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Topic: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game

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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #140 on: September 04, 2018, 12:25:05 AM »
What. Does. This. Mean?
Michigan ran
I-from
Singleback
Singleback jet
Shingleback with a tight bunch
Standard shotgun
Shotgun empty


They ran zone reads, RPOs, had some rollout stuff. They ran power, zone, pin-and-pull toss sweep. They had screens and deeper stuff. They ran the jet out of the jet look for good yardage, and then instead of going to inside zone off that, immediately went for the double play-action. What about it was unimaginative or predictable?

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WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
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MaximumSam

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #141 on: September 04, 2018, 08:40:46 AM »
Overrated: 150 page playbook
Underrated: Knowing who to block

SuperMario

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #142 on: September 04, 2018, 08:45:12 AM »
What. Does. This. Mean?
Michigan ran
I-from
Singleback
Singleback jet
Shingleback with a tight bunch
Standard shotgun
Shotgun empty


They ran zone reads, RPOs, had some rollout stuff. They ran power, zone, pin-and-pull toss sweep. They had screens and deeper stuff. They ran the jet out of the jet look for good yardage, and then instead of going to inside zone off that, immediately went for the double play-action. What about it was unimaginative or predictable? Other than if just didn't work (it interestingly was kind of efficent at moving the chains at times, but there were so few big plays, and eventually Michigan always seem to shoot itself in the foot with a shotgun)
You mentioned Urban, and what's interesting is his stuff was in some ways advanced in imaginative, but also oddly simple. He fused spread and option before a lot of college teams. But he's always run a stripped down passing offense. His scheme has I think five base runs and a lot of stuff off it. Part of his genius was that he got his guys REALLY good at doing the things they did. If you do less stuff better, you win a lot of games.
A team can line in 6 different formations and still turn around and hand it off tackle left. That doesn’t make it creative, it means a lot of energy spent on the same vanilla offense. I think Michigan has stubbornly kept the offense vanilla in the past, believing they could line up and overpower other teams based on talent and execution. They have been very wrong about that.
That’s what Urban understood incredibly well in his early days. His offense may have simplified as his talent has increased, moving up the helmet ladder. In his early days, his spread offense was incredibly complex and unique to the game. So unique, that Bill Belichick called him up and asked him to review his offense with him in the film room. That was after two Super Bowl wins.
So maybe we can agree that Michigan’s formations are complex, but after the snap the issues begin?

bayareabadger

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #143 on: September 04, 2018, 10:06:23 AM »
A team can line in 6 different formations and still turn around and hand it off tackle left. That doesn’t make it creative, it means a lot of energy spent on the same vanilla offense. I think Michigan has stubbornly kept the offense vanilla in the past, believing they could line up and overpower other teams based on talent and execution. They have been very wrong about that.
That’s what Urban understood incredibly well in his early days. His offense may have simplified as his talent has increased, moving up the helmet ladder. In his early days, his spread offense was incredibly complex and unique to the game. So unique, that Bill Belichick called him up and asked him to review his offense with him in the film room. That was after two Super Bowl wins.
So maybe we can agree that Michigan’s formations are complex, but after the snap the issues begin?

First few series
Zone read (back going right) maybe RPO
RPO screen off zone read
Inside zone (went up the middle)
RPO screen off sweep
Boundary sweep off what looks like an RPO
Looks like a straight inside zone give up middle (QB acts like it's a zone read, WRs run a screen, but unclear if that was a real option)
Jet sweep
All hitches out of shotgun empty
A bootleg comeback route on a nice play-action rollout look from the gun
Double play-action out of the jet look (Patterson misses, through there was some pressure)
A lot of intermediate routes out of shotgun 3-wide 
A zero-yard pass with everyone going deep out of shotgun 3-wide 
Bootleg comeback route on a nice play-action rollout look from the gun, looks like the receivers are going deeper
Inside zone give up middle, maybe off RPO
All hitches out of shotgun empty
One short route and a lot of deeper ones from shotgun four-wide

Power right
Inside zone left
A play-acrion out of two-back with a nice 3-receiver levels concept (I'm phrasing that wrong) to the right
Inside zone off the jet look
Just a nice set of intermediate routes out of shotgun twins two-tight
Play-action boot and dump off out of singleback
Inside zone with a wide front
G-down run (Off tackle to the left)
Play-action (Might be spider 2 Y banana, in any case, blown up)
Something I can't 100 percent see out of five-wide

Not a ton of off-tackle left.

I write all this to say, vanilla is not what we're seeing. We have this issue where we assume that bad offense is simple offense. But it's not. You have a word up there that matters far more "execution." If you run your stuff well, you'll win more battles. If you win battles one-on-one, you do well. And there aren't a ton of schemes that fix, my left tackle and right guard are turnstiles. You just need to get them to play better, or you'll suck. 

You mention the Urban/Belichick thing, and at a part, you're half right. You wrote "his spread offense was incredibly complex and unique to the game." It was unique, but it wasn't THAT complex. It just did some ahead-of-its time stuff with getting slots on linebackers in the passing game and making the QB have to count in the run game. He was an innovator at that point, but it wasn't because it was complex. If anything, it was because it was simple. When you have less, you run it better. When you run it better, it works better. 

The best offenses look complex but play more simple. Granted, we're stuck in this patter where we assume complex=good, when it's really not the case. Michigan needs to find some things it does well, and do those a lot. 

SuperMario

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #144 on: September 04, 2018, 10:15:49 AM »
I think they call that checkmate. You clearly went back and watched the game at a play by play level, whereas I’m going by memory of reaction to the live game and it’s pretty apparent my memory doesn’t line up with the reality of the play calling.

BAB 1
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I think your statement about Meyer is fair. I associate innovation with newness and complexity, which in reality may not be correct. I had misconceptions about plays 3 days ago so it’s quite possible that happened for plays run 16 years ago.

Entropy

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #145 on: September 04, 2018, 10:23:19 AM »
my 2 cents...

In CF, you need innovative offensive minds at OC or the HC.   The rules are biased towards the offense and points have to be scored.   Good defense today is holding teams in the low 20's.   But you have to score points to win. 

I also think reducing the decisions is key in CF.   the NCAA has reduced the number of practices, coaches and who can be around the kids in the summer.   a complex system that requires a lot of reps and timing is too difficult without guys being in the system for years and waiting their turn.   Initially, I used to mock Leach's offense.  But he was correct in his approach and making things quicker for his kids.  

When it comes to Michigan I'm not sure they have an innovative offensive mind or a simple system. 

847badgerfan

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2018, 10:23:37 AM »
I'm thinking of putting BaB on the payroll here, to offer detailed write up and analyses for select games.


We'll make him an offer he can't refuse. We'll see what @Drew4UTk and @ELA have to say about that.



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U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2018, 10:26:40 AM »
First few series
Zone read (back going right) maybe RPO
RPO screen off zone read
Inside zone (went up the middle)
RPO screen off sweep
Boundary sweep off what looks like an RPO
Looks like a straight inside zone give up middle (QB acts like it's a zone read, WRs run a screen, but unclear if that was a real option)
Jet sweep
All hitches out of shotgun empty
A bootleg comeback route on a nice play-action rollout look from the gun
Double play-action out of the jet look (Patterson misses, through there was some pressure)
A lot of intermediate routes out of shotgun 3-wide
A zero-yard pass with everyone going deep out of shotgun 3-wide
Bootleg comeback route on a nice play-action rollout look from the gun, looks like the receivers are going deeper
Inside zone give up middle, maybe off RPO
All hitches out of shotgun empty
One short route and a lot of deeper ones from shotgun four-wide

Power right
Inside zone left
A play-acrion out of two-back with a nice 3-receiver levels concept (I'm phrasing that wrong) to the right
Inside zone off the jet look
Just a nice set of intermediate routes out of shotgun twins two-tight
Play-action boot and dump off out of singleback
Inside zone with a wide front
G-down run (Off tackle to the left)
Play-action (Might be spider 2 Y banana, in any case, blown up)
Something I can't 100 percent see out of five-wide

Not a ton of off-tackle left.

I write all this to say, vanilla is not what we're seeing. We have this issue where we assume that bad offense is simple offense. But it's not. You have a word up there that matters far more "execution." If you run your stuff well, you'll win more battles. If you win battles one-on-one, you do well. And there aren't a ton of schemes that fix, my left tackle and right guard are turnstiles. You just need to get them to play better, or you'll suck.

You mention the Urban/Belichick thing, and at a part, you're half right. You wrote "his spread offense was incredibly complex and unique to the game." It was unique, but it wasn't THAT complex. It just did some ahead-of-its time stuff with getting slots on linebackers in the passing game and making the QB have to count in the run game. He was an innovator at that point, but it wasn't because it was complex. If anything, it was because it was simple. When you have less, you run it better. When you run it better, it works better.

The best offenses look complex but play more simple. Granted, we're stuck in this patter where we assume complex=good, when it's really not the case. Michigan needs to find some things it does well, and do those a lot.
Ha. Someone did this when posters were offering up similar critiques of Tressel ball (you, maybe?), and the results were strikingly similar. He was running all kinds of crazy crap, it was just that none of it was getting anywhere.
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

SFBadger96

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #148 on: September 04, 2018, 12:58:06 PM »
Amusing to me how this plays out, especially when not many people here want to admit that ND might be pretty good.

I suspect they are, though certainly not unbeatable. 

In college football, a huge part of the game is just having better players than the other team. Michigan has that against most teams it plays, but not always against Notre Dame (or Ohio State). Michigan has a touch schedule this year, but could still finish very strong--and probably will still win a lot of games.

As for that game: ND's receivers beat the Michigan defensive backfield. ND's quarterback/scheme beat the Michigan front 7. Michigan's offense wasn't consistent enough to beat a pretty good ND defense. Then ND nursed a lead, while Michigan fought its way back in.

ND was the better team on that night, in that environment. Which doesn't mean Michigan is terrible, but it probably does mean this isn't going to be the year Harbaugh comes through with a conference championship.

And that's a hard way for fans to start a season. That's what's always been good or bad about this rivarly, depending on which side of the win/loss you were on. And it's also why it's a shame that it isn't still a regularly scheduled event.

Hoss

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #149 on: September 04, 2018, 01:12:40 PM »
my 2 cents...

In CF, you need innovative offensive minds at OC or the HC.   The rules are biased towards the offense and points have to be scored.   Good defense today is holding teams in the low 20's.   But you have to score points to win.

I also think reducing the decisions is key in CF.   the NCAA has reduced the number of practices, coaches and who can be around the kids in the summer.   a complex system that requires a lot of reps and timing is too difficult without guys being in the system for years and waiting their turn.   Initially, I used to mock Leach's offense.  But he was correct in his approach and making things quicker for his kids.  

When it comes to Michigan I'm not sure they have an innovative offensive mind or a simple system.


I think its also becoming more difficult to find players coming out of HS who are versed in this approach to offense. Spread concepts dominate at the HS level, and have since the current crop of players were children. You start with a lower base of knowledge and experience, then reduce the opportunities to teach it...you're going to have problems. 

The same problem is flowing upward to the NFL, where they are drafting college QBs with minimal knowledge of coverages. All they read during their college career are the apex defender and relevant safety on one side of the field. 

SuperMario

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #150 on: September 04, 2018, 02:32:03 PM »
Amusing to me how this plays out, especially when not many people here want to admit that ND might be pretty good.

I suspect they are, though certainly not unbeatable.

In college football, a huge part of the game is just having better players than the other team. Michigan has that against most teams it plays, but not always against Notre Dame (or Ohio State). Michigan has a touch schedule this year, but could still finish very strong--and probably will still win a lot of games.

As for that game: ND's receivers beat the Michigan defensive backfield. ND's quarterback/scheme beat the Michigan front 7. Michigan's offense wasn't consistent enough to beat a pretty good ND defense. Then ND nursed a lead, while Michigan fought its way back in.

ND was the better team on that night, in that environment. Which doesn't mean Michigan is terrible, but it probably does mean this isn't going to be the year Harbaugh comes through with a conference championship.

And that's a hard way for fans to start a season. That's what's always been good or bad about this rivarly, depending on which side of the win/loss you were on. And it's also why it's a shame that it isn't still a regularly scheduled event.
This is a very true post. Part of the problem is "us Michigan guys" believe we should just be better than everyone from a talent aspect. You know, the speech and all that.
Sometimes it takes us a little time to realize that other teams may have superior players on the field. When reviewing reasons for a loss, that is typically very low on the checklist of areas to review. 

Entropy

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #151 on: September 04, 2018, 02:37:45 PM »
This is a very true post. Part of the problem is "us Michigan guys" believe we should just be better than everyone from a talent aspect. You know, the speech and all that.
Sometimes it takes us a little time to realize that other teams may have superior players on the field. When reviewing reasons for a loss, that is typically very low on the checklist of areas to review.
This is a similar thought/concept to something my dad shared with me when I was younger.   He said "The other team tries too".   Sometimes we forget that.

FearlessF

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #152 on: September 04, 2018, 03:56:38 PM »
This is a very true post. Part of the problem is "us Michigan guys" believe we should just be better than everyone from a talent aspect. You know, the speech and all that.
you know, recruiting rankings and all that
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #153 on: September 04, 2018, 04:00:07 PM »
This is a similar thought/concept to something my dad shared with me when I was younger.   He said "The other team tries too".   Sometimes we forget that.
Or as John Cooper often put it "their coaches coach, and their players play"
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

 

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