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Topic: Is Urby In Trouble Here?
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HailHailMSP · « **Reply #939 on:** August 23, 2018, 05:45:39 PM »

We are laser focused on 2015.
Gene Smith screwed that one up, and said as much in the press conference. I actually don’t see much blame for UM there.

Urban Meyer didn’t mention the 09 Florida incident with Smith strangling his wife in Florida when he hired him at Ohio State. Nor did he mention it, when the 2015 allegation’s popped up. On that account he failed MISERABLY!

Zach Smith got 50 or so “last warnings.” The leash just kept getting longer with each screw up. That’s usually a novice move by a parent with a toddler, not something you deploy with a grown ass man responsible for 18-19 year olds, making $400k a year.

Urban’s first reaction to all of this, when it hit the fan, was how to wipe text messages off his phone. And it’s clear from the investigative report that his director of football ops disclosed that conversation. That will be one heck of a working relationship going forward.

If there is another bomb to drop it will be the admin assistant for Zach Smith. The investigative media army will pursue that one fully, now that the door has been opened with yesterday’s decision. Her name is all over social media, and her husband / ex-husband was on a scornful Twitter tirade against Urban, before wiping his account in the last week.

This could get uglier in two ways. First, the relationships amongst administrators and coaches could be very mistrustful, given the punishments and who said what in the report. And second, by not biting the head off the snake yesterday, media army is going to swarm and dig for more and more.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #940 on:** August 23, 2018, 05:48:40 PM »

What a whirlwind. I was disappointed by what the investigation found. To me, there was enough there to fire Urban, strictly based on the body of horrible behavior ZS exhibited, and was retained. Combined with Urban not telling Gene Smith about the 2009 incident when he hired him, and Meyer apparently deleting phone texts ( although they did look at something like 10,000 texts.

I will add, if it was just the allegations of DV, I could support a case that Meyer just gave ZS the benefit of the doubt based on the counter evidence and his loyalty to his mentor, Earle Bruce. A sincere apology and admission that he should have reported to compliance and told Gene Smith, and I could support a case for reinstatement. But with what we now know, I feel like he should have been terminated. Just too irresponsible to explain away.

I was expecting horrible backlash, but it is ten times worse than I anticipated. Virtually every tweet, talking head and call in radio voice is treating Meyer like the lowest form of human life. Honestly, the treatment of Art Briles- who covered up years of substantial sex abuse, was not this bad. Perhaps is because of OSU stature compared to Baylor?? It just surprises me in relation to whatever you could say Urban did/ or didn’t do wrong. It just seems out of proportion. Perhaps it is because many have bought the now false narrative that he covered up DV?

One interesting aspect is the cry for such a minimal punishment. People are not understanding how people like Meyer work. It isn’t about the suspension. It’s about the court of public opinion. Many here think he is flippant and does not care about that, and in some ways in routine matters that may be true. But in matters dealing with judgement of the man, his legacy, what he thought he stands for...no punishment can be worse. I have heard things said about Meyer that made my jaw drop, by people with a public platform and freedom to say what they want.

He has been destroyed, permanently. He will never be highly regarded again. That is going to sink in to him over the coming days, and I strongly suspect he will resign. He has no reason to go on, as more wins and accomplishments on the field will not change the media and public perception of him. He is viewed lower than Zack Smith, and that was clear throughout last night ant today. I can’t say that is fair, but I guess that’s the risk of being high profile, acting arrogant, and taking the risk of keeping someone like ZS around, even if it is out of some misplaced sense of loyalty.

This next statement is really for another thread that has not started yet, but I want to get it now, as it is the same as it was for me BEFORE this scandal.

Wisconsin and Michigan will play twice this year, and the winner of that second game will go to the CFP!

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #941 on:** August 23, 2018, 05:51:36 PM »

Quote from: HailHailMSP on August 23, 2018, 05:45:39 PM

Zach Smith got 50 or so “last warnings.” The leash just kept getting longer with each screw up. That’s usually a novice move by a parent with a toddler, not something you deploy with a grown ass man responsible for 18-19 year olds, making $400k a year.

Agreed 100%. As a parent, I know full well that if you never follow up with the punishment that you threaten, the behavior never improves.
How many times do you have to say "if you do X again, you're fired" and not follow up before Smith learned his lesson: I can screw up ANYTHING BUT X, and I won't be fired.

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If there is another bomb to drop it will be the admin assistant for Zach Smith. The investigative media army will pursue that one fully, now that the door has been opened with yesterday’s decision. Her name is all over social media, and her husband / ex-husband was on a scornful Twitter tirade against Urban, before wiping his account in the last week.

FWIW, the OSU findings were that this employee did not report to him. So it wasn't his admin assistant, unless somehow they're dissembling and she was the assistant assigned to him but actually reported to someone else...
But based on what I saw in the summary of findings, it seemed like they were determined to cast Meyer in the best possible light through all of this, so I wouldn't doubt that they'd dissemble on that point.

HailHailMSP · « **Reply #942 on:** August 23, 2018, 05:56:40 PM »

Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on August 23, 2018, 05:41:46 PM

Your last two contributions to this topic have been consistent, if nothing else. First, a beyond vulgar acronym. Now, a meme mocking domestic violence. Not a great representation of “The Buckeye Nation” referenced at the press conference last night.

And fwiw, I feel the same way about the dot the eye and the blackeye memes floating around out there from opposing fans as well. I thought this corner of the earth was above that.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #943 on:** August 23, 2018, 05:57:48 PM »

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 23, 2018, 05:48:40 PM

I was expecting horrible backlash, but it is ten times worse than I anticipated. Virtually every tweet, talking head and call in radio voice is treating Meyer like the lowest form of human life. Honestly, the treatment of Art Briles- who covered up years of substantial sex abuse, was not this bad. Perhaps is because of OSU stature compared to Baylor?? It just surprises me in relation to whatever you could say Urban did/ or didn’t do wrong. It just seems out of proportion. Perhaps it is because many have bought the now false narrative that he covered up DV?

Really? Is it possible that you just didn't see it as this bad because you're an OSU fan, not a Baylor fan?
I seemed to think that the Baylor stuff was popping up in a lot more media than just college sports media. Not as much as Sandusky or Nassar, but a HECK of a lot more than Urban.
And in some ways, he did cover up DV. He didn't mention the 2009 stuff to Gene. He [nor Gene] reported the 2015 incident to compliance. They said it was because there were no formal charges. But the other aspect of the report was that he just thought Courtney made it all up. He didn't believe there was DV, or didn't want to believe it, so he kept the 2009 matter out of everyone's knowledge and the 2015 matter out of the university's compliance team. He kept the experts from knowledge that would have allowed them to uncover a truth he didn't want to find.

Reyd · « **Reply #944 on:** August 23, 2018, 06:19:37 PM »

Urban and Gene appointed themselves judge, jury, and executioner.
They judge Zack innocent and held Courtney in contempt. As jury the found leniency for themselves and pass the light sentence base on their instructions to themselves.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #945 on:** August 23, 2018, 06:36:26 PM »

Quote from: bwarbiany on August 23, 2018, 05:57:48 PM

Really? Is it possible that you just didn't see it as this bad because you're an OSU fan, not a Baylor fan?
I seemed to think that the Baylor stuff was popping up in a lot more media than just college sports media. Not as much as Sandusky or Nassar, but a HECK of a lot more than Urban.
And in some ways, he did cover up DV. He didn't mention the 2009 stuff to Gene. He [nor Gene] reported the 2015 incident to compliance. They said it was because there were no formal charges. But the other aspect of the report was that he just thought Courtney made it all up. He didn't believe there was DV, or didn't want to believe it, so he kept the 2009 matter out of everyone's knowledge and the 2015 matter out of the university's compliance team. He kept the experts from knowledge that would have allowed them to uncover a truth he didn't want to find.

No, it was clear today. And no I don’t think the issues at OSU even come close to what happened at Baylor. Why- do you?
Also, I stated my reasons, as did the committee as to why I don’t think he covered up DV, but also I stated my reasons why I would have fired him. He didn’t. In fact, the DV at this juncture is an allegation.
All I am saying is that the level of unanimous hatred was a bit of a surprise to me. People are talking like Meyer committed multiple rapes.
Again, to summarize:
- I am disappointed in Meyer and would fire him
- the broad level, and depth of hatred for him, surprised me. I get that some of it is just mob mentality/ political correctness, and some of it is the natural process in our society of brininging down high successful people, especially for fans if that person is your enemy.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #946 on:** August 23, 2018, 06:40:06 PM »

Quote from: Reyd on August 23, 2018, 06:19:37 PM

Urban and Gene appointed themselves judge, jury, and executioner.
They judge Zack innocent and held Courtney in contempt. As jury the found leniency for themselves and pass the light sentence base on their instructions to themselves.

Even though I wouldn’t have fired him solely for the reason of the DV allegations, I would fire him for the overall trend of not reporting, erasing phone texts, and allowing ZS to do too much bad stuff.
On your post, I could easily defend him if that was the issue. In fact, given what he knew, what other versions of the truth were swirling around him, and what the police were doing or not doing, I can’t even call his actions unreasonable. If that was lol there was here, I wouldn’t even suspend him.

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #947 on:** August 23, 2018, 06:59:14 PM »

Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on August 23, 2018, 05:41:46 PM

Hey! You're finally coming out of it. No four letter slurs this time.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #948 on:** August 23, 2018, 07:01:08 PM »

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on August 23, 2018, 06:36:26 PM

No, it was clear today. And no I don’t think the issues at OSU even come close to what happened at Baylor. Why- do you?

All I am saying is that the level of unanimous hatred was a bit of a surprise to me. People are talking like Meyer committed multiple rapes.

No, I don't think the issues at OSU come even close to Baylor. What I'm saying is that my perception [as a Purdue fan, not tied to either school] was that the news coverage and outrage over Baylor was much larger than OSU. I'm saying I'm surprised that you seem to perceive the opposite; that it's worse for OSU.
I suggested that might be because you're closer to OSU and other sources--and I'm not sure where you live, bit if it's Ohio, this is obviously going to be bigger news there than elsewhere too. I was suggesting you MIGHT have a skewed version of how big and vitriolic the news is nationally due to that.

I could be wrong. I got off most social media a while ago, so maybe this has blown up in a way I just haven't seen.

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Also, I stated my reasons, as did the committee as to why I don’t think he covered up DV, but also I stated my reasons why I would have fired him. He didn’t. In fact, the DV at this juncture is an allegation.

Again, I'm saying he believes he didn't cover up DV because he didn't believe it existed. Apparently neither he nor Shelley found Courtney credible. And because there were no formal charges filed against Zach, he didn't believe he was required to report it.

But I'm saying that this is exactly why we don't put football coaches in charge of adjudicating whether DV occurred. That's why he's supposed to report to compliance. It's why at my job if I hear of something like this, I'm required to report to HR, even if the person disclosing it begs me not to. Because my job trusts me to be an engineer, not to be an expert on DV.

I'm saying the net effect of Meyer's action is to cover up potential DV, because he kept it out of the eyes of people who know a lot more than him about DV. The Compliance office doesn't try to tell him how to attack a fire zone blitz on 3rd and 9. But the exchange for that is that they don't expect him to determine what things are or are not DV--he's required to report it to them.

He failed to do that, and the net effect was that this entire situation was covered up until this year.

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- the broad level, and depth of hatred for him, surprised me. I get that some of it is just mob mentality/ political correctness, and some of it is the natural process in our society of brininging down high successful people, especially for fans if that person is your enemy.

I think he screwed up. I feel like the OSU investigation was determined to find in his favor, and excused him from blame on some highly sketchy reasons.

But again, I'm a Purdue fan. I don't hate him. I was the one who basically stepped out of this whole discussion once he publicly stated that he follows all reporting protocols, which turned out not to be true. I even created a plausible alternate hypothesis for why Smith wasn't fired--because the divorce "fixed" the issue as they were no longer married and thus any future DV risk was lessened.

It turns out, though, that he didn't follow reporting protocols. He didn't report a lot of Zach's bad behavior to anyone. He harbored a creepy douchebag who was violating OSU policies at best--and who was also a domestic abuser at worst--because he felt bad over Earl Bruce.

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #949 on:** August 23, 2018, 07:02:27 PM »

Quote from: NorthernOhioBuckeye on August 23, 2018, 05:03:48 PM

I get it. However, while listening to the Q&A at the presser, Tim May (Columbus Dispatch beat reporter) asked Gene Smith and Urban about who was responsible for kicking this to compliance. Before Urban could answer, Smith chimed in and stated that it was his job to go to compliance. Tim May then followed up with something to the effect that if it was the AD's job take the matter to compliance, why is Urban on the hot seat for that.

That makes me believe that UM is really being punished, not for failure to report the specific 2015 incident to compliance, but more for ignoring the warning signs of ZS's poor judgement since 2009 and allowing him to remain on staff.

That's according to one of the suspects of the investigation and not an investigator. Fortunately, we don't have to guess. We have the document and investigator Mary Jo White also spoke last night...

Quote from: Anonymous Coward on August 22, 2018, 10:04:59 PM

From the presser portion delivered by Mary Jo White (Investigator), these items were emphasized:

Meyer was aware of the allegations from 2015. He was informed of them by Gene Smith.
Both Urban and Gene regularly monitored the situation for a series of months and noted that it did not result in a law enforcement charges. However, they never reported this knowledge to Compliance.
"In the Domestic Violence context especially, there are many cases in which abuse takes place but there is no arrest or criminal prosecution and so simply relying on law enforcement to take action in the face of such allegations is not an adequate response.”
Meyer did not deliberately lie at Media Days. Investigators found that Urban did not fully recall in 2018 what he knew in 2015, and had been focused on overturning an erroneous felony arrest report (unspecified: McMurphy’s mistake) and was otherwise unprepared.
Meyer showed good respect for women and cooperation through the investigation
A number of instances of misconduct and other problematic conduct performed by Zach Smith while at OSU, some of which was known by Meyer and Smith and some of which was not.

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #950 on:** August 23, 2018, 07:05:37 PM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on August 23, 2018, 04:59:42 PM

This is being twisted by some into a story line that Meyer condoned DV.

That is a hot button item obviously.

Was Meyer supposed to make that report to Compliance in 2015 by contract or policy? I was not clear on that point.

This came up even before the investigation, actually:
New paragraph 4.1 (e) of Meyer's extension reads:
Coach shall promptly report to Ohio State's Title IX Athletics any known violations of Ohio State's Sexual Misconduct Policy (including, but not limited to, sexual harassment, sexual assault, sexual exploitation, intimate violence and stalking) that involve any student, faculty or staff or that is in connection with a university sponsored activity or event. ... For purposes of this Section 4.1 (e), a "known violation" shall mean a violation or allegation of a violation of Title IX that Coach is aware of or has reasonable cause is taking place or may have taken place.
Another new paragraph makes clear that failure to follow this rule could cost Meyer his job.
https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2018/08/the_new_clause_in_urban_meyers.html

Anonymous Coward · « **Reply #951 on:** August 23, 2018, 07:14:17 PM »

Quote from: HailHailMSP on August 23, 2018, 05:45:39 PM

Urban’s first reaction to all of this, when it hit the fan, was how to wipe text messages off his phone. And it’s clear from the investigative report that his director of football ops disclosed that conversation. That will be one heck of a working relationship going forward.

I think, perhaps worse than deleting those texts, was that the investigators learned that Brian Voltolini (Urban's Director of Football Operations) came up with the idea and told Meyer to do it. I said perhaps, because I don't actually know what's worse or all the missing details. But when crucial documents go missing at just the right time, certain evidence of a two-party conspiracy to destroy those documents is at least as damning as the fact that the documents are missing in the first place.
In other words, when the documents are still around, there's room for benefit of the doubt. When there's a known conspiracy to hurriedly delete them, that benefit has to be gone.

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Topic: Is Urby In Trouble Here?

Brutus Buckeye

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HailHailMSP

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Honestbuckeye

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