Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

So I read this, and decided to do a little research. And I came away with the conclusion that the it's very possible, the bitching and moaning falls into the lazy category. (Shoot, the laziest critique of any historical college list is to go to the NFL well)

We'll start with the easy part, the small schools. Yes, that's your rule that someone who kicks a bunch of ass against a worse schedule is just DQed. But that's your rule. The world doesn't have to follow it to not be lazy. Just doesn't. Shoot, Joe Greene was a consensus All-American. Before he went to the NFL, before they even tracked sacks. Somehow, every national outlet felt he was good enough to be an All-Ameircan despite playing at lil ole North Texas, which was D1 back when there was just one grouping. (Rice was FCS, and a flat0out beast on that level. We can debate if a guy who was a very good player against less good players and later against much better players has meaning, but he was a beast)

Butkus was clearly worthy, I suppose they could've said "He's a center" to be cute for you, but he's a perfectly reasonable pick no matter the spot.

Also, you got pissed about a two-time All-American for a team that spent most of his senior year ranked in Chuck Bednarik?

My problem is that these players that didn't have any better college careers than 20 other guys, they get on these lists because of their NFL production and notoriety, and it literally has nothing to do with college football.  These voters decide that name recognition should be some sort of tie-breaker, and that's BS. 

Minnesota's Ben Hamilton played center and was a 2x consensus All-American, but he's not sniffing this list because the casual fan doesn't know who he is.  Mark Donahue (Michigan), another CONSENSUS 2x All-American (at guard) only played 2 years in the NFL, and so he's absent from any teams like this because the "experts" probably don't remember who he is. 


Whether its laziness or clickbait or whatever, it most assuredly isn't correct, whatever correct might be.



And I'm not pissed, it's just something to talk about.  But the guy who we've all seen on the old NFL films videos with his breath showing in the cold and a couple of teeth missing and the deep, booming voice narrating his movements gets on all these "college" lists and the ho-hum guy who wound up selling insurance is long forgotten...when they were equals on the college field. 


Lazyyyyyy.

i'll attempt to explain myself, but i'm not sure it will find its mark here. 

Y'all can bust on the 'level of competition' as a means to detract from a players contribution- going as far as stripping their possible qualification of 'all time great' (distinguished apart from GOAT; but in the same 'class').  and it may have leverage in the conversation.  may.  but it doesn't always.

Moss was bumped from FSU, where we may have had a better measure of his abilities before he hit the pro's.  We knew he was good within his category but had no idea just how good.  Anyone within reason can now say 'yes- he was absolutely as good as we thought he may have been' because of his professional production.  This is the same conversation as Jerry Rice.  We 'thought', we didn't 'know'... we needed to pro's to show us.

Tim Tebow was a badass on the college field- part QB, part FB, size of an athletic TE or LB, and played with abandon.  I recall watching him go in the game in Denver for his pro outing, from somewhere around the 5yd line.  He swept to the weak side in effort to do what he always did in college- except there was a single DB (safety) who all by himself collided, taking the mighty Tebow down in a hellacious hit that confounded most folks watching the game.... because "hey that is Tebow! WTH happened there?"... what happened is Tebow met a safety that played at the 'pro' level...... which he rarely competed against (to that degree) throughout his college career.  Tebow was found to be still a physical player, but his reckless abandon and strength was met head on by a proven professional.  I don't know, obviously, but i can imagine the thirty seconds after Tebow got off the turf and collected himself he realized he was now 'at a different level'.  ..... all pretty elementary, no? ... hang on, the twist is coming....

~break~

Some players, NOT like Moss but more akin to Rice, now, who simply didn't generate the buzz or came from regions lightly if at all recruited... a HS conference untouched as the coaches lack relationships with the FBS programs.  I really think it's that simple.  Some players are good enough to not only play but headline in better conferences but aren't ever given the chance.  think of it like this:

You were just awarded $15M to start a tech company making wiffle digits for the US Military- contract secured so long as you can staff a boardroom full of resumes.  Are you going to invest your time searching community colleges and tech schools? Or, are you going to rely on other institutions to do the footwork- securing your engineers from MIT or Purdue as opposed to middle brandt county community college or something similar? 

closer to home: If you were fielding an expansion NFL team and had your choice of selections, and your post as GM was contingent on hiring the right HC and staff, and fielding a competitive team graded by year three.... are you going to draft a player from Mississippi Valley State?  Marshall? or... tOSU, UM? ND or USC?  LSU, Bama, UGA?  why?

it's the same thing with players at lessor leagues- the coaches at the greater leagues are reluctant to invest in them... because they expected the guys pointing them out to have done their jobs and they missed them?  Unlikely.... right?

but what about that guy playing in some 8 man league in rural Alaska or Montana, Wyoming or the Dakota's?  Just because he's the only gem in the range means scouts likely won't travel... even in the electronic age with youtube and email, those kids just won't be given a shot.  (this is the basis of 'missing stars, by the way)... however, they can and could compete if ever given the shot...

and it's NOT like this is just speculation based on some principle... instead, it's based on the likes of Jerry Rice and Randy Moss, both arguably the GOAT at their positions.  Terrell Owens is another example- love or hate him he was good at what he did... and where did he play? UT Chattanooga.....I'm just picking on these guys because their names have come up... except for Owens, anyway... who was a 3rd round 'guess' by the 49'rs.. His combine numbers demonstrated little about how well that draft worked out.... SF gave him a shot in the 3rd for whatever reason, likely based on size and the crossing routes they were fond of at the time.. and.... that effer produced and became highly valuable for 16 years of NFL service.  Why? Somebody gave the dude a shot.

so i ain't buying it.  there are quality if not fantastic players from every league/division playing this game. not all the ones playing FCS or less could compete- i'm not that crazy to suggest that... but..... there are some that DO.

and...... we required to NFL to determine how good they were- defining their college careers after their college careers were over.  if anyone had watched Marshall and Moss, they were in for a treat- but- it was easy to say "well, that is just aa ball" and sluff him off.  that would have obviously been a mistake, but we didn't know that even after the combine (for whatever value that holds anyway) as he didn't even perform at the '98 combine.  Two 'Sunday's' in, though, we knew and the conversation flipped to "wonder if FSU is angry about not giving him another shot now?"....   

- Lee Roy Jordan
All-American: 1962
Career: 1960-62
6-2 • 200 Linebacker Excel, Ala.


A unanimous All-America pick in 1962, Jordan was MVP of the 1963 Orange Bowl after registering an incredible 31 tackles in Alabama’s 17-0 win over Oklahoma. He was a captain on the 1962 team. He was voted Alabama’s Player of the Decade for the 1960s, he was also on the Tide’s Team of the Century and a member of ESPN’s All-Time College Football Team. He is a member of the College Football Hall of Fame, the Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor and received the NCAA’s Silver Anniversary Award in 1987. Although defensive statistics were not kept on a regular basis during his career, head coach Paul Bryant summed it best when he said, “If they stay inside the boundaries, Lee Roy will get ‘em.” Jordan finished fourth in the Heisman Trophy balloting in 1962.

Very true, but against who?  Leftwich didn't sniff a Heisman, and neither did Pennington.  In fact, the more talented Moss was, the greater the gap was between him and who he was lined up against.  So the more you think of Moss, the less impressive his exploits should seem.

I mean, he had the second-most receiving yards in 1-A ever up to that point and led a team that had been in 1-AA the year before to 10 wins. That seems good. The other factor was that people actually got to watch him. And he was treating MAC players like HS players. Now in one breath, you'll tell me, those are in fact high schools with tens of thousands of kids, but the weird part, and this is where things get foggy, is he also made them look like NFL players, because he clowned NFL players the same way. If you watched the dude play college football, you thought, he'd be killing any team they put out there. 

I don't like relying on the NFL stuff, but if you're going to write off most of the sport, the NFL stuff is gonna come up. You can say, who did he do it against? but then a dude like Rice or Moss turns around and does it against players better than those at Michigan, Ohio State or Bama, we say "No, that doesn't count either."?

Some of the larger question cuts to the point of this list, and to a lesser degree your particular perspective. By nature, a list like this is picking between favorite children. There are probably 20 defensive ends and guards you can argue for. If they had that guy from Michigan and one from Minnesota, you'd find some other hole to poke, and if it was exactly your list, someone else would. It just says the list is made by people opinions differ, and there are an insane number of hard to compare options (i.e. Minnesota undersized zone blocking center vs Michigan drive blocker from the 70s vs whatever offense Bednarik ran). 

Now, it's list about 150 years of CFB, so it might involve some weird players from the 1920s and it might span (gasp!) all of college football, from the powerhouses to the HBCUs to the mid-majors to FCS. If an FCS player could get a heisman vote, he can be considered. And I know, it goes against your somewhat narrow outlook, and that's the world. When you want indie rock CFB stuff, but only the mainstream indie rock stuff, you're going to not be in agreement with a lot of stuff a lot of the time. 

Yeah, Da Browns had a string of draft busts.  I don't fault a guy who had injuries.  The Bengals had a string of very bad QB drafts also.

I think Mayfield and Chubb were good picks.

Who was the best college player who flopped in the NFL?  There must be a ton of them.

You have guys like Tommie Frazier, who wasn't drafted, even without the health issues, was never going to be an NFL QB.  So I'm thinking more of a guy who was great in college, expected to be great in the NFL, and simply wasn't.

Here's a list of Heisman winners, who were also 1st round picks in the merger era, who I think you can safely say were busts.

Johnny Manziel
Robert Griffin III
Matt Leinart
Ron Dayne
Rashaan Salaam
Charles White - although he did lead the league in rushing the scab season
Archie Griffin
John Cappelletti
Steve Owens

Then a couple borderline Huskers
Mike Rozier - had 2 good NFL seasons
Johnny Rodgers - was quite good for 4 years in the CFL, but had 1 and 1/2 years in the NFL that were pretty bad, with a career ending knee injury

Jim Plunkett was a 2x Super Bowl winning QB, but his numbers were quite horrible, and I have no idea how he hung around as long as he did.

I'm going to throw out Manziel and White, because they had off field issues; and RGIII and Owens had injury issues.

Griffin seems like the easy pick because he was SO good in college, but he at least had an NFL career.  Same with Dayne.

I think I'm between Matt Leinart and Rashaan Salaam as my pick.

and Tony Mandarich