why don’t you let me loan you the money? I mean, it’s not going to hurt us.’ We loan people money all the time. Sometimes, we just give it to them.”This alsoI have reported that both Courtney Smith’s own mother and her ex-mother-in-law (Zach Smith’s mother) each have labeled her a habitual liar who was executing a pre-planned scheme to take down her ex-husband, and Meyer, himself. She spoke of it often, they said. They also claimed she was the one who committed domestic violence, with first-hand accounts.
*Consistent with their claims, the Powell police department never arrested Zach Smith despite Courtney Smith’s numerous 911 calls. No district attorney in Delaware County ever filed charges.*
Tina Carano, Courtney’s mother, described an incident in which her daughter purposely tried to run over her ex-husband with her car in the summer of 2015 in front of their two children. Zach Smith confirmed this as well. She also said her daughter has a drinking problem and “needs professional help.”
What say you, ESPN?
Crickets.
It's true. The timing with the McMurphy piece could have been a coincidence. Or, even if the OSU brass already knew, the McMurphy report could merely have been the thing that brought enough negative PR to force them to act (fire Zach).No such thing as coincidences like this.
Your take is a breath of fresh air and exactly how I feel.Thanks, sometimes I as an irrational Buckeye fan don't stink the joint up that bad.
It's true. The timing with the McMurphy piece could have been a coincidence. Or, even if the OSU brass already knew, the McMurphy report could merely have been the thing that brought enough negative PR to force them to act (fire Zach).Wouldn't it be more the timing of the McMurphy Piece and the Firing by OSU coincided with the release of the Police report?
Urban isn't the bad guy. McMurphy isn't the bad guy. Zach Smith and Zach Smith alone is the bad guy. Just a complete garbage human being. And if it wasn't for McMurphy's reporting, Smith would probably still be employed. The biggest issue people have with Urban is one- how in the hell could he employ such a mediocre coach and monumental scumbag for so long- and two- his lying and his hypocrisy.so, in my book, this makes Urban a bad guy
This column, it does not inspire the confidence in Snook.So BM(couldn't come up with better initials) Finebaum & ESPN get a free pass on speculation but public record from a Police Dept is questionable.Say that out loud and see how it sounds.My apologies if I'm reading that wrong.I'm not on anybody's side but cleaning the slate.Courtney's own mother ratted her out as getting loose with the facts after tossing back a few - and that's being generous.I'm kinda hoping the whole thing goes to court,as I've previously stated.Like to see a changing of the guard at this point and watch courtney fold like a deck chair on the Titanic under scrutiny.BTW they can take Zack out back and disembowel him with a wooden spoon
First of all, demanding the retraction via DM and then publicizing it is super weird. Then there is a LOT of ranting about ESPN and Finebaum and "the narrative." Not sure what to make of that.
So BM(couldn't come up with better initials) Finebaum & ESPN get a free pass on speculation but public record from a Police Dept is questionable.Say that out loud and see how it sounds.My apologies if I'm reading that wrong.I'm not on anybody's side but cleaning the slate.Courtney's own mother ratted her out as getting loose with the facts after tossing back a few - and that's being generous.I'm kinda hoping the whole thing goes to court,as I've previously stated.Like to see a changing of the guard at this point and watch courtney fold like a deck chair on the Titanic under scrutiny.BTW they can take Zack out back and disembowel him with a wooden spoonA. The retraction I was referring to was Snook DMing Herman's wife and demanding he retract his denial of Snook's report on his involvement.
honest questionWe always said that about Michigan too. Lloyd Carr was viewed as a guy who just didn't mess things up. I think post-retirement (at least purely as a coach) he's viewed more favorably.
If Meyer gets the boot will it really affect tOSU? I view that program as a top program no mater who is leading it. At least in the short term. Obviously recruiting comes into it but PSU weathered the storm of Joe Pa and I imagine tOSU will be fine with or without Meyer
honest questionIMO for at least a season or two as many recruits may back off because of Meyer being gone or the cloud over the program.And like it or not other programs will negatively recruit it's the nature of that aspect
If Meyer gets the boot will it really affect tOSU? I view that program as a top program no mater who is leading it. At least in the short term. Obviously recruiting comes into it but PSU weathered the storm of Joe Pa and I imagine tOSU will be fine with or without Meyer
Every helmet schools except Ohio State has gone through a rough patch in the last 30 years.But to believe that Ohio State is the lone school immune to bad coaching hires, or that they are the lone school that any coach could win at, seems naive. If all of those other schools can go through rough patches, OSU can too.SHUSH,trying to put the whammie on us,there was nothing wrong with the last 30 yrs.We even lost a couple of NCG's
You don't know where the Police Dept thing comes in?When the smoke clears they just might have as much to say as who did what - when.If this debacle heads in that directionComes in on my Snook comment? No.
Comes in on my Snook comment? No.The police department won't spill anything in a media sense, they will spill whatever is relevant to their involvement in any court proceedings, and only with any criminal aspects. If the sex with a co-worker, the sex toy mail package, the photos of whatever, or other use of his cell phone violated any criminal laws, then they could be involved in those matters as well. Again, if that all happened, and Meyer was not aware, then not an issue to his situation. IF he addressed, and kept Smith on staff, lowers Meyers character in my opinion, but still not a thing I would fire him over. As AD, I would set a clear line of expectations for future situations. IF Meyer knew, and ignored all of it (which I do not think occurred) then out the door he goes as well. To bring up every little incident, to me is, is meaning less, unless you are trying to really fire the guy, or as a media person, embarrass the program. I know McMurphy probabaly does not care at this point, because his access to Ohio State Athletics is most likely blacked out.
I await the police department spilling everything. I remain skeptical it will happen.
Just curious how does anyone know or prove what was sent/mailed to someone's place of employment?Does McMurphy have copies of the invoice.Did the supposed other employee forward info to him?The Night Cleaners?The Trainers?How does that work?Asked the same question to a few other people who where jumping up and down that that alone should be grounds for canning Urban.
"Um excuse me pal would you sign for Coach Smith's package here for a retractable Dildo,two vibrating butt plugs and a 9 oz tube of Eurasion Joy Jelly.Thanks Mack,please consider us for all your future courrier needs"
I mean really does someone have copies/pics?
Just curious how does anyone know or prove what was sent/mailed to someone's place of employment?Does McMurphy have copies of the invoice.Did the supposed other employee forward info to him?The Night Cleaners?The Trainers?How does that work?Good question. Two possible answers to me.
I mean really does someone have copies/pics?
Asked the same question to a few other people who where jumping up and down that that alone should be grounds for canning Urban.could be grounds for canning Coach Smith, but even that is a stretch
2. He and the ex wife shared an Amazon account that she could see orders from.If he's really that fookin' bent he can't land a gig as a Walmart Greeter.What an A-Hole
Just curious how does anyone know or prove what was sent/mailed to someone's place of employment?Does McMurphy have copies of the invoice.Did the supposed other employee forward info to him?The Night Cleaners?The Trainers?How does that work?Someone shared screenshots of the amazon order confirmations.
I mean really does someone have copies/pics?
Someone shared screenshots of the amazon order confirmations.Someone? Order confirmation sheet would be in his name, and the package info would be blank on the outside. If he was dumb enough to share an account that his wife could access, for toys to be used with other people, then he is a dumbass. IF they were for he and his wife, and if she shared the invoice, for items they used together, then she is truly being a vindictive bitch.
The police department won't spill anything in a media sense, they will spill whatever is relevant to their involvement in any court proceedings, and only with any criminal aspects. If the sex with a co-worker, the sex toy mail package, the photos of whatever, or other use of his cell phone violated any criminal laws, then they could be involved in those matters as well. Again, if that all happened, and Meyer was not aware, then not an issue to his situation. IF he addressed, and kept Smith on staff, lowers Meyers character in my opinion, but still not a thing I would fire him over. As AD, I would set a clear line of expectations for future situations. IF Meyer knew, and ignored all of it (which I do not think occurred) then out the door he goes as well. To bring up every little incident, to me is, is meaning less, unless you are trying to really fire the guy, or as a media person, embarrass the program. I know McMurphy probabaly does not care at this point, because his access to Ohio State Athletics is most likely blacked out.Do we think any of those three things would be out there in criminal proceedings?
or it was common knowledge in the football officeSomeone shared the screenshots with McMurphy last Friday.
multiple witnesses,
Someone? Order confirmation sheet would be in his name, and the package info would be blank on the outside. If he was dumb enough to share an account that his wife could access, for toys to be used with other people, then he is a dumbass. IF they were for he and his wife, and if she shared the invoice, for items they used together, then she is truly being a vindictive bitch.Here are the pictures.
Do we think any of those three things would be out there in criminal proceedings?Yes, it would be, unless the courts sealed the hearings for some reason.
Someone shared the screenshots with McMurphy last Friday.I don't get it,as I said before if he's that ignorant that he was still sharing an account with his ex then he deserves everything he gets.I'm thinking that Zach probably did this but in the 1% chance he didn't.....
Seems Smith's attorney is not gonna mess around with McMurphy either, and he may want to back off a bit before his skeletons start to fall out of the closet via sources or he finds himself in court.Sounds like saber ratting.
Yes, it would be, unless the courts sealed the hearings for some reason.
And do we think this will actually get to a criminal court? Especially those three things?He is charged criminally with the criminal trespass, but the more explosive hearing will be about the protection order. I forget the exact standard, but it's more or less he has to have displayed a pattern of activity that make her fear for her safety. This is a pretty broad standard and opens up a lots of cans of worms for questioning.
pattern of activity that make her fear for her safety.seems there's evidence of such a pattern
seems there's evidence of such a patternMaybe...he's charged with criminal trespass, which is a 4th degree misdemeanor and carries a maximum 30 days in jail. The circumstances are odd, and I'm not sure a judge would be inclined to impose a jail sentence. In any event, my point is the criminal case is much narrower in scope than the protection order case. Nearly all of the stuff could come in under the protection order case.
criminal court is the leverage she uses to get the big payday. Settling out of court for $$$
I won't have trouble dealing with that.Fearless kinda nails it. He’ll take a different brand of crap than he used to, but that’s about it.
I didn't think Urban was a great guy before he came to Columbus, this just confirms it a bit.
I won't have trouble dealing with tOSU's decision either. Urban is who he is. He was hired to win, not hired to be like Mike Riley. I don't think he did anything horrible. Not anymore horrible than he's done all along in his career.
modified to include..........
as long as Urban reported what he knew to the proper people in the athletic department
I won't have trouble dealing with tOSU's decision either. Urban is who he is. He was hired to win, not hired to be like Mike Riley. I don't think he did anything horrible. Not anymore horrible than he's done all along in his career.Agreed. However, I think it will begin to backfire on Urban whenever he steps back into that solemn voice, trying to let us know the better way to live, emphasizing he's the leader who knows the way. And he will do that. Because that's part of his recruiting spiel and way of reflecting on past seasons.
I found that text transcript with Koffel fascinating.yeah after reading that my advice to Zach Smith would be get a new lawyer asap. His lawyer is a clown.
Agreed. However, I think it will begin to backfire on Urban whenever he steps back into that solemn voice, trying to let us know the better way to live, emphasizing he's the leader who knows the way. And he will do that. Because that's part of his recruiting spiel and way of reflecting on past seasons.Urban would take a lot less flak if he would just be honest about who/what he is. Nobody likes a hypocrite. They like people who are real.
yeah after reading that my advice to Zach Smith would be get a new lawyer asap. His lawyer is a clown.Eh, I think his client is in a corner and Koffel's playing the only cards he has left: (a) be evasive always, (b) keep repeating the same message in case it can get your opponent to back down. It's not effective, but I don't see any spots where another lawyer could easily do better.
Agreed. However, I think it will begin to backfire on Urban whenever he steps back into that solemn voice, trying to let us know the better way to live, emphasizing he's the leader who knows the way. And he will do that. Because that's part of his recruiting spiel and way of reflecting on past seasons.and he obviously should catch some flak for his hypocrisy. Should have all along.... 5 years from now it will have diminished, but hopefully a couple Michigan reporters will keep the memory refreshed
Maybe...he's charged with criminal trespass, which is a 4th degree misdemeanor and carries a maximum 30 days in jail. The circumstances are odd, and I'm not sure a judge would be inclined to impose a jail sentence. In any event, my point is the criminal case is much narrower in scope than the protection order case. Nearly all of the stuff could come in under the protection order case.And that they are already legally divorced, there is not $$$$$ option from him. Only chance at that is sell the movie rights, write a book, or go after Ohio State University, Urban Meyer, and whoever else she would like to try and include. She would probably get something, because that seems to be the way of settlements these days, but not near what people would think.
and he obviously should catch some flak for his hypocrisy. Should have all along.... 5 years from now it will have diminished, but hopefully a couple Michigan reporters will keep the memory refreshedHopefully Jimmy Football will get jealous and try to one up Urban! Problem solved:)
and he obviously should catch some flak for his hypocrisy. Should have all along.... 5 years from now it will have diminished, but hopefully a couple Michigan reporters will keep the memory refreshedhttps://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2018-08-20-youre-blind-if-you-dont-question-brett-mcmurphys-motivation/ (https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2018-08-20-youre-blind-if-you-dont-question-brett-mcmurphys-motivation/)
https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2018-08-20-youre-blind-if-you-dont-question-brett-mcmurphys-motivation/ (https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2018-08-20-youre-blind-if-you-dont-question-brett-mcmurphys-motivation/)That's close to how I feel. In order to have deserved his job, I think Urban will have had to have reported every instance of rumored abuse and will have had to run a tight ship that doesn't allow an abuser to keep his job and hide.
I don’t know, I think that’s an oversimplification. All these opinions but nobody knows what the investigation found.
I think many people who either live in Ohio or are Buckeye fans feel the same as I do which is- if he did not report what he should have reported or if he enabled somebody he really thought was having the domestic violence issues then he should be fired.
On the other hand if they find that not only he reported everything but went further and tried to investigate police reports and get both parties versions of what happened, then I don’t think he did anything wrong and should be allowed to go on unpunished.One of the hardest questions to answer will always be "So,...why on earth did this guy not only get a job at OSU (he shouldn't have) but keep his job all the while?"
That's close to how I feel. In order to have deserved his job, I think Urban will have had to have reported every instance of rumored abuse and will have had to run a tight ship that doesn't allow an abuser to keep his job and hide.One of the hardest questions to answer will always be "So,...why on earth did this guy not only get a job at OSU (he shouldn't have) but keep his job all the while?"Well you heard Meyer say that he found out that 2009, what happened was not what was reported. Must be something to that since Smith got hired at two more schools in between.
Eventually he was fired for cause, but why on Earth so late?
Well you heard Meyer say that he found out that 2009, what happened was not what was reported. Must be something to that since Smith got hired at two more schools in between.Well, McMurphy was the first to report 2009. So that wasn't common knowledge. Clearly almost all of us missed it. And one sidelight that has become abundantly clear through this process is how skeptical we should be of the quality of some institutions' background checks.
I would guess that the marriage turned into a big he said/ she said, with witnesses and police leaning more towards Zach’s version, fair or not. When he finally was arrested, he was fired. All that other garbage is clearly stuff Meyer or any coach would never tolerate, so there’s that.The texts from Courtney and her mom corroborate their stories. And the stories about his relationship with staffers, and behavior at OSU and the White House are consistent with the allegations of poor character. It's pretty futile to think anything leans towards Zach's version (if that version is that he was a good guy who never abused her).
the vast majority are not buckeye fans
I don’t know, I think that’s an oversimplification. All these opinions but nobody knows what the investigation found.
I think many people who either live in Ohio or are Buckeye fans feel the same as I do
Well, McMurphy was the first to report 2009. So that wasn't common knowledge. Clearly almost all of us missed it. And one sidelight that has become abundantly clear through this process is how skeptical we should be of the quality of some institutions' background checks.The texts from Courtney and her mom corroborate their stories. And the stories about his relationship with staffers, and behavior at OSU and the White House are consistent with the allegations of poor character. It's pretty futile to think anything leans towards Zach's version (if that version is that he was a good guy who never abused her).Who cares if 2009 was common knowledge. If, as Urban says, proper reporting and protocol were followed, and, as he says, what was reported is different from what happened. 2009 has nothing to do with it, if you think it was a one time/ first time incident- as he indicated everyone believed.
Also, if he had been fired as soon as he was arrested, he'd have been released from his position at UF in 2009 and never hired at OSU. Instead, he wasn't fired until his presence looked bad. That his behavior was equally trashy before everyone knew clearly didn't matter. Because he was still there.
Well, McMurphy was the first to report 2009. So that wasn't common knowledge. Clearly almost all of us missed it. And one sidelight that has become abundantly clear through this process is how skeptical we should be of the quality of some institutions' background checks.The texts from Courtney and her mom corroborate their stories. And the stories about his relationship with staffers, and behavior at OSU and the White House are consistent with the allegations of poor character. It's pretty futile to think anything leans towards Zach's version (if that version is that he was a good guy who never abused her).If people who get arrested never get to be coaches, Michigan would have a different coach.
Also, if he had been fired as soon as he was arrested, he'd have been released from his position at UF in 2009 and never hired at OSU. Instead, he wasn't fired until his presence looked bad. That his behavior was equally trashy before everyone knew clearly didn't matter. Because he was still there.
the vast majority are not buckeye fansI will not support him if he covered up, or lied, or failed to follow up as required. Period.
and even the vast majority of buckeye fans like their simplified opinions
I understand that no matter what comes of this, there will be those that support Urban.
I was referencing the vast majority that have already formed their simple opinion and will haunt Urban the remainder of his career
It is just like Tressel- 90% of what was reported was blatantly false. People piled on, stories of free cars and players involved that never were. Just fake outrage.we were talking about teenagers trading in items they OWNED for DISCOUNTS on tattoos.Exactly I remember Bama Buckeye and myself seething at Tress for lying about something so trivial - but then he starts talking to the fans/general public like we were clueless rubes.Any sympathy for him then/there swirled the drain with the faithful.JMO - in many aspects that's why i don't like UFM sure he's successful but he'll look into the camera and say things for affect not accuracy
I defended Tressel until it was revealed he lied to the NCAA. I immmediately wanted him fired.
If people who get arrested never get to be coaches, Michigan would have a different coach.And a different Asst.Athletic Director :dink:
How old are Courtney & Zach Smith's children.I can't imagine if they are school age they won't get this skeleton dragged out in front of them.I really.really hope/pray not - no kid should put up with thatThey are 8 and 6. It is too easy to find that.
So here’s a question. Let’s assume this goes the way we think. Within a few days, Urban is back coaching OSU. Will we feel the system worked?I'm expecting some type of fine that becomes a donation. I think there will be some promises going forward and new "policies". I'm not sure what would be justice here as I don't see a clear answer.
Urban will have lost time with the team, but the actual punishment will be minimal. The university will have taken its time, made its judgement. Maybe there’s a great dunping of positive OSU evidence, though it’ll probably take some good questions to media to bring that out. Maybe not.
I guess at the end, will those inside the OSU camp see it as a virulent question coming up and being dealt with, or as an injustice of sorts that it happened at all? And those more prone to be skeptical of OSU, will there be a sense of closure in the right process having been completed?
If people who get arrested never get to be coaches, Michigan would have a different coach.Sure, if, then that. But that wasn't my if. Tolerating a serial abuser was my if.
Who cares if 2009 was common knowledge. If, as Urban says, proper reporting and protocol were followed, and, as he says, what was reported is different from what happened. 2009 has nothing to do with it, if you think it was a one time/ first time incident- as he indicated everyone believed.Even in that case, it stops being a one-time/first-time incident as soon as more rumors pop up. And even if those new rumors are not substantiated, the 2009 event was serious enough that any good "zero tolerance for serial abuse" policy would fire him after the first post-2009 rumor. Instead, it required umpteen post-2009 rumors. Oh, **and** for it to go public and look really/super bad.
Courtney’s mom,s current and up to date take do NOT corroborate Courtney’s take. The texts from back then do, but how do we know those were not just spur of the moment emotional reactions- changed now that her mom has witnessed real situations ( as she says) were Zach was more trying to escape when she was drunk, and was the aggressor.All I said was that the texts corroborate the events. The ones from Courtney's mom establish that the mom believed Zach was a serial abuser. Full stop. The ones from Courtney are consistent with both she believing Zach is a serial abuser and he is essentially agreeing (certainly not denying). Full stop. Of course, none of these parties knew their texts would later become evidence. But I didn't call them proof. I called them corroborative.
Lastly- nobody is claiming Zack is not a bad character. Tim May went on Finebaum yesterday and clearly stated OSU was in the process of terminating Zach before McMurphy’s report came out, and also that the investigation already knew about the sex toys and affair with an OSU employee before McMurphy put that out.
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2018/08/95485/columbus-dispatchs-tim-may-tells-paul-finebaum-he-wouldnt-be-surprised-if-urban-meyer-was-back-with-the-team-by (https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2018/08/95485/columbus-dispatchs-tim-may-tells-paul-finebaum-he-wouldnt-be-surprised-if-urban-meyer-was-back-with-the-team-by)
I will not support him if he covered up, or lied, or failed to follow up as required. Period..You forgot "Or if Urban Meyer's leadership permitted an environment in which a serial abuser could hide, be tolerated, or thrive." That one activates even if Meyer (unbelievably) never knew a thing. Because it's the boss's job to build a better environment than that.
So here’s a question. Let’s assume this goes the way we think. Within a few days, Urban is back coaching OSU. Will we feel the system worked?It's, capital T, The question. I have to imagine it all depends on the report we see. Was the investigation exhaustive and logical? And what did it turn up that we don't already know?
Urban will have lost time with the team, but the actual punishment will be minimal. The university will have taken its time, made its judgement. Maybe there’s a great dunping of positive OSU evidence, though it’ll probably take some good questions to media to bring that out. Maybe not.
I guess at the end, will those inside the OSU camp see it as a virulent question coming up and being dealt with, or as an injustice of sorts that it happened at all? And those more prone to be skeptical of OSU, will there be a sense of closure in the right process having been completed?
Even it that case, it stops being a one-time/first-time incident as soon as more rumors pop up. And even if those new rumors are not substantiated, the 2009 event was serious enough that any good "zero tolerance for serial abuse" policy would fire him after the first post-2009 rumor. Instead, it require umpteen post-2009 rumors. Oh, **and** for it to go public.I think that's pretty speculative. While I have never been a fan of Zach Smith, it isn't rare for organizations to take a closer look at things (1) when legal events occur (like arrests or charges) or (2) when the media is digging around. Things became legal this year, and the media dug around this year, and voila he's fired.
At this point, we should have very little faith that Zach Smith would have been fired even if the negative PR stain hadn't become intolerable for OSU.
All I said was that the texts corroborate the events. The ones from Courtney's mom establish that the mom believed Zach was a serial abuser. Full stop. The ones from Courtney are consistent with both she believing Zach is a serial abuser and he is essentially agreeing (certainly not denying). Full stop. Of course, none of these parties knew their texts would later become evidence. But I didn't call them proof. I called them corroborative.Courtney’s mom’s most recent take, given her now full knowledge of the entire situation is not corroborating her daughters story. Stop
They are a piece of documentation consistent with all the most negative narratives about Zach.
You are trying surprisingly hard to make it seem Zach Smith was not a good guy and not an awful guy but a juuuuust good enough guy to definitely deserve his job. When talking with people outside of Ohio (and, for obvious reasons, let's exclude Michigan), that's going to be lonely for you.
I think that's pretty speculative. While I have never been a fan of Zach Smith, it isn't rare for organizations to take a closer look at things (1) when legal events occur (like arrests or charges) or (2) when the media is digging around. Things became legal this year, and the media dug around this year, and voila he's fired.It's true, my sentence ("At this point, we should have very little faith that Zach Smith would have been fired even if the negative PR stain hadn't become intolerable for OSU.") was speculative. I never meant to hide that.
Courtney’s mom’s most recent take, given her now full knowledge of the entire situation is not corroborating her daughters story. StopHer mom and her daughter are now estranged. We should doubt her recent (since the estrangement) ad libbed takes more than her pre-estrangement) and documented ones. And that's beside the fact that it's a documented conversation with Zach ... that reads in the particularly damning way it does.
Your take on my position is exactly the opposite of correct. I have acknowledged that Zach is a scumbag. The real question is related to his boss, how much he knew, what he did about what he knew, and what is realistic to expect for him to control as far as the environment.
Her mom and her daughter are now estranged. We should doubt her recent (since the estrangement) ad libbed takes more than her pre-estrangement) and documented ones.I don't know about that. My read is that they are estranged because of her takes on the supposed abuse.
I don't know about that. My read is that they are estranged because of her takes on the supposed abuse.I don't know their family. I doubt most people do. But I find that inconsistent with normal human goings-on. You're saying that a mother who is documented expressing the belief that her daughter's husband is assaulting her daughter ... stopped talking to her daughter because her daughter believed her husband was assaulting her.
I don't know their family. I doubt most people do. But I find it inconsistent with normal human goings-on for a mother who is documented to believed her daughter's husband is assaulting her daughter to stop talking to her daughter because her daughter believes her husband is assaulting her.I think it's wacky too. Which is why I'm not going to hang Urban on the rack because he can't figure out a situation that no one else can figure out.
I don't know about that. My read is that they are estranged because of her takes on the supposed abuse.Supposedly they are estranged because of her daughters alcohol problems and emotional outbursts.
Urban is on the rack primarily for the environment he built, one where everyone else knew about these rumors of serial assault, the alcoholism, the lewdness, and - whether Urban was aware of those rumors or not - Zach was safe to hide and thrive.Yeah, but some of these problems are not like the others. It's not illegal or even immoral to be an alcoholic or take selfies. The only issue that, to me, is of any importance is about the abuse. I have not been a fan of how all of these issues get rolled into one, as if they are all of equal importance. They are not.
Urban is on the rack primarily for the environment he built, one where everyone else knew about these rumors of serial assault, the alcoholism, the lewdness, and - whether Urban was aware of those rumors or not - Zach was safe to hide and thrive.As usual-you are making a lot of assumptions. How do you know what everyone knew?
Supposedly they are estranged because of her daughters alcohol problems and emotional outbursts.Objection: Bucknuts message board conjecture, your honor.
I don't know their family. I doubt most people do. But I find that inconsistent with normal human goings-on.There's a lot of things said in the last few pages, but I find this humorously accurate.
Objection: Bucknuts message board conjecture, your honor.She said that in her radio interview. Point blank asked. This is what she said. I have never been on Bucknuts. The interview was with 97.1 in Cleveland.
If we are hitting a number of journalist's credibility on this one, I believe we can do the same for the anonymous basement-dwelling rube's rumors about the ex-wife.
Supposedly they are estranged because of her daughters alcohol problems and emotional outbursts.You need a better place for your crowbar. It's not a good look to keep piling on Courtney. Not just because it's unbecoming to pile on a victim but especially because she can be the most batshit crazy woman in Ohio and Zach would still have deserved to have been fired years ago. So you look bad piling on her AND doing so is not germane.
She said that in her radio interview. Point blank asked. This is what she said. I have never been on Bucknuts. The interview was with 97.1 in Cleveland.Wait. Why are you in Cleveland?
Yeah, but some of these problems are not like the others. It's not illegal or even immoral to be an alcoholic or take selfies. The only issue that, to me, is of any importance is about the abuse. I have not been a fan of how all of these issues get rolled into one, as if they are all of equal importance. They are not.They are separate but deserve to be stacked when the topic of deserving a job arises.
As usual-you are making a lot of assumptions. How do you know what everyone knew?Well among other reasons, because the owner and author of the most popular buckeye site on the web (Ramzy) said it explicitly.
It has already been reported that OSU had learned of these things and was in the process of terminating Smith. Something easy to validate.
Or, your assumptions could prove accurate- in which case I woul agree- and would agree with holding Meyer accountable.
But if you believe Saban or Harbaugh know everything about the personal lives of everyone on their staff- I would suggest you are quite naive.
You need a better place for your crowbar. It's not a good look to keep piling on Courtney. Not just because it's unbecoming to pile on a victim but especially because she can be the most batshit crazy woman in Ohio and Zach would still have deserved to have been fired years ago. So you look bad piling on her AND doing so is not germane.The mom said she saw Courtney try to run him over with a car. Which would make him a victim, too.
The mom said she saw Courtney try to run him over with a car. Which would make him a victim, too.That's not relevant to his job status. Even if she attacked him one or plural times, he didn't have license to serially assault her. Even if she acted criminally, Zach did enough to long ago lose his job. Which is all that is germane to Urban. Why did he get his job in 2012 or keep it, at the very latest, after the assault allegations of 2015?
That's not relevant to his job status. Even if she attacked him one or plural times, he didn't have license to serially assault her. Even if she acted criminally, Zach did enough to long ago lose his job. Which is all that is germane to Urban. Why did he get his job in 2012 or keep it, at the very latest, after the assault allegations of 2015?We'll find out soon, but if I had to guess it was because both the police and domestic court looked at the situation but did nothing, leaving OSU with little info to come to any sort of conclusion. Plus they had split up, which was a very good and important thing.
We'll find out soon, but if I had to guess it was because both the police and domestic court looked at the situation but did nothing, leaving OSU with little info to come to any sort of conclusion. Plus they had split up, which was a very good and important thing.That's the criminal burden of proof. Unlike the justice system, Urban was beholden to also be gravely concerned of new rumors. Further, even if he never heard other rumors, he is solely responsible for the environment he created. And if he never knew anything, but many other did, and a serial assaulter was permitted to hide and thrive as one of Urban's subordinates ... that's on Meyer, too.
You need a better place for your crowbar. It's not a good look to keep piling on Courtney. Not just because it's unbecoming to pile on a victim but especially because she can be the most batshit crazy woman in Ohio and Zach would still have deserved to have been fired years ago. So you look bad piling on her AND doing so is not germane.Your lack of objectivity is ver unbecoming and not like you.
That's the criminal burden of proof. Unlike the justice system, Urban was beholden to also be gravely concerned of new rumors. Further, even if he never heard other rumors, he is solely responsible for the environment he created. And if he never knew anything, but many other did, and a serial assaulter was permitted to hide and thrive as one of Urban's subordinates ... that's on Meyer, too.Domestic court does not have the responsibility of criminal burden of proof. Further, they have to conclude he was a serial abuser. Have there been such claims? To my knowledge no one has talked to any of his other intimate partners about the issue, and no reports have been made about him by anyone else.
Fact: Courtney claims she was abusedNo one doubts.
fact: her own mother says she was not, and she made it clear she would bring Urban downYou conveniently ignore that she earlier DOCUMENTED in text messages that he did abuse Courtney and was happy to reveal those to a journalist *after* she made contrary claims to Snook (the least credible journalist involved).
Fact: Zach mom gives eyewitness accounts of Courtney getting drunk and starting physical altercations, and even trying to run him overLet's have me accept that as true. Even then, it's in zero way germane to Urban and whether Zach deserved his job. As mentioned, Courtney could in theory be the most batshit crazy lady in Ohio and also be a victim of serial abuse and Zach, for that alone, will have not deserved his job. Whether she's crazy and even did illegal things of her own, therefore, is not an important data point.
Excluding 2009 and his DUI, that's true. But it's again irrelevant. After 2009, Urban's responsibilities had a lower burden of proof. He had to care about all rumors. He also had responsibility to build an environment in which, especially when "everybody knew" (Ramzy), to not hide a serial abuser and permit such a subordinate to thrive.
Fact: police never found a reason to arrest him, until the trespassing.
It is only you in this debate who has the arrogance to say what you just said. You heard the side of the story that is most appealing for the world you desire.Come on, irony.
Just because a person claims to be a victim does not mean they are, or that they are being honest.Again, you conveniently continue to sidestep what the owner/creator and lead author of the most popular buckeye website has said:
But you choose to take it as gospel, and completely rationalize away any other versions of what happened.
Fake? Huh?
I doubt anyone here is buying your fake outrage at me, nor does any person who has read my opinion think I am piling on the victim.
Where would Zach Smith go to find a jury that would give him favorable/impartial reference?Michigan?Not that Urbz would find anything impartial one way or another.Smith would have to be the farther out of it than Capt.Kirk to even think about itYou think Michigan is the place where Zach would get the *best* shot? I'd predict he'd get the best shot in Ohio. Though this wouldn't be a criminal thing with a jury, so that's not relevant. His argument would be that this is a he-said/she-said and his boss forced him out under duress of a phony investigation and that because this boss was never punished, the duress was undue, and the firing unjust.
Her mom and her daughter are now estranged. We should doubt her recent (since the estrangement) ad libbed takes more than her pre-estrangement) and documented ones. And that's beside the fact that it's a documented conversation with Zach ... that reads in the particularly damning way it does.Let me get this clear. so one incident in 2009 and nothing else as far as we know to 2012. Now qualifies as a "SERIAL" abuser. So he shouldn't have been hired in 2012. At least if you are going to speculate on the truth, get the speculation to line up with known facts.
You say Zach is a scumbag. But you also say he tooootally deserved his job from 2012 until precisely the end of July 2018. That is equivalent to saying "He's not a good guy, he's not total garbage, he had been juuuuust good enough to deserve his job."
You think he definitely deserved the job in 2012 (despite allegations that he not only was a documented serial abuser, but also a very bad football coach). You think he definitely deserved the job in 2015, despite those whirlwind allegations. You also seem to think he deserved his job despite flopping his penis about in the White House and having an inappropriate relationship with an OSU staffer who was ultimately relocated. You think he deserved to get this job and then keep it for a very long time.
Also, the real questions for Meyer aren't just about what he knew. He also has to answer for the environment he built, where - even if he didn't know - Zach was able to thrive out in the open and everyone else (ask Ramzy) knew.
They are separate but deserve to be stacked when the topic of deserving a job arises.Serial assault of a woman - Yes, but we have a he said, she said with the police deciding no charges with her mother siding with him.
Serial assault of a woman is grounds for firing.
Inappropriate relationships with subordinates is grounds for firing.
Genitalia selfies are grounds for firing.
Chronic alcoholics may not break the law but often deserve to be fired. Of course, Zach's alcoholism did break the law (DUI). He was also bad at coaching football, which may or may not be connected to his alcoholism but would deserve firing either way.
You think Michigan is the place where Zach would get the *best* shot? I'd predict he'd get the best shot in Ohio. Though this wouldn't be a criminal thing with a jury, so that's not relevant. His argument would be that this is a he-said/she-said and his boss forced him out under duress of a phony investigation and that because this boss was never punished, the duress was undue, and the firing unjust.So now you're making Urban's case for him?That's the problem he really couldn't have fired him when Law enforcement made no arrests.Not w/o a law suit anyway,what happened in 2009 is a mess. Courtney absolutely lied about Earle Bruce,he never drove down there to talk her out of charges/divorce.Earle's daughter(Zach's mother) did,Earle supposedly did go but visited with Urban.If Urban knew all that then send him packing
So now you're making Urban's case for him?That's the problem he really couldn't have fired him when Law enforcement made no arrests.Not w/o a law suit anyway,what happened in 2009 is a mess. Courtney absolutely lied about Earle Bruce,he never drove down there to talk her out of charges/divorce.Earle's daughter(Zach's mother) did,Earle supposedly did go but visited with UrbanI think it's clear that I don't think that case is trustworthy. But it's easy to assemble the arguments on either side of this. People, for all their complexities, are usually predictable. Especially when it comes to spin.
Let me get this clear. so one incident in 2009 and nothing else as far as we know to 2012. Now qualifies as a "SERIAL" abuser.Yes. Plural instances of domestic violence qualifies as serial assault. Therefore, after 2009, every new rumor added into a picture against Zach of alleged serial assault.
Yes. Plural instances of domestic violence qualifies as serial assault. Therefore, after 2009, every new rumor added into a picture against Zach of alleged serial assault.It so easy to not take you seriously right now.
Go back and notice the word "alleged." If you did notice it but didn't care, then ... neat for you.You did edit it a minute after posting - just saying
To be accused of multiple instances (rumors) of domestic violence is to allegedly be a serial abuser. There's plenty in this conversation that is up for debate. But if someone debates this one, that person is disagreeing with dictionaries.
You are certainly not wrong. Even in Ohio, being an at-will state, it has been incredibly difficult to terminate employees at times. It's not as cut and dry as many would like to think.
Having, at one time, 790 people in 14 states reporting to me( thru 45 managers an 4 division managers) I can tell you, the act of terminating anyone without clear and specific cause is often not only extremely difficult- it can lead to serious liability.
Yes. Plural instances of domestic violence qualifies as serial assault. Therefore, after 2009, every new rumor added into a picture against Zach of alleged serial assault.You have mentioned alleged, and even provided a definition of the word, but it seems in your view he is guilty of everything. I am going guess that Meyer does not share your view point, hence one of the many reasons why he did not get rid of the guy prior. In my background, I have worked with many people who should not have been where they were position wise, yet remained until something finally happened to remove them-be it retirement, or transfer or termination. That is what I read into this employment situation, not that Meyer turned a blind eye or built an environment that allowed this to occur.
You have mentioned alleged, and even provided a definition of the word, but it seems in your view he is guilty of everything. I am going guess that Meyer does not share your view point, hence one of the many reasons why he did not get rid of the guy prior. In my background, I have worked with many people who should not have been where they were position wise, yet remained until something finally happened to remove them-be it retirement, or transfer or termination. That is what I read into this employment situation, not that Meyer turned a blind eye or built an environment that allowed this to occur.If I was forced to bet on Zach's guilt, yeah, you've read me enough to know I'd have to decide that gambling against Zach is the best bet. But no one is forcing me to bet, obviously. So I'm sitting back and weighing just like you guys.
The media and people in general are lumping this whole situation into one simple issue and it is not one simple issue. Smith, like it or not, in the legal arena is innocent until proven guilty. In the court of public opinion he has already been convicted. Good thing we have both in this country, because I am sure a lot of us here would have been tar and feathered for some of the stuff we have done in our pasts, and not allowed to even breath if we followed your guidelines of righteousness.
My GUESS is the Board/President want something like a two game suspension and Meyer is saying no, you showed I did nothing wrong.why should he? if he followed protocol and is in the clear, there should be no punishment. hell, he's already missed 2+ weeks of coaching his team. that's got to have a detrimental effect on osu this season, at least early on.
They are now stuck.
They cave into Meyer and do nothing with bad optics or they come up with a way to fire him.
The board is concerned with optics. Meyer may not want to accept a penalty IF the investigation put him in the clear.
My GUESS is the Board/President want something like a two game suspension and Meyer is saying no, you showed I did nothing wrong.Just saw a Twitter post which says the board wants to completely reinstate him but the president is balking at that because Meyerdoes not want to serve any suspension and feels very strongly that he did nothing wrong
They are now stuck.
They cave into Meyer and do nothing with bad optics or they come up with a way to fire him.
The board is concerned with optics. Meyer may not want to accept a penalty IF the investigation put him in the clear.
My GUESS is the Board/President want something like a two game suspension and Meyer is saying no, you showed I did nothing wrong.They fire a coach a day before under less than sterling circumstances.And the best UFM comes up with "who makes up a story like that".He neither prepared himself or made himself aware.A major fail for what he makes.I'd call his bluff - time off w/o pay or walk.Hopefully the right decision is made
They are now stuck.
They cave into Meyer and do nothing with bad optics or they come up with a way to fire him.
The board is concerned with optics. Meyer may not want to accept a penalty IF the investigation put him in the clear.
My GUESS is the Board/President want something like a two game suspension and Meyer is saying no, you showed I did nothing wrong.so, no press conference or word from the meeting at this time?
They are now stuck.
Just saw a Twitter post which says the board wants to completely reinstate him but the president is balking at that because Meyer does not want to serve any suspension and feels very strongly that he did nothing wrongUrban being Urban
Urban being UrbanMaybe he feels strongly that he did everything right? Obviously- if the BOT feels that way too, it isn’t just Urban.
Urban being UrbanCareful ;)
Maybe he feels strongly that he did everything right? Obviously- if the BOT feels that way too, it isn’t just Urban.Maybe. Though from the start, we've consistently expected that the most serious actors involved were Drake and the investigators. So perhaps the most important unknown question is "Who do the investigators most agree with?" Drake or the BoT?
Scenario:If he's truly cleared (full reporting, even of rumors, and no toxic environment where a serial abuser could hide and remain employed), the reinstate him and apologize.
Investigation clears Urban of any contractural issues.
The Board and/or President want a something, 2 game suspension, whatever.
Meyer says NO!
What then?
Scenario:Scenario:
Investigation clears Urban of any contractural issues.
The Board and/or President want a something, 2 game suspension, whatever.
Meyer says NO!
What then?
Just saw a Twitter post which says the board wants to completely reinstate him but the president is balking at that because Meyerdoes not want to serve any suspension and feels very strongly that he did nothing wrongA good friend of mine just sent me this:
Fire 'em all - I'll take the gigI volunteer to be on your staff for $250K a year.
OSU and black eye are going to collide I fear.That's a pretty dark pun, cincy.
A good friend of mine just sent me this:Wow. I so want to know what the investigation found. Sounds like nothing.
My buddy is the VP of sales at 97.1 in Columbus and gave me this update:
Was told that this long deliberation was that the President wants to suspend Urban a few games due to the mess, not that he didn't follow protocol. Urban said no you either 1. Reinstate me 2. fire me and pay me or 3. I walk and you pay me.
Seems like this is the common rumor going around.
I volunteer to be on your staff for $250K a year.Hey Zach was making over 300k so you'll get at least that......provided you can behave yourself
I bet we could put together a good group out of here.
OSU and black eye are going to collide I fear.if that's their worry, then they need to get over it. they're already bloody and bruised, not much more could come out to make it worse.
Will we see the report's full text (with key redactions, of course) or only a set of bullet points/cursory summary?i think i read that they'll be releasing the full report along with the information gathered to make their judgements. though i could be confusing their statements and the maryland ones.
1. Reinstate me 2. fire me and pay me or 3. I walk and you pay me.Show Urbz a picture of Courtney's text to Shelley - see ya in two weeks
Seems like this is the common rumor going around.
i think i read that they'll be releasing the full report along with the information gathered to make their judgements. though i could be confusing their statements and the maryland ones.I know Maryland is doing that for certain. I'm not sure about it here. Drake did promise transparency, so I'm sure we'll at least get bullet points. The full report would obviously be more transparent but perhaps not what he meant.
Fire 'em all - I'll take the gigHa, I'm OK with this. I sincerely hope they make you the highest paid coach in the solar system. To prove their long term loyalty. :- )
If the ultimatum is true, I imagine the *actual* worst case scenario for OSU would be for the president to respond to the ultimatum by stepping down, because that's just not the kind of place where he belongs.You would feel differently if this was Harbaugh. He would say he standing up on principal knowing that he did everything he could’ve done and did all the proper reporting procedures. I have no doubt in my mind that’s the position you would take
If the ultimatum is true, I imagine the *actual* worst case scenario for OSU would be for the president to respond to the ultimatum by stepping down, because that's just not the kind of place where he belongs.I don't know anything about Drake if he's decent I'd hope the BoT wouldn't let that happen
But if you believe Saban or Harbaugh know everything about the personal lives of everyone on their staff- I would suggest you are quite naive.With all the staff "analysts" Saban has, he probably knows everything about MY personal life lol...
You would feel differently if this was Harbaugh. He would say he standing up on principal knowing that he did everything he could’ve done and did all the proper reporting procedures. I have no doubt in my mind that’s the position you would takeHa, I guess I don't need to post anymore. I just need to wait until you telepathically contribute my thoughts.
Just keep an eye on the Beer BwarbNah, Sark ain't on staff any more...
Ha, I guess I don't need to post anymore. I just need to wait until you telepathically contribute my thoughts.Or- if the evidence Supports the fact that the head football coach did nothing wrong and could not have done more but the president wants to punish him anyway for the sake of optics and the strange environment our country is in right now, then I don’t need to have telepathy to understand your take. You’re taking has been consistent, it’s been anti-urban Meyer from the very beginning and remain so now
Anyway, I think I've been pretty consistent that the most important aspect of a university is the academic sector, not the athletic one. I probably lean even moreso on that for Michigan than other schools. And were a President of a university to step down because he feels his authority had been subverted by the power of sports ...
Well, that'd be such an unprecedented and dark stain that the academic reputation of a university might never recover.
Nah, Sark ain't on staff any more...St Nick likes the finer things - just a heads up
Or- if the evidence Supports the fact that the head football coach did nothing wrong and could not have done more but the president wants to punish him anyway for the sake of optics and the strange environment our country is in right now, then I don’t need to have telepathy to understand your take. You’re taking has been consistent, it’s been anti-urban Meyer from the very beginning and remain so nowIf those were the precise facts (if the president is balking at Meyer without evidence, wishing to punish him for truly zero reason), then yeah, it'd would be "the best possible outcome" for OSU to just let that president step down.
Here's my take. I've largely dropped off this thread since Urban's public statement that he reported everything he needed to report.That's very similar to my sense, too.
My guess is that Courtney and Zach had major problems... And that neither of them were exactly clean. And that every time that something happened, the police couldn't basically make heads or tails of it, so Zach was never arrested and when Urban looked at it, he couldn't necessarily say that it was Zach's fault--and I'm sure Zach was telling him all the bad things she did.
This probably came to a head with the incidents in late 2015... Which didn't end up with arrests or charges filed. But it did end up with divorce proceedings.
I still think the way it shook out is that the 2015 allegations probably would have been enough to get rid of him, but the divorce largely "kicked the can" in the sense that if Urban believed Courtney was a big part of the problem, that the divorce would at least put that problem to rest. The risk drops significantly if they're not continuing to be married, right?
But the May 2018 criminal trespass and the protective order forced their hand. Obviously that meant that they couldn't have an amicable divorce, so the problems that should have gone away due to divorce were still raging.
If those were the precise facts (if the president is balking at Meyer without evidence, wishing to punish him for truly zero reason), then yeah, it'd would be "the best possible outcome" for OSU to just let that president step down.On this, we can agree. Drake has a great reputation and I agree, losing him would be worse both optically, and in real terms.
But let's spell out that scenario: That would mean that OSU hired a poor and unreasonable president. And the outside world would either look upon that detail with negativity or miss that nuance and STILL look upon it (as if sports subverted absolute university authority) with disdain. And the university's reputation would suffer, again, perhaps, irrevocably.
P.S. I'm not predicting this will happen. I'm just specifying that if Drake walks away, that is waaaaaay worse than Meyer walking away for Ohio State, the University.
P.P.S. Drake has a really positive reputation. The odds of your "Or if" scenario aren't good -- that he's standing up to Meyer for truly zero reason.
Good take Bwarb - IMO,the saving grace was that Meyer kept his former friends in money as long as he could.And contractually did the right thing,But I think Meyer never had to report up because Zach had already told Gene Smith.But I agree that the University should not show favor to a coach over it's president.If Meyer can't take a couple games then he doesn't give a shit about the university.Just because he totally faffed the media days presser he should pay them back for thatI should be clear that my assumptions are NOT that Urban made any of these decisions in a vacuum. I'm essentially taking him at his word that he reported up anything he should have.
Go back and notice the word "alleged." If you did notice it but didn't care, then ... neat for you.So being an alleged serial abuser is enough to fire him? So if I can get someone to allege something against you and I can present rumors that allege something about you. You should be fired.
To be accused of multiple instances (rumors) of domestic violence is to allegedly be a serial abuser. There's plenty in this conversation that is up for debate. But if someone debates this one, that person is disagreeing with dictionaries.
So being an alleged serial abuser is enough to fire him? So if I can get someone to allege something against you and I can present rumors that allege something about you. You should be fired.Yes, 2009 was an anchor that changed Zach's life forever. In terms of lawful termination, that went a long way to losing him the benefit of the doubt.
Again, one instance in 2009.
The longer this lasts, the worse any outcome will be for OSU.It seems like there's a really nasty impasse. I'm not sure this is primarily about Meyer anymore. It *feels* (I'm clearly guessing) like it's more about Drake v. BoT, with each side staking out how they do things and obstinately realizing how incompatible their perspectives are.
With all the staff "analysts" Saban has, he probably knows everything about MY personal life lol...Kinda hoping they fire meyer so we can get him for a year as an analyst. :)
At the presser, it was mentioned that in the case of the 2015 events, Gene Smith and Urban Meyer consulted together and ultimately chose not to pass it onto Compliance, as (apparently?) would be standard. I guess that's the crux of what's being punished.If that’s true, this is a bad look for OSU.
Maybe I am biased, but did Urban not come off as a 1st grader forced to write something on a chalk board? It was a series of run on sentences with his head down and a gun held up to him.I thought that in this situation he did his best to show grace. As the conference opened, he found it difficult to not shake his head left/right (as if feeling a reflexive "groan" or "no") when Drake was speaking, but when given the chance to speak, whereas it seemed (I'm guessing) he is feeling defiant, he suppressed that and spoke subserviently and with respect for Drake. That choked me up a bit, just normal empathy stuff, because it seemed obvious to me how difficult that moment was for him. And he handled it, probably, the best he possibly could.
If that’s true, this is a bad look for OSU.Bye Felicia.
I would respect Meyer more if he simply resigned.I am surprised that this began as an investigation into failed reporting, passed through a stage of administrative leave while figuring it out ... and then ended up as a verified story of failed reporting ... and the consequence is a stage of suspension, which is basically just administrative leave.
This is crap.
Bye Felicia.Really? First off, that four-letter acronym is maybe not the one you wanted to pick for this particular thread. Second, yes, it doesn't look good. OSU is trying and Drake seems like a damn good steward for you guys, so it'll eventually be fine, but don't blame Super for calling it like it is, especially when he words it so carefully ("if...then that's a bad look").
C U Next Time.
I haven't seen it, but man, this seems really odd. I guess we'll see how things go down in the long haul (hopefully well!) but in the short view this seems like more of a cowtow to public pressure as opposed to being based in any sound principles or decisions.Well said I agree.
For example, the report indicates both Smith and Meyer thought in good faith they didn't need to report because there was no arrest. However, Urban did report to his supervisor. It goes out of its way to say that if Urban thought there was domestic abuse he would have fired Smith.
I dunno, I'm strongly against weird half measures just to appease the public. That is definitely a result of working in criminal defense and seeing how people are treated as a result of that attitude. Right now, this seems like a weird half-measure to appease the public, as opposed to being based in any kind of principle or morality.
Maybe I am biased, but did Urban not come off as a 1st grader forced to write something on a chalk board? It was a series of run on sentences with his head down and a gun held up to him.You’re not the only one. Definitely wanted to get through that as quickly as possible.
Bye Felicia.This is an AWFUL representation!! The CAPS aren’t so subliminal.
C U Next Time.
Very interesting. Gene Smith stated he brought 2015 to Urban? Not the other way around? Also, Urban did not disclose the 2009 incident to Gene when 2015 came up.That is where my head was spinning.
I guess I’m confused what they were investigating then if this is the outcome.
So confused. If they feel it was his responsibility, why did he not get fired?A lot of people feel that way. I'm just not sure, but maybe the shared blame got them both off easier than if the blame had been unshared.
Seems like at least one of them, if not both, got off lightly.
Very interesting. Gene Smith stated he brought 2015 to Urban? Not the other way around? Also, Urban did not disclose the 2009 incident to Gene when 2015 came up.Shows me they did a piss poor background investigation, and for that I blame Gene Smith, considering it his job to make sure compliance is followed.
I guess I’m confused what they were investigating then if this is the outcome.
Shows me they did a piss poor background investigation, and for that I blame Gene Smith, considering it his job to make sure compliance is followed.Wouldn’t a very basic background investigation when hiring Smith, start and stop with the guy that is hiring him, that also had him on his staff at Florida, and knew about his 2009 arrest (strangulation of pregnant wife)? Gene Smith said Meyer did not tell him about that.
Wouldn’t a very basic background investigation when hiring Smith, start and stop with the guy that is hiring him, that also had him on his staff at Florida, and knew about his 2009 arrest (strangulation of pregnant wife)? Gene Smith said Meyer did not tell him about that.That is ultimately Gene Smith, he is the AD and responsible for the coaches. If he allowed a free range hire, without proper vetting, then he is responsible.
At a minimum Gene Smith seemed contrite tonight. He apologized and stated he was responsible for 2015.
Urban meyer breezed through a speed reading competition during his statement. The press conference abruptly ended with the Courtney Smith question, from which the answer is now the headline every news agency covering it is running with. I don’t understand how the PR team didn’t prep him for the Courtney question. No matter how he might feel about her, there were 100 ways he could have answered that better.
He stated he was a life long Buckeye, and that may be true, but will justify his move by saying something to the effect his faith brought to him to South Bend.Haha. RD, you’re a good dude. I’m not sure if you’re joking or serious, but that’s some funny foresight.
Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Texas, Penn State do not get the millions of dollars they do because of academic side of the program.That's right. They get millions for their revenue sports ... and BILLIONS from the academic side. The modern research complex at Big Ten institutions is at least one order of magnitude larger than the most lucrative athletic department.
his non verbal ques said a lot to me as the camera was focused on him, most telling was his head shake while President Drake read his statement.Yeah, I made the same observation (about the silent head shake when Drake spoke) as the presser unfolded. He was clearly defiant in spirit. But his words were scripted and he stuck with it. I chose to call that graceful. Politely deferring to an authority on a topic you don't believe in is HAARRRDDDD to pull off.
After watching Urban during the presser, his body language to me told a whole different story than the words coming out of his mouth. I have years of trained experience in reading body language, and his non verbal ques said a lot to me as the camera was focused on him, most telling was his head shake while President Drake read his statement. Urban's scripted response also said a lot to me, not just the wording but the manner in which he delivered the statement.That's all good and fine but I called him a bullshitter quite some time ago.Can I moonlight training one of those courses.UFM has an inflated view of himself,hell he was named after a Pope
That's right. They get millions for their revenue sports ... and BILLIONS from the academic side. The modern research complex at Big Ten institutions is at least one order of magnitude larger than the most lucrative athletic department.This much is true. Without looking I would hazard a guess that a handful of med device and pharma spin-offs our of Ohio State dwarf the the total athletic revenue over a 5-10 year period.
McMurphy's one mistake/stain in this process remains that he reported that Zach experienced a felony arrest in 2015, and yet at the end of July 2018, that was not true. He should probably let it go at this point, but I will admit the explanation is fascinating:And that it took til today to POST THE ARREST REPORT HE HAD!
"On July 24, the Powell, Ohio, Police Department released a “revised report” about the 2015 incident – nearly three years after the incident – and the Powell Police Department changed its original report and now had the arrest box unchecked in its “revised report.”
I asked Powell Police Chief Gary Vest and director of communications Megan Canavan why Powell Police changed the original report. They said because “the terminology was different.”
That didn’t make sense to me last month and it still doesn’t today: either you are arrested or you’re not. You’re pregnant or you’re not pregnant."
Maybe I am biased, but did Urban not come off as a 1st grader forced to write something on a chalk board? It was a series of run on sentences with his head down and a gun held up to him.It looked like Urban Meyer was the hostage in a hostage video. No matter what he thought of the proceedings, he should have avoided the appearance of playing the part of the hostage forced to read a statement.
And that it took til today to POST THE ARREST REPORT HE HAD!McMurphy is definitely playing his cards when it best suits HIM. I will say it’s interesting he actually had the report. A lot of folks were calling him a liar saying he made it up and no report existed.
An interesting nuance that came out in the investigation might explain why Urban is in trouble at all.This. I know everyone wants Urbans’s blood, but how does an AD at one of the nation’s most prominent sports colleges, not report this to compliance and still have a job?
Mary Jo White explained that (1) Gene told Urban about 2015 and (2) neither of themtold compliance. Ok, well we could ask, why was that Urban's responsibility at all, given that his superior was the one who told him in the first place. The lynchpin seems to be the wording that bridges (1) and (2): that they monitored the criminal investigation and discussed it for a series of months.
If it hadn't been for that, if instead they had only had one interaction about this with Gene relaying the info and then "get out of here, Urban, I'm taking over," I think Gene would have been fired for cause and Urban reinstated. But instead, the two of them went on to a phase of shared stewardship of the allegations. And both knew (and perhaps waffled over the fact that) Compliance was never called.
These revelations are many and seems sorta insane.Personal guess: he didn’t flub that question. He feels no remorse for her, as he probably feels that she did as much or more physical abuse than Zack did, and she waited until the right time to go after the entire program due to her anger at Zack.
Man Urbs was cool with letting Zach Smith slide. Also if I understand someone else's reading of it, Urbs talked about 2015 in the days leading up to Big Ten media days. Then did what he did. Then managed to flub the "what would you say to Courtney Smith" question someone had to know would come. Lordy.
dude wiped his cell phone. consider me suspicious af.Agreed reminds me of Brady.
Agreed reminds me of Brady.yeah. slightly deflated footballs and hiring degenerate scumbags and harboring domestic violence are totally =
yeah. slightly deflated footballs and hiring degenerate scumbags and harboring domestic violence are totally =I was being serious. Despite the severity of the alleged infractions, it looks shady to me.
Lulz.
Is it over?LOL we shall see. I was very worried the report would uncover all sorts of things unrelated to the issues at hand. Doesn't appear to!
Is it over?Unless McM has more sordid detail to air out, it’s over. Ohio State blames Meyer’s medication, and if you’re an Ohio State fan you’re OK with this because you’re a tool.
Meyer was very tense in that press conference. I wonder if his wife convinced him to stay when he was on the verge of quitting because he feels unfairly treated here.My gut is, at the crux of this, Meyer does not give CS claims much credibility.
Personal guess: he didn’t flub that question. He feels no remorse for her, as he probably feels that she did as much or more physical abuse than Zack did, and she waited until the right time to go after the entire program due to her anger at Zack.He probably is. And he should know. That report tells us a good bit.
In other words, he has probably heard and seen more evidence to suggest that she has some serious alcohol and emotional issues. He is probably thinking, how did these two twisted idiots get me into this.
Not saying I agree, or that is true, but it wouldn’t surprise me. Clearly, he didn’t take the charges too seriously in terms of believing them, and that’s based on his conversations with the police, Zack, and others who knew them.
He probably is. And he should know. That report tells us a good bit.I am not defending him, quite opposite really.
For all the talk of leading men, he's just not willing to take responsibility. It's fine. Most people don't. Perhaps I'm reading your tone wrong, but it sounds like he knows more, and can't help but let that bleed through. He did always have trouble not showing some true ugliness in public, but he's a professional. At his age, after all this, he can fake it for half a second.
Let's put it this way, he's told a third-choice running back who isn't as good as last year's recruit or next years the things he needs to hear. He can do that for that question. Unless we want to know the true Urban, but that Urban probably isn't worth defending.
Meyer was very tense in that press conference. I wonder if his wife convinced him to stay when he was on the verge of quitting because he feels unfairly treated here.I didn't see/here any of last nite as I was in that precious part of the nite that unless the house was on fire I was in unwind mode.But if he really felt like quitting I wish he had followed thru.In many aspects he made this bed but the program has to sleep in it.Faffing that press conference alone in so many ways was worth a crippling fine
It is interesting to me that a HC who retains an employee who has "issues" (and is underperforming) gets sanctioned by the university. The employee did not nearly as I can discern commit a crime of which he was convicted or charged.It was super bizarre, and I'm not sure how Meyer will be coming out of it. He's never responded especially well to negativity.
I wonder how much residual effect this will have on Coach Meyer going forward. He seemed VERY tense and unhappy. I suppose that will wear off, but will anything linger? I am guessing he was on the verge of quitting and maybe his wife calmed him down?
This whole thing is bizarre to me, especially the long delay in announcing the finding.
I wish @CoachQ (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1661) would log in and jump in this conversation... He know's Urban Meyer, personally,Who in the wide,wide world of sports is that?
if you’re an Ohio State fan you’re OK with this because you’re a tool.I call dibs on being a Halligan Bar.
Unless McM has more sordid detail to air out, it’s over. Ohio State blames Meyer’s medication, and if you’re an Ohio State fan you’re OK with this because you’re a tool.Put that thing out you'll burn your fingers.Pretty sure the previous 28 pages indicated that this wasn't the case.So outside of your post being pretty much full of shit - it was a great post
I call dibs on being a Halligan Bar.
It is interesting to me that a HC who retains an employee who has "issues" (and is underperforming) gets sanctioned by the university. The employee did not nearly as I can discern commit a crime of which he was convicted or charged.Can you expand a little on this? I think I have a response, but I might be missing the point.
Something was going on in that room between 1 PM when they made the decision and when they came out of the room.The long term dynamics with both Urban Meyer and the President will be interesting to follow. Gene Smith will be the cushion in between. There was a pretty clear blow by from Urban at the end of the press conference with the President. I wouldn’t be surprised to see any of the three hit the road in the next 6 - 12 months.
I'm pretty sure that something was convincing Meyer to take the punishment. Meyer may well have been on the verge of quitting. Perhaps his wife talked him out of it.
His demeanor at the presser was striking, very very tense. He kept asking for questions to be repeated almost as if he was running clock wanting it to be over. He also did not respond directly to the question asked in many cases.
How this may impact his attitude and coaching going forward will be interesting.
for some perspective.... Pryor received 5 games for tattoos.but, that was an NCAA infraction
but, that was an NCAA infractionlol...
You could see it in his eyes. He firmly believes in the principles he espouses, he believes he is helping young men be better, he personally tries to live it and breath it, and feels that he has done so much good for so many.BS
for some perspective.... Pryor received 5 games for tattoos.A discount on tattoos, he was suspended 5 games for receiving a discount on tattoos. Trading a gold trinket for a lower price on a tattoo, was a privilege gained by being a football player that wasn't extended to non-student athletes.
BSSo are you saying he thinks he wants to left alone (we agree on this part) because he feels like his ends justify his means and he shouldn’t be bothered —-or are you saying he feels he should be left alone because he did everything he was supposed to do?
I could see something in his eyes, but it wasn't principles he espouses
his eyes told me he believes people should leave him alone to run his program and stay out of his way
but, that was an NCAA infractionand also not self-penalized.
Urban Meyer: "Most of what I know about Zach Smith is work-related... my biggest regret is I wish I would have known more. Had I known more, I would have taken action must quicker."This,he should have said they're both poor trampled cabbage leaves and let him go.JMO Meyer probably felt if he made it public why Smith was let go it definitely would have affected their income or quality of life.Because whatever happens to Zach financially happens to his ex.Kind of a no win situation - but Meyer painted himself into that corner
Last week Urban and his wife were talking about how they counseled a young couple. This week, he only knows him from work.
Looking back on it I don’t think Meyer or Gene Smith needed to be at the conference last night. Have them both release well crafted PR statements and prop the President, a trustee, and the lead investigator up there.Spot on!One would think they learned their lessons last month,Why risk adding insult to injury
BSThis.
I could see something in his eyes, but it wasn't principles he espouses
his eyes told me he believes people should leave him alone to run his program and stay out of his way
No doubt the media will be all over this looking for more dirt, any dirt, even at times speculative made up dirt.this type of pressure caused Doctor Tom to retire after the 97 season
I don't know if Meyer will survive as HC past this season because of the barrage of questions and revelations that he will face. I'm sure he will say "I am here to talk about OSU football, nothing else.", but the questions will be hammered at him anyway, even at half time when they usually use coachspeak.
The irony in the decision and punishment, if there is one, is that by trying to take the middle ground with a suspension Ohio State has appeased virtually no one. That is why I thought it was all or nothing from the get go.I'm back and forth on that. The way the news cycle goes now things move pretty fast, and after the national media excretes their boilerplate editorials they will move on.
On one side you have the die hard scarlet & gray now calling for the President’s job, feeling like Meyer is a scapegoat to align with the SJW crowd. See former player and well regarded alum Matt Finkes for an example.
On the other side you have the national media and everyone outside of Ohio marching with their pitchforks, including some former players for Ohio State.
The problem now is this story will persist. David Pollack noted as much. Media members will poke and prod at every angle. They will revisit Chris Rainey, Percy Harvin, and Aaron Hernandez. They will dig deeper on Carlos Hyde and if Zeke had any history while in Columbus. They will seek the admin assistant or her ex-spouse / spouse for an expose. This isn’t Baylor, but with the decision made, there is significant risk that this hangs like a cloud over the school for some time. Death by a thousand paper cuts.
You can bet your bottom dollar Zach Smith isn't the only douchebag to be employed by a football team.that's for DARNED sure
This.to a point I agree.
The s*** you have to deal with being a big time college football coach. The travel, the limited family time, the win-at-all-costs, how you have to kiss the a** of some 17 year old who never did a damn thing in his life, and turn around and kiss the a** of a 70 year old who never played a down in his life. I'm sure there's a spectrum, but I'm guessing to be a big time head football coach kind of necessitates being a not great guy because of the nature of the job description. Probably why a couple of good guys I know within the profession have no desire to be head coaches.
That said, it's his program. Whatever Zach Smith did or didn't do, he's not in jail. He's free to be employed. I don't think employing someone like that is a firable offense. But it speaks to the type of program you want to run. If Meyer is ok with that, that's his prerogative. It's not how I'd run my program, but it's not my program. I don't think it speaks to OSU fans for continuing to root for their school, nor should they feel obliged to if they don't want to. I know MSU coaches have often done things that I would not do if it was my program, most recently reinstating Reschke. But it's not my program, and absent any sort of cover up of a crime, I sort of think these guys can put whoever they want on their staff or their rosters, but then deal with whatever harm comes to their reputation for doing so. I'm long past thinking these guys are motivating by molding young men or any BS like that. They want to win football games. They are all egotistical enough to probably do just enough that it doesn't harm their legacies, but not for any sort altruistic reasons.
Good post. I think where it ultimately rubs people the wrong way is when guys like Urban sit on a soap box and talk down to the general public, their players and anyone that will listen about the moral code they should live by, while not adhering to any of it themselves.
That said, it's his program. Whatever Zach Smith did or didn't do, he's not in jail. He's free to be employed. I don't think employing someone like that is a firable offense. But it speaks to the type of program you want to run. If Meyer is ok with that, that's his prerogative. It's not how I'd run my program, but it's not my program. I don't think it speaks to OSU fans for continuing to root for their school, nor should they feel obliged to if they don't want to. I know MSU coaches have often done things that I would not do if it was my program, most recently reinstating Reschke. But it's not my program, and absent any sort of cover up of a crime, I sort of think these guys can put whoever they want on their staff or their rosters, but then deal with whatever harm comes to their reputation for doing so. I'm long past thinking these guys are motivating by molding young men or any BS like that. They want to win football games. They are all egotistical enough to probably do just enough that it doesn't harm their legacies, but not for any sort altruistic reasons.
I think Meyer will ultimately walk away, and mostly because he will feel he does not need this, does not agree with it and will not want to deal with the constant Media mouthpieces who just need clicks, and even today are quoting misstatements about what actually was uncovered.as Cinci said he left FLA that way but I'm sure he might have walked had he not done it before.
I would not be surprised if it happens in the next week or so.
Question to ELA or Sam - both being attorney's.Would McMurphy be libel if he accepted information if Zach Smiths Amazon account was hacked,those invoice copies? - just curiousI'm surprised I haven't seen the Pentagon Papers thrown out there incorrectly yet.
A discount on tattoos, he was suspended 5 games for receiving a discount on tattoos. Trading a gold trinket for a lower price on a tattoo, was a privilege gained by being a football player that wasn't extended to non-student athletes.perhaps it is just my perspective on the world... but discounted tattoos seems better than ignoring what Smith did. It was more of a statement of how messed up we are in our priorities.
That's apples to oranges comparison though.
More apt would be comparing this to Tressel getting fired for signing a form stating he was unaware of any infractions being committed by his team.
It's not a matter of what's better or worse but what is encoded in the "law".But it should be.. if the "law" is that broken, perhaps it is time to fix. Discounts = 5 games. Hiding an abuser, lying and ignoring you're own philosophy on behaviors towards women = less
But it should be.. if the "law" is that broken, perhaps it is time to fix. Discounts = 5 games. Hiding an abuser, lying and ignoring you're own philosophy on behaviors towards women = lessThe alternative- having the NCAA govern this sort of issue- is far worse than accepting that there is a degree of ludicrousness to comparing it with bylaw infractions.
The alternative- having the NCAA govern this sort of issue- is far worse than accepting that there is a degree of ludicrousness to comparing it with bylaw infractions.I think I fall more on this side. The NCAA struggles enough to enforce their own bylaws, I'd rather they stay out of this.
The alternative- having the NCAA govern this sort of issue- is far worse than accepting that there is a degree of ludicrousness to comparing it with bylaw infractions.one alternative is to start over.... another is not to have an NCAA and just admit schools really don't care.. there really is more than one.
The whole thing is rather confusing to me. What is the official reason given by OSU for UM's punishment?the press conference gave no answers to anything. the University, the AD, and the head coach all admitted to making mistakes and not handling things properly.
What is it most here think Meyer did wrong and got punished for?Urban allowed the program and therefore the university to be cast in a very negative light in the national media.
What is the official reason given by OSU for UM's punishment?Mary Jo White mentioned six-points of findings at the podium. Most of them were generous to Gene/Urban, but the errors were:
Is it about not reporting DV up the line? Gene Smith knew about it apparently.
I lean to thinking Meyer was on the verge of telling them to shove it, maybe he did and got talked out of that step.Agreed. I think Urban probably mulled quitting. Frankly, the president may have as well. I think there's a fair chance that none of the three are there in August 2019. However, I think each of them are at least at 50/50 and that Drake is the most likely to stay.
Someone, his wife?, may have said "Give it time, don't make a rash decision."
He quit at Florida as I recall and then "unquit" before he quit again. Maybe he recalls that step and didn't want to do it rashly, but perhaps after a week of contemplation, he weighs his duty to his team and his legacy and decides it's not worth it. I don't know about his physical health.
The story isn't over.
I think I fall more on this side. The NCAA struggles enough to enforce their own bylaws, I'd rather they stay out of this.Mgoblog wrote something today that I thought was nuanced/smart.
Mgoblog wrote something today that I thought was nuanced/smart.Well thought out. I agree, especially the paragraph regarding what happens when these enclaves come up against societies bigger issues.
The crux was that out of revenue self-interest the NCAA has pushed the notion of "amateurism" at all costs. And that one of these costs is an environment in which perhaps every good player is getting some impermissible benefits under the table. Furthermore, it's clear that each program, at worst, considers this a joke or, at best, cares but after sending the boilerplate "don't do it" ultimately has to look the other way, or at least not stare too hard.
In other words, the NCAA is the central culprit of a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" silence. That on its own doesn't really matter right? Because in a capitalistic society players trying to earn closer to their market value is not an illegal act, and (rule-breaking aside) not an ethical issue, either.
But what happens when these little sports enclaves with their cultures of silence brush up against true legal and unethical issues, like sexual abuse or domestic violence? Recent evidence, shows how ugly that mixture can be.
The answer to fixing this is to eliminate our cultures of silence. I'm persuaded that, HIGHLY INDIRECTLY, of course the NCAA is the largest force at fault.
My questions: Now that amateurism has brought us these cultures of silence, are they engrained, or can they go away if amateurism goes away? How long until we start over, without amateurism, perhaps without the NCAA?
I think I fall more on this side. The NCAA struggles enough to enforce their own bylaws, I'd rather they stay out of this.This.
Mgoblog wrote something today that I thought was nuanced/smart.not that i disagree with anything said there, but this isn't isolated to cfb, fb, or even sports in general. multiple other sports, both amateur and professional, as well as the entertainment industry (movies, tv, music) have all had scandals of abuse (sexual and dv) pop up in the recent past.
The crux was that out of revenue self-interest the NCAA has pushed the notion of "amateurism" at all costs. And that one of these costs is an environment in which perhaps every good player is getting some impermissible benefits under the table. Furthermore, it's clear that each program, at worst, considers this a joke or, at best, cares but after sending the boilerplate "don't do it" ultimately has to look the other way, or at least not stare too hard.
In other words, the NCAA is the central culprit of a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" silence. That on its own doesn't really matter right? Because in a capitalistic society players trying to earn closer to their market value is not an illegal act, and (rule-breaking aside) not an ethical issue, either.
But what happens when these little sports enclaves with their cultures of silence brush up against true legal and unethical issues, like sexual abuse or domestic violence? Recent evidence, shows how ugly that mixture can be.
The answer to fixing this is to eliminate our cultures of silence. I'm persuaded that, HIGHLY INDIRECTLY, of course the NCAA is the largest force at fault.
My questions: Now that amateurism has brought us these cultures of silence, are they engrained, or can they go away if amateurism goes away? How long until we start over, without amateurism, perhaps without the NCAA?
not that i disagree with anything said there, but this isn't isolated to cfb, fb, or even sports in general. multiple other sports, both amateur and professional, as well as the entertainment industry (movies, tv, music) have all had scandals of abuse (sexual and dv) pop up in the recent past.That's fair. I crafted a post that accidentally argued that the NCAA is necessary and sufficient for this kind of culture of silence. You're right. A better argument is that it's not necessary, only sufficient. In other words, the NCAA is a strong exacerbator of something that is otherwise already a societal problem.
so i'm not so sure it's just the ncaa culture of 'hush hush' paying players under table that's generated the "culture of silence". and i don't really have an answer for what IS generating it, but it's permeated more than just amateur athletics.
Mgoblog wrote something today that I thought was nuanced/smart.Thanks for sharing.
The crux was that out of revenue self-interest the NCAA has pushed the notion of "amateurism" at all costs. And that one of these costs is an environment in which perhaps every good player is getting some impermissible benefits under the table. Furthermore, it's clear that each program, at worst, considers this a joke or, at best, cares but after sending the boilerplate "don't do it" ultimately has to look the other way, or at least not stare too hard.
In other words, the NCAA is the central culprit of a culture of "see no evil, hear no evil" silence. That on its own doesn't really matter right? Because in a capitalistic society players trying to earn closer to their market value is not an illegal act, and (rule-breaking aside) not an ethical issue, either.
But what happens when these little sports enclaves with their cultures of silence brush up against true legal and unethical issues, like sexual abuse or domestic violence? Recent evidence, shows how ugly that mixture can be.
The answer to fixing this is to eliminate our cultures of silence. I'm persuaded that, HIGHLY INDIRECTLY, of course the NCAA is the largest force at fault.
My questions: Now that amateurism has brought us these cultures of silence, are they engrained, or can they go away if amateurism goes away? How long until we start over, without amateurism, perhaps without the NCAA?
Agree. Sometimes it is very clear... like a player eating a ham sandwich at an event for free or a coach watching porn on his state issued device. Other times, these start to bleed between all three. Though I'd argue the NCAA's main goal image.
What it seems we’re talking about is three mostly separate worlds that sometimes interact:
-NCAA, which is aimed at enforcing amateurism, players’ rights, other piddling things.
-the legal world. Courts, lawyers, judges, actual laws
-The HR world, which would be an institutions’ own policies.
Hits just keep on coming.According to 11 Warriors Zack Smith is saying he spent the night at the Strip Club in 2014 with Tom Herman using the Company Card.I just wish Meyer had stepped down his protege Smith is leaving steaming piles everywherePretty sure it was at his own expense.
Pretty sure it was at his own expense.Yeah, the report mentioned him going to a Miami strip club that year and paying on his own. The investigators were, however, worried it might be an NCAA violation, because it looked like this was part of the spiel with the high school coaches he brought. I'm not sure which rule that would violate, though.
I think the only hanging chad is that female subordinate of Zach's who (1) he had a sexual relationship with and who (2) was then switched to another department. Without more info, it doesn't make sense to speculate on specific outcomes, but there are several ways for that to become a bad story.Many, MANY ways for that to become a bad story.
I think the issues with that strip club story are:also, I enjoy Tom Herrman's name being brought up occasionally
(a) Can a CFB coach give a HS coach inducements during recruiting?
Heck NO
(b) does a free meal or strip club experience count as an inducement?
Heck YES
(c) Was the $600 tab just for Zach, or was the full tab for the group?
Let me Guess
(...)Yes
But if he was screwing a staffer, possibly one with which he enjoyed some sort of power imbalance as a member of the coaching staff, and they transferred her while keeping him on staff? That could get ugly. Especially if they transferred her to protect her from his aggressive, jealous, or potentially violent behavior... But if that were the case, then this could become a nuclear story.
And I don't get Gene Smith... Do you have control of your athletic department, or not?Urban came close to being fired/retiring/quitting. Gene must have come even closer to a firing than that.
After 2015, after truancy, after [failed] rehab, you tell Urban "Fire Zack Smith, or I will do it for you."
You don't "recommend" he get rid of him, and when Urban continues to protect him, let it slide.
I think that's partly correct NOB but one part is close to fully incorrect. The main finding Meyer is being punished for is failure to report the 2015 DV allegations to compliance. (For discussing them with Gene for months but not moving them up the chain)I get it. However, while listening to the Q&A at the presser, Tim May (Columbus Dispatch beat reporter) asked Gene Smith and Urban about who was responsible for kicking this to compliance. Before Urban could answer, Smith chimed in and stated that it was his job to go to compliance. Tim May then followed up with something to the effect that if it was the AD's job take the matter to compliance, why is Urban on the hot seat for that.
Was Meyer supposed to make that report to Compliance in 2015 by contract or policy? I was not clear on that point.I believe his contract states he has report...
I get it. However, while listening to the Q&A at the presser, Tim May (Columbus Dispatch beat reporter) asked Gene Smith and Urban about who was responsible for kicking this to compliance. Before Urban could answer, Smith chimed in and stated that it was his job to go to compliance. Tim May then followed up with something to the effect that if it was the AD's job take the matter to compliance, why is Urban on the hot seat for that.
That makes me believe that UM is really being punished, not for failure to report the specific 2015 incident to compliance, but more for ignoring the warning signs of ZS's poor judgement since 2009 and allowing him to remain on staff.
I think the media has it wrong when they expect Meyer to apologize to her. She should be thanking him for putting his career and reputation on the line to keep her husband employed hoping that they could work out the marriage, and then after the marriage ended, keeping the checks coming from his job. .That I agree with IMO Meyer new if their problems became public firing Zach would have been put them in a bad place.That's on Urbs though - he ended up putting the University there instead
The investigators were no doubt generous to Urban when it came to those medications.Medications my ass if he'd stick to the truth that's all he'd have to remember
Zach Smith got 50 or so “last warnings.” The leash just kept getting longer with each screw up. That’s usually a novice move by a parent with a toddler, not something you deploy with a grown ass man responsible for 18-19 year olds, making $400k a year.Agreed 100%. As a parent, I know full well that if you never follow up with the punishment that you threaten, the behavior never improves.
If there is another bomb to drop it will be the admin assistant for Zach Smith. The investigative media army will pursue that one fully, now that the door has been opened with yesterday’s decision. Her name is all over social media, and her husband / ex-husband was on a scornful Twitter tirade against Urban, before wiping his account in the last week.
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/b502/AkronBuck/s0/1cb75578-9eb2-4304-8fb0-07f61adb4d5d-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)Your last two contributions to this topic have been consistent, if nothing else. First, a beyond vulgar acronym. Now, a meme mocking domestic violence. Not a great representation of “The Buckeye Nation” referenced at the press conference last night.
I was expecting horrible backlash, but it is ten times worse than I anticipated. Virtually every tweet, talking head and call in radio voice is treating Meyer like the lowest form of human life. Honestly, the treatment of Art Briles- who covered up years of substantial sex abuse, was not this bad. Perhaps is because of OSU stature compared to Baylor?? It just surprises me in relation to whatever you could say Urban did/ or didn’t do wrong. It just seems out of proportion. Perhaps it is because many have bought the now false narrative that he covered up DV?Really? Is it possible that you just didn't see it as this bad because you're an OSU fan, not a Baylor fan?
Really? Is it possible that you just didn't see it as this bad because you're an OSU fan, not a Baylor fan?No, it was clear today. And no I don’t think the issues at OSU even come close to what happened at Baylor. Why- do you?
I seemed to think that the Baylor stuff was popping up in a lot more media than just college sports media. Not as much as Sandusky or Nassar, but a HECK of a lot more than Urban.
And in some ways, he did cover up DV. He didn't mention the 2009 stuff to Gene. He [nor Gene] reported the 2015 incident to compliance. They said it was because there were no formal charges. But the other aspect of the report was that he just thought Courtney made it all up. He didn't believe there was DV, or didn't want to believe it, so he kept the 2009 matter out of everyone's knowledge and the 2015 matter out of the university's compliance team. He kept the experts from knowledge that would have allowed them to uncover a truth he didn't want to find.
Urban and Gene appointed themselves judge, jury, and executioner.Even though I wouldn’t have fired him solely for the reason of the DV allegations, I would fire him for the overall trend of not reporting, erasing phone texts, and allowing ZS to do too much bad stuff.
They judge Zack innocent and held Courtney in contempt. As jury the found leniency for themselves and pass the light sentence base on their instructions to themselves.
(https://beta-static.photobucket.com/images/b502/AkronBuck/s0/1cb75578-9eb2-4304-8fb0-07f61adb4d5d-original.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)Hey! You're finally coming out of it. No four letter slurs this time.
No, it was clear today. And no I don’t think the issues at OSU even come close to what happened at Baylor. Why- do you?No, I don't think the issues at OSU come even close to Baylor. What I'm saying is that my perception [as a Purdue fan, not tied to either school] was that the news coverage and outrage over Baylor was much larger than OSU. I'm saying I'm surprised that you seem to perceive the opposite; that it's worse for OSU.
All I am saying is that the level of unanimous hatred was a bit of a surprise to me. People are talking like Meyer committed multiple rapes.
Also, I stated my reasons, as did the committee as to why I don’t think he covered up DV, but also I stated my reasons why I would have fired him. He didn’t. In fact, the DV at this juncture is an allegation.Again, I'm saying he believes he didn't cover up DV because he didn't believe it existed. Apparently neither he nor Shelley found Courtney credible. And because there were no formal charges filed against Zach, he didn't believe he was required to report it.
- the broad level, and depth of hatred for him, surprised me. I get that some of it is just mob mentality/ political correctness, and some of it is the natural process in our society of brininging down high successful people, especially for fans if that person is your enemy.
I get it. However, while listening to the Q&A at the presser, Tim May (Columbus Dispatch beat reporter) asked Gene Smith and Urban about who was responsible for kicking this to compliance. Before Urban could answer, Smith chimed in and stated that it was his job to go to compliance. Tim May then followed up with something to the effect that if it was the AD's job take the matter to compliance, why is Urban on the hot seat for that.That's according to one of the suspects of the investigation and not an investigator. Fortunately, we don't have to guess. We have the document and investigator Mary Jo White also spoke last night...
That makes me believe that UM is really being punished, not for failure to report the specific 2015 incident to compliance, but more for ignoring the warning signs of ZS's poor judgement since 2009 and allowing him to remain on staff.
From the presser portion delivered by Mary Jo White (Investigator), these items were emphasized:
- Meyer was aware of the allegations from 2015. He was informed of them by Gene Smith.
- Both Urban and Gene regularly monitored the situation for a series of months and noted that it did not result in a law enforcement charges. However, they never reported this knowledge to Compliance.
- "In the Domestic Violence context especially, there are many cases in which abuse takes place but there is no arrest or criminal prosecution and so simply relying on law enforcement to take action in the face of such allegations is not an adequate response.”
- Meyer did not deliberately lie at Media Days. Investigators found that Urban did not fully recall in 2018 what he knew in 2015, and had been focused on overturning an erroneous felony arrest report (unspecified: McMurphy’s mistake) and was otherwise unprepared.
- Meyer showed good respect for women and cooperation through the investigation
- A number of instances of misconduct and other problematic conduct performed by Zach Smith while at OSU, some of which was known by Meyer and Smith and some of which was not.
This is being twisted by some into a story line that Meyer condoned DV.This came up even before the investigation, actually:
That is a hot button item obviously.
Was Meyer supposed to make that report to Compliance in 2015 by contract or policy? I was not clear on that point.
Urban’s first reaction to all of this, when it hit the fan, was how to wipe text messages off his phone. And it’s clear from the investigative report that his director of football ops disclosed that conversation. That will be one heck of a working relationship going forward.I think, perhaps worse than deleting those texts, was that the investigators learned that Brian Voltolini (Urban's Director of Football Operations) came up with the idea and told Meyer to do it. I said perhaps, because I don't actually know what's worse or all the missing details. But when crucial documents go missing at just the right time, certain evidence of a two-party conspiracy to destroy those documents is at least as damning as the fact that the documents are missing in the first place.
He has been destroyed, permanently. He will never be highly regarded again. That is going to sink in to him over the coming days, and I strongly suspect he will resign. He has no reason to go on, as more wins and accomplishments on the field will not change the media and public perception of him.It has become a real possibility. Unthinkable just a month ago.
Wisconsin and Michigan will play twice this year, and the winner of that second game will go to the CFP!Whoa there buddy. It'll take a lot more than preseason drama for Michigan to get there. This East-sided quad battle (OSU, M, MSU, PSU) should be incredible.
No, I don't think the issues at OSU come even close to Baylor. What I'm saying is that my perception [as a Purdue fan, not tied to either school] was that the news coverage and outrage over Baylor was much larger than OSU. I'm saying I'm surprised that you seem to perceive the opposite; that it's worse for OSU.Yes- I think we are on the same page.
I suggested that might be because you're closer to OSU and other sources--and I'm not sure where you live, bit if it's Ohio, this is obviously going to be bigger news there than elsewhere too. I was suggesting you MIGHT have a skewed version of how big and vitriolic the news is nationally due to that.
I could be wrong. I got off most social media a while ago, so maybe this has blown up in a way I just haven't seen.
Again, I'm saying he believes he didn't cover up DV because he didn't believe it existed. Apparently neither he nor Shelley found Courtney credible. And because there were no formal charges filed against Zach, he didn't believe he was required to report it.
But I'm saying that this is exactly why we don't put football coaches in charge of adjudicating whether DV occurred. That's why he's supposed to report to compliance. It's why at my job if I hear of something like this, I'm required to report to HR, even if the person disclosing it begs me not to. Because my job trusts me to be an engineer, not to be an expert on DV.
I'm saying the net effect of Meyer's action is to cover up potential DV, because he kept it out of the eyes of people who know a lot more than him about DV. The Compliance office doesn't try to tell him how to attack a fire zone blitz on 3rd and 9. But the exchange for that is that they don't expect him to determine what things are or are not DV--he's required to report it to them.
He failed to do that, and the net effect was that this entire situation was covered up until this year.
I think he screwed up. I feel like the OSU investigation was determined to find in his favor, and excused him from blame on some highly sketchy reasons.
But again, I'm a Purdue fan. I don't hate him. I was the one who basically stepped out of this whole discussion once he publicly stated that he follows all reporting protocols, which turned out not to be true. I even created a plausible alternate hypothesis for why Smith wasn't fired--because the divorce "fixed" the issue as they were no longer married and thus any future DV risk was lessened.
It turns out, though, that he didn't follow reporting protocols. He didn't report a lot of Zach's bad behavior to anyone. He harbored a creepy douchebag who was violating OSU policies at best--and who was also a domestic abuser at worst--because he felt bad over Earl Bruce.
It has become a real possibility. Unthinkable just a month ago.Whoa there buddy. It'll take a lot more than preseason drama for Michigan to get there. This East-sided quad battle (OSU, M, MSU, PSU) should be incredible.That’s just my prediction- and was before the OSU fiasco. I just like those two teams to go the distance this season. I didn’t say it w be easy.
No, it was clear today. And no I don’t think the issues at OSU even come close to what happened at Baylor. Why- do you?I agree this backlash is really bad. But I think you are forgetting the Baylor backlash. It was worse, IMO. Proportionately so. And bled into many more media markets. Today, for example, this showed up as a news item in several non-sports news markets. But the thing with Briles seemed to receive more news along the way at those sites *and* scathing editorials. Today, Urban is facing scathing editorials, but they aren't coming from Fox/CBS/ABC/CNN as they seemed to for Briles. That happened on an even bigger scale if you can believe it.
Also, I stated my reasons, as did the committee as to why I don’t think he covered up DV, but also I stated my reasons why I would have fired him. He didn’t. In fact, the DV at this juncture is an allegation.
All I am saying is that the level of unanimous hatred was a bit of a surprise to me. People are talking like Meyer committed multiple rapes.
Again, to summarize:
- I am disappointed in Meyer and would fire him
- the broad level, and depth of hatred for him, surprised me. I get that some of it is just mob mentality/ political correctness, and some of it is the natural process in our society of brininging down high successful people, especially for fans if that person is your enemy.
However, one of the things that gets me is the media piling onto Meyer and OSU for not bringing up Courtney Smith in the press conference, implying that she was slighted in this whole ordeal. I think the media has it wrong when they expect Meyer to apologize to her. She should be thanking him for putting his career and reputation on the line to keep her husband employed hoping that they could work out the marriage, and then after the marriage ended, keeping the checks coming from his job. Had Urban not been loyal to Earle Bruce and then by extension, Zach Smith, he would have cut him loose years ago and Courtney would not have lived with the benefit of Zach's income all these years.This honestly leaves me speechless and I think you should spend time with victims of abuse. You’re basically saying she should just be happy she had a money train and so what about the abuse. That’s a mind blowing position.
I'm trying to think about being fired "for cause" versus being retained while having issues. I probably draw on my work experience too much as that was a different thing obviously. We would not be fired for a DUI for example, or even have to report it. We WOULD get fired if we used the corporate AMEX at a strip club.this is what blows my mind honestly.
Whoa there buddy. It'll take a lot more than preseason drama for Michigan to get there. This East-sided quad battle (OSU, M, MSU, PSU) should be incredible.Iowa V OSU is how I see it.
This honestly leaves me speechless and I think you should spend time with victims of abuse. You’re basically saying she should just be happy she had a money train and so what about the abuse. That’s a mind blowing position.That's right. We can all admit, in some stories, she sounds like a complete wreck. And then also admit that it's never OK for a lady to be serially abused ... volatile, fully bonkers, tazmanian devil, totally wrecked lady wrecks included.
People tend to have an incredibly difficult time leaving abusive situations. Even more so when children are involved. Questioning her for not leaving is an oversimplification of how difficult that decision is in reality.
I personally believe that she’s half crazy, saying she should be thsnking urban Meyer for saving the job of her abusive husband is just nuts. How about this... maybe if urban fires him because he’s a monster and a scumbag, it causes him to actually seek help, get it and turn his life around and save his wife from years of abuse and save their children from witness years of unhealthy marriage.
this is what blows my mind honestly.To be fair, my read of the document was that this was on Zach's card. The issue, if there was one, is that high school coaches were invited to show and may have been paid for (however, whose tab the $600 covered was never confirmed).
dude racked up a $600 bill on the company AMEX at a titty bar. Any other employer would fire his employee in a NY minute.
and just because it was on Zach's card doesn't mean it wasn't expensed to the athletic departmentTrue. And you could be right. But for whatever reason I trust the investigation here. They found things that required a lot harder (and less likely to bear fruit) digging than this (that Voltolini nugget is c-r-a-z-y ... nobody expected that depth). My guess is the story just isn't there for him having charged it to OSU. If there's a story it's about inducing the HS coaches while recruiting. But we'll never know unless he or Herman admits it. So we'll never know.
one way or another
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/the-zach-smith-investigation/2018/08/95616/gene-smiths-attorney-two-great-men-fell-on-the-sword-for-a-university-they-dearly-loved (https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/the-zach-smith-investigation/2018/08/95616/gene-smiths-attorney-two-great-men-fell-on-the-sword-for-a-university-they-dearly-loved)Maybe...give it a few days
Correct for those who said- this thing isn’t going away.
and just because it was on Zach's card doesn't mean it wasn't expensed to the athletic department
one way or another
We had corporate AMEX cards for travel. We were responsible for the bill. We weren't supposed to use it for private tabs but could in a situation, we just couldn't expense it and paid it ourselves.
I got in a bind once because the rental car agency wouldn't take my personal card and I used the company AMEX, and I was on a job interview, which was a bit of a pickle, but nobody noticed. I just paid the bill myself rather quickly.
They may have been better off saying Meyer is in the clear, he made some misjudgments, but nothing warranting further penalties.I dunno Gainesville.........C-Bus.Urban's own arrogance painted himself in the corner.Seriously IMO the guy is either a narcissist or has no common sense or both.Like Mario said - last week they(the Meyers) counseled the Smiths.This week he says he didn't know Zach outside of work - really the guy on your Fla staff.It's this smug condescending BS that makes people just want to shred him.But he sits at the podium like Christ come to clean the Temple.Again the coup de gras here was the assholes blatant disregard for taking a whole 2 minutes to prepare a statement for the Conference Media Days event.Then the University could have prepped a statement and much of this could have been avoided.Now in the eyes of the Public he is a Liar - and unfortunately the face of Ohio State Football.
Everyone makes misjudgments, every coach, every one of us at times. But if they get public scrutiny, our "superiors" may need to make an example of us, whereas had it been a private thing they would have said "OK, do better next time.".
So now he’s REALLY DQed for BTCOY, right?What are the criteria for the award?
This honestly leaves me speechless and I think you should spend time with victims of abuse. You’re basically saying she should just be happy she had a money train and so what about the abuse. That’s a mind blowing position.If Courtney was being physically abused by Zach, she had the means to end it with one phone call. To try to hang that on Meyer is a stretch. To want Urban to apologize for this abuse is laughable. Urban didn't touch her nor did he condone it.
People tend to have an incredibly difficult time leaving abusive situations. Even more so when children are involved. Questioning her for not leaving is an oversimplification of how difficult that decision is in reality.
I personally believe that she’s half crazy, saying she should be thsnking urban Meyer for saving the job of her abusive husband is just nuts. How about this... maybe if urban fires him because he’s a monster and a scumbag, it causes him to actually seek help, get it and turn his life around and save his wife from years of abuse and save their children from witness years of unhealthy marriage.
I think privately telling Zach, over and over and over, to "do better next time", is what got Urban in this mess.
Everyone makes misjudgments, every coach, every one of us at times. But if they get public scrutiny, our "superiors" may need to make an example of us, whereas had it been a private thing they would have said "OK, do better next time.".
What are the criteria for the award?1. Not be the Head Coach of Ohio State Football.
What are the criteria for the award?Overachieve most in relation to preseason projections. That does make it nearly impossible for the OSU coach to win it, although I think he should have in 2012 of BOB. Probably would have in 2014 if the vote was after the CFP, not just after the regular season.
I find it telling that she didn't go to the media until Zach was fired. One could postulate that it was due to the money flow being shut off that caused her to break her silence.I have tarred and feathered Urban over on 11 Warriors.This is one thing he didn't do wrong.Courtney is hardly a wallflower or a victim and has been caught embellishing.The kids on the other hand have my compassion.Again IMO I think Urban knew if he fired Zach he wouldn't be able to support his ex and kids in a reasonably comfortable fashion.But the two of them had 6 years to sort it out and should have nipped it in the bud then.
If Courtney was being physically abused by Zach, she had the means to end it with one phone call. To try to hang that on Meyer is a stretch. To want Urban to apologize for this abuse is laughable. Urban didn't touch her nor did he condone it.The knots a man can twist himself into.
I find it telling that she didn't go to the media until Zach was fired. One could postulate that it was due to the money flow being shut off that caused her to break her silence. I also find it telling that she essentially set Zach up to get him on the trespassing charge by intentionally failing to meet at a predetermined drop off point to allow him to drop off her son, and then sitting on the porch with a camera to catch him in her driveway.
I don't believe that Zach is innocent in this and is most likely a complete scum bag. But I also don't believe that Courtney has a halo over her head either. Based on the numerous reports on the matter, I think they are both bat crap crazy. I also believe that Meyer saw their marriage as the train wreck that is was and was doing what he could be ensure that money would not be an issue in their failed marriage.
Overachieve most in relation to preseason projections. That does make it nearly impossible for the OSU coach to win it, although I think he should have in 2012 of BOB. Probably would have in 2014 if the vote was after the CFP, not just after the regular season.Yep. I think there's like 3-4 years an OSU coach has had a case. The question after that is it almost a given SOMEONE else will overachieve to a degree. The 2014 one was weird. It was a year without a great candidate. But OSU had also lost to Va. Tech and had a second-best win of either Cincinnati or Minnesota.
Actually it was in the hands of people who know more about DV than Meyer. It was in the hands of the police (and I could assume but not sure the hands of the DA) whose job it is to determine if DV has occur and should be charged. And DV was not charged. All compliance is going to to do is determined if University and NCAA rules have been violated and something needs to be done. And from the reading of the parts of the contract that someone above posted, I would question whether I would need to report if an arrest wasn't made. Which is what the board said, we made it clear to both Smith and Meyer that the need to report even if there is no arrest.
I'm saying the net effect of Meyer's action is to cover up potential DV, because he kept it out of the eyes of people who know a lot more than him about DV. The Compliance office doesn't try to tell him how to attack a fire zone blitz on 3rd and 9. But the exchange for that is that they don't expect him to determine what things are or are not DV--he's required to report it to them.
He failed to do that, and the net effect was that this entire situation was covered up until this year.
Actually it was in the hands of people who know more about DV than Meyer. It was in the hands of the police (and I could assume but not sure the hands of the DA) whose job it is to determine if DV has occur and should be charged. And DV was not charged. Are compliance is going to to do is determined if University and NCAA rules have been violated and something needs to be done. And from the reading of the parts of the contract that someone above posted, I would question whether I would need to report if an arrest wasn't made. Which is what the board said, we made it clear to both Smith and Meyer that the need to report even if there is no arrest.Riffraft:
Riffraft:(1) Did you not read my post? I said by my reading of the contract, I am not sure I would have reported it to compliance, Which is what the report said about Smith and Meyer. They believed that the didn't have to report it because there was no arrest, but they monitored it to see where it went. The board made it clear that even if no arrest it has to be reported.
(1) Urban and Gene were each and separately obligated by contract to go to compliance.
(2) the idea that the police investigating is enough to peace out and do no more is outdated and incorrect. And Mary Jo White emphasized that. That too often women are abused but charges can't come because jail time is such a tough punishment, the justice system must use the strictest standards for guilt. It would be inappropriate for employers to settle for that. Which is why the contracts are written as they are
Not being found guilty criminally is not the same as being innocent. So places like OSU are designed to try better
Also, Rmazy tweeted about Urban's brain surgery in 2014. I had completely forgotten about that, but the memory meds may make more sense in that context.Brain Surgery?i don't recall hearing about that
Yes, we will wait and see, and I could well be wrong here and we'll see this doesn't have legs and basically goes away amidst the real news of the season starting.I agree. If this was two weeks from now, it is discussed less than today. Once the season starts, there will be comments or remarks, but not the constant coverage.
I agree. If this was two weeks from now, it is discussed less than today. Once the season starts, there will be comments or remarks, but not the constant coverage.I'd like to think that, but I doubt it. ESPN has fired most of their talent that knows anything about the game, and they put very little effort and resources into doing so outside of actual game presentation.
btw.. as a husker fan, I felt the Baylor coverage > OSU coverage. It probably feels, as a fan of OSU, like a constant bombardment (and we know how that feels), but Baylor was covered outside of sports and for a lot longer. 3 months from now, perhaps I'll be incorrect, but up to this point, I think the story has mostly run it's course.
Brain Surgery?i don't recall hearing about thathttps://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2014/03/34023/meyer-health-fine-buckeyes-adequate-day-1
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2014/03/34023/meyer-health-fine-buckeyes-adequate-day-1I had one of those. Took about a half hour and I was home in about 2 hours.
If Courtney was being physically abused by Zach, she had the means to end it with one phone call. To try to hang that on Meyer is a stretch. To want Urban to apologize for this abuse is laughable. Urban didn't touch her nor did he condone it.I think our views are similar for the most part, except for a few small nuances. I don't think most reasonable people are blaming Urban for the abuse or specifically saying he's condoning it. He did have the opportunity to say something positive to Courtney & the children & he whiffed. He could have easily said something like, "this has been a learning opportunity for all of us to take accusations of domestic violence more serious to ensure we are protecting families." How do your PR people not prep you for something like that? I thing pride and ego got in the way.
I find it telling that she didn't go to the media until Zach was fired. One could postulate that it was due to the money flow being shut off that caused her to break her silence. I also find it telling that she essentially set Zach up to get him on the trespassing charge by intentionally failing to meet at a predetermined drop off point to allow him to drop off her son, and then sitting on the porch with a camera to catch him in her driveway.
I don't believe that Zach is innocent in this and is most likely a complete scum bag. But I also don't believe that Courtney has a halo over her head either. Based on the numerous reports on the matter, I think they are both bat crap crazy. I also believe that Meyer saw their marriage as the train wreck that is was and was doing what he could be ensure that money would not be an issue in their failed marriage.
Had he fired ZS in 2015, or never hired him, or reported him to compliance, it would not have helped the wife's situation at all.I'm not sure how anyone can say that with conviction. Would not have helped at all? How do you know? Sometimes it takes someone's life hitting bottom, before they realize they need to change or get help. It's seen with addicts all the time.
Meyer's actions helped her in effect. Perhaps someone can explain why Meyer's actions harmed her.
(1) Did you not read my post? I said by my reading of the contract, I am not sure I would have reported it to compliance, Which is what the report said about Smith and Meyer. They believed that the didn't have to report it because there was no arrest, but they monitored it to see where it went. The board made it clear that even if no arrest it has to be reported.I think that was a cop-out by the board. You have a coach and an AD, both making boatloads of money, and you don't train them on what their actual requirements are? Heck, at my job, mid-level managers have to take classes every two years on this. We were taught, in no uncertain terms, "if you see anything, report it--even if you don't think it's serious, even if you don't want to get anyone in trouble... report it."
(2) So you, like bwarbiany, whose comment I was responding to, believe that the compliance department that is designed to determine if University and NCAA policy, is better able to determine whether DV happened than the police and/or the DA. The police and the DA do not use the strictest standard of guilt to bring charges, that is for the final arbiter, the courts. The police and the DA only determine if there is enough evidence to bring charges.I think there's a difference between the police's response to allegations and the university's response. The university might evaluate the evidence, note that there might not be enough evidence to clear the legal bar, but believe that university policies have not been followed and recommend action. Or they could have simply evaluated the situation, and in the absence of formal charges realized that Zach's behavior was a risk to the university and recommended action.
Had he fired ZS in 2015, or never hired him, or reported him to compliance, it would not have helped the wife's situation at all.there's absolutely no way to know how anything would have helped or hurt Courtney's situation
Meyer's actions helped her in effect. Perhaps someone can explain why Meyer's actions harmed her.
To have total filth like Zach Smith around those young men is not only irresponsible it's just wrong. I could MAYBE see an argument if the guy was this amazing WR's coach but he wasn't. He was honestly a piss poor WR's coach.I don't recall players singling him out.I wasn't found of the tweeting crap.IMO it boils down to two things - he either had Urbans Party Pictures or he recruited rather well.But ya Urban brought this on himself - and unfortunately the University
forget Courtney Smith for a second.Not that it should matter, but I thought he was an amazing recruiter, and they just kind of "hid" him as a WR coach.
Zach Smith is a flat out scumbag. Just pure filth. How in the hell Urban could not only hire him but keep him for almost a decade is crazy. The guy was a bad WR's coach. He could've been fired just for performance. Add to that all of his off-field BS- Urban gave him second chance after second chance. Urban let him get away with waaaaaaaay too much. Just makes zero sense. College football coaches spend one on one time with 18-21 year olds every day, not only coaching them up in football but also shaping them as men. To have total filth like Zach Smith around those young men is not only irresponsible it's just wrong. I could MAYBE see an argument if the guy was this amazing WR's coach but he wasn't. He was honestly a piss poor WR's coach.
I never said that Compliance is better equipped than the criminal justice system. I did imply they are *differently* equipped though and am happy to explain why having that is crucial.
(2) So you, like bwarbiary, whose comment I was responding to, believe that the compliance department that is designed to determine if University and NCAA policy, is better able to determine whether DV happened than the police and/or the DA. The police and the DA do not use the strictest standard of guilt to bring charges, that is for the final arbiter, the courts. The police and the DA only determine if there is enough evidence to bring charges.
Urb tweets a pretty classy apology to Courtney Smith"I was taught at a very young age that if I ever hit a woman, I would be kicked out of the house and never welcomed back. I have the same rule in my house and in the Football Program at Ohio State. “
https://twitter.com/OSUCoachMeyer
"I was taught at a very young age that if I ever hit a woman, I would be kicked out of the house and never welcomed back. I have the same rule in my house and in the Football Program at Ohio State. “Easily. That is what he believed. Haven’t you figured this part out yet SM?
Are you kidding me? How can he possibly make that statement? He employed and covered for a guy that broke that exact rule for 9 year.
Meyer is possibly a pathological liar and convinced himself into believing things that fit his current agenda.Well, you now sounds like you’ve lost your mind.
Again, how can he believe it? As a reminder, he and his wife were counseling the couple as they told everyone a few weeks ago after the abuse in 2009.
I think Meyer could convince himself he once walked on water. He and Kim jung Un should hang out and compare accomplishments as long as Meyer doesn’t have any more heart problems or possibly forgets his accomplishments from temporary amnesia.
Well, you now sounds like you’ve lost your mind.Also I will add, and this is an important distinction, that the investigative committee, people who are prosecutors for living in several cases, could not find an instance, not one, where they think she lied. 10,000 documents 60,000 texts 40 witnesses and they could not catch him in one lie? But he’s a pathological liar? You’re the one who sounds a little crazy super Mario
I am not saying he did or did not get her. But to stop and think for a minute with an on biased mind. One person says he hit her. Virtually every other entity that can wait in on it says he did not. And that includes the police and apparently may have been a well-known thing around campus if you read closely Jean Smith’s attorney’s statement about multiple false reporting. I am not saying he did or did not get her. But to stop and think for a minute with an on biased mind. One person says he hit her. Virtually every other entity that can wait in on it says he did not. And that includes the police and apparently may have been a well known thing around campus if you read closely Jean Smith’s attorney’s statement about multiple false reporting
If your own coaches tell you they see it different and the police tell you they don’t see it that way and now others we don’t need to know now probably weigh in and said he didn’t have no if you’re on coaches tell you they see it different and the police tell you they don’t see it that way and now others we don’t need to know now probably wait in and said it didn’t happen That way – it’s not unreasonable to believe it.
I think it is fairly obvious that there are a lot of people close to the situation that don’t believe it besides just him and I’m sure there are many that do. Are they all crazy idiots or are you saying just urban Meyer?
Meyer is possibly a pathological liar and convinced himself into believing things that fit his current agenda.Are you aware of where and when the 2009 incident happened?
Again, how can he believe it? As a reminder, he and his wife were counseling the couple as they told everyone a few weeks ago after the abuse in 2009.
I think Meyer could convince himself he once walked on water. He and Kim jung Un should hang out and compare accomplishments as long as Meyer doesn’t have any more heart problems or possibly forgets his accomplishments from temporary amnesia.
10,000 documents 60,000 texts 40 witnesses and they could not catch him in one lie?You’re not serious. How many times has he been caught publicly lying in the last month? Oh wait, you believe it was an accidental mistruth or this weird memory loss thing.
It’s nice to see most of the population outside of Ohio are finally seeing the man Myself and a bunch of BG Falcons learned about many years ago.Back at you - you're a highly intelligent guy do you think everyone in the state is a Meyer Nutthugger?My friends that said Tressell has to go are saying the same thing about Meyer.Many Michigan fans defended Gibbons & Lewan but not the whole lot of them
You’re not serious. How many times has he been caught publicly lying in the last month? Oh wait, you believe it was an accidental mistruth or this weird memory loss thing.Yes. The mob. Climbing over each other to prove their leve of outrage is higher than the ass clown in the next station or website he competes with. Yeah, I am familiar with what society “thinks”
C’mon. You’re a highly intelligent guy. You can’t be this blinded.
Do you also believe what he released today is the real urban Meyer? The real urban Meyer is the guy at the podium saying “who makes up a story like that?” The real one acts like a hostage reading a statement. The real one refuses to say to address the smith family or the abuse and apologizes to Buckeye nation. The person posting on twitter is his PR manager. The beginning and end of Meyer’s career will be very similar. Absolutely one of the best recruiters and most creative coaches in the game, but willing to use people and tell them what they want to hear to win them over and get his way. It’s nice to see most of the population outside of Ohio are finally seeing the man Myself and a bunch of BG Falcons learned about many years ago.
Back at you - you're a highly intelligent guy do you think everyone in the state is a Meyer Nutthugger?Definitely not. Most of my close friends and family are diehard Buckeye fans. The ones that have closely followed the story are embarrassed by what’s going on. I feel bad for them and the Buckeye fans here as almost all are genuinely good guys.
Definitely not. Most of my close friends and family are diehard Buckeye fans. The ones that have closely followed the story are embarrassed by what’s going on. I feel bad for them and the Buckeye fans here as almost all are genuinely good guys.Is my take reasonable? That he deserves to be fired for keeping a douce on his staff due some warped sense of loyalty and for deleting texts. But also- any narrative that he covered up or lied about DV- are at best, not even slightly proven and likely downright false. And the outrage is mostly based on that false narrative.
Some of them, the more causal fans, are screaming that Meyer didn’t abuse her so it’s BS he’s suspended. Tough to talk rationally to that group.
The rest seem to be the ultimate optimists, the ones that always see the best in people and hope for the best. I get it, but I think that group is ignoring giant red flags.
You’ve had very reasonable takes. The good news is football starts soon. This nonsense will die down and you can get back to focusing on football.
Yes. The mob. Climbing over each other to prove their leve of outrage is higher than the ass clown in the next station or website he competes with. Yeah, I am familiar with what society “thinks”You’ve based most of your belief this entire time that Urban didn’t lie at media day and had a side conversation with other reporters and his answer that most of the world heard was just misunderstood.
Kind of like what Jason Whitlock said. Trying to kill masculinity, and football is the most highly visible thing- and this and Urban are just the latest vehicle.
And that’s why they are willing to take one alleged victim’s story as gospel, but ignore the other evidence-including EVERY other person or department close to the situation
No- I am not familiar with all these lies you speak of, and apparent neither was the commitee- who felt he lied about it covered up NOTHING. Nothing. He used bad judgement- no doubt. But the same people who say he put winning first as the reason admit ZS was a shitty coach in their next sentence. Was it loyalty or winning?
No-Clearly Meyer doesn’t really feel he owes her an apology- and clearly he has reasons. Doesn’t make him right He knows more than he can say I am sure.
I was originally saying he should be fired for not telling compliance and deleting more than 1 yr old texts.
Now that I know that both he and Smith openly discussed it, The title IX officer knew because that’s who the police called and HR was brought in- and knowing Compliance is for NCAA matters, I can forgive that. But not for Smith.
The fact that Smith is not the target of this vitriol is all the proof you need of the mob outrage.
Is my take reasonable? That he deserves to be fired for keeping a douce on his staff due some warped sense of loyalty and for deleting texts. But also- any narrative that he covered up or lied about DV- are at best, not even slightly proven and likely downright false. And the outrage is mostly based on that false narrative.No, I don’t think that’s a reasonable take at all. Not even slightly proven? Buckeye blinders are on my friend. You’re choosing to miss the truth completely. Or maybe you had a brain cyst and forgot it.
You’ve based most of your belief this entire time that Urban didn’t lie at media day and had a side conversation with other reporters and his answer that most of the world heard was just misunderstood.Seen that long ago. Where is the lie? Did you not read the report and his texts The night before asking Jean Smith and and others for advice On what to say because he could not remember that incident?
Maybe it’s time you watch this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IEccAVs2tF0&feature=youtu.be (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IEccAVs2tF0&feature=youtu.be)
Still believe he hasn’t lied?
No, I don’t think that’s a reasonable take at all. Not even slightly proven? Buckeye blinders are on my friend. You’re choosing to miss the truth completely. Or maybe you had a brain cyst and forgot it.Talk about binders my God super. I guess we should all be leave you over the committee that went over all that information and all those texts? Because that was their conclusion
As I said before the best $$ an Ohio State donor could burn right now would be to send Zach smith an all expenses paid vacation to some remote cabana in the Maldives with no cell or internet service. Give him $1,000 for every day he stays off the grid.ya can't fix stupid
One person says he hit her.Two people. Courtney and her mom - with both being documented in texts.
10,000 documents 60,000 texts 40 witnesses and they could not catch him in one lie? But he’s a pathological liar?How many of those were the texts that he conspired with his Director of Football Operations to delete?
Seen that long ago. Where is the lie? Did you not read the report and his texts The night before asking Jean Smith and and others for advice On what to say because he could not remember that incident?He knows “nothing about 2015.” Let that sink in. I called the people back at the office and they knew nothing about it.
my bet is Urban will retire after this year.Agreed, only I wouldn’t be surprised if it came sooner.
people always talk about Harbaugh being a guy who is job hopper and flames out. I think Urban is more in that vein. Bowling Green two years, Utah two years. Goes to Florida for 6 years, quits, unquits for a year, then quits again.
His time at Ohio State might just be coming to an end. Talk about stress. The last month must've been the most stressful of his professional life. He did NOT look like a happy camper at that presser. He looked pissssssssed.
How many of those were the texts that he conspired with his Director of Football Operations to delete?Not sure your context at this juncture? If a debate is like a chess game, your working on the Knight you took at the beginning.
When one's first compulsion at the beginning of an investigation is to destroy evidence ... it's forever fair to speculate about their lying.
my bet is Urban will retire after this year.He did NOT look like a happy camper at that presser. He looked pissssssssed.
Yes, I’ve read that you’ve posted multiple times you’d fire him for deleting texts, but you’re acting like he did nothing else wrong. You don’t delete texts unless there’s something to find. He’s not an honest guy. Never has been.Super if you're going that route McMurphy deleted/edited his facebook acct I don't know how many times.Meyer is a bad look with his flip flopping and ignoring Zach's juvenile behavior.He evidently wasn't liked by the staff as he was really a very bad coach.
Super if you're going that route McMurphy deleted/edited his facebook acct I don't know how many times.Meyer is a bad look with his flip flopping and ignoring Zach's juvenile behavior.He evidently wasn't liked by the staff as he was really a very bad coach.Do you think it’s the same? I’m asking honestly, not being argumentative. I see it as a reporter correcting errors after obtaining information that disputes a report vs someone trying to hide evidence. For me it’s not the same.
Not sure your context at this juncture? If a debate is like a chess game, your working on the Knight you took at the beginning.I don't know chess and didn't know I was still part of a debate. I just leapt at what appeared to be Super saying Urban has lied and you calling that mistaken. If I misunderstood and you have been acknowledging Urban's dishonesty, then I jumped for no reason and should apologize.
The texts are reason enough to terminate, but I add the general concept of inaction versus just warning, on terminating ZS.
The texts bother me the most. What or why are you hiding? Not reporting to compliance, bothers me only from the Gene Smith angle, now that the report shows that Title IV person knew, and HR WAS informed. If there was not clarity around compliance needing in, which is understandable for a criminal case, I hold Gene sole responsible for that. For god sakes your the AD!
To me, the situation is intuitively easy to see here. He probably deleted them because he knew his wife had sent him some texts some time ago, probably knew they were going to not help. But, the thing that nobody, besides the committee- who danced around it mostly- is not talking about is that Meyer, his wife, Gene Smith, and many others- simply had enough of their own evidence to question CS credibility.
They simply didn’t want to fire ZS based on the evidence they had ( police reports, etc)
Didn’t the incident in09 happen at Meyers house, after a dinner party? And were there witnesses? I think this only contributed.
If you want to blast any man for not taking a DV claim as gospel, just because it is made, then yes, blast away. My gut tells me many and possibly most of the people criticizing Urban would have struggled with that part of this....the claims of DV. It’s just political suicide to admit it. Again, you don’t hear the talking heads screaming for Gene’s scalp.. why is that?...
Super if you're going that route McMurphy deleted/edited his facebook acct I don't know how many times.Meyer is a bad look with his flip flopping and ignoring Zach's juvenile behavior.He evidently wasn't liked by the staff as he was really a very bad coach.About that, we learned a key thing:
According to an IT guy if court ordered that's not hard to get back that info.It's true. Whether on the cloud (iMessage) or by device forensics, it can be retrieved. But only with a court order, and we should doubt that will ever happen (and even if it does, that Urban will still have that device). An FOIA request wouldn't bring this up either. Not without a court order. Which is really unlikely.
About that, we learned a key thing:It also looks like mcMurphy released the original copy showing it was checked as an arrest. There was some confusion initially because there didn’t appear to be a copy of it saying there was an arrest but he has posted that and put it to rest
- After McMurphy learned about the felonious arrest in 2015 but hours/days before he published, the Powell police department, 3 years after the fact, edited the file, claiming terminology had changed, and now filed the event with the arrest box being *unchecked* (very weird and poorly explained on Powell's part)
- So that's not on McMurphy. And even when we thought it was, he left an edit trail (Facebook logs/publishes edit histories automatically).
- So not only was McMurphy ultimately proven correct, even before that, it wasn't as shady as his detractors promised
I forget/don't know all the particulars(really I don't)Fox Sports wasn't letting McMurphy off the hook.Saw separate interviews with Brady Quinn and another with Doug Gottlieb they were both questioning the methods/accuracy/motives on some of his reporting
- So not only was McMurphy ultimately proven correct, even before that, it wasn't as shady as his detractors promised
I don't know about the interview where Gottlieb was harsh towards McMurphy, but I do know of the one where Gottlieb nonstop praised McMurphy (https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/2018-08-01-brett-mcmurphy-talks-timeline-of-urban-meyer-zach-smith-report/):I am laughing. I can’t rven respond. This guy has been proven to be on a personal vendetta.
In any event, the list of things against McMurphy across these last few weeks has been:
- He reported a felony arrest that the Powell PD says never happened (which we now know is only because they recently went back and edited the record)
- and "ooooh, but like what are his motives, man"
The OSU investigation, presser, and now this news about the Powell PD have fully vindicated McMurphy. He was the most aggressive, consistent and trustworthy journalist involved and in light of the Powell mini-scandal, everything he published remains accurate.
I am laughing. I can’t rven respond. This guy has been proven to be on a personal vendetta.How exactly has that been proven? It’s odd you think that’s proven but Meyer hasn’t been a proven liar.
Any one who would publish one side of a story and interview one person- the alleged victim- is not consistent or a journalist. Sorry.
And his personal opinion tweets validate that.
Reporter became part of the story.That's it?
After his initial report, he had a counter punch released each time his targets ( Meyer, OSU) or anything or anyone supporting them, released a statement.When at first we were fooled to think Snook got some landmark scoop with Courtney's mom, you can sure as hell bet that it's relevant for McMurphy to go and have a nice interview with Courtney's mom where she contradicts that and shows text message documentation to support it:
Yesterday he tweets that Meyers apology validates CS’ claims.Why does that matter?
The OSU investigation, presser, and now this news about the Powell PD have fully vindicated McMurphy. He was the most aggressive, consistent and trustworthy journalist involved and in light of the Powell mini-scandal, everything he published remains accurate.Bullshit proven accurate by who?You? he never,ever attempted to publish an opposing rebuttall nada,zero,zilch.Jesus now your taking liberties as much as McMurphy,Zach,Urban or Courtney.I'm not defending Zach or anything but there is a reason this yapping jackel wasn't employed until the last month..Earle Bruce never met with Courtney - his daughter,Zachs mom did in 2009.
proven accurate by who?The McMurphy narrative has been corroborated by the OSU investigators and what we've learned about the Powell PD going back to edit Zach's 2015 arrest report in July of 2018.
While I do think McMurphy enjoys trolling OSU fans, I dn't see anything particularly shady on his part. He did get some pretty crucial information wrong, and I don't find his excuse particularly great - (the box was checked!) He obviously didn't do any sort of follow up to make sure he was right. It is what it is.I agree with all of this. He definitely has enjoyed the ride. Not sure why that should affect our interpretation of the information he presented. I'm only judging that information and am doing so as "accurate."
I mean to be friendly but don't understand your point. Do you think these quotes are inconsistent with what I've said?Courtney told McMurphy that "she has been estranged from her mother for about two months."“I still love my mom, but I’m really hurt she has chosen not to support me during this difficult time,” Courtney told McMurphy.Sorry you objectivity is swirling the drain.No it wasn't that quote was taken after McMurphy talked to Miss Carano
Again hire an attorney and Powell Police will open the records.Courtney would love to prove this as she would win if the landslide of evidence is the slam dunk that your angling to indicate.Did you read my link to Ramzy and the 11 Warriors,he opined that neither Zack or Courtney were particularly liked.McMurphy popped off that all the wives knew.Michelle Herman said she didn't or see any signs of abuse.Look I'm glad Zach's gone and only saddened by knowing Urban isn't following him.But this yodeling roach McMurphy is a walking/talking crime against JournalismAgain I mean to be friendly, but I don't know what conversation you think we are having. What would Courtney be suing the Powell Police for, and what evidence does she want from them that we don't already have? McMurphy copied a file with the arrest box checked. And then the Powell police changed that. And then McMurphy shared his copy to establish that the Powell PD did in fact change it recently so we weren't stuck taking him at his word.
Did McMurphy edit any part of his report besides the arrest?I don't know, did he? I thought it was only this.
Here's the document that McMurphy copied before the Powell police sketchily edited it. Your attention should be drawn to box "F: Arrest - Adult," which is checked:Right, I've seen it. Solely relying on whether that box is checked is IMO pretty shoddy reporting, given how easy it could have been to fact check. I've seen thousands of police reports and would not rely solely on those boxes over the other information in the report.
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/39913669_2079164925440894_7061117472337821696_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=9c8b7077f0d59a30a6494a0d6c9dff2a&oe=5BF0E817)
I don't know, did he? I thought it was only this.I thought that was the change as well, which is why I’m a little confused. Some of the comments are painting him like a snake that provided a bunch of false information. In hindsight, it looks like his reporting was spot on since he has shown the original report, which is why I’m thinking maybe I missed something else he changed.
Again I mean to be friendly, but I don't know what conversation you think we are having.That's fine we've evidently crossed wires and are talking past each other.I'd love for it to go to court as I said I dunno 20 pages back.I just don't think either of the Smith's would be comfortable with the archives.And if Courtney could clean him out for everything - more power to her if she hasn't brought any of this out as her mom had said
I thought that was the change as well, which is why I’m a little confused. Some of the comments are painting him like a snake that provided a bunch of false information. In hindsight, it looks like his reporting was spot on since he has shown the original report, which is why I’m thinking maybe I missed something else he changed.I think Sam hit it on the head - OSU fans think that McMurphy trolled them, enjoyed trolling them, and they tolerate that least of all. Which is related to what HB wrote when he said that Brett inserted himself into the story. Maybe it's true. But I think it's also like twelfth in things that matter about his reports.
Right, I've seen it. Solely relying on whether that box is checked is IMO pretty shoddy reporting, given how easy it could have been to fact check. I've seen thousands of police reports and would not rely solely on those boxes over the other information in the report.Is it common for police reports to change 3 years after incidents? I’m asking out of ignorance. If I obtained a police report, I would never think it was inaccurate, but that’s so out of the realm of my daily life that I’m not sure what’s common and uncommon.
Is it common for police reports to change 3 years after incidents? I’m asking out of ignorance. If I obtained a police report, I would never think it was inaccurate, but that’s so out of the realm of my daily life that I’m not sure what’s common and uncommon.That has been my expectation too. If a police officer, defense lawyer or prosecutor says otherwise though (basically that these files are often not trustworthy), then I'll agree that McMurphy could have done more to vet it. But even then, if normal folks outside the justice system don't know it, is it reasonable to expect journalists to?
None of this would have happened without McMurphy. Zach would still have his job. We'd never have learned about Meyer's mishandling.I don't think this statement is correct.
Is it common for police reports to change 3 years after incidents? I’m asking out of ignorance. If I obtained a police report, I would never think it was inaccurate, but that’s so out of the realm of my daily life that I’m not sure what’s common and uncommon.Probably not, though that's not the full report nor the part that people would normally pay great attention to. There is typically multiple pages, including a summary of events. My understanding is that the Powell police are refusing to release that (though trying to follow that part of it has been difficult). Those boxes are part of a computer program, the cop has to go through a lot of them, and its not unheard of for mistakes to be made on them.
None of this would have happened without McMurphy. Zach would still have his job. We'd never have learned about Meyer's mishandling.Just wish Urban had vacated also.I believe he might have had he not bolted Gainesville already.The polluted rube played no small part in the mischief - bad look for the Boys in Scarlett & Gray
Probably not, though that's not the full report nor the part that people would normally pay great attention to. There is typically multiple pages, including a summary of events. My understanding is that the Powell police are refusing to release that (though trying to follow that part of it has been difficult). Those boxes are part of a computer program, the cop has to go through a lot of them, and its not unheard of for mistakes to be made on them.I don’t think I’m understanding correctly. So he should have followed up harder, but people who subsequently followed up were refused the summary of events? Again, ignorance on my part and I’m asking more to learn.
To be clear, I'm not accusing McMurphy of anything underhanded. I understand why he reported what he did. However, it would be pretty unusual for someone to be arrested on felony charges and no follow up in a court database to exist, which should have prompted McMurphy to check it a little harder.
I think Urban had blinders on concerning Zach, I think he and Gene Smith blurred the line on what they should have done and what was done. I'm ok with suspension.According to 11 Warriors GENE asked Urban to fire Z.Smith 3 yrs back evidently felt he could make things work.That and the fact Meyer couldn't be bothered to prepare a statement for Media days is grounds for dismissal IMO.The character of the Program & University has been terribly tarnished.It's not a coincidence he's done it before - he's a case study in narcissism.
I don't think this statement is correct.You are correct, that statement is so far from accurate. And that’s my point here.
McMurphy claims it's because of him. His report and firing came within hours of each other, and both just days after they both received notification of Civil protection Order. I still think it was the release of the civil order (because of the criminal trespassing conviction) 11 Warriors and Columbus Dispatch were also reporting on the criminal trespass. This wasn't going to get covered up, even if Urban/OSU wanted to.
I am now in the camp the McMurphy is looking for scalps. After OSU released their finding, he is still calling for Urbans head to the point of misquoting the findings the university released.
https://foxsportsradio.iheart.com/content/brett-mcmurphy-talks-ohio-state-press-conference-result-urban-meyer/
The quote starts off with "In the course of our review..." we found all this shitty stuff.
McMurphy in the interview alters the quote to be "Urban knew about..." all this shitty stuff.
I think Urban had blinders on concerning Zach, I think he and Gene Smith blurred the line on what they should have done and what was done. I'm ok with suspension. (Pet peeve is that Urban's 3 weeks suspension ends up being 7 weeks, while Gene's is an actual 3, but that could just be petteyness on my part.)
Courtney Smith doesn't seem stable. I'm glad she is out of the abusive relationship.
Zach Smith is a POS. I think he lied, repeatedly to Urban, (and Gene.) An Urban didn't see through the lies, or had blinders on.
I'm ready to be done with this and for Football to start. 7 days till OSU beats OSU!
I don’t think I’m understanding correctly. So he should have followed up harder, but people who subsequently followed up were refused the summary of events? Again, ignorance on my part and I’m asking more to learn.I think he could have followed up with the police to ensure that was accurate. I may be wrong about what is being withheld. I looked back at his original story and he quotes from the report, though not from the page provided. So I'm guessing the full report is out there, but I haven't been able to find it.
Would a Sports reporter normally know what to ask for?
HB - there’s parts of your take that I’m really trying to understand but I can’t make click in my head.Then we agree, it isn’t about the alleged DV.
The false narrative that Meyer covered up and lied for ZS, but then proceed to call ZS a POS. I simply don’t understand how you can claim he’s a POS but think Meyer didn’t cover for him. Take DV out for a second. I think that’s you’re sticking point. Are you assuming everyone thinks Meyer knew about the DV and was protecting it? If so, I think you’re misunderstanding some of the general outrage here.
Speaking for myself, I think Meyer covered ZS’s scummy activities, besides DV.
Lastly, how is it clear that the OSU Camp doesn’t believe the abuse claims? What factual evidence helped you get there. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just looking how you connected the dots to that vs they were turning a blind eye ha they didn’t believe it happened.
Then we agree, it isn’t about the alleged DV.But back to my point, we’re absent factual evidence. Almost everyone has universally agree that ZS is a POS and Courtney is a little crazy, but we’re going to put the two mothers that raised them on a pedestal and believe they are reliable witnesses? I’m yet to be convinced both families aren’t nuts.
You can say Meyer covered for ZS. But is it really “covering” or is just being too blindly loyal to see the danger. Was there really any risk to Meyer from the loss of ZS? No.
And if you just compile what Smiths attorney said, specifically about false reports, what Meyer said about he said she said in that very clip you posted, and entertain the possibility that ther is some truth in what the two moms are saying, it is really obvious that the police, and the OSU camp was skeptical at best.
It's true. Whether on the cloud (iMessage) or by device forensics, it can be retrieved. But only with a court order, and we should doubt that will ever happen (and even if it does, that Urban will still have that device). An FOIA request wouldn't bring this up either. Not without a court order. Which is really unlikely.Couldn't the OSU investigation have gotten a hold of them? I don't know if Meyer's phone is paid for by the school, but I would have thought they'd have tried to get the past texts through court if necessary.
Having the technology to get them (we do) and still not seeing them (we won't) in no way absolves the conspiracy with Voltolini or deletion or tips the balances to say there's probably nothing there.
bingo
Unless of course they knew they'd find something to justify firing Meyer and didn't want to find info they couldn't explain away.
But back to my point, we’re absent factual evidence. Almost everyone has universally agree that ZS is a POS and Courtney is a little crazy, but we’re going to put the two mothers that raised them on a pedestal and believe they are reliable witnesses? I’m yet to be convinced both families aren’t nuts.But what specifically was Urbans-vested interest?
Meyer had a vested interest in taking the approach he didn’t believe it actually happened and so did the program and police department at that point. I don’t think there is any evidence showing the abuse didn’t happen and judging by the character is ZS, it’s very possibly it did. It’s also possible it didn’t and he’s just a dirtbag and she’s batsh*t crazy, but I think it’s unreasonable to see we have clear evidence.
Couldn't the OSU investigation have gotten a hold of them? I don't know if Meyer's phone is paid for by the school, but I would have thought they'd have tried to get the past texts through court if necessary.I think they eliminated that option when they gave the investigation a 2-week timeline. Approval/Forensics could easily take longer, right?
Unless of course they knew they'd find something to justify firing Meyer and didn't want to find info they couldn't explain away.
I don't think this statement is correct.I guess I have to agree. The timing of OSU's Monday announcements for "monitoring" and then firing Zach Smith (within an hour) after each McMurphy's two Monday reports could be correlative and not causative. I'm skeptical that it's absolutely the case but I can't deny the possibility.
(Pet peeve is that Urban's 3 weeks suspension ends up being 7 weeks, while Gene's is an actual 3, but that could just be petteyness on my part.)Many of us agree that Gene's errors were at least as serious as Meyer's perhaps more. So I'm 100% with you. Though I would clarify that Urban's suspension isn't actually 7 weeks. By technical definition it ends (partly) on September 2nd. And I'd say that if we split up a coach's duties, being with the team for the Sun-Fri of weeks 2/3 is far more valuable than being with the team on Saturdays 2/3.
I don’t think I’m understanding correctly. So he should have followed up harder, but people who subsequently followed up were refused the summary of events? Again, ignorance on my part and I’m asking more to learn.I know that if I had an arrest report on someone, the next thing I would do is look for an adjudication of the arrest. A bail hearing, a preliminary hearing, something and if I found nothing I would dig deeper to find out why not.
Would a Sports reporter normally know what to ask for?
I know that if I had an arrest report on someone, the next thing I would do is look for an adjudication of the arrest. A bail hearing, a preliminary hearing, something and if I found nothing I would dig deeper to find out why not.By the same logic, no member of the public should look at Zach Smith and support him on the basis that, despite the arrests, "he was never charged."
Well, this would limit the idea that she’s out for just money right now.Funny, what we take from what we read. That’s what you took from that?
http://www.dispatch.com/news/20180829/report-details-allegations-of-longtime-abuse-by-zach-smith?template=ampart&__twitter_impression=true (http://www.dispatch.com/news/20180829/report-details-allegations-of-longtime-abuse-by-zach-smith?template=ampart&__twitter_impression=true)
Is it common for police reports to change 3 years after incidents? I’m asking out of ignorance. If I obtained a police report, I would never think it was inaccurate, but that’s so out of the realm of my daily life that I’m not sure what’s common and uncommon.on the police report, i've now seen 3 different copies.
She said his morning the officer misunderstood. She never said OSU sent someone to the house, she said someone was sent to the house when she described the 2009 incident to the attorney. That’s a reasonable explanation.Yes I agree.
My point was that she did not bring up the abuse claims right now out of the blue. There’s been growing momentum that she was never abused. From outside the situation, it looks like an abuse victim crying out for help multiple times over the years. It doesn’t mean she’s not crazy, but increasing likelihood that there was unhealthy physical contact many times in their relationship.
Yes I agree.It wasn't an anonymous tip, it was the police incident report, which the chief of police didn't dispute. How is that rushing to judgment?
My point is- yesterday The Dispatch received an anonymous tip that she had told the police OSU had sent an attorney after the 2015 incident.
That got published and our rush to judgement society took it as gospel.
Thankfully she did the right thing and clarified it this morning. That just makes her more credible in my eyes.
Yes I agree.So this gets into something interesting: media outlets tend to believe what the police say. There’s a far more political discussion to be had about it, but for our small corner of the world, it means public police documents are made very public. That’s long been the media way of operating, as public documents are considered safely reportable.
My point is- yesterday The Dispatch received an anonymous tip that she had told the police OSU had sent an attorney after the 2015 incident.
That got published and our rush to judgement society took it as gospel.
Thankfully she did the right thing and clarified it this morning. That just makes her more credible in my eyes.
It wasn't an anonymous tip, it was the police incident report, which the chief of police didn't dispute. How is that rushing to judgment?Lol. I am not attacking anything or anyone.
The police report had the story wrong, which she clarified. It's not that the media reported it wrong. You're attacking the wrong people
Lol. I am not attacking anything or anyone.Pot meet kettle.
So now what the police have to say or not say has bearing of this all of the sudden? It didn’t before when they refused to press charges based on the evidence in front of them. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t continue to believe everything that points to your narrative And disavow out everything that doesn’t. And that’s what this whole thing has been for you and really the whole national media
I thought the bigger conversation this week wasn't this story but all the outlets and "open records request" lawyers acknowledging that deleting those text messages is definitely illegal and begs for police investigation but that won't realistically happen to Meyer in Ohio.So you know he did delete texts? How did you get that info since nobody else can confirm that?
Pot meet kettle.You didn’t. You said that in this aspect it does have bearing. But to this point you have ignored the fact that the police never had enough reason to make an arrest for DV.
Show me where I said what the police say has no bearing?
I thought the bigger conversation this week wasn't this story but all the outlets and "open records request" lawyers acknowledging that deleting those text messages is definitely illegal and begs for police investigation but that won't realistically happen to Meyer in Ohio.Haven't seen that. It could arguably violate Ohio's open records law but not sure it could arise to a criminal matter.
You didn’t. You said that in this aspect it does have bearing. But to this point you have ignored the fact that the police never had enough reason to make an arrest for DV.Again, show me where I said that? For someone that claims everyone else is selectively paying attention to things that fit the narrative, you certainly like to put words in someone's mouth to meet your narrative.
Again, show me where I said that? For someone that claims everyone else is selectively paying attention to things that fit the narrative, you certainly like to put words in someone's mouth to meet your narrative.The smoke around him being a flaming idiot is overwhelming, factually not debatable and continues to billow, since he continues to act like an idiot.
Secondly, the police never stated they didn't have enough reason to make the arrest. They did say they had enough evidence to turn it over to the county prosecutor.
You honestly think there's no abuse here? Police issue in 2009? Again in 2015. Incident report from 2015 outlines abuse in 2014. Dude is having sex in the office, take d*ck pics in the white house. Ordering sex toys to his place of employment. This is a person you think is above abuse of his wife while there's so many things that point to major character flaws? I'll happily agree there's not concrete evidence saying he did, but there's a lot of smoke around him.
Haven't seen that. It could arguably violate Ohio's open records law but not sure it could arise to a criminal matter.I'm on the wrong devise to copy/paste. Just google "Meyer phone delete illegal." They all came out in a 24-hour period 3-4 days ago. USAtoday had one. Ohio outlets had the others.
Good call. The lawyer for Gene Smith would never spin this one way over another.Courtney would never spin it would she? Paul Finebaum wouldn't spin it would he? you see where I am going here.....
For the record, I don't think anyone on this board has stated OSU covered up for abuse. More accurately, some believe that there was domestic abuse happening in the Smith home.
Courtney would never spin it would she? Paul Finebaum wouldn't spin it would he? you see where I am going here.....On multiple occasions in this conversation I've had an open mind to other possibilities. If it's in negative light towards OSU or any of their staff, the same cannot be said about your opinion.
On multiple occasions in this conversation I've had an open mind to other possibilities. If it's in negative light towards OSU or any of their staff, the same cannot be said about your opinion.That’s simply not true. I have repeatedly that Meyer scored up, and could have been fired.
Sure Courtney could spin and the same could be said for so many people.. BUT, you're basically saying, your opinions and statements are BS and not based on fact and here's how I know.. someone with complete knowledge is backing my opinion.... except that person has a singular vested interest in defending the party your opinion aligns with. It's been hypocritical at best.
I can't keep up with all the nuanced arguments that have been made.Yeah, me too.
Yeah, me too.We'll talk about football after tonight. Thank god for football.
This is a slow drip.
These domestic cases are difficult to ferret out. Even cases with injuries sometimes involve issues of who was the primary physical aggressor, was there the use of reasonable force in self-defense. How does a coach who is not a witness to the acts, and not an investigator for law enforcement, sort that out when law enforcement concluded there was no probable cause to believe a crime was committed?The coach doesn't. That's why he's supposed to report it to Compliance, HR, hell, anyone other than himself and the AD, who don't have the training or experience to handle this.
he sounds confused. Often the case on larger Boards- there is always a few. I see it in real life.The Trustee’s must be on those Urban Meyer medications then.
The coach doesn't. That's why he's supposed to report it to Compliance, HR, hell, anyone other than himself and the AD, who don't have the training or experience to handle this.Well, the Title 9 office received the news from campus police- so they told Smith who told Meyer. Even the title 9 person did not share w compliance pending outcome of charges or no charges. As a group they decided to also inform HR- which they did.
The Trustee’s must be on those Urban Meyer medications then.So- the one guy who agrees with your narrative had it right- but the other 19 very accomplished people got it wrong?
Looking at Mr Wadsworth’s bio tells me he seems to be a pretty sharp guy, who spent 11 hours in a room with people trying to spin their way into preservation of their football coach.
What really jumps out at me is the OSU fans citing Courtney Smith that have repeatedly denigrated her reliability and character over a month now that she said something that refuted a police report. As Jay Bilas said there is “some serious rhythmic gymnastics” happening in Columbus to try make this all seem ok, in the name of preserving the football season.
The more I hear and read about this, the more it supports my earlier contention that Meyer is not suspended for his lack of reporting the 2015 incident to anyone, but for his poor judgement in not firing Zach Smith for his multiple transgressions. And to top that off, Gene Smiths lawyer did hit the nail on the head when he stated that part of this was due to appease the media and everyone calling for a scalp based on incomplete facts.That's a pretty fair assessment and really close to where I sit. I might feel a lengthier suspension was in order, especially when factoring the ability to come back for practice weeks more quickly, but it is what it is at this point. I am pretty happy that B1G season kicked off. I also wouldn't mind never hearing from Zach Smith, Lynn Bruce, or any ZS apologists like former player Matt Finkes. The more they say, the more the media focuses in.
As for the issue of DV with ZS, I believe that he is most likely guilty of DV in his marriage, but I also believe that Courtney could be guilty also. But as far as OSU was concerned, I honestly feel that they did what they could to investigate this, but didn't come up with anything actionable on their part.
After all of this, I feel that the suspension handed down by OSU of Meyer is appropriate for allowing ZS to be employed as a coach after all of the things we have found out about his behavior. It is also apparent to me that he was not fired for failing to act on charges of DV that neither he, Gene Smith or the school investigators knew enough to do anything about.
The more I hear and read about this, the more it supports my earlier contention that Meyer is not suspended for his lack of reporting the 2015 incident to anyone, but for his poor judgement in not firing Zach Smith for his multiple transgressions. And to top that off, Gene Smiths lawyer did hit the nail on the head when he stated that part of this was due to appease the media and everyone calling for a scalp based on incomplete facts.That's a very good take. The one and only additional factor for me would be his handling of the media day, specifically the "who makes up a story like that" comment. You nailed everything else.
As for the issue of DV with ZS, I believe that he is most likely guilty of DV in his marriage, but I also believe that Courtney could be guilty also. But as far as OSU was concerned, I honestly feel that they did what they could to investigate this, but didn't come up with anything actionable on their part.
After all of this, I feel that the suspension handed down by OSU of Meyer is appropriate for allowing ZS to be employed as a coach after all of the things we have found out about his behavior. It is also apparent to me that he was not fired for failing to act on charges of DV that neither he, Gene Smith or the school investigators knew enough to do anything about.
Really just STFU,don't piss down our backs and tell us its raining.So reading between the lines he was not only ignorant of his responsibilities but foolishly called others out thinking they were as woefully inept in theirs - idgit.Shame he had to sully and stain the University,yup I'm sure of it - I hate him.That is the exact reason why - what a carnival barker,and as the song says I'm frightened by those that don't see itThen you frightened by me. I don’t see it.
>:(
Sorry for the bump, but it made me laugh and was timely:You sure enjoy stirring the pot don’t you.
https://twitter.com/KVanValkenburg/status/1041695567255154689
And now that he looked straight into the camera and said repeatedly, that he never deleted a single message, and there was never any evidence that he di, I believe him.Good thing he only said what can't be proven.
Good thing he only said what can't be proven.
Had he, on the other hand, contradicted the findings of the independent report and said he didn't conspire to delete evidence with his Director of Football Operation, only in that case should we question his trustworthiness.
Clever. Nice try. We should start a thread “ the sins of our coaches “If you want, by all means, go to the other threads where it's relevant and say what you like about other people. But using this thread to bad mouth people who aren't Urban (or part of the investigation) is just deflecting.
Want to play?
Now that the dust has settled, I am of the position that he didn’t do anything to warrant a suspension. It was politically motivated. What did he actually do wrong?That's fully ok. It's an opinion. Just like it's also OK for others to disagree.
Haters gonna hate.
If you want, by all means, go to the other threads where it's relevant and say what you like about other people. But using this thread to bad mouth people who aren't Urban (or part of the investigation) is just deflecting.Who is deflecting, me or you? Who is bumping a thread that was basically dead? Who seems to want to diminish Meyer, and keep people talking about it, you or me?
"Why focus on this when you can look over there? Whatabout, whatabout, whatabout..."
Big Ten press conference was today. I was encouraged that for the 10 minutes Urban had to speak it was all about football and zero about Zach Smith firing.What happened after the first 10 minutes? Also, thinking back before this week, what would you have thought about the expectation that Urban would get a tougher media crowd for this topic when on the road than when in Columbus?
That's fully ok. It's an opinion. Just like it's also OK for others to disagree.That you imterpret it that way, after now hearing both sides, is shocking to me.
For the record, another time just in case it's been missed, I've been 100% fine with the suspension, but I do think that the decision here was between suspension and termination, rather than between suspension and nothing.
After all: He didn't report up. His boss reported down, and they knowingly kept it between themselves "for months," strategically choosing to leave out Compliance, per the investigation, and not passing it on to Compliance was a dereliction of responsibility and a line-item violation of Urban's contract.
The conspiracy to delete evidence on top of that was also worthy of a "suspension or termination?" conversation.
Who is deflecting, me or you? Who is bumping a thread that was basically dead? Who seems to want to diminish Meyer, and keep people talking about it, you or me?(1) you were deflecting. Telling us that other coaches are also bad or worse is the very definition of deflecting from the topic being had. Anything in this topic that is about Urban, his future, his past, or the investigation is on topic. Anything outside those things may be off topic. Coaches at other schools who are not involved here are off topic. Bringing them up is a deflection tactic.
Is it because the coach you worship has not done what you thought he would? Do you feel like he doesn’t have the “ it “ factor you so crave?
You have made your feelings known way way back. Why the need to shine light on it? What are you afraid of people looking at somewhere else?
(1) you were deflecting. Telling us that other coaches are also bad or worse is the very definition of deflecting from the topic being had. Anything in this topic that is about Urban, his future, his past, or the investigation is on topic. Anything outside those things may be off topic. Coaches at other schools who are not involved here are off topic. Bringing them up is a deflection tactic.You fancy yourself don’t you.
(2) Why did I post this? Because it was timely. Urban just came back from suspension. He also published another fresh apology/explanation -- another one of these silly, long-winded, social media things that are not in the best interest of his own PR.
So ... it was on topic. On time. And funnily worded
Who is deflecting, me or you? Who is bumping a thread that was basically dead? Who seems to want to diminish Meyer, and keep people talking about it, you or me?The “you just hate us becuase we’re good,” line of defense? Mmmm, always a favorite.
Is it because the coach you worship has not done what you thought he would? Do you feel like he doesn’t have the “ it “ factor you so crave?
You have made your feelings known way way back. Why the need to shine light on it? What are you afraid of people looking at somewhere else?
Reading comprehension? The final report said Urban was responsible and contractually specified to report all of this to Compliance ... and didn't.Funny how Smith has that same responsibility, but for some strange reason ther is no outrage or even a peep about that. And he has greater accountability- he AGREED with Meyer that compliance was out of scope.
I'm happy to go copy/past the relevant sections. Brb.
Funny how Smith has that same responsibility, but for some strange reason ther is no outrage or even a peep about that. And he has greater accountability- he AGREED with Meyer that compliance was out of scope.Oh, I think we are all surprised Smith still has a job. On both sides. He arguably made even more mistakes. So what is there to discuss?
And that nobody talks about Gene Smith on this is all the proof needed to illustrate that the outrage against Meyer is because he wins. You, nor anyone else will admit that though.
The “you just hate us becuase we’re good,” line of defense? Mmmm, always a favorite.Ahh, another closet wolverine fan speaks. Thank you.
(FWIW, this got bumped becuase Urby went out and delivered an enlightening, deeply cringe-worthy press conference. This would be the place to talk about it becuase it’s news about the topic. It’s the first time he’s answered questions about it since the report came out)
You fancy yourself don’t you.It’s intersting, in some senses, PC is a way to skirt what some consider the realities of things. Like to be un-PC is to speak out some uncomfortable truth. But here, the un-PC thing is to deny a potentially uncomfortable truth.
I’ll tell you what Dudekd. I have too much respect for you to continue this because I feel you have a bias that is fogging you, and I am sure you feel the same as I do.
Let’s just agree that we disagree.
I will only add that I am not one of the PC mob in today’s culture, who automatically assumes an accuser is telling the truth. It seems to be prevalent these days, and lives get ruined.
I am not one of the PC mob in today’s cultureI'm definitely not pro-PC.
Ahh, another closet wolverine fan speaks. Thank you.AHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA.
It’s intersting, in some senses, PC is a way to skirt what some consider the realities of things. Like to be un-PC is to speak out some uncomfortable truth. But here, the un-PC thing is to deny a potentially uncomfortable truth.Let me give you an example( or just go read CNN with today’s headlines)
Unless what PC and not PC are really about is standing for or against historically ... we’ll say less powerful groups. And if that’s the case, then it is what it is I guess.
AHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA.You always do. Always. And for the record, that’s cool. Good school, great program. I just never understood your veiled attempts to hide it.
HB, if the answer is that anyone poking at the coach who said his only fault is he cares too much must like Michigan, well it’s just dang hard to take seriously.
(F’real, Muck Fichigan forever and ever)
You see, once accused, a high profile person is sunk. There are no good options. Damned if you apologize, damned if you don’t.This is a problem.
This is a problem.Said another way, don’t try to tell the truth or tell your side of the story, because people like Dudekd, who is in the majority, have already decided and take the self righteous position of judge and jury.
Hence, it's best to just report to Compliance.
And, if you make the mistake and don't, it's best for one's PR to at least not mess up the first apology.
And if you do mess up the first apology, don't keep publishing underwhelming apology/explanations to your social media account.
And if you do keep publishing recurrent apology/explanations, at least don't do it 3 or 4 extra times.
Just quit trying to look good. Trust that in a few months or year it'll almost entirely go away.
If you want, we can talk about the way we wish the world could be ... and wonder what it would be like if Urban lived there instead.The environment we are in has nothing to do with Meyer. Don’t be an asshat.
But I figured it was more worthy of our time to talk about the way the world actually is ... and how a person with a suffering reputation can smartly live in it.
In any event, the latter is not the same as supporting a HOW DARE YOU culture.
I will add, I guarantee you that you don’t believe for a second that reporting it to compliance would have changed a single thing. Your too smart to think otherwise.I don't know if reporting it to Compliance would have changed anything. I only know that reporting to compliance was the responsibility of Urban and Gene. That it was in their contracts. That they didn't despite the responsibility and contracts. And that the investigation agreed.
Asking your staff to get and follow the police investigation, conferring with your boss and your Title 9 officer and Human Resources, and asking your troubled employee every day if things are ok at home....but the hey, compliance( who has no authority in this matter) would magically save the day.
And if he had, not one person out there- including you, would have a different opinion. Truth.
He's mad that everyone believes the victim.
You see, once accused, a high profile person is sunk. There are no good options. Damned if you apologize, damned if you don’t. ( you posts here and Bayareawolverine’s illustrate that).
That is what we are talking about.
You are representative- at least to me, of the HOW DARE YOU culture. This thread has made me realize that.Sigh. Please do me the courtesy (or special favor) of reading this and get back to me if your opinion is unchanged
Though it’s objectively good to be nice to people – or at the very least to not be actively offensive – political correctness will never be a practical way to fix this about the world because its spirit of scolding is egotistical and off-putting, making it right for the wrong reason, which naturally causes the objects of its scolding to double down.
We deserve a more humble formula than “HOW DARE YOU, and now that I’ve stolen your attention, guess who also knows the best way for you to live?” Because even if the person saying HOW DARE YOU is correct about something that really matters, their style comprehensively fails. (...) Turns out that "It's not what you say but how you say it" wasn't just a lesson for toddlers.
Unfortunately, the schism between these two sides has become one of the most entrenched aspects of modern western identity and has fueled a sizable chunk of our current volatilty. And tragically, these fights that seem so meaty and essential are usually empty. I.E.: there are good people on the non-PC side who aren't being offensive for offensiveness's sake but rather to spite the PCers for thinking they had the right to be so sanctimonious about anything in the first place.
As for me, I'll admit I lean progressive on most matters, but I see PCness as a sickness and believe that finding a more patient and non-judgy way to express that "being a dick is fine if you're into that but actually, man, just try not to" is one of the most important upcoming social revolutions.
This is a tough nut to crack, and I mean that from a human element.
That’s where we are today. You can call it whatever you want, but if it ever happened to you or someone you care about, people just pile on.
Sigh. Please do me the courtesy (or special favor) of reading this and get back to me if your opinion is unchangedI had read that before. I liked it, and I fact I may have stated that. I actually agree with it.
This is a tough nut to crack, and I mean that from a human element.Pretty well said.
On one hand, if someone was accused of something that I believed to be not true, I'd feel a great deal of sympathy. On the other, if someone I knew was assaulted and utterly not believed, I'd have a great deal of sympathy as well. It's a somewhat unanswerable question.
I suppose I'd try to have sympathy for all. It gets a little muddier when we're talking about damage control, muddled messages and press conferences. I heard on a podcast about the idea of complimenting someone for handling it well, like we're fans of non-answers. Urban gave some real answers, some odd non-answers. He ended up looking not great. Maybe that's because of the PC mob. Maybe it's because he didn't put much to bed. Maybe it's because he showed himself to be the cynic's image of him, snarling and indignant, handed a life vest but a little to proud to show you he can swim.
Then you frightened by me. I don’t see it.Let me clarify something the whole Zack/Courtney chamber pot is a minute reason I can't stand UFM.Coaches wives have come out and said they weren't aware of abuse.Others said they were always fighting.Courtney's own mother repeatedly said she had an attitude/alcohol problem(as if he didn't) and had got in Zach's face also.Beat reporters and I believe it was Ramzy from 11 Warriors said everyone knew about Zach - either late or no show to both staff & team meetings.They also knew that Courtney was a problem child.Ramzey had said something along the lines like "nobody liked Courtney,which is odd because no one liked Zach either."
As I have said from the beginning, and it is more obvious now, nobody believed CS, including the cops.
As Urban said, what was firing ZS going to do to protect her and the kids? Nothing.
This is really more of a social outrage issue, and a guy who thought he could fix something and gave a guy too many chances.
And now that he looked straight into the camera and said repeatedly, that he never deleted a single message, and there was never any evidence that he di, I believe him.
I actually think he is not good in front of cameras, but I am thankful he is substantially better in front of the cameras than some other high profile coaches in the league, even on his bad days.
Hate on......
And once Urban came under the microscope, he made a lot of bad PR mistakes. All of them were predictable in advance and avoidable.I believe that to be spot on - well said,the guy is use to talking to 18-22 year olds who he holds much sway over.It's when he steps out of that realm it turns into whack-a-mole.Again Urbz,don't piss down our backs and tell us it's raining
And once Urban came under the microscope, he made a lot of bad PR mistakes. All of them were predictable in advance and avoidable.Urban is who we thought he was
Let me clarify something the whole Zack/Courtney chamber pot is a minute reason I can't stand UFM.Coaches wives have come out and said they weren't aware of abuse.Others said they were always fighting.Courtney's own mother repeatedly said she had an attitude/alcohol problem(as if he didn't) and had got in Zach's face also.Beat reporters and I believe it was Ramzy from 11 Warriors said everyone knew about Zach - either late or no show to both staff & team meetings.They also knew that Courtney was a problem child.Ramzey had said something along the lines like "nobody liked Courtney,which is odd because no one liked Zach either."wow- where have I heard this before. If you don't see it the way I see it your an idiot. perhaps deplorable too. what a pile of rubbish this post is.
McMurphy broke 2 stories the morning of july23rd,Later that morning Zach is fired.Now I doubt that is coincidental but for the sake of argument let's say it is.Urban Fookin' Meyer knew this festering boil had to be lanced along time ago.He is paid more than handsomely to make sure it is.I don't think for one minute Courtney is a victim but she played that card the minute her meal ticket had been pulled.
The smug narcissist UFM couldn't even take a whole 2 minutes to write a statement addressing the dismissal.Oh Hey thanx,Coach - biggest fargin' media event of the year and you blew it off like you are beyond reproach.A properly worded statement would have went a long was assuaging the shitstorm that followed.Instead the face of the Football program and to some extent the University(like it or not) smells like a bag or burning rats in a Meth Lab.
Meyer grotesquely dismisses & brushes aside inquires from the media who unlike him are prepared and fulfilling their obligations to their employers.He badly stumbles thru some deflections then presents the subject matter as a made up story.Now anyone who can't see that Urbz was either a smug and/or condescending incompetent dick is a blatantly blinded Homer.Most of the us older fans are pissed this poser dragged the good name thru the abyss.And a lot of Grads - even younger ones are not wearing the gear on game day the way they use to !!!.I don't want to hear the wankers attempt to to smooth things over.He talked a lot of shit when in Gainesville and that habit has reared it's ugly head again in C-Bus.Fix something?Ya of his own making,who's fault is that?
Urban is who we thought he wasfurther proof of my point. he has apologized lie 20 times, been ripped apart for his apologies, and you say this- does not think he owes an apology. Nuts.
He's terrible at PR because he's above the public. He has no need for a relationship with the public.
He's never been wrong about anything and therefore there's no reason to apologize.
wow- where have I heard this before. If you don't see it the way I see it your an idiot. perhaps deplorable too. what a pile of rubbish this post is.where have we heard this before....probably Gainesville.That's not a mistake it's a trend.He's always sorry when the obvious is pointed out.There is an old saying - don't be sorry,don't be doing it.
example:So that morning of the Big Ten media days, he got off the elevator and was approached by several members of the media and was asked the same question you are claiming he lied on. He gave them the exact same answer and said that the 2015 incident did not involve an arrest and he did not understand why that’s being sent now.
He will not admit to lying at the Big Ten Media days. He just misspoke
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=24707867 (http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=24707867)
where have we heard this before....probably Gainesville.That's not a mistake it's a trend.He's always sorry when the obvious is pointed out.There is an old saying - don't be sorry,don't be doing it.Doing what?
SMDH - Oh nothing,absolutely nothing there weren't like 34 player arrests during his tenure there.No worries what so ever they were being addressed with the tried and true "Circle of Trust".The envy & blueprint for such obstacles for Programs across the land.Oh- your talking about Florida. Gotcha.
I will add, I guarantee you that you don’t believe for a second that reporting it to compliance would have changed a single thing. Your too smart to think otherwise.
Asking your staff to get and follow the police investigation, conferring with your boss and your Title 9 officer and Human Resources, and asking your troubled employee every day if things are ok at home....but the hey, compliance( who has no authority in this matter) would magically save the day.
And if he had, not one person out there- including you, would have a different opinion. Truth.
There are multiple issues here. I honestly don't believe that Urban condones DV, and had he found Courtney credible, and truly believe Zach hit her, I think he would have been gone.This,neither do most of us it's just the on going circus,that he should have brought down the hammer a long time ago.Urbs obviously knew about his drinking and missing meetings.That bad relationship would have got Zach dismissed at a lot less lucrative positions - so that's something the two brats had to figure out for themselves.But UFM's handling of this abortion that he nurtured for 6 seasons is the crux of the froth
well, the noble Urban has admitted that bringing Zach to tOSU was a mistakeTestify FF Testify
god bless him for that revelation.
There is enough right there for termination.Those oversights are not those of responsible leader of BlueBlood program.I didn't know UFM knew about the stip clubs with HS Coaches no less,and he did nothing.Yup he should have lanced that boil along time ago.And The Ohio State University should lance the boil named Urban Meyer - accountability and conduct unbecoming
- In 2014, ZS goes to a strip club with HS coaches. It's not clear whether this is an NCAA violation, but Urban was without a doubt aware of this and didn't report a potential violation to Compliance.
- In the 2015 investigation, in addition to not reporting anything to Compliance, Urban apparently didn't report anything about the 2009 allegations to Gene Smith, to HR, to anyone. Seems like this would be highly pertinent information for anyone monitoring the investigation.
- Through late 2015 and into 2016, ZS had numerous issues. Being late. Not going on recruiting trips and lying to say he was there. Gene even recommended that Urban fire ZS over this, and he did not do so.
Let me clarify something the whole Zack/Courtney chamber pot is a minute reason I can't stand UFM.Coaches wives have come out and said they weren't aware of abuse.Others said they were always fighting.Courtney's own mother repeatedly said she had an attitude/alcohol problem(as if he didn't) and had got in Zach's face also.Beat reporters and I believe it was Ramzy from 11 Warriors said everyone knew about Zach - either late or no show to both staff & team meetings.They also knew that Courtney was a problem child.Ramzey had said something along the lines like "nobody liked Courtney,which is odd because no one liked Zach either."Wow. This thread really blew up since yesterday when I thought the tweet would be the final talking point, which would quietly end it. Nubbz, this post is hilriously epic because it’s the type of feedback I’m hearing from all of my buddies. Most of them started out defending him initially, but now they’re just pissed and wish he’d stfu. Smug and condescending are definitely common terms being used.
McMurphy broke 2 stories the morning of july23rd,Later that morning Zach is fired.Now I doubt that is coincidental but for the sake of argument let's say it is.Urban Fookin' Meyer knew this festering boil had to be lanced along time ago.He is paid more than handsomely to make sure it is.I don't think for one minute Courtney is a victim but she played that card the minute her meal ticket had been pulled.
The smug narcissist UFM couldn't even take a whole 2 minutes to write a statement addressing the dismissal.Oh Hey thanx,Coach - biggest fargin' media event of the year and you blew it off like you are beyond reproach.A properly worded statement would have went a long was assuaging the shitstorm that followed.Instead the face of the Football program and to some extent the University(like it or not) smells like a bag or burning rats in a Meth Lab.
Meyer grotesquely dismisses & brushes aside inquires from the media who unlike him are prepared and fulfilling their obligations to their employers.He badly stumbles thru some deflections then presents the subject matter as a made up story.Now anyone who can't see that Urbz was either a smug and/or condescending incompetent dick is a blatantly blinded Homer.Most of the us older fans are pissed this poser dragged the good name thru the abyss.And a lot of Grads - even younger ones are not wearing the gear on game day the way they use to !!!.I don't want to hear the wankers attempt to to smooth things over.He talked a lot of shit when in Gainesville and that habit has reared it's ugly head again in C-Bus.Fix something?Ya of his own making,who's fault is that?
There is enough right there for termination.Those oversights are not those of responsible leader of BlueBlood program.I didn't know UFM knew about the stip clubs with HS Coaches no less,and he did nothing.Yup he should have lanced that boil along time ago.And The Ohio State University should lance the boil named Urban Meyer - accountability and conduct unbecomingAt least get your facts straight. When he found out about the strip club he gave both coaches a termination warning and wrote a morality clause about THE NEXT DAY
Wow. This thread really blew up since yesterday when I thought the tweet would be the final talking point, which would quietly end it. Nubbz, this post is hilriously epic because it’s the type of feedback I’m hearing from all of my buddies. Most of them started out defending him initially, but now they’re just pissed and wish he’d stfu. Smug and condescending are definitely common terms being used.Walk away lol. These posts prove my point.
HB - as someone that deeply respects you, I encourage you to walk away from this one. Your responses aren’t you. Your anger isn’t you. I think it’s fair to say you see it different than quite a few people. This topic isn’t bringing out the best of this group. Maybe pack it in?
At least get your facts straight. When he found out about the strip club he gave both coaches a termination warning and wrote a morality clause about THE NEXT DAYNubbz will let me know if I'm wrong but when he typed "did nothing," I think he was just trying to say "didn't go to Compliance for the strip club situation" in fewer words.
At least get your facts straight. When he found out about the strip club he gave both coaches a termination warning and wrote a morality clause about THE NEXT DAYOh that's just rich,Urban warned him about his drinking,Urban warned him about being late to meetings,Urban,warned him about domestic violence,Urban warned him about taking recruits coaches to strip clubs and drinking - that he previously warned him about.But,but,but Shelley and Urbz counseled Courtney and Zach back in 2009 in Gainesville(Urbans words) so if he is to be believed there wouldn't be a need for at least 3 more warnings(that I know about) after that about juvenile behavior.And you don't see a trend there?Yup like the song says "I'm frightened by those who don't see it".
Wow. This thread really blew up since yesterday when I thought the tweet would be the final talking point, which would quietly end it. Nubbz, this post is hilriously epic because it’s the type of feedback I’m hearing from all of my buddies. Most of them started out defending him initially, but now they’re just pissed and wish he’d stfu. Smug and condescending are definitely common terms being used.As one of the older fan, that I guess is in the minority according to Mrnubbz, I hope HB continues to responds to what I consider to be over the top responses to Urban's handling of the whole thing. While many of us don't agree with how Urban handled this whole thing, we "reasonably" think there was nothing to warrant the suspension based on observing the events as they unfolded and reading the report that was produced. We find the hyperbole being spouted (and I use that word intentionally) to be so over the top to be ridiculous.
HB - as someone that deeply respects you, I encourage you to walk away from this one. Your responses aren’t you. Your anger isn’t you. I think it’s fair to say you see it different than quite a few people. This topic isn’t bringing out the best of this group. Maybe pack it in?
I just read we have moved past the Postmodernism movement and we are now into a "post truth" generation. Post Truth is defined by saying there is an absolute Truth, but my opinions and bias are more important. We cherry-pick parts of the truth that reinforce our bias and minimize or ignore other parts.
I feel (
https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10212142369103324&id=1498798014&__tn__=K-R (https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10212142369103324&id=1498798014&__tn__=K-R)Looks about right to me
This sums it up for me.
Walk away lol. These posts prove my point.So, if I may, if I argue Urby did not do this very specific thing, but feel he did several other things wrong and came off as a gross and disingenuous human, you would not fight me on this?
People pile on, get their facts completely wrong and create a false narrative to suit them.
Again, did he cover up or enable DV? Obviously not. Yet that is the narrative
It’s actually humorous. It’s like watching sheep.
Although it's not obvious that Urban did or did not cover up or enable DV, It's definitely not my narrative and doesn't seem to be the narrative on this thread.
Again, did he cover up or enable DV? Obviously not. Yet that is the narrative
It's definitely not my narrative and doesn't seem to be the narrative on this thread.
So, if I may, if I argue Urby did not do this very specific thing, but feel he did several other things wrong and came off as a gross and disingenuous human, you would not fight me on this?No-you nailed it.
I guess my question is, is the narrative you're railing against the specificity of his role in DV discussions or something larger about him in general?
Walk away lol. These posts prove my point.How does my post prove your point? From day 1 I've never stated he covered up DV, but I had the bigger issue with his dishonesty at media day and his smugness. My trail of disdain goes all the way back to BG & how he lied to his players about his departure and then replicated something similar at Utah. He's always been an opportunist that uses people to win. The guy is so arrogant, he can't let this entire thing go and continues to run his mouth. The second that's brought up, you circle back to covering up or enabling domestic violence. I offered friendly advice because you're consistently calling people sheep and making it personal because someone has a difference of opinion.
People pile on, get their facts completely wrong and create a false narrative to suit them.
Again, did he cover up or enable DV? Obviously not. Yet that is the narrative
It’s actually humorous. It’s like watching sheep.
How does my post prove your point? From day 1 I've never stated he covered up DV, but I had the bigger issue with his dishonesty at media day and his smugness. My trail of disdain goes all the way back to BG & how he lied to his players about his departure and then replicated something similar at Utah. He's always been an opportunist that uses people to win. The guy is so arrogant, he can't let this entire thing go and continues to run his mouth. The second that's brought up, you circle back to covering up or enabling domestic violence. I offered friendly advice because you're consistently calling people sheep and making it personal because someone has a difference of opinion.I wasn’t referring to you Super.
Just odd to see you make enemies with folks here defending a guy with a trail of character issues. To repeat, I'm not claiming one of them is covering up domestic violence.
As one of the older fan, that I guess is in the minority according to Mrnubbz,RR,I'm not on the DV bandwagon it's all the other crap,drinking,strip bars,late or absent to meetings excessively so and ad nauseam,across 2 programs and 10 yrs.And then not having a professional,prompt and rational response to media inquiries.After giving the Program/University a black eye he doesn't deserve to rake in 6-7 million and certainly not in C-Bus.Hey at least we'll get him started on his true calling - Politics,he naturally possesses the needed attributes/qualities
Yeah, I think the thread has been much more zoomed in than "was there enabling/covering up?" I'll admit that was the discussion when we lacked info before the investigation went public. But then we transitioned into facts.I don't think this is that condemning,people wipe clean their phones/PCs all the time - its even recommended.Although it appears seedy because of the corresponding timeline to an inquiry.Like Zachs dismissal right after an incredibly unflattering story(s) broke.There is a lot of coincidences involved if you're expecting to be taken credibly
Since then, this thread has been almost entirely about three things:
- Urban and his DFO conspired to delete text messages
I don't think this is that condemning,people wipe clean their phones/PCs all the time - its even recommended.Although it appears seedy because of the corresponding timeline to an inquiry.Like Zachs dismissal right after an incredibly unflattering story(s) broke.There is a lot of coincidences involved if you're expecting to be taken crediblyI'm not saying it happened for sure and Urban absolutely may have already had his phone set up to automatically delete messages before any of this happened. The concerning part isn't that they were deleted, it's that the investigation revealed a conversation between Urban and his DFO that things were getting "bad" and his text messages should be deleted.
I've movedWe'll be welcoming Nebraska to the BIG shortly
42 pages was plenty for me
There are multiple issues here. I honestly don't believe that Urban condones DV, and had he found Courtney credible, and truly believe Zach hit her, I think he would have been gone.I think this pretty much sums up what I concluded from the whole ordeal. Great post @bwarbiany (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?topic=4913.msg67630#msg67630)
The problem is the pattern:
- Knew of and was involved in the 2009 allegations, in which no charges were filed. Obviously doesn't prove anything about ZS, but goes to show that clearly there were issues in that marriage.
- When hiring ZS at OSU, didn't disclose the 2009 issues at all. As stated by the report, he was not required to disclose them, but given future points discussed below, is a potential judgement error.
- In 2014, ZS goes to a strip club with HS coaches. It's not clear whether this is an NCAA violation, but Urban was without a doubt aware of this and didn't report a potential violation to Compliance.
- In the 2015 investigation, in addition to not reporting anything to Compliance, Urban apparently didn't report anything about the 2009 allegations to Gene Smith, to HR, to anyone. Seems like this would be highly pertinent information for anyone monitoring the investigation.
- Through late 2015 and into 2016, ZS had numerous issues. Being late. Not going on recruiting trips and lying to say he was there. Gene even recommended that Urban fire ZS over this, and he did not do so.
- June 2016 Urban advised ZS to go into rehab for a substance abuse issue.
- Upon the start of the investigation, Urban apparently looked into ways to clear old text messages--whether he deleted any is unknown. Perhaps his phone already had the setting turned on so he didn't have to, and thus could truthfully say he didn't delete anything because the setting already took care of it.
The pattern is one of continually protecting someone who was a ticking time bomb. Of withholding key information from Gene Smith and HR during the 2015 investigation that could have affected their recommendations or decisions in the matter. Of allowing himself to be blinded by nepotism in his loyalty to Earl Bruce's progeny to the detriment of the team, and eventually of his own and the university's reputation.
The pattern is that while none of us know whether ZS actually committed DV, Urban showed a consistent pattern to shield ZS from scrutiny and accountability, and thus it's hard for anyone outside of Columbus to truly believe that he would have taken the right steps absent basically a smoking gun.
Again, I think Urban probably found CS to lack credibility, and believed that while the relationship between CS and ZS was toxic, that Zach wasn't abusing her. But one wonders--absent an eyewitness report of ZS slugging Courtney--how long Urban would have looked the other way?