CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Temp430 on August 27, 2018, 07:20:49 AM
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I have a hard time seeing the Irish score on Michigan. Michigan's OTs are good enough and Nico Collins steps up.
Michigan 16
Notre Dame 0
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Notre Dame.
(https://mgoblog.com/sites/mgoblog.com/files/images/Game-Column_149B9/14976017199_3c24f3d381_z.jpg)
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First one to 15 wins.
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It looks certain to be low scoring, ergo ...
ND 27 UM 24
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Would probably have to go Michigan here. At least we know they have a good defense, which is about the only thing we know for sure about these teams. Wimbush could make a few plays but he's not accurate enough to move down the field much. Some thought the Irish will play both QB's. The defense is experienced, but have yet another coordinator.
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It looks certain to be low scoring, ergo ...
ND 27 UM 24
No way ND puts up 27 on that defense. Only way ND gets to that much is if there are special teams break downs or the Michigan offense throws some pick 6's or puts the ball on the ground and the Irish have a scoop and score.
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If anyone can crack a D with an entire off-season to prepare, it's BK.
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wishful thinking
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If anyone can crack a D with an entire off-season to prepare, it's BK.
what? I was unaware that Brian Kelly was some kind of offensive genius. If he was ever thought of such, think he's lost that.
Brandon Wimbush is a 49% passer. Not sure that's going to cut it against a Don Brown Michigan defense that should be a big pain in the ass for offenses all year long.
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First one to 15 wins.
this is how I feel.
ND should have a really good defense. Michigan should have an elite defense.
Neither of those offenses will do much imo.
First one to 17 points wins.
Unless there are special teams and/or defensive touchdowns- 17 points is all it'll take to win.
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I agree, which is why I disagree.
It SHOULD resemble the UGA-ND game last year, but when things SHOULD happen, they often don't. Of course, the do at times as well. Should be interesting no matter what as I don't care who wins.
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I agree, which is why I disagree.
It SHOULD resemble the UGA-ND game last year, but when things SHOULD happen, they often don't. Of course, the do at times as well. Should be interesting no matter what as I don't care who wins.
yeah, I can see what you're saying. Whenever everyone expects one thing the other happens.
But neither of these teams will have very good offenses in my opinion. And both defenses will be very good.
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No way ND puts up 27 on that defense. Only way ND gets to that much is if there are special teams break downs or the Michigan offense throws some pick 6's or puts the ball on the ground and the Irish have a scoop and score.
In other words the typical early/inexperienced yips.Patterson could be the QB M has been looking for
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GO BLUE!
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If it happens that ND beats UM 20-something to 20-something, it is not a sign I am prescient at all. It could well be 6-4 in double OT. That should be a fun game, one of quite a few this weekend I think. We should "think" we know more come Monday.
We probably don't though.
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true
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this is how I feel.
ND should have a really good defense. Michigan should have an elite defense.
Neither of those offenses will do much imo.
First one to 17 points wins.
Unless there are special teams and/or defensive touchdowns- 17 points is all it'll take to win.
I don't think we know enough about the M offense to say that yet. I'm a little nervous with McCray & Hurst absent from the defense, but there's a lot of talent that returned so hopefully not a significant dropoff. I think this is low scoring, with one exception, Patterson is the real deal and explodes onto the scene. I don't expect that.
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I don't either, not the first game in a new system
maybe by midway thru the season
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GO BLUE!
Go shower.
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chew on a bar of soap
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If anyone can crack a D with an entire off-season to prepare, it's BK.
From the other page:
https://mobile.twitter.com/PFF_Gordon/status/668322924424781824 (https://mobile.twitter.com/PFF_Gordon/status/668322924424781824)
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I don't think we know enough about the M offense to say that yet. I'm a little nervous with McCray & Hurst absent from the defense, but there's a lot of talent that returned so hopefully not a significant dropoff. I think this is low scoring, with one exception, Patterson is the real deal and explodes onto the scene. I don't expect that.
I worry most about missing Mo Hurst. He was a Top 10 player last year, regardless of position. I don't think linebacker is of concern, though. I think McCray was great against very traditional offenses, but wasn't born for the modern era. No more than a guess but Gil or Ross don't worry me. Back to Hurst, unless Rashan and Winovich just go off also, I think even if Dwumfour, Solomon, and Mone are all hits in productivity, Michigan could still hugely miss Hurst. He was a different kind. And I know MDot is most worried about the safeties. They're my second concern, but I don't think it's as impactful to the game as interior DL, love the idea of Ambry at nickel and its effect on all the DBs, and am excited to see what Don Brown can do with these particular returnees in his third year.
It does feel like good news that after thinking those 2-3 "could really work except we'll have to see," I don't think I have a single anxiety about the entire defense.
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If we're basing our expectations for this season off of last year's results (and we mostly are), looking at 2017 in hindsight, Notre Dame lost to the teams they were expected to lose to, and beat the teams they were expected to beat. The same is true for Michigan, except perhaps in their bowl game. Each had performances that raised eyebrows, even in hindsight. The Irish crushed USC, took eventual runner-up Georgia to the wire, and handled MSU without difficulty...but they squeaked by Navy and Wake Forest and were embarrassed in Miami. Michigan had fewer highs and lows. They were smoked by Penn State and needed OT to get past Indiana. The biggest question mark on their schedule remains their bowl loss.
Both were good, but neither team was a world beater last season. Michigan appeared to have the better defense, but when playing the top teams, it cracked. Notre Dame's defense didn't do as well under the eye test, but the Irish beat better teams than Michigan did (USC and LSU). And against their only common opponent, Michigan lost at home to MSU, and the Irish crushed MSU in East Lansing.
With graduation, recruiting, and a summer to think about it--as well as playing a tough, emotional game to start the season, it's hard to do much more than react to last season and hope the ball bounces the way you want it to.
Because I want the ball to bounce ND's way, I'll point out that Notre Dame appears to be coming off a better season than Michigan preparing for the big game, i.e., the bowl game, ND got it done, Michigan did not. Since this is game one against an old and hated rival, this feels kind of like a bowl game. So I like that. I also like that it's at Notre Dame.
But if I were a Michigan fan, I would point out Michigan's defense and Notre Dame's less predictable tendencies.
Notre Dame 13, Michigan 10.
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I just love this game. I've missed it.
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I worry most about missing Mo Hurst. He was a Top 10 player last year, regardless of position. I don't think linebacker is of concern, though. I think McCray was great against very traditional offenses, but wasn't born for the modern era. No more than a guess but Gil or Ross don't worry me. Back to Hurst, unless Rashan and Winovich just go off also, I think even if Dwumfour, Solomon, and Mone are all hits in productivity, Michigan could still hugely miss Hurst. He was a different kind. And I know MDot is most worried about the safeties. They're my second concern, but I don't think it's as impactful to the game as interior DL, love the idea of Ambry at nickel and its effect on all the DBs, and am excited to see what Don Brown can do with these particular returnees in his third year.
It does feel like good news that after thinking those 2-3 "could really work except we'll have to see," I don't think I have a single anxiety about the entire defense.
Hurst is a loss. For sure. McCray...hate to be that guy- but eh not so much. Don Brown loves to play his LB's and safeties in man. McCray got smoked every single time he was forced to play in man coverage. It was bad. Real bad. Devin Gil is a former HS safety who can really scoot for a LB'er. Josh Ross is going to be a player. Every insider report over the last year plus has been raving about the kid. He's a much faster/quicker athlete than McCray as well.
As for Hurst- you'd hope you can make up for some of that loss of production with Gary and Winovich taking their games up a notch and having more depth along that DL rotation this year. Last year they really lacked depth. Won't be a problem this year. As good as Gary and Winovich were last year- they have lot of room to get even better. Winovich was a first time starter ever- and Gary was only a true soph in his first year as a starter. Gary is just scratching the surface. He's primed to hit his peak this year and off to the NFL as a top 5 pick.
The safeties are honestly the only thing about the defense that scares me. Don Brown loves to play them in man and they just can't do it. Look at the OSU game and the Penn State game. When did either team have success throwing the ball on offense? When they isolated McCray on the RB or TE or Kinnel & Mettelus in man to man on the slot receiver. Watch the tape again. Those were the real weak points of that defense. That starting CB duo of Long & Hill honestly really didn't give up much to anyone- even the better teams.
The Cornerback position is loaded. Hill and Long are future NFL draft picks. And Brandon Watson has taken a huge jump this off-season as it sounds like he's been fighting tooth and nail to keep another future NFL draft pick CB off the field in Ambry Thomas. Watson might be the most improved player on the defense in fall camp- sure sounds like it.
This was the youngest defense in the country last year. Replaced 10 starters from 2016. Most of the starters and depth players were freshman or sophomores. It was a super young defense. Still finished 3rd in total defense and #10 in the S&P+ defensive rankings. An entire year of game experience, another spring ball and fall camp- Brown is just going to be able to install more wrinkles and get these guys on the same page playing faster. The defense should be absolutely fantastic.
The ONLY thing that scares me to death is the safety position. Mettellus is pretty bad to be quite honest and Kinnel is just average. Wouldn't be that big of a problem- but Don Brown asks those guys to play way more man to man coverage than he should.
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Hill and Long are the best returning corner duo in the nation by a margin per PFF (their "passer ratings against" were 38.4 and 11.9, repectively), and Ambry is still pushing them from behind. And even then I think Watson is the stickiest of the bunch. That's not from offseason fluff. It's from last year. I don't think there's a standard stat focused enough to prove it, but by my eye thought he had the tightest coverage on his downs. Last season, Watson's problem was never technique or stickiness...it's recovery those rare times he gets ghosted. That's where guys like Hill and Long way overtake him. But being consistently sticky is a very useful skill. And it's fair to think DB knows hot to use it. He'll be a huge luxury on third and long.
And then right after that is Casey Hughes, the multi-year starter from Utah who grad transferred. It's a great corner situation.
It's also year three of Don Brown. He's had a Top 5 defense for 3 years running, twice at #1. And now with 9 returning starters including these corners, these LBs and these ends. I can't remember if the total number of guys was 6 or 8, but over the summer PFF publiushed an All-Big Ten 1st team defense on returning production. Michigan had more than half of the 11. Defense is going to be fun.
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It's also year three of Don Brown. He's had a Top 5 defense for 3 years running, twice at #1. And now with 9 returning starters including these corners, these LBs and these ends. I can't remember if the total number of guys was 6 or 8, but over the summer PFF publiushed an All-Big Ten 1st team defense on returning production. Michigan had more than half of the 11. Defense is going to be fun.
the defense is loaded with NFL players. Winovich and Gary are going to be NFL draft picks along the DL. Bush and Hudson at LB. Hill and Long at CB. Lot of high level talent on that defense everywhere except.....safety.
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I believe that if you were to guess at the Big Ten's top two or so DLs, LBs, and corners, the only team on all three lists is Michigan.
Of course, no side of the ball can ignore its weakest links and unlike many others the safeties don't look like first or fourth rounders. But they aren't bad. Just the least touted here. Absent that one aspect of their games in 2017 (they do make mistakes in man coverage), they were reliable.
Still, I remain confident that the roster has grown to include MANY more man coverage options in nickel/dime than last year (Ambry, Watson, JKP, Hawkins) and that Don Brown Year Three is well positioned to fix it, too.
At all of his stops, it usually took until year three for his defenses to really take off. I know the rankings from 2016 and 2018, but it is possible that Don Brown's defense hasn't taken off yet.
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so, I guess I'll take Michigan and the 1.5 points.
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so, I guess I'll take Michigan and the 1.5 points.
who really knows, ya know?
Michigan's safeties are pretty mediocre. Not sure that Brandon Wimbush really has the arm to expose them though. He's a 49% passer. Suppose to rain according to the weather forecasts- which will affect both teams passing.
It'll be a really close game.
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I was hoping for more confidence than that
this is my $$$ we're talking about
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I've never been a gambler, but I wouldn't take Michigan confidence and Big Ten dislike for Notre Dame as a basis for placing a bet on a game like this. These were two good, but not great teams last year, with consistently good recruiting, who have underwhelmed their fan bases for each of their last three head coaches (ND for four). Expectations are always high this time of year.
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For sure. This isn't the place to research bets. 2015 and 2016 aside, we've been generally AWFUL at predicting Michigan's seasons since 2007. Then again, even over the awful years, Michigan continually did enough to grow its lead in the all-time series versus ND.
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Maybe I have irrational exuberance, but I'm starting to have an overwhelming amount of confidence in this Michigan team. This is an incredibly talented team that has had only one hole the last few seasons. That hole just happened to be the most important position in the sport, QB. Many folks around Ann Arbor saying that Shea Patterson has the "it" factor. Starting to get a little giddy.
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Should be one of several really interesting games out there this weekend.
I have a notion LSU upsets Miami. I hear LSU found a QB also from somewhere up north.
Bama plays Laville which could stay close for a while, perhaps 5 minutes or so.
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Maybe I have irrational exuberance, but I'm starting to have an overwhelming amount of confidence in this Michigan team. This is an incredibly talented team that has had only one hole the last few seasons. That hole just happened to be the most important position in the sport, QB. Many folks around Ann Arbor saying that Shea Patterson has the "it" factor. Starting to get a little giddy.
HE'S GOT THE FEVER! AND THE ONLY CURE...
https://vimeo.com/241311990 (https://vimeo.com/241311990)
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Maybe I have irrational exuberance, but I'm starting to have an overwhelming amount of confidence in this Michigan team. This is an incredibly talented team that has had only one hole the last few seasons. That hole just happened to be the most important position in the sport, QB. Many folks around Ann Arbor saying that Shea Patterson has the "it" factor. Starting to get a little giddy.
This I don't get. M has signed 5 4* QB's since 2015, not to mention all the transfers. Who is in charge of development of the important position? It doesn't add up for me.
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sure it does, you just like poking Harbaugh
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Yes, of course, but WTF? With all of that talent rolling in the door you'd think they might have been able to have a great QB and not need a transfer every year.
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Ya know, if either beats the other by a handy amount, let's say 17 points, they will jump in the rankings and the other will dip a fair bit but not much. It could turn out that the loser was really akin to Florida last year.
I love rankings.
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Fans from the West keeping proving that recruiting stars mean very little
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This I don't get. M has signed 5 4* QB's since 2015, not to mention all the transfers. Who is in charge of development of the important position? It doesn't add up for me.
This is very misleading. And simple thinking.
Harbaugh got to Michigan with a month to recruit the 2015 class.
He signed Zach Gentry, who was moved to TE. He was a 6'7, 230 pound HS option QB really. Didn't really throw the ball, was more of a runner. I'd say that position switch to TE looks pretty good right now as Gentry is a young rising star at the TE position. Genrty was only rated so highly because of his size and athletic ability. He wasn't some hot-shot pro-style QB recruit like Josh Rosen. He was a 6'7 athlete playing QB in high school. Alex Malzone was a Hoke commit, who honestly should've never been rated as high as he was. I've often said he got a raw deal because he wasn't given a shot to play QB here- when there was garbage like Speight and O'Korn handed every opportunity and then some. But the reality is- the kid wasn't a 4*. He probably got the helmet team bump.
Harbaugh has signed 3 actual QB's that he went out and got and were rated 4* and accurately such. Brandon Peters in 2016. Dylan McCaffrey in 2017. Joe Milton in 2018. It takes time to develop a QB. You do know that, right? Peters was a RS Frosh last year and McCaffrey redshirted and Milton was still in high school. Peters was the most ready out of high school of those 3. McCaffrey probably the most athletic all around- but was very skinny as a true frosh. Milton the most physically imposing with the biggest arm- but by far the most raw of those 3. Was always going to take time to develop one of them. Peters actually looked pretty promising as a Rs frosh- that was until that ugly bowl game performance.
Now, as far as the transfers go...Jake Rudock was a guy Iowa didn't want. Thought he couldn't play. They were replacing him with someone else. He would up being by far the best QB that Harbaugh has had at Michigan. And it's not close. O'Korn was a straight up bum whose transfer should've never been accepted. He was the worst QB in the FBS the year he got benched for a RB moonlighting as a QB at Houston. O'Korn literally had the worst QBR rating in the entire FBS that year. Rudock was a 2* recruit, O'Korn was a 3*. Out of a powerhouse HS in South Florida called St. Thomas Aquinas, so it's not like either of them lacked exposure. Might be a case where maybe- just maybe- the recruiting rags were right.
As for Patterson- no question he's got enormous talent. By far the most talent of any QB that Harbaugh has had to work with yet at Michigan. Also the highest rated. Patterson was a high school star at IMG Academy in Florida. He won the Elite 11 MVP, won the Army bowl MVP, was the #1 rated QB and #3 rated player overall in the 247Composite. He showed flashes on the field at Ole Miss in 3 games as a true frosh and 7 games as a true soph. He also showed a lot of inconsistency- which is what you'd expect out of a young QB. Patterson is going to have to hone himself in and just bring consistency to the position. If he tries to be Superman all the time like he did at Ole Miss it'll cost Michigan games. Ole Miss was so bad on defense maybe he felt like he had to do that. I don't know. All he has to do is make plays when they are there, turn on that play-making improvisational when necessary, and just execute the offense. They don't need him to be Superman. They just need him to be competent and above average.
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For sure. This isn't the place to research bets. 2015 and 2016 aside, we've been generally AWFUL at predicting Michigan's seasons since 2007. Then again, even over the awful years, Michigan continually did enough to grow its lead in the all-time series versus ND.
Michigan, even in the down years, seemed to continually play well against Notre Dame. That game always being early, and given the helmet bump each gets, tended to give it an artificial importance boost, which frequently led to UM getting an early rating bump.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that four times in 5 years (2009, 2010, 2011, 2013) UM's best performance of the season came against Notre Dame.
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I think that's right ELA. And though the past doesn't predict the future in this way (past ND games are irrelevant to predicting this one), fans tend to forget it and increment their confidence anyway. And we are.
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2017 was probably the only season in which Harbaugh hasn't shown excellent QB development - at Michigan or elsewhere. It may also be the only season in which he lost the best two guys to injury (just a thought - I haven't confirmed that).
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Some programs seem to find QBs who can play as freshmen, though it rarely is ideal.
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Some programs seem to find QBs who can play as freshmen, though it rarely is ideal.
We heard from multiple places how needlessly complicated the Michigan offense had been. A complicated offense and an underperforming offensive line tends to wprk against transfers and underclassmen having early success at the QB position.
It's a new OC and a new OL coach this year.
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Yeah. I'm still puzzled by Drevno. The growing narrative is that he was severely unenjoyable for even the coaches to be around, sensitive about his place in the hierarchy ... and also a bad coach insofar as the kids weren't getting it and he kept moving on anyway.
Whether that is close to true or wishful scape goating will be partially answered this season. If it ends up true: what the heck happened? He was great at Stanford, San Fran, and USC. And I don't think the likely answer is that Michigan linemen weren't smart enough to play for him. Either he never changed and Michigan is still in trouble or he did change and the story is secret and probably interesting.
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We heard from multiple places how needlessly complicated the Michigan offense had been. A complicated offense and an underperforming offensive line tends to wprk against transfers and underclassmen having early success at the QB position.
It's a new OC and a new OL coach this year.
A lot of wisdom in this post.
Michigan 2018 - Keep It Simple Stupid.
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2017 was the only season in which Harbaugh hasn't shown excellent QB development - at Michigan or elsewhere. It may also be the only season in which he lost the best two guys to injury (just a thought - I haven't confirmed that).
I'd partially agree with that. Rudock was excellent in 2015. 2016 Speight was OK for 9 games but then terrible against Iowa- even before getting injured- and Speight pretty much single-handedly lost them the Ohio State game. Speight threw a pick 6 and what was essentially another pick 6 that Ohio State returned all the way to the red-zone and then after a penalty on Michigan during the return Ohio State wound up with a 1st and goal from the 4 yard line. Basically two pick 6's. There was zero improvement in Speight from 2016 to 2017. If anything he got worse. He was the sole reason Florida was in the game during the opener in 2017 as he threw back to back pick 6's.
Honestly think it says more about Speight than Harbaugh- but Harbaugh is the one who made him the starting QB and then decided to let O'Korn come transfer in. Harbaugh would've been better off starting Brandon Peters as a true frosh in 2016 and then having McCaffrey back up as a true frosh in 2017 than going with Speight and O'Korn. He does deserve some blame for that.
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Yeah. I'm still puzzled by Drevno. The growing narrative is that he was severely unenjoyable for even the coaches to be around, sensitive about his place in the hierarchy ... and also a bad coach insofar as the kids weren't getting it and he kept moving on anyway.
Whether that is close to true or wishful scape goating will be partially answered this season. If it ends up true: what the heck happened? He was great at Stanford, San Fran, and USC. And I don't think the likely answer is that Michigan linemen weren't smart enough to play for him. Either he never changed and Michigan is still in trouble or he did change and the story is secret and probably interesting.
Probably a little of both. But as you said, it's easier to pin it all on him. The simplest answer is easier than the right one. Either way, a change was probably needed, and even if it wasn't, Warriner is an upgrade over just about anyone. So even if it wasn't all him, I still expect Warriner to be better.
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Some programs seem to find QBs who can play as freshmen, though it rarely is ideal.
it's incredibly rare. I can't think of many times a true freshman has come in and lit it up.
It's really only happens on loaded teams where the QB had lots of support. And even then most of the time he's just a care taker or game manager. Jake Fromm was a great example of this. He threw for 176 yards a game and was attempting 19 passes a game- on average.
The only true frosh that I remember just slinging it at Michigan was Chad Henne. He walked in as an 18 year old throwing it 30+ times a game for 230+ a game. He also had Jake Long protecting him at tackle, was handing the ball off to the schools eventual all-time leading rusher Mike Hart at RB, and he was throwing to Braylon Edwards, Jason Avant, and Steve Breaston though. Jake Long was on path to an NFL HOF career until injuries destroyed his pro career. Braylon Edwards was on a similar path until he destroyed his own career by being a lazy, malcontent drunk jackass.
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Freshmen "who can play" is not the same as "freshmen who light it up".
Matt Stafford played fairly well as a true freshman. Aaron Murray played well as a RS frosh. Eric Zeier did well. Jacob Eason did well. All of them had ups and downs of course, but I'm only talking about one program.
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I'd partially agree with that. Rudock was excellent in 2015. 2016 Speight was OK for 9 games but then terrible against Iowa- even before getting injured- and Speight pretty much single-handedly lost them the Ohio State game. Speight threw a pick 6 and what was essentially another pick 6 that Ohio State returned all the way to the red-zone and then after a penalty on Michigan during the return Ohio State wound up with a 1st and goal from the 4 yard line. Basically two pick 6's. There was zero improvement in Speight from 2016 to 2017. If anything he got worse. He was the sole reason Florida was in the game during the opener in 2017 as he threw back to back pick 6's.
Honestly think it says more about Speight than Harbaugh- but Harbaugh is the one who made him the starting QB and then decided to let O'Korn come transfer in. Harbaugh would've been better off starting Brandon Peters as a true frosh in 2016 and then having McCaffrey back up as a true frosh in 2017 than going with Speight and O'Korn. He does deserve some blame for that.
Did you watch all or nothing on Amazon Prime? Speight is exactly what I thought he was. Guys was not a leader and not an Alpha. I honestly cannot believe that's the guy the coaching staff went with.
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Did you watch all or nothing on Amazon Prime? Speight is exactly what I thought he was. Guys was not a leader and not an Alpha. I honestly cannot believe that's the guy the coaching staff went with.
didn't watch the whole thing, but what I did watch I was not impressed with Speight. Or O'Korn. Seemed like coach Pep Hamilton wasn't impressed with either of them as well.
I don't particularly care if the QB isn't a leader. I just care if he's any good. Take Aaron Rodgers for example. Not really sure he's a good leader- but he is an amazing QB.
At the end of the day the guys playing with these QB's just care if the guy can play or not. I think most guys on that team knew that Speight and O'Korn couldn't play.
Speight did two things above average- he could evade pressure pretty well for a guy his size and he could also throw a pretty good deep ball. Not great at either of those things- but above average. Unfortunately he kind of sucked ass at everything else. Wasn't very good at reading defenses pre-snap or post-snap. Threw way too many WTF was that balls. Wasn't accurate on the short routes. Wasn't accurate on the intermediate routes. Way too many times you'd see passes behind or above receivers running slants or crosses. He just wasn't that good in all honesty.
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I think leadership and respect are critical for top level college QBs. Yes, you have exceptions where one is so talented it matters little. Maybe Vick is an example of that.
Most college QBs need every edge they can find. Most of the great ones are very good people.
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I don't think Michigan has suffered for bad people at QB since 2007. Though Tate Forcier did behave immaturely and maybe John O'Korn, too. In all, they've been likeable. The outcomes seem to just be about (1) talent and (2) coaching.
Denard had both until Hoke arrived but after Hoke brough Borges, Denard still had so much of #1 to keep Hoke afloat for at least one thoroughly enjoyable season. Devin had the most of #1 that Michigan has seen since Mallett or Henne ... but Hoke was there and Hoke chose OCs so poorly.
Then with Harbaugh there were Rudock and Speight, who only had enough of #2, but plenty of that to significantly overachieve preseason expectations. For Speight, how many of us have heard the anecdote that *zero* quarterbacks Al Borges ever recruited have finished their college career as a starter? Now we're to an era with both #1 and #2. Everyone expects that Peters and McCaffery have both, and they are finally coming of age.
Meanwhile - to fully tip the balances on a culture of violations against himself - Hugh Freeze called escorts with an FOIA-able phone, the karmic revolution was on, and Shea became available. Giving Michigan a guy with #1 and #2 who was even readier. Fortunately for the long term, Peters and McCaffery have more than enough eligibility to wait it out.
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Probably a little of both. But as you said, it's easier to pin it all on him. The simplest answer is easier than the right one.
That's why I'm worried.
Warriner is an upgrade over just about anyone. So even if it wasn't all him, I still expect Warriner to be better.
And that's why I'm not. Though I'm not sure how much it can matter in 7.5 months.
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much talk, speculation and such
bottom line, this is year #4 for Harbaugh
is another transfer the break out QB or are the fans expected to wait until year 5?
yes, I'll agree it takes time to develop a freshman QB. Which QB recruit is going to be that guy? Because the transfer looks to be the guy this season.
Hopefully it doesn't take Frost's staff 4 or 5 years to develop their true frosh recruit, that they nabbed from the Vols after the conference champ game. And I really mean that, I'm not sold that this kid starting as a true frosh is the GUY.
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much talk, speculation and such
bottom line, this is year #4 for Harbaugh
is another transfer the break out QB or are the fans expected to wait until year 5?
yes, I'll agree it takes time to develop a freshman QB. Which QB recruit is going to be that guy? Because the transfer looks to be the guy this season.
Hopefully it doesn't take Frost's staff 4 or 5 years to develop their true frosh recruit, that they nabbed from the Vols after the conference champ game. And I really mean that, I'm not sold that this kid starting as a true frosh is the GUY.
It should rarely take more than two full years to develop a true frosh into a guy you can win with, if necessary. So for a new coach, it's a great luxury to get a good one in your first class (technically your zeroth class, since its mostly built by your predecessor). I think Scott has that fortune.
For Harbaugh, there was no such luxury, but Michigan fans have a lot of confidence in his first two recruits (from the 2016 and 2017 classes) - Peters and McCaffery. The following doesn't reflect negatively on either: Shea is just readier, is all. That Patterson and Peters are from the same recruiting class but Peters was originally more of a project, there's nothing to read between the lines or reason to worry. If Shea were to go down, we'd feel better about either of his next two replacements than we have since ... Denard/Devin? Denard/Tate? Henne/Guttierez?
And after this year, Peters and McCaffery will still have two and three years remaining. It's a healthier QB room than most in the Big Ten.
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I understand this. I also understand that fans need to be patient.
Mike Riley got 3 seasons. Many coaches don't get 4 or 5.
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The Hoke and RR eras knocked the Michigan out of Michigan fans.
It could take Harbaugh a decade to hit 11 wins and so long as he bobs about 9.5 per season, he's not going anywhere. There's no other HC worth the risk of firing him to chase and see. And every indication is Harbaugh will pick to be in Ann Arbor until he retires.
The original "most demanding fanbase in America" only has patience these days. If it weren't CFB, it'd be zen.
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much talk, speculation and such
bottom line, this is year #4 for Harbaugh
is another transfer the break out QB or are the fans expected to wait until year 5?
yes, I'll agree it takes time to develop a freshman QB. Which QB recruit is going to be that guy? Because the transfer looks to be the guy this season.
Hopefully it doesn't take Frost's staff 4 or 5 years to develop their true frosh recruit, that they nabbed from the Vols after the conference champ game. And I really mean that, I'm not sold that this kid starting as a true frosh is the GUY.
Shea Patterson was a 5*, the #1 ranked QB overall and #4 player overall in the 247Composite rankings in the class of 2016.
Brandon Peters was a 4*, the #6 ranked Pro-Style QB and the #61 player overall in the 247Composite rankings in the class of 2016.
Dylan McCaffrey was a 4*, the #5 ranked Pro-Style QB and the #123 player overall in the 247Composite class of 2017 rankings.
Joe Milton was a 4*, the #9 ranked Pro-Style QB and the #204 player overall in the 247Composite class of 2018 rankings.
If he can't find a real life QB out of that collection of talent- he should just quit.
Patterson was the best, most accomplished HS player of the 4. Also the shortest, but also the most technically advanced, most polished, and ready to play coming out of high school. Hence the high ranking he got coming out.
Peters probably had the best mix of talents coming out of those 4 but not the best at any one thing. I'm still a big Peters fan despite that poor bowl game showing and Patterson transferring in and winning the QB job.
McCaffrey probably the best all-around athlete of the four- had the height but he came in weighing like 190 at 6'5. If he can put on the weight and keep it on- he's got pretty much every thing else.
Joe Milton is a flat out project- his ranking is entirely based on potential. Honestly he probably should've been rated a 3*- but he has the best size and by far the strongest arm of that group. He probably had the strongest arm out of any QB recruit in the 2018 class. He showed up to Ann Arbor 6'5, 234 pounds. He runs a legit 4.6 at that size and oh yeah- he can also throw a football 90 yards in the air and right through a brick wall. He's huge, he can run, and he's got a massive arm. Didn't have the greatest HS completion stats though. Might be shades of Shane Morris here. He's very boom or bust. He'll either be the #1 pick in the draft or ride the bench and/or transfer.
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Peters didn't look good in the bowl, but that was primarily based on externalities - the OL mostly, RB blitz pick ups, too. Dropped passes. Awfulness all around. He gets some blame, I'm sure. But I didn't know specifically what.
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I expect Michigan's defense to be dominate and the offense to be a work in progress. The OL will be better but they'll have a long way to go to be considered good. Patterson is very talented but its the first game of the season and his first at Michigan. Notre Dame's defense is solid so my thinking is Michigan's offense will struggle but score. I expect the Irish offense to struggle more.
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I expect Michigan's defense to be dominate and the offense to be a work in progress. The OL will be better but they'll have a long way to go to be considered good. Patterson is very talented but its the first game of the season and his first at Michigan. Notre Dame's defense is solid so my thinking is Michigan's offense will struggle but score. I expect the Irish offense to struggle more.
That interior OL should be pretty solid. Bredeson, Ruiz, and Big Mike Onwenu. Those are some big fellas. Stephen Spannellis has had a great spring and fall, really pushed Ruiz and Onwenu and will be the back up at both spots.
No question though the tackles are a major concern. JBB was terrible at pass blocking but a mauler in the run game. Jon Runyon Jr isn’t the 6’5 he’s listed at- more like a shade under 6’4. Every other tackle on the roster is a RS Freshman or true freshman.
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Notre Dame confirmed that the injury yesterday in practice to starting CB Shaun Crawford was a torn ACL
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Notre Dame confirmed that the injury yesterday in practice to starting CB Shaun Crawford was a torn ACL
That poor kid. Some might remember him as a Hoke commit before that whole thing fell to hell. Like with Tarik, this is a recurrence. The emotional pain for a football player, so valuing their body but watching it fail anyway has to be the worst pain of all.
And now to step into tacky lizard brain Anonymous Coward mode: he's their starting nickel. The supposed gap between Crawford and (next NB) seems large. That increments the odds that Grant, Oliver or Gentry opportunistically feast. Assuming things about the back-up, Shea and play calling of corse.
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That interior OL should be pretty solid. Bredeson, Ruiz, and Big Mike Onwenu. Those are some big fellas. Stephen Spannellis has had a great spring and fall, really pushed Ruiz and Onwenu and will be the back up at both spots.
No question though the tackles are a major concern. JBB was terrible at pass blocking but a mauler in the run game. Jon Runyon Jr isn’t the 6’5 he’s listed at- more like a shade under 6’4. Every other tackle on the roster is a RS Freshman or true freshman.
Agreed, Cesar Ruiz might have been the nation's best HS Center prospect (admittedly there aren't many pure ones) in 15 years. And even as a TrFr, he was a hit. Plus Bredeson and Onwenu really mauled as run blockers last year. If Warriner can ONLY fix the issue with pass blocking on stunts (or even just reduce those failures in half), then this will compete for the second or third best interior line in the Big Ten. The problem is the tackles. Can they even be sixth best? If they can, then Michigan can be a pretty thorny team.
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And now to step into tacky lizard brain Anonymous Coward mode: he's their starting nickel. The supposed gap between Crawford and (next NB) seems large. That increments the odds that Grant, Oliver or Gentry opportunistically feast. Assuming things about the back-up, Shea and play calling of corse.
could really open things up for Chris Evans in the passing game or Grant Perry or Oliver Martin in the slot to really do damage.
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Agreed, Cesar Ruiz might have been the nation's best HS Center prospect (admittedly there aren't many pure ones) in 15 years. And even as a TrFr, he was a hit. Plus Bredeson and Onwenu really mauled as run blockers last year. If Warriner can ONLY fix the issue with pass blocking on stunts (or even just reduce those failures in half), then this will compete for the second or third best interior line in the Big Ten. The problem is the tackles. Can they even be sixth best? If they can, then Michigan can be a pretty thorny team.
there is zero reason for the interior OL not to be very good. They have a heck of an OL coach in Ed Warriner. LG Ben Bredeson and RG Mike Onwenu are both going to be juniors with playing experience. Bredeson was the #5 rated OT recruit and the #39th ranked player overall in the 247Composite class of 2016 rankings. Onwenu was the #4 rated OG recruit and the #87 player overall in the same class. Onwenu is the biggest, strongest guy on that entire team. Cesar Ruiz was the 6th OL and then wound up starting 5 games last as a true frosh at right guard after Onwenu was injured. Ruiz was the #1 rated OC recruit and the #47 ranked player overall in the 247Composite class of 2017 rankings.
It'd be a big disappointment if Warriner didn't get those guys in the middle playing at a high level. With there raw talent and Warriner's coaching accumen- you definitely expect them to come into their own in the middle.
Tackle is still pretty terrifying. All I have to say is thank god they don't have to face Bosa Jr until the last game of the season. Plenty of time to figure it out between now and then.
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Yeah, Runyan and JBB aren't high level starting material. But ... Warriner? We'll see.
Losing Newsome and Devery Hamilton was brutal for Michigan.
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Yeah, Runyan and JBB aren't high level starting material. But ... Warriner? We'll see.
Losing Newsome and Devery Hamilton was brutal for Michigan.
Yeah. Don't remind me.
IF Newsome doesn't get injured and Hamilton doesn't flip to Stanford at the last minute this is a championship level OL unit. F'ing sucks.
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Even then, though, I'm not sure Drevno was the answer.
Devil's advocate of the devil's advocate: if Hamilton and Newsome are on the roster and the Michigan OL rides the positive buzz ... where's Isaiah Wilson go?
CFB snowballs. Still. I'm v. glad about Warriner and the interior three. And Hudson and Mayfield will have their day. Perhaps next year - almost certainly for Hudson. Mayfield will have to hold of Stueber and others first.
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I am typically loathe to think that betting spreads are worth our discussion, but ... this one has moved 3.5 points in the last 24 hours, which is highly unusual (even *with* jokes about dumb Michigan gamblers).
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(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nays.org%2Fdefault%2Fcache%2Ffile%2F7E0A60FD-5056-A818-3C7A87DE5B422A00.jpg&hash=ec430ff4b483a83cad7f3144092de525)
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Michigan is still in this
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Hotter version of the chick on "Always Sunny...."
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It looks certain to be low scoring, ergo ...
ND 27 UM 24
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michigan's defense?
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michigan's defense?
Turning around this game to give the offense a chance (3 points and 64 yards allowed in the 2nd half) was a first step in the right direction.
They were essentially their normal selves for most of the game. It's just that it took two EXCRUTIATING drives before they found themselves -- and those two ND drives were decisive in this game. Football doesn't work this way, but without those drives, the game is exactly what we all expected (talking about scoring totals/range in a race to 15 points; AKA: this is not a comment about "if only...then Michigan'd win").
Even then, I don't know that I can complain much about the long passes for ND on those first two drives. The DBs were excellently positioned (being there and getting your head turned around to make a play is almost the entire goal in coverage) and the ball still found the receiver -- especially that first TD. For the DBs, I don't think that's something to fix, nor do I think those balls would usually end up as a reception if replayed 10 times.
When it's like that, there's no choice but to shrug and say "crap, sometimes the offense wins."
So I am not worried about the defense. They definitely have things to improve. Michigan had serious issues tracking Wimbush on the ground in the first half. He's a star on the ground, and the ND line is tits. So there's room for forgiveness that the Michigan front wasn't ready from 15:00 in the 1st. Still, if that is not 100% fixed it will bode very unwell for OSU.
Mixed into that, Michigan will miss Mo Hurst and conveniently convinced ourselves the transition would be no big deal. Even then, the line is still very good. The whole D could live up to expectations.
But how hard will this offense make them work for it?
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The main issues for me:
- holy crap that was not good clock management
- Runyan and JBB are not viable options at tackle versus a topflight DL. OSU has one. UW has one. MSU and PSU also come close. Given how long they've had to "get there," I'm hoping the coaches started them tonight solely because starting younger kids in this environment on the road was a non-starter (no pun), and that two of James Hudson and Stueber or Mayfield (or other) take their place versus WMU.
The OT roster clearly isn't perfect, but there are younger guys with higher ceilings. With ND behind us, it's probably time to kick those tires.
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It sounds like McCaffery actually *is* third on the depth chart but Peters recently "tweaked" (minor?) his knee. That is consistent with the predicted depth quality and is good for the team.
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SShea is gonna be really good if this OL doesn’t get him killed.
Ruiz had a bad game. Expected much more from the #1 center recruit. He still gets lost in pass pro and let’s his guy go right past him while he’s blocking the wrong guy or air. I’d bench him for Spannellis if he doesn’t turn around in the next couple weeks.
Tackles suck. Start Jalen Mayfield at LT and James Hudson at RT and be done with it.
Harbaugh was pathetic. Just all-around pathetic. Honestly. Play calling, clock management, personnel use. Just disgusting.
The TE’s sucked. McKeon and Gentry stunk it up. The WR’s looked much improved over last year.
Brad Hawkins is an upgrade over Mettelus. If they don’t start him going forward they are stupid. Mettelus sucks.
Team came out flat and Notre Dame just pounced all over them to start the game. ND played with high energy and there was an electricity there that just wasn’t there for Michigan. Harbaugh didn’t have his guys ready to play. At all.
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I watched 3 quarters. ND either has a really good defense or ...
I think the former, but UM was not doing much to counter the blitzing.
Patterson throws a nice ball when unrushed, but he may not be the real answer back there. Maybe the scheme is wrong.
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Shea Patterson is a major improvement over last year. Notre Dame’s defense is very good. Too good for Michigan’s OL. Michigan’s OTs were beat often and as a result Patterson was running for his life frequently. Mobile QB have always given Michigan fits and nothing has changed. Michigan’s defense did not play good enough to win in the first half. But the bottom line is Michigan’s OL needs to get much better to contend. Yes, its possible.
Go Blue!
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Shea Patterson is a major improvement over last year. Notre Dame’s defense is very good. Too good for Michigan’s OL. Michigan’s OTs were beat often and as a result Patterson was running for his life frequently. Mobile QB have always given Michigan fits and nothing has changed. Michigan’s defense did not play good enough to win in the first half. But the bottom line is Michigan’s OL needs to get much better to contend. Yes, its possible.
Go Blue!
This.
Opening game against a top tier opponent, at night? Tough ask.
I feel like UM ‘s D was excellent - just started slow and gave up a fluky TD early on that arm punt.
The offense was very crisp most of the night. Michigan, in my view has TWO quality QBs now. They are going to score a lot of points on most teams they play.
The o-line had a few breakdowns, but what do you expect for game 1? There are good players there and you now have an excellent coach in Warriner.
As Harbaugh gets more comfortable with Shea running from more spread formations, and I believe he will, the offense will get more dangerous.
I think not winning has some benefits in these early games. I still think UM is going to be the team to beat in the east.
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I’m not convinced Patterson is the guy. It’s evident the offensive staff is borderline clueless, which was evident by the play calling and time management, but I thought there was a noticeable difference when McCaffery came in the game.
I don’t trust anything this offensive staff does at this point. Last year they put Speight and O’korn out there and Peters was light years better, so how can we trust their talent evaluation at all? They looked like they never ran a two-minute drill as well.
Defense came out really flat. The missed INT was a huge momentum swing on the opening drive. The backfield lack toughness. They had multiple balls that were in the air, ready for a pick that the ND players just wanted it more.
It feels like Harbaughs teams have been soft. Looked like more of the same last night.
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what? I was unaware that Brian Kelly was some kind of offensive genius. If he was ever thought of such, think he's lost that.
Brandon Wimbush is a 49% passer. Not sure that's going to cut it against a Don Brown Michigan defense that should be a big pain in the ass for offenses all year long.
He seemed to have cracked it okay. Particularly early on, when the drives are scripted.
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This.
Opening game against a top tier opponent, at night? Tough ask.
I feel like UM ‘s D was excellent - just started slow and gave up a fluky TD early on that arm punt.
The offense was very crisp most of the night. Michigan, in my view has TWO quality QBs now. They are going to score a lot of points on most teams they play.
The o-line had a few breakdowns, but what do you expect for game 1? There are good players there and you now have an excellent coach in Warriner.
As Harbaugh gets more comfortable with Shea running from more spread formations, and I believe he will, the offense will get more dangerous.
I think not winning has some benefits in these early games. I still think UM is going to be the team to beat in the east.
Did we watch the same game? Coaching was incompetent and borderline inept. Don’t get me wrong, Notre Dame has talent, but the play calling was bizarre at times.
Where was Chris Evans until the last 4 minutes? I felt like I time warped back to the 90’s Browns and was watching Metcalf up the middle over and over.
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Did we watch the same game? Coaching was incompetent and borderline inept. Don’t get me wrong, Notre Dame has talent, but the play calling was bizarre at times.
Where was Chris Evans until the last 4 minutes? I felt like I time warped back to the 90’s Browns and was watching Metcalf up the middle over and over.
I know. And yet they still had a chance at the end.
I know from watching Warriner that his offensive line took three- sometimes four weeks to gel.
I also think he will influence Harbaugh, as will Patterson, to run more spread wit 4-5 receiver sets. That’s where Patterson can excel.
Who on the schedule scares you until mid October?
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I'd be a tad concerned about Western, Northwestern and maybe Maryland before the mid October triple Hell stretch. Won't lose all three of course, but could easily go 2-1 in those games.
Not to mention we still don't know what we have in Nebraska under Scott Frost.
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Who on the schedule scares you until mid October?
I suppose Northwestern is the only concern before the schedule toughens mid season. So there's time. And this wasn't a conference game. But.
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Who on the schedule scares you until mid October?
But that’s exactly the point. Michigan will go out and beat the mediocre or poor teams on their schedule in the coming weeks and think everything is fine with their vanilla, 1985 offense. The second they face a talented squad with quality coaching, they’ll lose.
Talent is the only thing that kept them from being embarrassed last night. That coaching effort at a mid level school and this staff goes 3-7 at most places.
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Heard a crazy, but true stat this morning:
Harbaugh is 8-8 his last 16 games at UM.
Butch Jones went 8-8 his last 16 games at Tennessee before being fired.
Ergo, Harbaugh is a 'champion of life'.
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Heard a crazy, but true stat this morning:
Harbaugh is 8-8 his last 16 games at UM.
Butch Jones went 8-8 his last 16 games at Tennessee before being fired.
Ergo, Harbaugh is a 'champion of life'.
I heard that and that he’s lost his last 4 in a row. Never thought we’d be talking about moving on from Harbaugh, but that’s a very realistic consideration.
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I don't get why so many people seem like we have to determine if Harbaugh is Saban/Meyer or a total fraud? It's like the chance, that he's just a fine coach, nothing more, nothing less, which seems most likely to me, isnt even open for consideration. Like maybe he's Brian Kelly or Mike Gundy. Good enough to deserve his job, but not some sort of program savior.
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I think it's from his time at Stanford - from total irrelevance to being very good. Add to that a Super Bowl appearance, it makes sense.
But that doesn't help him win the next game. With the European trips and his being as much of the focus as the team, maybe he's worried too much about the motivating and not enough about the Xs and Os? Idk.
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I don't get why so many people seem like we have to determine if Harbaugh is Saban/Meyer or a total fraud? It's like the chance, that he's just a fine coach, nothing more, nothing less, which seems most likely to me, isnt even open for consideration. Like maybe he's Brian Kelly or Mike Gundy. Good enough to deserve his job, but not some sort of program savior.
With that contract come expectations.What was the stat lost to the last 14/15 ranked opponents.If that was hovering around .500 that'd be acceptable.Take the money,take the grief.Doesn't help that Sparty down the street has been piecing together some nice seasons and wins over him
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I don't get why so many people seem like we have to determine if Harbaugh is Saban/Meyer or a total fraud? It's like the chance, that he's just a fine coach, nothing more, nothing less, which seems most likely to me, isnt even open for consideration. Like maybe he's Brian Kelly or Mike Gundy. Good enough to deserve his job, but not some sort of program savior.
When you are paying a guy like he's Saban or Meyer, it's not unreasonable to expect more than a 1-6 record in rivalry games, 1-2 in Bowl games and a bunch of 3rd/4th place B1G East finishes.
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But that doesn't help him win the next game. With the European trips and his being as much of the focus as the team, maybe he's worried too much about the motivating and not enough about the Xs and Os? Idk.
My brother said the same thing last night and i completely agree. Right now it looks like the game is passing him by.
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his offensive scheme is suited for the pros but his personality is suited for college.
College game is all about spreading it out and offense and creativity and fast pace. He’s got a talented QB perfect for that style and he’s had 9 months to tweak things and he proved last night he has no clue what he’s doing when it comes to offense.
If he would have went out and got the next Lincoln Riley or Joe Moorehead or Tom Herman to run his offense and call the plays they probably would’ve beaten Notre Dame last night.
His offensive philosophy is Stone Age and his tackles once again suck- just like they did last year.
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Also- want to know why Urbz keeps wiping the floor with Harbaugh?
Urban will go out of his comfort zone and hire top offensive co-ordinators that he doesn’t know but are top guys in the sport. Ryan Day. Kevin Wilson. Tom Herman. Urban doesn’t mess around. He just hires really good offensive coaches and if they don’t get the job done he makes changes. He’ll fire your ass and replace you. Except if you’re a WR coach of course.
Harbaugh kept Pep around and he keeps having his thumbprint on the offense. So when it continues to not work and the offense continues to suck- he’s got no one to blame but himself.
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its a little bit old but I didn’t see this til recently. Cris Carter talking about Michigan and Harbaugh’s offense. Hard to disagree with anything he says in it.
https://youtu.be/qDugWFGLuMc (https://youtu.be/qDugWFGLuMc)
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ya gotta have a running game
especially in the Big Ten
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ya gotta have a running game
especially in the Big Ten
Running game hasn’t been his offenses problem.
It’s been offensive lines that can’t identify stunts or blitzes. Offensive tackles that can’t pass block to save their lives. RBs who are terrible in pass pro. Lack of development at QB and WR.
Predictable and stupid play calling. Lack of imagination or creativity on offense.
And really awful personnel use. Sending 5’9 RB Karan Higdon out wide and throwing him the ball 20 yards down the field on a critical 3rd down is a prime example of this. Higdon is a runner first and foremost. That’s honestly all he’s competent at as he is terrible in pass pro and he isn’t a natural route runner or pass catcher. You know who is? Chris Evans- their other RB who could honestly probably play slot WR at a decent level in college. If you’re gonna call that play to a RB- call it for Evans maybe?
Reminded me of last year when they kept throwing goal-line fades to 5’11, 180 pound slot receiver Eddie McDoom instead of to their 6’7 TE or their 6’2 frosh WR with a 45” vertical.
It’s really honestly just bad coaching all the way around on offense.
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Running game hasn’t been his offenses problem.
It’s been offensive lines that can’t identify stunts or blitzes. Offensive tackles that can’t pass block to save their lives. RBs who are terrible in pass pro. Lack of development at QB and WR.
Predictable and stupid play calling. Lack of imagination or creativity on offense.
And really awful personnel use. Sending 5’9 RB Karan Higdon out wide and throwing him the ball 20 yards down the field on a critical 3rd down is a prime example of this. Higdon is a runner first and foremost. That’s honestly all he’s competent at as he is terrible in pass pro and he isn’t a natural route runner or pass catcher. You know who is? Chris Evans- their other RB who could honestly probably play slot WR at a decent level in college. If you’re gonna call that play to a RB- call it for Evans maybe?
Reminded me of last year when they kept throwing goal-line fades to 5’11, 180 pound slot receiver Eddie McDoom instead of to their 6’7 TE or their 6’2 frosh WR with a 45” vertical.
It’s really honestly just bad coaching all the way around on offense.
Yep. Nailed it
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Running game hasn’t been his offenses problem.
It’s really honestly just bad coaching all the way around on offense.
you are probably correct, but 58 yards rushing on 33 carries is going to hurt the passing game, pass blocking and play calling
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you are probably correct, but 58 yards rushing on 33 carries is going to hurt the passing game, pass blocking and play calling
When you run the same play every time on 1st and 2nd down, it’s not the passing game.
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When you are paying a guy like he's Saban or Meyer, it's not unreasonable to expect more than a 1-6 record in rivalry games, 1-2 in Bowl games and a bunch of 3rd/4th place B1G East finishes.
Not sure where to start with Harbaugh, but here’s as good a place as any - I don’t see Harbaugh being fired for a number of reasons. He’ll probably go 8-5 again and that won’t be enough to pay him his $30 Million buyout or bother looking for a new guy after the tower of fanfare that ushered in Harbaugh to begin with. A Harbaugh exit will have to be something that’s managed over the course of several seasons by denying extensions and salary while the time on his enormous contract is whittled down. There’s just no way around being stuck with Harbaugh at this point.
And meanwhile Michigan fans can hold out the hope that their guy will take the many opportunities he has left to beat Michigan St, Penn St, Wisconsin, and of course the Buckeyes.
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money is not an issue at Michigan
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Hmmm, I can’t recall if I talked about this a few years back, but at the time I’d remembered how his San Francisco offenses started to feel stale. Granted feeling stale is often just a reaction to results, but interesting to see that we’re here now.
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When you run the same play every time on 1st and 2nd down, it’s not the passing game.
What play is that?
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What play is that?
In Cleveland, we call it Metcalf up the middle.
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money is not an issue at Michigan
Even if $30 million isn’t an issue what willing name is out there worth spending another $30 million to set up? And it’s not just the money - is Michigan at this point another Tennessee? Stuck in multiple decades of hiring a new staff every 3 to 4 years? Might be better to stick with Harbaugh if the current staff on offense can be replaced.
And also, sports radio today is making a living off of bringing up how Harbaugh is 9-9 in his last 18 games and how Harbaugh 28-12 record through forty games is only one win better than Hoke’s 27-13 record. Hole kept on losing but with what Harbaugh has left this year there’s still enough chance at winning to pull away from having a comparable record with Hoke.
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In Cleveland, we call it Metcalf up the middle.
After some research, this doesn’t exactly describe what happened (Also, run up the middle is not a play. It’s a binary type of play and a vague direction that accounts for 80 percent or so of runs)
But what this does say is this, when an offense is bad, it usually feels bad in the same ways, which is interesting in its own right, though not much consolation.
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A plot, each first down separated (Bar means a new drive)
Run
Run
Run (Convert)
Pass
Run
Run
______
Run
Pass (Convert)
Pass
Pass
Pass (Convert)
Pass
Pass (Convert)
Run
Pass
Pass
______
Run
Run (Convert)
Pass
Run
Pass (Convert)
Pass
Run (Convert)
Run
Pass
Pass
_____
Pass (Convert)
Pass (Convert)
Pass
Pass
Pass
_______
Run (A toss sweep)
Run
Pass
________
Run
Pass
Run
________
Run
Pass (Convert)
Pass
Pass
________
Run
Run (Convert)
Run
Pass
Pass (Convert)
Run
Run
Pass (Convert)
Run
Pass (Convert)
Pass
Pass
Run (Probably not called?)
_________
At this point Michigna is down 14 with 5 minutes left and play-calling isn't the most useful indicator on this front.
So all told, there was run/run/pass twice in the game. Once started with a toss sweep for minus-4 and then ND stuffing a 2nd and 14 run. The other was under center power (not a popular one when it only gets 3)/A called pass where the QB scrambles/An out to the sticks. All told, the first-down run rate was 54 percent.
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After some research, this doesn’t exactly describe what happened (Also, run up the middle is not a play. It’s a binary type of play and a vague direction that accounts for 80 percent or so of runs)
But what this does say is this, when an offense is bad, it usually feels bad in the same ways, which is interesting in its own right, though not much consolation.
You're over analyzing it,Belichick(at the time) like Harbaugh had no imagination it wasn't complete lack of talent.Just not using what you have effectively.Eric Metcalf was explosive given some room.Swing passes or quick slants out of the backfield,punt & kick off returns he was electric.He was maybe 170lbs dripping wet so Belichick to make some kind of odd point kept sending him up the middle where he was easily knocked down.Just wish he would pull the same crap in N.E. but Brady and him find each other and he finds some common sense and the rest is history.That's not the same guy who coached in Cleveland
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Apparently Braylon Edwards doesn't watch the Bus Tour, and didn't know you can't say anything negative about Big Ten teams on BTN.
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What a whack,you'd think with his checkered,pissy past he might find some grace or compassion.Hey Bra-Bra these kids aren't getting paid,like you were when you were a league leader in dropped passes a couple of times
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This is also why I think (names aside) my ideal coaching combo is a defensive minded head coach with an elite OC with autonomy, or in the NFL, an elite QB. That's why it works in NE, or with Dungy-Manning. Tomlin-Roethlisberger. The best DCs bring a mentality to the roster, while the best offensive minds are best used as tacticians. As long as it is Harbaugh's offense, nothing will change. As has been said, he's a motivator, not a tactician, but that doesn't stop him from being too involved in the offense. It has worked with Meyer because he's an elite recruiter, and he's been willing to trust his offense to his OC. Unless harbaugh gets there, I don't think it works. I just don't like offensively minded head coaches, unless they can totally step back (which is rare for head coaches from either side of the ball) like Meyer has done.
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You're over analyzing it,Belichick(at the time) like Harbaugh had no imagination it wasn't complete lack of talent.Just not using what you have effectively.Eric Metcalf was explosive given some room.Swing passes or quick slants out of the backfield,punt & kick off returns he was electric.He was maybe 170lbs dripping wet so Belichick to make some kind of odd point kept sending him up the middle where he was easily knocked down.Just wish he would pull the same crap in N.E. but Brady and him find each other and he finds some common sense and the rest is history.That's not the same guy who coached in Cleveland
I should clarify, I meant to say that didn't happen in the Michigan game. There was little run-run-pass, and there were more than a few perimeter runs
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dayam.
(https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--tv7he7VV--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/o8knocbcl9jvxt14cslp.png)
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So all told, there was run/run/pass twice in the game. Once started with a toss sweep for minus-4 and then ND stuffing a 2nd and 14 run. The other was under center power (not a popular one when it only gets 3)/A called pass where the QB scrambles/An out to the sticks. All told, the first-down run rate was 54 percent.
Why are you trying to bring facts into this? We're trying to find a scapegoat! :57:
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Maybe Harbaugh needs David Shaw. Looking back, that was one helluva staff he had out there on the farm.
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This is also why I think (names aside) my ideal coaching combo is a defensive minded head coach with an elite OC with autonomy, or in the NFL, an elite QB. That's why it works in NE, or with Dungy-Manning. Tomlin-Roethlisberger. The best DCs bring a mentality to the roster, while the best offensive minds are best used as tacticians. As long as it is Harbaugh's offense, nothing will change. As has been said, he's a motivator, not a tactician, but that doesn't stop him from being too involved in the offense. It has worked with Meyer because he's an elite recruiter, and he's been willing to trust his offense to his OC. Unless harbaugh gets there, I don't think it works. I just don't like offensively minded head coaches, unless they can totally step back (which is rare for head coaches from either side of the ball) like Meyer has done.
I ... I am not sure either of these things is true.
Tactically, I think Jim has, at times, a decent to good level of creativity. He was great with the 49ers. Saturday was probably diverse enough tactically. But he can't seem to get his running backs, quarterbacks or offensive linemen to be good. And that kills everything.
As for Urban, don't we complain every year when the lose that the "his offense" part of the offense cost them? I mean, I know he says he steps back, but the offenses always seem to look like Urban Meyer offenses (this year might be different)
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Why are you trying to bring facts into this? We're trying to find a scapegoat! :57:
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/a095c41cfcdf9849ebbfb50c38fbd35a/tenor.gif?itemid=5807891)
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I should clarify, I meant to say that didn't happen in the Michigan game. There was little run-run-pass, and there were more than a few perimeter runs
Although I greatly appreciate the research you put into it, my comment was more along the lines of what Nubbz was saying. It wasn’t that Michigan was actually going run run pass, it was a description of the vanilla playcalling and lack of creativity.
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Classic.
Now he's gonna try to bluff his way out of it.
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I think we are coming to too many conclusions after one game, just like we do every year. Don’t under estimate Warriner, and understand you have what looks like two good QBs now. It will be better than you think. My 2 cents....
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Probably HB, but Harbaugh teams have seemed soft and very vanilla on offense. 9-9 in 18 games is a tough pill to swallow.
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I ... I am not sure either of these things is true.
Tactically, I think Jim has, at times, a decent to good level of creativity. He was great with the 49ers. Saturday was probably diverse enough tactically. But he can't seem to get his running backs, quarterbacks or offensive linemen to be good. And that kills everything.
As for Urban, don't we complain every year when the lose that the "his offense" part of the offense cost them? I mean, I know he says he steps back, but the offenses always seem to look like Urban Meyer offenses (this year might be different)
If people say that about Meyer, I haven't heard it, and I disagree with it. Are his finger prints on it? Sure, it's his team. But it has varied enough QB to QB and OC to OC for me to buy any argument that he has too much control. Has OSU had bad offensive games? Sure . But it speaks to the level his teams function at that we overreact when he has a bad one. Any coach but Meyer and Saban is allowed a bad game without some sort of macro criticism.
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Classic.
Now he's gonna try to bluff his way out of it.
My neighbors house is up for sale if you want to move into the neighborhood and peak in my windows.
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Although I greatly appreciate the research you put into it, my comment was more along the lines of what Nubbz was saying. It wasn’t that Michigan was actually going run run pass, it was a description of the vanilla playcalling and lack of creativity.
Ahhh, good. We're now saying, that while we're describing things a certain way, we're kind of looking for the right words to describe a feeling of sorts.
So let me posit this. The Michigan play-calling is not vanilla, nor does it lack creativity. It's just that the offense is bad/underwhelming. That might be player quality, not necessarily talent but development. Maybe, MAYBE it's about scheme fit and such. But creativity, probably not.
Because they're not vanilla. If anything, they're chunky monkey topped with funfetti, pickles and egg rolls. Michigan ran no fewer than 6 or 7 distinct offensive looks. They did all sorts of things with a hot and cold QB, not great RBs and a lint that gets blown through.
We have this belief that complexity equates to success. And it often doesn't (this is a great lesson of high school football and a lot carries over). Just because you're good doesn't mean you're outsmarting someone. Out executing, having better technique, winning battles, this is far, far more important than the calls.
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If people say that about Meyer, I haven't heard it, and I disagree with it. Are his finger prints on it? Sure, it's his team. But it has varied enough QB to QB and OC to OC for me to buy any argument that he has too much control. Has OSU had bad offensive games? Sure . But it speaks to the level his teams function at that we overreact when he has a bad one. Any coach but Meyer and Saban is allowed a bad game without some sort of macro criticism.
The "QB got too many carries and the RB didn't get enough game"? I feel like those happen each year.
I guess, I've never felt there was THAT much difference in terms of approach from Mullen to Addazio or Herman to Warinner to Wilson. Granted, some are better than others, but it never felt like they did THAT much differently.
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Ahhh, good. We're now saying, that while we're describing things a certain way, we're kind of looking for the right words to describe a feeling of sorts.
So let me posit this. The Michigan play-calling is not vanilla, nor does it lack creativity. It's just that the offense is bad/underwhelming. That might be player quality, not necessarily talent but development. Maybe, MAYBE it's about scheme fit and such. But creativity, probably not.
Because they're not vanilla. If anything, they're chunky monkey topped with funfetti, pickles and egg rolls. Michigan ran no fewer than 6 or 7 distinct offensive looks. They did all sorts of things with a hot and cold QB, not great RBs and a lint that gets blown through.
We have this belief that complexity equates to success. And it often doesn't (this is a great lesson of high school football and a lot carries over). Just because you're good doesn't mean you're outsmarting someone. Out executing, having better technique, winning battles, this is far, far more important than the calls.
Not sure I agree. I wouldn’t say scheme is inferior to execution, but it sounds like that is your stance. I think you need a highly effective scheme that is executed well. If you have a poor scheme, with little imagination, execution won’t get you over the top. Imagination and creativity become important because of predictability.
Urban Meyer was the head coach when I went to BG. Although his teams executed well, he didn’t take an irrelevant MAC school into the national spotlight because they started tackling and blocking well. His offensive schemes were so far advanced for their time that his inferior talent could hang with almost anyone solely based on superior coaching.
Where I think we see eye to eye is development of talent. I’m not pinning the lack of success solely on play calling. As you alluded, it seems many players aren’t reaching their potential. So one of two things is happening. 1) player development blows or 2) players are getting extra stars because they’re going to a helmet school that generates money. That part, I have zero confidence in an opinion.
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Yeah, like I said when you are Meyer or Saban, your bad games are so rare, people are prone to make sweeping assumptions when they happen. He's had bad games, but I've never picked up on any bad trends.
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Yeah, like I said when you are Meyer or Saban, your bad games are so rare, people are prone to make sweeping assumptions when they happen. He's had bad games, but I've never picked up on any bad trends.
Agree to disagree there. I've always felt he ran the Urban offense, granted, he's been good at augmenting it. I think the central spirit is him, but he's adding from OCs and they're adding from him.
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Not sure I agree. I wouldn’t say scheme is inferior to execution, but it sounds like that is your stance. I think you need a highly effective scheme that is executed well. If you have a poor scheme, with little imagination, execution won’t get you over the top. Imagination and creativity become important because of predictability.
What. Does. This. Mean?
Michigan ran
I-from
Singleback
Singleback jet
Shingleback with a tight bunch
Standard shotgun
Shotgun empty
They ran zone reads, RPOs, had some rollout stuff. They ran power, zone, pin-and-pull toss sweep. They had screens and deeper stuff. They ran the jet out of the jet look for good yardage, and then instead of going to inside zone off that, immediately went for the double play-action. What about it was unimaginative or predictable? Other than if just didn't work (it interestingly was kind of efficent at moving the chains at times, but there were so few big plays, and eventually Michigan always seem to shoot itself in the foot with a shotgun)
You mentioned Urban, and what's interesting is his stuff was in some ways advanced in imaginative, but also oddly simple. He fused spread and option before a lot of college teams. But he's always run a stripped down passing offense. His scheme has I think five base runs and a lot of stuff off it. Part of his genius was that he got his guys REALLY good at doing the things they did. If you do less stuff better, you win a lot of games.
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My neighbors house is up for sale if you want to move into the neighborhood and peak in my windows.
No thanks.
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What. Does. This. Mean?
Michigan ran
I-from
Singleback
Singleback jet
Shingleback with a tight bunch
Standard shotgun
Shotgun empty
They ran zone reads, RPOs, had some rollout stuff. They ran power, zone, pin-and-pull toss sweep. They had screens and deeper stuff. They ran the jet out of the jet look for good yardage, and then instead of going to inside zone off that, immediately went for the double play-action. What about it was unimaginative or predictable?
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(https://i2.wp.com/www.globalwealthprotection.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/chief-wiggum-300x225.png?resize=300%2C225&ssl=1)
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Overrated: 150 page playbook
Underrated: Knowing who to block
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What. Does. This. Mean?
Michigan ran
I-from
Singleback
Singleback jet
Shingleback with a tight bunch
Standard shotgun
Shotgun empty
They ran zone reads, RPOs, had some rollout stuff. They ran power, zone, pin-and-pull toss sweep. They had screens and deeper stuff. They ran the jet out of the jet look for good yardage, and then instead of going to inside zone off that, immediately went for the double play-action. What about it was unimaginative or predictable? Other than if just didn't work (it interestingly was kind of efficent at moving the chains at times, but there were so few big plays, and eventually Michigan always seem to shoot itself in the foot with a shotgun)
You mentioned Urban, and what's interesting is his stuff was in some ways advanced in imaginative, but also oddly simple. He fused spread and option before a lot of college teams. But he's always run a stripped down passing offense. His scheme has I think five base runs and a lot of stuff off it. Part of his genius was that he got his guys REALLY good at doing the things they did. If you do less stuff better, you win a lot of games.
A team can line in 6 different formations and still turn around and hand it off tackle left. That doesn’t make it creative, it means a lot of energy spent on the same vanilla offense. I think Michigan has stubbornly kept the offense vanilla in the past, believing they could line up and overpower other teams based on talent and execution. They have been very wrong about that.
That’s what Urban understood incredibly well in his early days. His offense may have simplified as his talent has increased, moving up the helmet ladder. In his early days, his spread offense was incredibly complex and unique to the game. So unique, that Bill Belichick called him up and asked him to review his offense with him in the film room. That was after two Super Bowl wins.
So maybe we can agree that Michigan’s formations are complex, but after the snap the issues begin?
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A team can line in 6 different formations and still turn around and hand it off tackle left. That doesn’t make it creative, it means a lot of energy spent on the same vanilla offense. I think Michigan has stubbornly kept the offense vanilla in the past, believing they could line up and overpower other teams based on talent and execution. They have been very wrong about that.
That’s what Urban understood incredibly well in his early days. His offense may have simplified as his talent has increased, moving up the helmet ladder. In his early days, his spread offense was incredibly complex and unique to the game. So unique, that Bill Belichick called him up and asked him to review his offense with him in the film room. That was after two Super Bowl wins.
So maybe we can agree that Michigan’s formations are complex, but after the snap the issues begin?
First few series
Zone read (back going right) maybe RPO
RPO screen off zone read
Inside zone (went up the middle)
RPO screen off sweep
Boundary sweep off what looks like an RPO
Looks like a straight inside zone give up middle (QB acts like it's a zone read, WRs run a screen, but unclear if that was a real option)
Jet sweep
All hitches out of shotgun empty
A bootleg comeback route on a nice play-action rollout look from the gun
Double play-action out of the jet look (Patterson misses, through there was some pressure)
A lot of intermediate routes out of shotgun 3-wide
A zero-yard pass with everyone going deep out of shotgun 3-wide
Bootleg comeback route on a nice play-action rollout look from the gun, looks like the receivers are going deeper
Inside zone give up middle, maybe off RPO
All hitches out of shotgun empty
One short route and a lot of deeper ones from shotgun four-wide
Power right
Inside zone left
A play-acrion out of two-back with a nice 3-receiver levels concept (I'm phrasing that wrong) to the right
Inside zone off the jet look
Just a nice set of intermediate routes out of shotgun twins two-tight
Play-action boot and dump off out of singleback
Inside zone with a wide front
G-down run (Off tackle to the left)
Play-action (Might be spider 2 Y banana, in any case, blown up)
Something I can't 100 percent see out of five-wide
Not a ton of off-tackle left.
I write all this to say, vanilla is not what we're seeing. We have this issue where we assume that bad offense is simple offense. But it's not. You have a word up there that matters far more "execution." If you run your stuff well, you'll win more battles. If you win battles one-on-one, you do well. And there aren't a ton of schemes that fix, my left tackle and right guard are turnstiles. You just need to get them to play better, or you'll suck.
You mention the Urban/Belichick thing, and at a part, you're half right. You wrote "his spread offense was incredibly complex and unique to the game." It was unique, but it wasn't THAT complex. It just did some ahead-of-its time stuff with getting slots on linebackers in the passing game and making the QB have to count in the run game. He was an innovator at that point, but it wasn't because it was complex. If anything, it was because it was simple. When you have less, you run it better. When you run it better, it works better.
The best offenses look complex but play more simple. Granted, we're stuck in this patter where we assume complex=good, when it's really not the case. Michigan needs to find some things it does well, and do those a lot.
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I think they call that checkmate. You clearly went back and watched the game at a play by play level, whereas I’m going by memory of reaction to the live game and it’s pretty apparent my memory doesn’t line up with the reality of the play calling.
BAB 1
SM 0
I think your statement about Meyer is fair. I associate innovation with newness and complexity, which in reality may not be correct. I had misconceptions about plays 3 days ago so it’s quite possible that happened for plays run 16 years ago.
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my 2 cents...
In CF, you need innovative offensive minds at OC or the HC. The rules are biased towards the offense and points have to be scored. Good defense today is holding teams in the low 20's. But you have to score points to win.
I also think reducing the decisions is key in CF. the NCAA has reduced the number of practices, coaches and who can be around the kids in the summer. a complex system that requires a lot of reps and timing is too difficult without guys being in the system for years and waiting their turn. Initially, I used to mock Leach's offense. But he was correct in his approach and making things quicker for his kids.
When it comes to Michigan I'm not sure they have an innovative offensive mind or a simple system.
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I'm thinking of putting BaB on the payroll here, to offer detailed write up and analyses for select games.
We'll make him an offer he can't refuse. We'll see what @Drew4UTk (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1) and @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) have to say about that.
:72:
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First few series
Zone read (back going right) maybe RPO
RPO screen off zone read
Inside zone (went up the middle)
RPO screen off sweep
Boundary sweep off what looks like an RPO
Looks like a straight inside zone give up middle (QB acts like it's a zone read, WRs run a screen, but unclear if that was a real option)
Jet sweep
All hitches out of shotgun empty
A bootleg comeback route on a nice play-action rollout look from the gun
Double play-action out of the jet look (Patterson misses, through there was some pressure)
A lot of intermediate routes out of shotgun 3-wide
A zero-yard pass with everyone going deep out of shotgun 3-wide
Bootleg comeback route on a nice play-action rollout look from the gun, looks like the receivers are going deeper
Inside zone give up middle, maybe off RPO
All hitches out of shotgun empty
One short route and a lot of deeper ones from shotgun four-wide
Power right
Inside zone left
A play-acrion out of two-back with a nice 3-receiver levels concept (I'm phrasing that wrong) to the right
Inside zone off the jet look
Just a nice set of intermediate routes out of shotgun twins two-tight
Play-action boot and dump off out of singleback
Inside zone with a wide front
G-down run (Off tackle to the left)
Play-action (Might be spider 2 Y banana, in any case, blown up)
Something I can't 100 percent see out of five-wide
Not a ton of off-tackle left.
I write all this to say, vanilla is not what we're seeing. We have this issue where we assume that bad offense is simple offense. But it's not. You have a word up there that matters far more "execution." If you run your stuff well, you'll win more battles. If you win battles one-on-one, you do well. And there aren't a ton of schemes that fix, my left tackle and right guard are turnstiles. You just need to get them to play better, or you'll suck.
You mention the Urban/Belichick thing, and at a part, you're half right. You wrote "his spread offense was incredibly complex and unique to the game." It was unique, but it wasn't THAT complex. It just did some ahead-of-its time stuff with getting slots on linebackers in the passing game and making the QB have to count in the run game. He was an innovator at that point, but it wasn't because it was complex. If anything, it was because it was simple. When you have less, you run it better. When you run it better, it works better.
The best offenses look complex but play more simple. Granted, we're stuck in this patter where we assume complex=good, when it's really not the case. Michigan needs to find some things it does well, and do those a lot.
Ha. Someone did this when posters were offering up similar critiques of Tressel ball (you, maybe?), and the results were strikingly similar. He was running all kinds of crazy crap, it was just that none of it was getting anywhere.
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Amusing to me how this plays out, especially when not many people here want to admit that ND might be pretty good.
I suspect they are, though certainly not unbeatable.
In college football, a huge part of the game is just having better players than the other team. Michigan has that against most teams it plays, but not always against Notre Dame (or Ohio State). Michigan has a touch schedule this year, but could still finish very strong--and probably will still win a lot of games.
As for that game: ND's receivers beat the Michigan defensive backfield. ND's quarterback/scheme beat the Michigan front 7. Michigan's offense wasn't consistent enough to beat a pretty good ND defense. Then ND nursed a lead, while Michigan fought its way back in.
ND was the better team on that night, in that environment. Which doesn't mean Michigan is terrible, but it probably does mean this isn't going to be the year Harbaugh comes through with a conference championship.
And that's a hard way for fans to start a season. That's what's always been good or bad about this rivarly, depending on which side of the win/loss you were on. And it's also why it's a shame that it isn't still a regularly scheduled event.
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my 2 cents...
In CF, you need innovative offensive minds at OC or the HC. The rules are biased towards the offense and points have to be scored. Good defense today is holding teams in the low 20's. But you have to score points to win.
I also think reducing the decisions is key in CF. the NCAA has reduced the number of practices, coaches and who can be around the kids in the summer. a complex system that requires a lot of reps and timing is too difficult without guys being in the system for years and waiting their turn. Initially, I used to mock Leach's offense. But he was correct in his approach and making things quicker for his kids.
When it comes to Michigan I'm not sure they have an innovative offensive mind or a simple system.
I think its also becoming more difficult to find players coming out of HS who are versed in this approach to offense. Spread concepts dominate at the HS level, and have since the current crop of players were children. You start with a lower base of knowledge and experience, then reduce the opportunities to teach it...you're going to have problems.
The same problem is flowing upward to the NFL, where they are drafting college QBs with minimal knowledge of coverages. All they read during their college career are the apex defender and relevant safety on one side of the field.
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Amusing to me how this plays out, especially when not many people here want to admit that ND might be pretty good.
I suspect they are, though certainly not unbeatable.
In college football, a huge part of the game is just having better players than the other team. Michigan has that against most teams it plays, but not always against Notre Dame (or Ohio State). Michigan has a touch schedule this year, but could still finish very strong--and probably will still win a lot of games.
As for that game: ND's receivers beat the Michigan defensive backfield. ND's quarterback/scheme beat the Michigan front 7. Michigan's offense wasn't consistent enough to beat a pretty good ND defense. Then ND nursed a lead, while Michigan fought its way back in.
ND was the better team on that night, in that environment. Which doesn't mean Michigan is terrible, but it probably does mean this isn't going to be the year Harbaugh comes through with a conference championship.
And that's a hard way for fans to start a season. That's what's always been good or bad about this rivarly, depending on which side of the win/loss you were on. And it's also why it's a shame that it isn't still a regularly scheduled event.
This is a very true post. Part of the problem is "us Michigan guys" believe we should just be better than everyone from a talent aspect. You know, the speech and all that.
Sometimes it takes us a little time to realize that other teams may have superior players on the field. When reviewing reasons for a loss, that is typically very low on the checklist of areas to review.
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This is a very true post. Part of the problem is "us Michigan guys" believe we should just be better than everyone from a talent aspect. You know, the speech and all that.
Sometimes it takes us a little time to realize that other teams may have superior players on the field. When reviewing reasons for a loss, that is typically very low on the checklist of areas to review.
This is a similar thought/concept to something my dad shared with me when I was younger. He said "The other team tries too". Sometimes we forget that.
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This is a very true post. Part of the problem is "us Michigan guys" believe we should just be better than everyone from a talent aspect. You know, the speech and all that.
you know, recruiting rankings and all that
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This is a similar thought/concept to something my dad shared with me when I was younger. He said "The other team tries too". Sometimes we forget that.
Or as John Cooper often put it "their coaches coach, and their players play"
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The 6'3.5" LT Jon Runyan Jr gave up 2 sacks and 8 QB hurries/pressures. Tough position for your QB to be in on the road in a hostile environment when his blind side protector is sucking that much ass. RG Mike Onwenu and C Cesar Ruiz have all the physical talent in the world. Which is why they were ranked so high as recruits. Unfortunately they both seem to struggle identifying who to block. When they know who to block- oh boy do they block. Onwenu absolutely caved in the DT and made a gaping hole for Higdon on the TD run. He is a behemoth- when he gets his hands on someone it's over. His football IQ and technique seem to really be lacking though. That's where Ed Warriner is going to have to earn his money.
By the way- for the lack of rush yards- some of that is on Karran Higdon. He had some gaping holes that he got only 4-5 yards out of that better backs would've gotten 20+ on. He is just an above average starting B1G back. Barely. Michigan should have ELITE backs. They sure as hell used to back in the days of Wheatley and Timmy B. Elite backs turn those 4-5 yard gains into 20 or more. And that makes any OL look better.
I THINK that Ed Warriner will be able to fix the OL in time. OL wasn't going to get fixed game one. Remember OSU's OL game one 2014 on the road at VaTech? Was pretty ugly. By the end of that year Warriner had them playing at a high level though.
As for Jon Runyan Jr- he knew who to block- he was just clearly out-matched. Same goes for RT Juwann Bushell Beatty. Really think they just don't have the physical talent to play. Time to see Jalen Mayfield and James Hudson in my opinion. Might as well let them take their lumps now and build for the future. No reason to keep starting 5th year guys at LT and RT that just can't play at this level.
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Michigan Monday from the OSU fan site TheOzone is up. Pretty good read as usual.
https://theozone.net/2018/09/michigan-monday-worst-times/
Watching Michigan’s conservative offense on Saturday, I kept finding myself wondering what Jeff Brohm could do with Shea Patterson and Donovan Peoples-Jones and Nico Collins and Chris Evans and Karan Higdon.
I have long said that bad offense is a choice, and for as much as people like to talk about Harbaugh’s complex offensive system, maybe it’s only complex to Michigan.
Jim Harbaugh has now been at Michigan for 40 games. His offense has seven games of at least 500 yards of total offense and nine games of under 300 yards. In 2015, the Wolverines had two 500-yard games. In 2016 they increased that number to five. Last year, however, there was nothing.
Each year the number of games with fewer than 300 yards has increased — from two in 2015, to three in 2016, to four last year.
Over Ohio State’s last 40 games, they have 16 games of 500 yards or more and just four games of less than 300 yards. Two of those 300-yard days came in the postseason, including last year’s 24-7 Cotton Bowl win over USC.
The Buckeyes have six 600-yard days over the last 40 games, compared to Michigan’s seven 500-yard outings.
Ohio State fans get mad at Urban Meyer’s stubborness when it comes to his offense, but even through that stubborness his offenses have averaged 480 yards per game since his arrival in 2012 and rewritten OSU’s record books.
The only thing Jim Harbaugh’s offense is rewriting is expectations.
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I think Higdon has elite vision, he just doesn't have that burst. Those holes close a half second faster against good defenses, which is the problem. His football IQ carries him against lesser competition, but as you said, just sometimes a half step slow hitting the hole, that hurts you against a defense like the Irish.
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I can only imagine if an MSU blog dedicated a write up each week to Michigan.
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I think Higdon has elite vision, he just doesn't have that burst. Those holes close a half second faster against good defenses, which is the problem. His football IQ carries him against lesser competition, but as you said, just sometimes a half step slow hitting the hole, that hurts you against a defense like the Irish.
Not really sure it's the vision or the burst that hold him back- I think it's more his balance and tackle breaking. He had a couple 5 yard runs where he had huge holes got brought down with arm tackles. He breaks those arm tackles he had nothing but green ahead of him. Literally nothing. Bigger, stronger, NFL type backs would've shed those arm tackles bounced off them and went for 20 or more yards. The guy can't break arm tackles- and it's sad. He's too small.
His burst is fine in my eyes. It's the top end speed he lacks and like I said the lower body power and balance that all great backs have that he lacks. Look at the great backs to play this game. Their lower legs are like tree trunks and arm tackles never bring them down.
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also- really feel like they need to play Ambry Thomas on offense. This offense is stale and it sucks. Might as well get the ball into a play-makers hands. Probably not a bigger play-maker on that squad than Thomas. I'd play him in the slot with Perry and Oliver.
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Why doesn't #12 start at RB for Michigan? He has a burst.
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Why doesn't #12 start at RB for Michigan? He has a burst.
because he dances too much behind the LOS. He won't just hit the hole like Higdon does. Harbaugh seems to like the north/south run style where the back hits the hole and always gets positive rush yards.
Evans will lose yards tap dancing too much. Even so, it was kinda pathetic that he only had 2 touches all game. The kid is a nightmare for LB's and safeties in pass coverage. Lots of colleges were recruiting him to play slot receiver. He really has tons of ability as a pass catcher and he's a mismatch in the open field.
Unfortunately Harbaugh has zero clue how to use him. Instead of sending him out wide to run a pass route 20 yards down the field on a crucial 3rd down he sends Karran Higdon.
Jim is an idiot savant. Has no idea how to use personnel.
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according to PFF- Michigan's OL allowed 21 QB pressures (sacks, QB hits, QB hurries) against ND. Shea Patterson threw the ball 30 times folks. Dude was running for his life. 15 of those pressures came from the staring tackles. Jon Runyan Jr with 8 and Juwann Bushell Beaty with 7. Runyan by the way gave up 2 of the 3 sacks that ND had.
YUCK. Michigan had bad tackle play last year. These tackles are worse.
This Saturday against Western Michigan would be a PERFECT game to bench those guys and break in the young tackles James Hudson and Jalen Mayfield. What's Jim gonna do? Start the sucky seniors instead.
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I'd really trust Warriner on this provided he decides who starts.They might want to get the others snaps if just to work them in for later in the season.The staff has prolly already figured that out
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I'd really trust Warriner on this provided he decides who starts.They might want to get the others snaps if just to work them in for later in the season.The staff has prolly already figured that out
not sure he decides. unfortunately, I think Jim has his hands all over that offense. he really needs to just let it all go or he's going to wind up not being the coach at Michigan anymore.
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As for that game: ND's receivers beat the Michigan defensive backfield. ND's quarterback/scheme beat the Michigan front 7. Michigan's offense wasn't consistent enough to beat a pretty good ND defense. Then ND nursed a lead, while Michigan fought its way back in.
Not sure I agree with this statement. Brandon Wimbush threw for a whopping 170 yards. It's not like Notre Dame gashed the Michigan defensive backfield for 400 yards passing.
To start the game LaVert Hill got beat twice and was benched for a few plays. They threw him back out there and he settled down and was himself and locking down.
Wimbush got 43 of those 170 yards on one play. A play that in all honesty was a poorly underthrown ball that should've been an interception in the end zone. Michigan safety Brad Hawkins was in position for the interception. Timed his jump poorly and let a 5 foot 9 inch white kid snatch it from him. Great play by that kid, but a really bad one by the rs freshman safety Brad Hawkins.
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Tactically, I think Jim has, at times, a decent to good level of creativity. He was great with the 49ers. Saturday was probably diverse enough tactically. But he can't seem to get his running backs, quarterbacks or offensive linemen to be good. And that kills everything.
He is creative- at times- with his running game. His passing game? It's atrocious.
Article from Inside the 49ers blog in 2015 on Jim's offense right after he left the 49ers. https://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/wont-miss-jim-harbaugh/
Reading that article now- damn is it prophetic.
Jim is a great turnaround artist. He picked Michigan football up out of the gutter- starting to doubt whether or not he's the kind of guy who can get over the hump and build a long lasting program.
He's a hell of a coach. But to me he just seems to have lost it. He's not the same guy he used to be. I think he might be on medication. He just seems to have lost that edge. It's like he's tamed now. He used to be batshit crazy on those sidelines and I think his team fed off that.
I don't think he'll ever get fired from Michigan, but he might be back off to the NFL in a couple years.
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I think its also becoming more difficult to find players coming out of HS who are versed in this approach to offense. Spread concepts dominate at the HS level, and have since the current crop of players were children. You start with a lower base of knowledge and experience, then reduce the opportunities to teach it...you're going to have problems.
The same problem is flowing upward to the NFL, where they are drafting college QBs with minimal knowledge of coverages. All they read during their college career are the apex defender and relevant safety on one side of the field.
this is a great point. which is also a reason why it's probably best for college coaches to run spread offenses. Why make it harder on yourself?
You don't have the time with the kids to teach them complex pro offenses. Better off making it easier on the HS kids coming in to college running stuff they are familiar with.
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just going deep diving on the pass stats for Harbaugh when he was with the 49ers...
2011- 49ers had 3,193 passing yards and 18 touchdowns as a team. 3 QB's threw for more than 5,000 yards alone that year. 10 QB's alone threw for 4,000+ yards and 16 QB's alone threw for more than 18 touchdown passes.
2012, 2013, and 2014- basically the same stuff. The team was never in the top 10 in the NFL in passing yards or passing touchdowns in 4 years. Pretty obvious the passing game isn't his strong suite.
The run game? San Fransisco was top 10 in rushing yards and rushing touchdowns all 4 of the Harbaugh years. And they were top 5 in rushing yards in 3 of Harbs 4 years there.
I think that's why people say his offenses are stone age or simple. He's never had QB's that sling it all over the field- and in today's game- that's all the elite offenses do is throw that thing all over the field.
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so, if yer not going to sling it all over the yard.............
this is very bad:
33 carries 58 yards
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so, if yer not going to sling it all over the yard.............
this is very bad:
33 carries 58 yards
That stat is a bit misleading because of sack yardage- which should count against pass total and not rush total in my not so humble opinion- and the botched FG attempt. Remove the sack yardage and the yards lost on a botched FG attempt and they had 107 RUSHING yards on 29 RUSH attempts for 3.7 YPC. Not exactly great. But not exactly horrible on the road against a front 7 as strong as ND's.
The bigger problem in my eyes continues to be the god awful pass blocking and a terrible passing game. IF they could pass block and if they had an actual passing game- 107 on 29 attempts should be good enough to get the job done.
The problem is the guy designs his offense to the point where it's all about the run game. It's like the passing game is secondary. In TODAYS GAME. It should be the other way around. Especially when you've got a QB as talented as Patterson and the WR talent you do at your disposal.
The pass blocking is atrocious. The route concepts and personnel usage don't make sense. It's just bad offense. Period.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXQ0WguuQfs
Shea Patterson - every snap.
his release is out of this world. lighting fast. his ball placement/accuracy are top notch. has more than enough arm strength and he throws on the run better than any QB that I've ever seen at Michigan.
OL was terrible pass blocking. RB's were just as bad- yet AGAIN. That was some of the worst pass blocking I've ever seen. If he wasn't as quick/athletic as he is- he'd have probably been sacked twice as much and broken in half.
Edit: Oh and that was pretty weak sauce by Zach Gentry at the 3 min mark. IF you want to be a big-time TE- you have to make that catch in the end-zone in that spot in that game for the TD.
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Michigan needs to stop recruiting guards to play tackle! Everyone and grandma knew Bredeson was a guard but that was M's signature tackle recruit that season because they told him so. And.. he's a guard. Shocking.
That shit is gonna hurt in the long term.
Michigan also needs to stop trying to do recruiting as if it's Bama or OSU or OU. Michigan is not that anymore. Today's recruits were 3 or 4 years old the last time Michigan won the Big Ten title.
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2 and 5 year averages and ranking will back that up
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2018/2/8/16990550/college-football-recruiting-rankings-2018-class (https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2018/2/8/16990550/college-football-recruiting-rankings-2018-class)
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He is creative- at times- with his running game. His passing game? It's atrocious.
Article from Inside the 49ers blog in 2015 on Jim's offense right after he left the 49ers. https://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/wont-miss-jim-harbaugh/
Reading that article now- damn is it prophetic.
Jim is a great turnaround artist. He picked Michigan football up out of the gutter- starting to doubt whether or not he's the kind of guy who can get over the hump and build a long lasting program.
He's a hell of a coach. But to me he just seems to have lost it. He's not the same guy he used to be. I think he might be on medication. He just seems to have lost that edge. It's like he's tamed now. He used to be batshit crazy on those sidelines and I think his team fed off that.
I don't think he'll ever get fired from Michigan, but he might be back off to the NFL in a couple years.
A word to the wise, Grant Cohn is a slack jawed, hot take throwing, know it all, daddy got him a job moron. That article is his usual brand of whiny uninformed trash. There are many things wrong with Harbaugh, but Cohn couldn’t diagnose them to save his life.
(He proposed a basketball trade so asinine, I’m amazed and editor didn’t spike it on the spot)
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Not sure I agree with this statement. Brandon Wimbush threw for a whopping 170 yards. It's not like Notre Dame gashed the Michigan defensive backfield for 400 yards passing.
To start the game LaVert Hill got beat twice and was benched for a few plays. They threw him back out there and he settled down and was himself and locking down.
Wimbush got 43 of those 170 yards on one play. A play that in all honesty was a poorly underthrown ball that should've been an interception in the end zone. Michigan safety Brad Hawkins was in position for the interception. Timed his jump poorly and let a 5 foot 9 inch white kid snatch it from him. Great play by that kid, but a really bad one by the rs freshman safety Brad Hawkins.
Not just through the air. He did more damage with his feet--that's why I said the front 7. Those are the guys that he put off their game.
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2 and 5 year averages and ranking will back that up
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2018/2/8/16990550/college-football-recruiting-rankings-2018-class (https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2018/2/8/16990550/college-football-recruiting-rankings-2018-class)
15 is a pretty impressive 2 year average. Particularly since they were 23rd last year.
Must have had a pretty mean class the year before.
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Michigan needs to stop recruiting guards to play tackle! Everyone and grandma knew Bredeson was a guard but that was M's signature tackle recruit that season because they told him so. And.. he's a guard. Shocking.
That shit is gonna hurt in the long term.
Michigan also needs to stop trying to do recruiting as if it's Bama or OSU or OU. Michigan is not that anymore. Today's recruits were 3 or 4 years old the last time Michigan won the Big Ten title.
Bredeson was recruited by Michigan to play guard. The OT recruit in that 2016 class was Devery Hamilton. Hamilton flipped to Stanford on NSD. Believe he is the starting RT right now at Stanford.
They took 3 interior guys in 2016 and zero tackles. That's the real problem rearing it's ugly head right now. It wouldn't have been such a glaring issue had the starting LT Grant Newsome not had the devastating career ending injury. But injuries are part of the game. You need depth. They haven't had it at the position. They have actual tackles on the roster right now. They are all rs frosh or true frosh. I say to hell with it- start them. Can't be worse than seniors Jon Runyan Jr or Juwan Bushell Beatty. Runyan is 6'3.5" and honestly might not be at Michigan if not for who his dad is. How many tackles that size are actually effective? It's extremely rare and the guys that are have really long arms and are athletic freaks. Juwann Bushell Beatty really only got the offer because of who his high school head coach and high school teammates were. Chris Partridge, Jabrill Peppers, and Rashan Gary. Neither of them belong at this level.
Not sure I buy your last part. First of all- no one recruits like Alabama. They had the #1 class like 7 years in a row. Something ridiculous like that. If anybody is coming close to Alabama right now it's Georgia. They are red hot on the recruiting trail these past two classes.
Michigan had the #8th ranked class in the 247Composite in Harbaugh's first real class in 2016. Add Shea Patterson (5*, #1 QB, and #4 player overall) into that class and it shoots up to #5. They had the #5 ranked class in the 247Composite in 2017. That's back to back top 5 classes if you include Patterson. The guy can definitely recruit.
The recruiting has been sliding downhill in 2018 and 2019 though because: on field results. That matters. A lot. Losing to a far inferior Iowa team by 1 point and then the heart-breaker in Columbus in double OT to end 2016 and then the 8-5 debacle in 2017 has definitely affected recruiting.
2018 Jim finished with the #22 ranked class. Right now his class is ranked #13 and if he doesn't turn it around fast this season he's going to have another subpar class. Michigan is a school that still recruits itself. They landed a 5* DE Chris Hinton out of Georgia in the 2019 class. They are right in it in the top two with Tennessee for 5*, #2 ATH Quavaris Crouch out of North Carolina. They are right there in it in the top two with Alabama for 5*, #1 safety Dax Hill out of Oklahoma. They are right there in the top two with Ohio State for 5*, #3 DE Zach Harrison. They are right there in the top 3 with USC and Colorado for 5*, #5 WR Kyle Ford out of California. Most of these guys will go to the end on NSD. Not gonna land any of them going 8-5 again and losing to all your rivals.
IF Jim gets the results on the field- meaning beating his rivals and having 11+ win seasons- he'd have zero problem landing recruits. Zero.
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Bredeson was told by the Michigan coaching staff that he was going to play tackle, and they even tried him at it.
ANN ARBOR, MI -- While the battle for the starting quarterback has come to an end, there are some battles raging on, as Michigan prepares for opening day against Hawaii on Saturday.
(What's next for the Wolverines? Make sure you're in the loop -- take a few moments to sign up for our FREE Wolverines Newsletter! (http://michigan.247sports.com/Distribution/SignUp))
One of the most hotly contested battles in fall camp has been at left tackle, where true freshman Ben Bredeson (https://247sports.com/Player/Ben-Bredeson-36046) has been trying to win the job over sophomore Grant Newsome (https://247sports.com/Player/Grant-Newsome-26834) and redshirt sophomore Juwan Bushell-Beatty. Speaking with the media on Tuesday, redshirt senior right guard Kyle Kalis (https://247sports.com/Player/Kyle-Kalis-2449) confirmed that this is the only battle remaining on the offensive line.
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Doesn't TTUN have a game this? Are we really still sulking over the Loss, and not yet focused on moving forward?
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Doesn't TTUN have a game this? Are we really still sulking over the Loss, and not yet focused on moving forward?
not sulking. more like pissed. don't care that they'll pound Western Michigan at home at noon on BTN doing nothing but running vanilla offense.
really pissed that Jim said in his presser the other day that they won't make changes to the OL against Western Michigan. It's beyond stupid. I understand not wanting to start a RS Frosh at RT and a true frosh at LT against Notre Dame on the road at night- game one. OK. Go with the more experienced guys, break the young guys in slowly against lesser competition. Problem is those two seniors were terrible. Beyond terrible. Perfect time to make a change and work in the two young tackles against WMU and SMU these next two weeks. What's Jim say? No changes and that in his mind the OL unit improved from last year. Beyond delusional. I really don't get it. Reminds me so much of his mishandling of the QB situation last year. He kept O'Korn in there 3 weeks too long and just kept making excuses and propping up O'Korn who was just god awful. Should've yanked him for Peters WAY before he eventually did.
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Doesn't TTUN have a game this? Are we really still sulking over the Loss, and not yet focused on moving forward?
Reading a thread is optional and not a requirement to belong to this forum.
We talked about scandal for a month. Isn’t it nice to talk actual football? A lot of the posts are about breakdowns or decisions on Michigan’s end and how that should change moving forward.
Hype followed by letdown is tough to let go. I’m still not over the 2016 World Series and that was 2 years ago. Being frustrated a few days after a loss and talking about it on a forum that is meant for exactly that seems reasonable, no?
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not sulking. more like pissed. don't care that they'll pound Western Michigan at home at noon on BTN doing nothing but running vanilla offense.
really pissed that Jim said in his presser the other day that they won't make changes to the OL against Western Michigan. It's beyond stupid. I understand not wanting to start a RS Frosh at RT and a true frosh at LT against Notre Dame on the road at night- game one. OK. Go with the more experienced guys, break the young guys in slowly against lesser competition. Problem is those two seniors were terrible. Beyond terrible. Perfect time to make a change and work in the two young tackles against WMU and SMU these next two weeks. What's Jim say? No changes and that in his mind the OL unit improved from last year. Beyond delusional. I really don't get it. Reminds me so much of his mishandling of the QB situation last year. He kept O'Korn in there 3 weeks too long and just kept making excuses and propping up O'Korn who was just god awful. Should've yanked him for Peters WAY before he eventually did.
I really think M needs to redshirt their lineman and let them develop. Playing kids too early can a) get them hurt and b) shatter their confidence. I truly believe that maybe 1 in 10 of all OL are truly ready to play as true freshmen. Maybe.
Bredeson appears to have been one of those 10, but what if he had a redshirt year? He might be playing tackle right now, instead of guard, given a year of heavy core training and hand and footwork development.
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Reading a thread is optional and not a requirement to belong to this forum.
We talked about scandal for a month. Isn’t it nice to talk actual football? A lot of the posts are about breakdowns or decisions on Michigan’s end and how that should change moving forward.
Hype followed by letdown is tough to let go. I’m still not over the 2016 World Series and that was 2 years ago. Being frustrated a few days after a loss and talking about it on a forum that is meant for exactly that seems reasonable, no?
YES!!
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Will the other fact, is this game was interesting and weird. I got a look at the advanced stats, and God it was weird.
So Michigan had an above average day moving the ball. They killed Notre Dame in that category, which tends to be the best long-term indicator of winning. but Michigan’s drive drive finishing was hilariously atrocious ( The offense wasn’t very explosive either). Throw in a couple turnovers, and Ashley does the vision field position and that is weirdly the difference.
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I really think M needs to redshirt their lineman and let them develop. Playing kids too early can a) get them hurt and b) shatter their confidence. I truly believe that maybe 1 in 10 of all OL are truly ready to play as true freshmen. Maybe.
Bredeson appears to have been one of those 10, but what if he had a redshirt year? He might be playing tackle right now, instead of guard, given a year of heavy core training and hand and footwork development.
Usually I agree with you on redshirting OL players. They redshirted all of their OL guys in 2017. The only OL from the 2018 class that was in serious contention to play this year was Jalen Mayfield. But they need to do something. Jon Runyan Jr was really awful at LT. JBB was nearly as bad at RT. It's time to hit the panic button in my eyes.
As for Bredeson. I don't think he's a tackle. He's a natural at guard. Could he be an average or above average tackle? Maybe. He's an elite guard though. Probably the only guy who showed up on that OL.
RS frosh James Hudson and true frosh Jalen Mayfield have the body type/athletic ability you absolutely look for in a tackle. Those guys have NFL potential just because of their body types and athleticism. Might as well play them now and let them get their lumps in and prepare them for the future. Doesn't really make sense to me to keep playing a 6'3.5" LT with short arms in Runyan Jr and a big, unathletic, slow footed Juwan Bushell Beatty at RT. There's zero upside there. Those guys are what they are. They aren't getting any better as 5th year guys. Time to move on.
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I agree that BB is not ideally suited for tackle - I've been saying so since he was a junior in HS, but he's the best OL M has right now, and the best OL needs to be outside. I'd try it at this point. Couldn't get any worse, right?
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Michigan's OTs were a problem, are a problem, and will be a problem going forward. I expected trouble but not that much. Could it get worse? Yes. Putting a freshman out there is not the answer. No, I don't have an answer. There is no magic quick fix. Maybe they'll improve over the next two games in time for the Big Ten opener against Nebraska but I wouldn't bet on it. Any team with a DE with a pulse is going to be trouble. Michigan has started recruiting more OTs. The coaching changes made at the end of last season were the right ones.
Its just going to take time. Years. So suck it up and Go Blue!
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It's the Curse of Erik Swenson
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It's the Curse of Erik Swenson
Lmao. Probably. I think he’s like 3rd string at OU right now. Would’ve been a starter here this year.
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I agree that BB is not ideally suited for tackle - I've been saying so since he was a junior in HS, but he's the best OL M has right now, and the best OL needs to be outside. I'd try it at this point. Couldn't get any worse, right?
Not sure I agree with this. Just because he’s the best OL doesn’t mean he’s a LT. He can’t be any worse than Jon Runyon Jr so you’re probably right though lol.
PFF had Runyan graded out at 47.7. One of only two fail grades they gave out to P5 offensive tackles week one. He was the lowest rated tackle in P5 football week one.
Again, he’s 6’3.5” and has short arms. That’s a really bad combo for a LT.
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Michigan's OTs were a problem, are a problem, and will be a problem going forward. I expected trouble but not that much. Could it get worse? Yes. Putting a freshman out there is not the answer. No, I don't have an answer. There is no magic quick fix. Maybe they'll improve over the next two games in time for the Big Ten opener against Nebraska but I wouldn't bet on it. Any team with a DE with a pulse is going to be trouble. Michigan has started recruiting more OTs. The coaching changes made at the end of last season were the right ones.
Its just going to take time. Years. So suck it up and Go Blue!
Disagree. Teams start RS freshman and freshman all the time. For some reason Harbaugh seems way too conservative when it comes to starting freshman early.
If it’s a close battle- and all indications from every insider is the battle with Runyan and Mayfield was close as was the battle with JBB and Hudson- start the freshman. If it’s reallt that close- just go ahead and start the frosh. Plan for the future let the young player grow. Makes zero sense playing some 5th yr scrub.
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There's a lot of pages here and I don't have time to read them all, but I hardly think this game is a time to panic for UM.
In context, they are 9-9 in their last 18 games and they've lost 3 or 4 in a row, and that makes it worse. But if you look just at this season, I saw some good things.
1. Both UM quarterbacks looked good, and so did their wide receivers. Higdon looks pretty good as well. I wonder what he would do behind a good O-Line.
2. Once they shook off their off-season rust, the Michigan defense looked great. They will probably have the best defense in the B1G. This alone will win them a lot of games.
3. A lot of their problems seemed like they were temporary problems that will be much improved from week one to week two.
Right now I see Michigan as the 2nd best team in the east. That's higher than I would have put them two weeks ago.
With that said:
1. What the heck is going on with Michigan's offense? it's so bizarre seeing a team seem to cycle between so many styles and formations. These are college kids with limited prep time. How are they supposed to master the world's thickest offensive playbook?
2. Pass protection needs some work. Michigan's offensive line isn't the most athletic, and they should probably modify their offensive philosophy to take pressure off the line. See Joe Moorehead's offense.
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Rosen Fulton and a former MGoBlog scheme guy had an interesting chat on the option call.
Basically, call was perfect, execution was good in a lot of spots, but QB not having the right feel killed it. (And that might be from having too much scheme)
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Lmao. Probably. I think he’s like 3rd string at OU right now. Would’ve been a starter here this year.
Played in a lot of games last season.
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I really think M needs to redshirt their lineman and let them develop. Playing kids too early can a) get them hurt and b) shatter their confidence. I truly believe that maybe 1 in 10 of all OL are truly ready to play as true freshmen. Maybe.
Bredeson appears to have been one of those 10, but what if he had a redshirt year? He might be playing tackle right now, instead of guard, given a year of heavy core training and hand and footwork development.
That's a rich get richer/poor stay poor kind of thing. Of course those kids should be redshirted but just as it's essential to save and invest to acquire wealth, when doing so prevents you from covering food and rent, you can't. Michigan's OL issues go back a long way without covering rent. The need to myopically fast track almost every OL every year technically goes back to the lead-up to 2008 as one continuous story.
On the current rosters, I saw this week that UW's only non-RS'd OL is Furtney. 17/18 got the developmental year. With M, only Bushell-Beatty *is* RS'd. 1/16 got that year. Chaos breeds chaos. And coaches aren't built to play for next year. Not even at UW, though new coaches there do benefit from walking into a system where what's the very best for this year's OL is conveniently best for the future too.
At Michigan, redshirting those kids all these years sounds great in hindsight -- because that's correct; I mean, just imagine if Mason Cole still had this year of eligibility -- but in the moment would have been like giving up in fall camp.
I think the analogy to how rich v. poor people have to approach saving really lands here. In the face of paying rent or saving dollars and getting evicted, who would pick to be "strategically homeless?" Even if "just" for one year?
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For PC's first year at UW the OL was a disaster. He walked into a mess. Poor recruiting and player retirements made it so.
2011 had 1 leave the program and had 1 (Kasl) start for 3 years.
2012 had all 3 OL retire due to injury.
2013 had all 3 OL retire due to injury.
2014 had 5 OL. One never made it to the program (mental illness) and one retired early to concentrate on academics. 2 are current starters (Deiter and Benz) and one is a primary backup (Kapoi). All 3 of those that remained started in 2015 as RS-F. There was no other choice.
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If "disaster" is relative, then I agree.
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So Michigan has lost that many, for similar reasons? They lost all but 4 OL recruits (out of 13 total) from 2011 through 2014, when both PC and JH took over? If so, yeah, then Michigan was a "disaster" too.
Or is just bad recruiting judgement and piss-poor development, given the STARZ gap between the two programs?
I'm leaning toward the piss-poor development, given that one of the programs has built an offensive line and the other hasn't.
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Sometimes I wish more fans would actually pay attention to the OL instead of the skill players. I don't care how good of a QB, RB, or WR you have, if the OL can't block, your offense is going to suck.
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So, U of M fans; anything seen in Game #2, that you think would have changed the result of the ND game?
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So, U of M fans; anything seen in Game #2, that you think would have changed the result of the ND game?
I guess I start and end with the obvious - that the (disastrous) first two ND drives are outliers against the M defense this year (and for the last few years). In a way it may also have been an outlier performance for Wimbush.
Especially the success ND had through the air. Those drives relied on pin perfect passes into great coverage. For example, on the first TD, the defender (Hawkins) in best position actually had the ball all to himself with two hands for an INT but upon contact with the ground, he didn't just lose it, he lost it in juuuust the right way to gently hand it to the undersized WR behind him.
So I guess I doubt the replicability of ND's offensive success. Of course, sometimes the offense wins, the end, but the game started uncharacteristically for both sides, and that seems rare, and least likely to repeat.
Possible caveats: Someone could argue that ND packed things in after their second drive. That's pretty early to believe but I can at least say "maybe". Though even that doesn't address the weirdness of those drives.
Irrelevant Elsewhere: I mean it's too early to have learned much about the Michigan offense. I suppose there is some opponent-invariant good news: in both games, Shea has been what we thought he was, which is a good thing. And the WRs have really improved from last year. This is not a comment that would change the outcome of the first game in a rematch, though.
More relevant but still irrelevant: the coaches seem close to switching out both tackles. Runyon and JBB were absolutely better versus WMU but not by enough to keep their jobs, I'd say. After all, they are what they are - insufficient players at the end of their road. My guess is that Hudson and Mayfield begin with similar or even worse results but (1) CAN improve because they are at the beginning of their road and (2) do so reasonably quickly.
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So, U of M fans; anything seen in Game #2, that you think would have changed the result of the ND game?
Runyan and JBB looked weak against a crappy MAC team.
All I learned is what I already knew. These tackles can’t play. Unless they make changes at both tackle spots that offense isn’t getting any better against the better teams on the schedule.
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To that end, Harbaugh's presser today was interesting. He was asked about Runyan and JBB but he answered with a soliloquy about how impressed he was with how Hudson and Mayfield played in garbage time. At the very least, he's thinking about making that switch.
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Interesting is a good term to describe most of Harbaugh's pressers
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Interesting is a good term to describe most of Harbaugh's pressers
Ha. You're not wrong.
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Shea says relax. R-E-L-A-Ecksssss..... Relax
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Shea says relax. R-E-L-A-Ecksssss..... Relax
I'll relax when Harbaugh makes a change at tackle.
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probably the most plugged in Michigan "insider" - Sam Webb- says in his opinion- you'll see at least one of the young tackles Hudson & Mayfield- possibly even both- be starters sometime this year. If he is saying that- means someone on that staff probably told him they are going to give the Seniors a couple more shots to prove themselves before moving on. Doesn't make sense to me. Just wasting time & reps that could help the young tackles improve.
Runyan and JBB suck. They just can't play at this level.
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OL coach Ed Warriner said in his presser today that true freshman LT Jalen Mayfield has been getting about 25% of the first team reps in practice. RS Freshman RT James Hudson has been getting a little bit more first team reps. Warriner said he expects to play both more this week vs SMU than he did last week. Warriner also made it clear all OL spots are still open for the taking.
https://twitter.com/nickbaumgardner/status/1039262577262559232?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1039262577262559232%7Ctwgr%5E373939313b73706563696669635f73706f7274735f616374696f6e&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2F247sports.com%2Fcollege%2Fmichigan%2FBoard%2F102410%2FContents%2FTWITTER-Thread-v-40-119538136%2F%3FPage%3D22
#startMayfieldPLZ