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Topic: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game

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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #126 on: September 03, 2018, 06:39:06 PM »
Why are you trying to bring facts into this? We're trying to find a scapegoat! :57:
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

SuperMario

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #127 on: September 03, 2018, 07:20:43 PM »
I should clarify, I meant to say that didn't happen in the Michigan game. There was little run-run-pass, and there were more than a few perimeter runs
Although I greatly appreciate the research you put into it, my comment was more along the lines of what Nubbz was saying. It wasn’t that Michigan was actually going run run pass, it was a description of the vanilla playcalling and lack of creativity. 

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #128 on: September 03, 2018, 07:43:35 PM »
Classic. 

Now he's gonna try to bluff his way out of it.
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

Honestbuckeye

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #129 on: September 03, 2018, 08:54:57 PM »
I think we are coming to too many conclusions after one game, just like we do every year.  Don’t under estimate Warriner, and understand you have what looks like two good QBs now.   It will be better than you think.   My 2 cents....
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

SuperMario

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #130 on: September 03, 2018, 09:12:42 PM »
Probably HB, but Harbaugh teams have seemed soft and very vanilla on offense. 9-9 in 18 games is a tough pill to swallow.

ELA

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #131 on: September 03, 2018, 09:39:03 PM »
I ... I am not sure either of these things is true.

Tactically, I think Jim has, at times, a decent to good level of creativity. He was great with the 49ers. Saturday was probably diverse enough tactically. But he can't seem to get his running backs, quarterbacks or offensive linemen to be good. And that kills everything.

As for Urban, don't we complain every year when the lose that the "his offense" part of the offense cost them? I mean, I know he says he steps back, but the offenses always seem to look like Urban Meyer offenses (this year might be different)
If people say that about Meyer, I haven't heard it, and I disagree with it.  Are his finger prints on it?  Sure, it's his team.  But it has varied enough QB to QB and OC to OC for me to buy any argument that he has too much control.  Has OSU had bad offensive games?  Sure . But it speaks to the level his teams function at that we overreact when he has a bad one.  Any coach but Meyer and Saban is allowed a bad game without some sort of macro criticism.

SuperMario

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #132 on: September 03, 2018, 10:18:12 PM »
Classic.

Now he's gonna try to bluff his way out of it.
My neighbors house is up for sale if you want to move into the neighborhood and peak in my windows.

bayareabadger

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #133 on: September 03, 2018, 10:42:07 PM »
Although I greatly appreciate the research you put into it, my comment was more along the lines of what Nubbz was saying. It wasn’t that Michigan was actually going run run pass, it was a description of the vanilla playcalling and lack of creativity.
Ahhh, good. We're now saying, that while we're describing things a certain way, we're kind of looking for the right words to describe a feeling of sorts.
So let me posit this. The Michigan play-calling is not vanilla, nor does it lack creativity. It's just that the offense is bad/underwhelming. That might be player quality, not necessarily talent but development. Maybe, MAYBE it's about scheme fit and such. But creativity, probably not.
Because they're not vanilla. If anything, they're chunky monkey topped with funfetti, pickles and egg rolls. Michigan ran no fewer than 6 or 7 distinct offensive looks. They did all sorts of things with a hot and cold QB, not great RBs and a lint that gets blown through. 

We have this belief that complexity equates to success. And it often doesn't (this is a great lesson of high school football and a lot carries over). Just because you're good doesn't mean you're outsmarting someone. Out executing, having better technique, winning battles, this is far, far more important than the calls. 

bayareabadger

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #134 on: September 03, 2018, 10:45:26 PM »
If people say that about Meyer, I haven't heard it, and I disagree with it.  Are his finger prints on it?  Sure, it's his team.  But it has varied enough QB to QB and OC to OC for me to buy any argument that he has too much control.  Has OSU had bad offensive games?  Sure . But it speaks to the level his teams function at that we overreact when he has a bad one.  Any coach but Meyer and Saban is allowed a bad game without some sort of macro criticism.
The "QB got too many carries and the RB didn't get enough game"? I feel like those happen each year. 
I guess, I've never felt there was THAT much difference in terms of approach from Mullen to Addazio or Herman to Warinner to Wilson. Granted, some are better than others, but it never felt like they did THAT much differently. 

SuperMario

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #135 on: September 03, 2018, 10:59:44 PM »
Ahhh, good. We're now saying, that while we're describing things a certain way, we're kind of looking for the right words to describe a feeling of sorts.
So let me posit this. The Michigan play-calling is not vanilla, nor does it lack creativity. It's just that the offense is bad/underwhelming. That might be player quality, not necessarily talent but development. Maybe, MAYBE it's about scheme fit and such. But creativity, probably not.
Because they're not vanilla. If anything, they're chunky monkey topped with funfetti, pickles and egg rolls. Michigan ran no fewer than 6 or 7 distinct offensive looks. They did all sorts of things with a hot and cold QB, not great RBs and a lint that gets blown through.

We have this belief that complexity equates to success. And it often doesn't (this is a great lesson of high school football and a lot carries over). Just because you're good doesn't mean you're outsmarting someone. Out executing, having better technique, winning battles, this is far, far more important than the calls.
Not sure I agree. I wouldn’t say scheme is inferior to execution, but it sounds like that is your stance. I think you need a highly effective scheme that is executed well. If you have a poor scheme, with little imagination, execution won’t get you over the top. Imagination and creativity become important because of predictability.
Urban Meyer was the head coach when I went to BG. Although his teams executed well, he didn’t take an irrelevant MAC school into the national spotlight because they started tackling and blocking well. His offensive schemes were so far advanced for their time that his inferior talent could hang with almost anyone solely based on superior coaching.
Where I think we see eye to eye is development of talent. I’m not pinning the lack of success solely on play calling. As you alluded, it seems many players aren’t reaching their potential. So one of two things is happening. 1) player development blows or 2) players are getting extra stars because they’re going to a helmet school that generates money. That part, I have zero confidence in an opinion.

ELA

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2018, 11:00:44 PM »
Yeah, like I said when you are Meyer or Saban, your bad games are so rare, people are prone to make sweeping assumptions when they happen.  He's had bad games, but I've never picked up on any bad trends.

bayareabadger

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #137 on: September 03, 2018, 11:11:06 PM »
Yeah, like I said when you are Meyer or Saban, your bad games are so rare, people are prone to make sweeping assumptions when they happen.  He's had bad games, but I've never picked up on any bad trends.
Agree to disagree there. I've always felt he ran the Urban offense, granted, he's been good at augmenting it. I think the central spirit is him, but he's adding from OCs and they're adding from him. 

bayareabadger

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #138 on: September 03, 2018, 11:18:20 PM »
Not sure I agree. I wouldn’t say scheme is inferior to execution, but it sounds like that is your stance. I think you need a highly effective scheme that is executed well. If you have a poor scheme, with little imagination, execution won’t get you over the top. Imagination and creativity become important because of predictability.
What. Does. This. Mean?
Michigan ran
I-from
Singleback
Singleback jet
Shingleback with a tight bunch
Standard shotgun
Shotgun empty


They ran zone reads, RPOs, had some rollout stuff. They ran power, zone, pin-and-pull toss sweep. They had screens and deeper stuff. They ran the jet out of the jet look for good yardage, and then instead of going to inside zone off that, immediately went for the double play-action. What about it was unimaginative or predictable? Other than if just didn't work (it interestingly was kind of efficent at moving the chains at times, but there were so few big plays, and eventually Michigan always seem to shoot itself in the foot with a shotgun)
You mentioned Urban, and what's interesting is his stuff was in some ways advanced in imaginative, but also oddly simple. He fused spread and option before a lot of college teams. But he's always run a stripped down passing offense. His scheme has I think five base runs and a lot of stuff off it. Part of his genius was that he got his guys REALLY good at doing the things they did. If you do less stuff better, you win a lot of games. 

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game
« Reply #139 on: September 04, 2018, 12:19:28 AM »
My neighbors house is up for sale if you want to move into the neighborhood and peak in my windows.
No thanks. 

1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

 

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