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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3136 on: July 28, 2020, 10:36:33 PM »
China and India waited for us to lead. Now we wait for them.
F them. Our pour leadership through the years enabled them. One of those "leaders" is running for the highest office in the world, and it isn't the current one.
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MichiFan87

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3137 on: July 28, 2020, 11:54:09 PM »
At this point the EU & UK are leading on clean energy and decarbonization as a whole. China and India are trying to have it both ways with sending mixed messages about investing heavily in renewables (which they are) while increasing (or at least keeping) their coal generation. Southeast Asian and a few African countries are doing this as well, while the rest of the world has basically shut down any investment in coal and many of countries / states are accelerating their closures.

Again if you think we're doomed, I'm not going to change your mind at this point. For full disclosure I am getting involved in the CleanEnergyForBiden.com group, which is doing some great work. He wasn't my first choice by any means, but I do think he'll put the right people in charge of the various departments, at least.
“When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing”
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3138 on: July 29, 2020, 01:02:25 AM »
I think that any plan that doesn't include nuclear energy isn't a serious plan.  Does nuclear energy have downsides?  Yes, it does.  But they are mostly down the road, and the people warning of the emergency and inevitable doom say we have to cut greenhouse emissions NOW.

And they haven't been serious for the last 20 years, or we'd have nuclear energy generating a large and growing percentage of our electricity right now.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3139 on: July 29, 2020, 08:43:06 AM »
For full disclosure I am getting involved in the CleanEnergyForBiden.com group, which is doing some great work. He wasn't my first choice by any means, but I do think he'll put the right people in charge of the various departments, at least.
Cool. Create more progrums and hire more people to do useless jobs while earning generous pay and benefits. Make the gubmint even bigger!!

I'm sure that will solve the problem.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3140 on: July 29, 2020, 08:57:27 AM »
Again if you think we're doomed, I'm not going to change your mind at this point. 

I change my mind based on data, logic, analysis, facts, and results.

I don't change my mind because folks point to wind and solar as a growing thing, I know that, or that some town promised to be totally green by 2030.

I've asked for a plan, facts, substantive information, and I KNOW why no one can respond. 


MaximumSam

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3141 on: July 29, 2020, 09:14:51 AM »
You can't swing a cat without seeing some plan or another. We've developed or been apart of all sorts of plans. The main problem is the plans tend to require leadership, long term commitment, sacrifice, and cooperation. These are not qualities our country has. Also the lack of working knowledge about science is an issue.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3142 on: July 29, 2020, 09:42:39 AM »
I've asked repeatedly for the outline of a general plan here.

I would like to know:

1.  How much will this cost (est.).
2.  How much would it reduce global warming and by when (using the models).
3.  What would it do specifically to replace coal, NG, automobiles, jet aircraft, ships, etc.
4.  Timing.

Just some general estimates would suffice.  I've looked in vain for answers to these points.  The KEY is point TWO.

MaximumSam

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3143 on: July 29, 2020, 09:44:45 AM »
I've asked repeatedly for the outline of a general plan here.

I would like to know:

1.  How much will this cost (est.).
2.  How much would it reduce global warming and by when (using the models).
3.  What would it do specifically to replace coal, NG, automobiles, jet aircraft, ships, etc.
4.  Timing.

Just some general estimates would suffice.  I've looked in vain for answers to these points.  The KEY is point TWO.

Google is a great tool

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3144 on: July 29, 2020, 10:01:40 AM »
Yup, it is, and I've searched for a "plan" as I've noted on many occasions.

https://cgcs.mit.edu/news-release-how-much-difference-will-paris-agreement-make

This site is interesting, this is IF every country meets its obligations under the Paris Climate Accord, which is a large if. 

"Because the climate system takes many years to respond to emissions reductions, in 2050 the SAT falls by only about 0.1° C in all three cases. Meanwhile, the rise in SAT since preindustrial times exceeds 2° C in 2053, and in 2100, reaches between 2.7 and 3.6° C—far exceeding the 2° C goal."

“The Paris agreement is certainly a step in the right direction, but it is only a step,” said Monier. “It puts us on the right path to keep warming under 3° C, but even under the same level of commitment of the Paris Agreement after 2030, our study indicates a 95 percent probability that the world will warm by more than 2° C by 2100.”

And of course it is very dubious that countries overall will meet their targets anyway, but that's another subject.  China will meet their goal of doing nothing and probably exceed it.

MaximumSam

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3145 on: July 29, 2020, 10:06:12 AM »
Yup, it is, and I've searched for a "plan" as I've noted on many occasions.

https://cgcs.mit.edu/news-release-how-much-difference-will-paris-agreement-make

This site is interesting, this is IF every country meets its obligations under the Paris Climate Accord, which is a large if. 

"Because the climate system takes many years to respond to emissions reductions, in 2050 the SAT falls by only about 0.1° C in all three cases. Meanwhile, the rise in SAT since preindustrial times exceeds 2° C in 2053, and in 2100, reaches between 2.7 and 3.6° C—far exceeding the 2° C goal."

“The Paris agreement is certainly a step in the right direction, but it is only a step,” said Monier. “It puts us on the right path to keep warming under 3° C, but even under the same level of commitment of the Paris Agreement after 2030, our study indicates a 95 percent probability that the world will warm by more than 2° C by 2100.”
Looks like a plan to me, and the results substantial.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3146 on: July 29, 2020, 10:13:00 AM »
That looks like a PLAN to you?

OK then.  Some folks appear to be satisfied with vague notional nonexplicit aspirations and goals that will reduce temperature by an unmeasurable amount.

I suppose I am more quantitative, and like at least some general level of detail.

Hint, that in no way is a plan, in NO form or interpretation is that a plan.


MaximumSam

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3147 on: July 29, 2020, 10:16:00 AM »
That looks like a PLAN to you?

OK then.  Some folks appear to be satisfied with vague notional nonexplicit aspirations and goals that will reduce temperature by an unmeasurable amount.

I suppose I am more quantitative, and like at least some general level of detail.

Hint, that in no way is a plan, in NO form or interpretation is that a plan.


Buddy, I love ya, but you don't think the government can successfully identify black people. I'm exactly surprised if you don't think they can change our energy usage of the entire world over a period of decades.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3148 on: July 29, 2020, 10:23:55 AM »
The complete lack of any coherent PLAN is very telling in my mind.  That's because the folks who have looked at the problem realize we are too late in addressing it.

Nuclear is off the table.  No one can present a serious way forward with costs and benefits.  And the MIT group clearly shows that even stretching goals are insufficient.

I realize many here are not technically trained and perhaps don't understand what the term PLAN means.  it is not some aspirational setting of goals someday out in the future.

847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3149 on: July 29, 2020, 10:27:19 AM »
That is not a plan, but this is:

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