CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on August 18, 2019, 01:27:46 PM
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So this is something we can chew on. CBS Sports released their All-Time All-American team, and like many people, they suffer from NFLitis. They cannot, will not separate college careers from NFL exploits. Sigh.
Anyway, here's their first team:
QB - Tommie Frazier, Nebraska
RB - Herschel Walker, Georgia
RB - Barry Sanders, Oklahoma State
WR - Randy Moss, Marshall
WR - Anthony Carter, Michigan
TE - Ozzie Newsome, Alabama
C - Dave Rimington, Nebraska
G - John Hannah, Alabama
T - Orlando Pace, Ohio State
T - Jonathan Ogden, UCLA
T - Ron Yary, USC
-------------------------the OL on the 1st and 2nd teams have 1 G and 3 T
DE - Hugh Green, Pitt
DE - Reggie White, Tennessee
DT - Ndomukung Suh, Nebraska
DT - Lee Roy Selmon, Oklahoma
LB - Dick Butkus, Illinois
LB - Derrick Thomas, Alabama
LB - Tommy Nobis, Texas
CB - Charles Woodson, Michigan
CB - Deion Sanders, Florida State
S - Ed Reed, Miami
S - Ronnie Lott, USC
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K - Sebastian Janikowski, Florida State
P - Ray Guy, Southern Miss
KR - Raghib Ismail, Notre Dame
PR - Johnny Rodgers, Nebraska
AP - Johnny Rodgers, Nebraska
Now you might be wondering why I'm suggesting NFLitis. Frazier wasn't drafted, all of these guys were legit in college. And yes, they were. But their article still cites how many Pro Bowls guys went to and NFL Hall of Fame, etc. And their 2nd team and Honorable Mentions list has a number of NFL-notoriety guys that weren't all that in college. And that bothers me.
But look at this list and see who you would change out. Pace and Woodson were the only 2 unanimous selections.
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2nd Team:
QB - Tim Tebow, Florida
RB - Archie Griffin, Ohio State
RB - Bo Jackson, Auburn
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley State
TE - Mike Ditka, Pitt
C - Chuck Bednarik, Penn
G - Will Shields, Nebraska
T - Anthony Munoz, USC
T - Bryant McKinnie, Miami
T - Tony Boselli, USC
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DE - Joe Greene, North Texas State
DE - Bubba Smith, Michigan State
DT - Warren Sapp, Miami
DT - Rich Glover, Nebraska
LB - Mike Singletary, Baylor
LB - Ray Lewis, Miami
LB - LaVar Arrington, Penn State
CB - Champ Bailey, Georgia
CB - Rod Woodson, Purdue
S - Sean Taylor, Miami
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
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K - Alex Henery, Nebraska (I've honestly never heard of him, no offense)
P - Shane Lechler, Texas A&M
KR - Devin Hester, Miami
PR - Dante Pettis, Washington
AP - Desmond Howard, Michigan
I'll put NFLitis players in blue, how about that. And you can tell me how I'm wrong.
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No, guys from North Texas State and Mississippi Valley State should be on the all-time all-american team, sorry. High school schedules. Those are NFL-centric picks, period.
I love that Frazier is on it. I hate that Reggie White's NFL sack numbers are cited. They're saying in the history of college football, he had one of the two best careers at DE? What about Corey Moore (VT)? Hell, Florida's Alex Brown had the same career as White, and he doesn't belong anywhere near this conversation.
From everything I've read, Butkus was a better center than LB in college. But he was a badass LB on the Bears, so we have to include him here. What?!?
I know it's for clicks, but these are people getting paid to live and breathe college football voting on this, and it's just another All-Reputation team. Just like it always is.
I shouldn't bitch and moan like this, it's all just for fun, but it's just unimpressive. These voters at CBS are lazy at their jobs. These NFLitis players' resumes are good enough to make a single-season All-American team, they were very good players, but nowhere near the All-Time All-American team.
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if we're removing NFL from the equation, then there is no way that Randy Moss or Jerry Rice belong on the lists. Neither of them even played in the FBS. Larry Fitzgerald should be the other 1st team guy with Anthony Carter and Charles Rogers or Desmond Howard or Calvin Johnson or someone like that should should be the 2nd team guys.
I don't buy Tommie Frazier as the top QB either. Has nothing to do with NFL. He missed a lot of time with injuries in college and his stats were good, but never great. Great player, don't get me wrong. But best CFB QB ever? Not buying that. Give me Cam Newton, Tim Tebow, Baker Mayfield, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, RG3, or even Johnny Foosball ahead of Frazier.
Edit: I'd put Steve Hutchinson at Guard somewhere on that list. He's maybe the best guard that I've ever seen play the game of football. He was a virtually perfect offensive guard.
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Frazier was electrifying. I could have sworn he'd promised his family he would quit the game if another blood clot appeared, and it did and he did.
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Good call on Tommy Nobis it's forgotten how very good he was
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Honorable Mentions (got a vote or more):
QB - Staubach, Newton, Elway, McNair
RB - Doak Walker, Walter Payton, Jim Brown, Red Grange, Tony Dorsett, Reggie Bush
WR - Tim Brown, Calvin Johnson, Michael Irvin, Fred Biletnikoff, Lynn Swann, Kirk Gibson, Roy Williams, Peter Warrick
TE - Keith Jackson, Heath Miller, Tony Gonzalez
C - Barrett Jones, Dick Butkus, Dominic Raiola
G/T - Joe Thomas, Maurkice Pouncey, Lincoln Kennedy, John Hicks, Aaron Taylor (UNL), Jake Long
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DE/DT - Leon Hart, David Pollack, Steve Emtman, Merlin Olson, Ted Hendricks, Bronko Nagurski, Mike Reid, Terrell Suggs, Julius Peppers, Bruce Smith
LB - Derrick Brooks, Hugh Green?, Jack Ham, Pat Fitzgerald, Manti T'eo, Brian Bosworth, Lawrence Taylor, Luke Kuechly, Wilbur Marshall, Chris Spielman, Brian Urlacher
CB - Patrick Peterson, Roger Wehril, Terence Newman, Dre Bly, Darrell Green, Terrell Buckley
S - Roy Williams, Donnie Shell, Kenny Easley, Jack Tatum, Bennie Blades
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K - Art Carmody, Kevin Butler, Mason Crosby, Zane Gonzalez
P - Daniel Sepulveda, Johnny Townsend, Reggie Roby, Tom Hackett, Russell Erxleben
KR - Desmond Howard, Tim Brown, Ted Ginn Jr, C.J. Spiller, Willie Gault
PR - Deion Sanders, Ted Ginn Jr, C.J. Spiller, Raghib Ismail, Devin Hester, David Allen, Wes Welker
AP - Christian McCaffrey, Jim Thorpe, Marshall Faulk, Darren Sproles, Charles Woodson, Tim Brown
Players in blue are on this list because of their NFL exploits (or MLB, ffs).
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if we're removing NFL from the equation, then there is no way that Randy Moss or Jerry Rice belong on the lists. Neither of them even played in the FBS. Larry Fitzgerald should be the other 1st team guy with Anthony Carter and Charles Rogers or Desmond Howard or Calvin Johnson or someone like that should should be the 2nd team guys.
Randy Moss was a consensus All-American in 1997 and finished fourth in Heisman voting. He played as many FBS seasons as FCS ones.
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No, guys from North Texas State and Mississippi Valley State should be on the all-time all-american team, sorry. High school schedules. Those are NFL-centric picks, period.
I love that Frazier is on it. I hate that Reggie White's NFL sack numbers are cited. They're saying in the history of college football, he had one of the two best careers at DE? What about Corey Moore (VT)? Hell, Florida's Alex Brown had the same career as White, and he doesn't belong anywhere near this conversation.
From everything I've read, Butkus was a better center than LB in college. But he was a badass LB on the Bears, so we have to include him here. What?!?
I know it's for clicks, but these are people getting paid to live and breathe college football voting on this, and it's just another All-Reputation team. Just like it always is.
I shouldn't bitch and moan like this, it's all just for fun, but it's just unimpressive. These voters at CBS are lazy at their jobs. These NFLitis players' resumes are good enough to make a single-season All-American team, they were very good players, but nowhere near the All-Time All-American team.
So I read this, and decided to do a little research. And I came away with the conclusion that the it's very possible, the bitching and moaning falls into the lazy category. (Shoot, the laziest critique of any historical college list is to go to the NFL well)
We'll start with the easy part, the small schools. Yes, that's your rule that someone who kicks a bunch of ass against a worse schedule is just DQed. But that's your rule. The world doesn't have to follow it to not be lazy. Just doesn't. Shoot, Joe Greene was a consensus All-American. Before he went to the NFL, before they even tracked sacks. Somehow, every national outlet felt he was good enough to be an All-Ameircan despite playing at lil ole North Texas, which was D1 back when there was just one grouping. (Rice was FCS, and a flat0out beast on that level. We can debate if a guy who was a very good player against less good players and later against much better players has meaning, but he was a beast)
Butkus was clearly worthy, I suppose they could've said "He's a center" to be cute for you, but he's a perfectly reasonable pick no matter the spot.
Also, you got pissed about a two-time All-American for a team that spent most of his senior year ranked in Chuck Bednarik?
I understand part of the fun of any list is poking holes in it, but most of the guys you pointed to were entirely reasonable picks. Were they the best? That concretely can't be answered. If they picked a lot of guys who were extremely good college players, with some homage to way older teams. Could they have done more cute players who ended up so-so pros? Sure.
(Digging in on Alex Brown vs White, I think White's last year is probably stronger, through I don't remember much of brown. He put up a pretty good career at least by accolades. But I imagine beating Bo Jackson for SEC POY put White in a good spot)
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I will agree about the NFL career bias
as one example............ Will Shields was a great guard at Nebraska and an outland trophy winner and worthy of mention, but Dean Steinkuhler was a better guard and won both the Outland and Lombardi.
Obviously Shields had the better NFL career with the Chiefs - the only reason I can think of why he is on the list and Dean Steinkuhler is not.
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Randy Moss was a consensus All-American in 1997 and finished fourth in Heisman voting. He played as many FBS seasons as FCS ones.
My bad. Sorry I forgot that Marshall bumped up to D-1A (which is what it was called at the time) in Moss' final season at Marshall. Still doesn't change my opinion. Marshall played nobody in 1997. Their schedule was paper tissue soft.
West Virginia
Army
Kent State
Western Illinois
Ball State
Akron
Miami of Ohio
Eastern Michigan
Central Michigan
Bowling Green State
Ohio
Toledo
Ole Miss (bowl game)
That schedule is a joke. They played one P5 team all year long.
Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are all-time great NFL players. All-time great college football players? Not buying it.
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Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are all-time great NFL players. All-time great college football players? Not buying it.
true
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Randy Moss was a consensus All-American in 1997 and finished fourth in Heisman voting. He played as many FBS seasons as FCS ones.
Very true, but against who? Leftwich didn't sniff a Heisman, and neither did Pennington. In fact, the more talented Moss was, the greater the gap was between him and who he was lined up against. So the more you think of Moss, the less impressive his exploits should seem.
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Very true, but against who? Leftwich didn't sniff a Heisman, and neither did Pennington. In fact, the more talented Moss was, the greater the gap was between him and who he was lined up against. So the more you think of Moss, the less impressive his exploits should seem.
this is exactly how I feel.
Desmond Howard's 21 TD's in '89 or Larry Fitzgerald's 22 TD's in 2003 is a lot more impressive to me than Randy Moss' 26 in '97. Compare the schedules. It's a joke.
Moss should've had 50 TD's vs that pathetic schedule.
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And I'm only going to go here because Bo Jackson was mentioned. While I'm a huge Jackson guy and want his name out there for future generations (as he won't wind up in either the NFL or MLB HOF), and never want him to be forgotten, his case is interesting as well.
No one can dispute his ability - he was superhuman. BUT...why does everyone ignore the fact that after he left Auburn, their RB the following year averaged 8.3 yards per carry (Brent Fullwood), dwarfing anything Bo did. In fact, as Bo's backup, Fullwood averaged 7.4 ypc. Now, yes, as I've stated before, his fewer carries as the backup lent itself to having a better ypc average, but it's Bo Jackson!
The case could be made that Bo receives too much credit, probably because of his physical abilities and either Brent Fullwood and/or the Auburn OL in 1985-6 are severely underrated. I think it's worth posting, anyway.
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So I read this, and decided to do a little research. And I came away with the conclusion that the it's very possible, the bitching and moaning falls into the lazy category. (Shoot, the laziest critique of any historical college list is to go to the NFL well)
We'll start with the easy part, the small schools. Yes, that's your rule that someone who kicks a bunch of ass against a worse schedule is just DQed. But that's your rule. The world doesn't have to follow it to not be lazy. Just doesn't. Shoot, Joe Greene was a consensus All-American. Before he went to the NFL, before they even tracked sacks. Somehow, every national outlet felt he was good enough to be an All-Ameircan despite playing at lil ole North Texas, which was D1 back when there was just one grouping. (Rice was FCS, and a flat0out beast on that level. We can debate if a guy who was a very good player against less good players and later against much better players has meaning, but he was a beast)
Butkus was clearly worthy, I suppose they could've said "He's a center" to be cute for you, but he's a perfectly reasonable pick no matter the spot.
Also, you got pissed about a two-time All-American for a team that spent most of his senior year ranked in Chuck Bednarik?
My problem is that these players that didn't have any better college careers than 20 other guys, they get on these lists because of their NFL production and notoriety, and it literally has nothing to do with college football. These voters decide that name recognition should be some sort of tie-breaker, and that's BS.
Minnesota's Ben Hamilton played center and was a 2x consensus All-American, but he's not sniffing this list because the casual fan doesn't know who he is. Mark Donahue (Michigan), another CONSENSUS 2x All-American (at guard) only played 2 years in the NFL, and so he's absent from any teams like this because the "experts" probably don't remember who he is.
Whether its laziness or clickbait or whatever, it most assuredly isn't correct, whatever correct might be.
And I'm not pissed, it's just something to talk about. But the guy who we've all seen on the old NFL films videos with his breath showing in the cold and a couple of teeth missing and the deep, booming voice narrating his movements gets on all these "college" lists and the ho-hum guy who wound up selling insurance is long forgotten...when they were equals on the college field.
Lazyyyyyy.
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And I'm only going to go here because Bo Jackson was mentioned. While I'm a huge Jackson guy and want his name out there for future generations (as he won't wind up in either the NFL or MLB HOF), and never want him to be forgotten, his case is interesting as well.
No one can dispute his ability - he was superhuman. BUT...why does everyone ignore the fact that after he left Auburn, their RB the following year averaged 8.3 yards per carry (Brent Fullwood), dwarfing anything Bo did. In fact, as Bo's backup, Fullwood averaged 7.4 ypc. Now, yes, as I've stated before, his fewer carries as the backup lent itself to having a better ypc average, but it's Bo Jackson!
The case could be made that Bo receives too much credit, probably because of his physical abilities and either Brent Fullwood and/or the Auburn OL in 1985-6 are severely underrated. I think it's worth posting, anyway.
I agree with you again.
Bo Jackson is overrated, overhyped. Whatever you want to call it. As a football player. And he's overhyped/overrated precisely because he was a freak of nature athlete. A human being is not suppose to be that big, that fast, and that strong. There have only been a few guys like Bo Jackson since Bo Jackson. And they were all the Diet version. Tyrone Wheatley, Adrian Peterson, and Leonard Fournette are the only guys coming to me off the top of my head right now. In that 6'1, 220-235 range with incredible physiques, ridiculous power, and speed all in one package.
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i'll attempt to explain myself, but i'm not sure it will find its mark here.
Y'all can bust on the 'level of competition' as a means to detract from a players contribution- going as far as stripping their possible qualification of 'all time great' (distinguished apart from GOAT; but in the same 'class'). and it may have leverage in the conversation. may. but it doesn't always.
Moss was bumped from FSU, where we may have had a better measure of his abilities before he hit the pro's. We knew he was good within his category but had no idea just how good. Anyone within reason can now say 'yes- he was absolutely as good as we thought he may have been' because of his professional production. This is the same conversation as Jerry Rice. We 'thought', we didn't 'know'... we needed to pro's to show us.
Tim Tebow was a badass on the college field- part QB, part FB, size of an athletic TE or LB, and played with abandon. I recall watching him go in the game in Denver for his pro outing, from somewhere around the 5yd line. He swept to the weak side in effort to do what he always did in college- except there was a single DB (safety) who all by himself collided, taking the mighty Tebow down in a hellacious hit that confounded most folks watching the game.... because "hey that is Tebow! WTH happened there?"... what happened is Tebow met a safety that played at the 'pro' level...... which he rarely competed against (to that degree) throughout his college career. Tebow was found to be still a physical player, but his reckless abandon and strength was met head on by a proven professional. I don't know, obviously, but i can imagine the thirty seconds after Tebow got off the turf and collected himself he realized he was now 'at a different level'. ..... all pretty elementary, no? ... hang on, the twist is coming....
~break~
Some players, NOT like Moss but more akin to Rice, now, who simply didn't generate the buzz or came from regions lightly if at all recruited... a HS conference untouched as the coaches lack relationships with the FBS programs. I really think it's that simple. Some players are good enough to not only play but headline in better conferences but aren't ever given the chance. think of it like this:
You were just awarded $15M to start a tech company making wiffle digits for the US Military- contract secured so long as you can staff a boardroom full of resumes. Are you going to invest your time searching community colleges and tech schools? Or, are you going to rely on other institutions to do the footwork- securing your engineers from MIT or Purdue as opposed to middle brandt county community college or something similar?
closer to home: If you were fielding an expansion NFL team and had your choice of selections, and your post as GM was contingent on hiring the right HC and staff, and fielding a competitive team graded by year three.... are you going to draft a player from Mississippi Valley State? Marshall? or... tOSU, UM? ND or USC? LSU, Bama, UGA? why?
it's the same thing with players at lessor leagues- the coaches at the greater leagues are reluctant to invest in them... because they expected the guys pointing them out to have done their jobs and they missed them? Unlikely.... right?
but what about that guy playing in some 8 man league in rural Alaska or Montana, Wyoming or the Dakota's? Just because he's the only gem in the range means scouts likely won't travel... even in the electronic age with youtube and email, those kids just won't be given a shot. (this is the basis of 'missing stars, by the way)... however, they can and could compete if ever given the shot...
and it's NOT like this is just speculation based on some principle... instead, it's based on the likes of Jerry Rice and Randy Moss, both arguably the GOAT at their positions. Terrell Owens is another example- love or hate him he was good at what he did... and where did he play? UT Chattanooga.....I'm just picking on these guys because their names have come up... except for Owens, anyway... who was a 3rd round 'guess' by the 49'rs.. His combine numbers demonstrated little about how well that draft worked out.... SF gave him a shot in the 3rd for whatever reason, likely based on size and the crossing routes they were fond of at the time.. and.... that effer produced and became highly valuable for 16 years of NFL service. Why? Somebody gave the dude a shot.
so i ain't buying it. there are quality if not fantastic players from every league/division playing this game. not all the ones playing FCS or less could compete- i'm not that crazy to suggest that... but..... there are some that DO.
and...... we required to NFL to determine how good they were- defining their college careers after their college careers were over. if anyone had watched Marshall and Moss, they were in for a treat- but- it was easy to say "well, that is just aa ball" and sluff him off. that would have obviously been a mistake, but we didn't know that even after the combine (for whatever value that holds anyway) as he didn't even perform at the '98 combine. Two 'Sunday's' in, though, we knew and the conversation flipped to "wonder if FSU is angry about not giving him another shot now?"....
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I agree with all of that.
But for this exercise, it's not just about how good a player truly was, it's about what he did in college. Or a mix of the two.
Here, let's stick at WR. Tell me what Randy Moss has on Louisiana Tech's Troy Edwards, in terms of college career. One went on to be an NFL HOFer and one isn't known by 90% of college football fans. Troy Edwards isn't on the 1st team, 2nd team, or honorable mention. He wasn't 6'5", didn't play a year in 1-AA, and didn't run a 4.2 or whatever. He just produced.
Anyone suggesting the NFL doesn't skew all of these "all-time college football" articles and votes is blind.
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- Lee Roy Jordan
All-American: 1962
Career: 1960-62
6-2 • 200 Linebacker Excel, Ala.
A unanimous All-America pick in 1962, Jordan was MVP of the 1963 Orange Bowl after registering an incredible 31 tackles in Alabama’s 17-0 win over Oklahoma. He was a captain on the 1962 team. He was voted Alabama’s Player of the Decade for the 1960s, he was also on the Tide’s Team of the Century and a member of ESPN’s All-Time College Football Team. He is a member of the College Football Hall of Fame, the Dallas Cowboys Ring of Honor and received the NCAA’s Silver Anniversary Award in 1987. Although defensive statistics were not kept on a regular basis during his career, head coach Paul Bryant summed it best when he said, “If they stay inside the boundaries, Lee Roy will get ‘em.” Jordan finished fourth in the Heisman Trophy balloting in 1962.
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At the elite levels here, a player who did better in the NFL "confirms" that he was elite in college. I'm not saying that's right, but there are a lot of variable in a collegiate career. Some QB may put up insane numbers at Hawaii for example and look incredible and then flop at the next level.
If he turns into Brady in the NFL, it "confirms" his college figures.
Who was the best college player who flopped in the NFL? There must be a ton of them.
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Very true, but against who? Leftwich didn't sniff a Heisman, and neither did Pennington. In fact, the more talented Moss was, the greater the gap was between him and who he was lined up against. So the more you think of Moss, the less impressive his exploits should seem.
I mean, he had the second-most receiving yards in 1-A ever up to that point and led a team that had been in 1-AA the year before to 10 wins. That seems good. The other factor was that people actually got to watch him. And he was treating MAC players like HS players. Now in one breath, you'll tell me, those are in fact high schools with tens of thousands of kids, but the weird part, and this is where things get foggy, is he also made them look like NFL players, because he clowned NFL players the same way. If you watched the dude play college football, you thought, he'd be killing any team they put out there.
I don't like relying on the NFL stuff, but if you're going to write off most of the sport, the NFL stuff is gonna come up. You can say, who did he do it against? but then a dude like Rice or Moss turns around and does it against players better than those at Michigan, Ohio State or Bama, we say "No, that doesn't count either."?
Some of the larger question cuts to the point of this list, and to a lesser degree your particular perspective. By nature, a list like this is picking between favorite children. There are probably 20 defensive ends and guards you can argue for. If they had that guy from Michigan and one from Minnesota, you'd find some other hole to poke, and if it was exactly your list, someone else would. It just says the list is made by people opinions differ, and there are an insane number of hard to compare options (i.e. Minnesota undersized zone blocking center vs Michigan drive blocker from the 70s vs whatever offense Bednarik ran).
Now, it's list about 150 years of CFB, so it might involve some weird players from the 1920s and it might span (gasp!) all of college football, from the powerhouses to the HBCUs to the mid-majors to FCS. If an FCS player could get a heisman vote, he can be considered. And I know, it goes against your somewhat narrow outlook, and that's the world. When you want indie rock CFB stuff, but only the mainstream indie rock stuff, you're going to not be in agreement with a lot of stuff a lot of the time.
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Who was the best college player who flopped in the NFL? There must be a ton of them.
The Browns drafting had been inept at best for years.Dorsey however looks like the light at the end of the tunnel.Anyway the Browns back in like 2000 drafted Courtney Brown out of Penn State.He really had can't miss all over him,so did his teamate Lavar Arrinton.Both under performed but had injury problems.Though brown had a good rookie season it was down hill after that
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Yeah, Da Browns had a string of draft busts. I don't fault a guy who had injuries. The Bengals had a string of very bad QB drafts also.
I think Mayfield and Chubb were good picks.
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Ryan Leaf?
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Who was the best college player who flopped in the NFL? There must be a ton of them.
You have guys like Tommie Frazier, who wasn't drafted, even without the health issues, was never going to be an NFL QB. So I'm thinking more of a guy who was great in college, expected to be great in the NFL, and simply wasn't.
Here's a list of Heisman winners, who were also 1st round picks in the merger era, who I think you can safely say were busts.
Johnny Manziel
Robert Griffin III
Matt Leinart
Ron Dayne
Rashaan Salaam
Charles White - although he did lead the league in rushing the scab season
Archie Griffin
John Cappelletti
Steve Owens
Then a couple borderline Huskers
Mike Rozier - had 2 good NFL seasons
Johnny Rodgers - was quite good for 4 years in the CFL, but had 1 and 1/2 years in the NFL that were pretty bad, with a career ending knee injury
Jim Plunkett was a 2x Super Bowl winning QB, but his numbers were quite horrible, and I have no idea how he hung around as long as he did.
I'm going to throw out Manziel and White, because they had off field issues; and RGIII and Owens had injury issues.
Griffin seems like the easy pick because he was SO good in college, but he at least had an NFL career. Same with Dayne.
I think I'm between Matt Leinart and Rashaan Salaam as my pick.
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I’ll tell ya a guy who I thought would be a stud in the NFL who ended up doing nothing was Trent Richardson. Brian Bosworth would be up there too.
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and Tony Mandarich
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and Tony Mandarich
I'd out him the box of having a reason for falling short. Unlike injuries or off field issues, his was due to stopping doing the thing that made him so good.
I think the guys like Leinart or Salaam who were great in college, expected to be great in the pros, and just weren't, for no real reason, are the most interesting.
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RG3 should’ve been an all-time great.
He went to a coach that never wanted him, he suffered nasty injuries, and he also let the hype get to his head. His ego helped bring him down. Just a shame though. He was SO talented.
He’s basically the reverse Tebow. He had the talent but not the character or the leadership. Tebow just didn’t have the talent. If you had Tebow’s character and intangibles in RG3’s talent you would’ve had something incredible.
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I'd out him the box of having a reason for falling short. Unlike injuries or off field issues, his was due to stopping doing the thing that made him so good.
pretty sure Bosworth had the same issue
besides the glass shoulders
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I guess I'm just tired of things not being honest about what they are. Like the Heisman claiming to go to "the most outstanding college football player" when it obviously doesn't and hasn't.
This CBS team should be called the All-Time All-Fame Team or something along those lines. I firmly believe that if you kept everything the same for a guy like Randy Moss - his numbers, highlights, all of it, but he was an NFL bust and out in 3 years, HE WOULD NOT BE ON THIS TEAM. There is no doubt in my mind. Another ultra-productive college WR who did succeed in the NFL would replace him...which is fine, if only they were honest about it.
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I guess I'm just tired of things not being honest about what they are. Like the Heisman claiming to go to "the most outstanding college football player" when it obviously doesn't and hasn't.
This CBS team should be called the All-Time All-Fame Team or something along those lines. I firmly believe that if you kept everything the same for a guy like Randy Moss - his numbers, highlights, all of it, but he was an NFL bust and out in 3 years, HE WOULD NOT BE ON THIS TEAM. There is no doubt in my mind. Another ultra-productive college WR who did succeed in the NFL would replace him...which is fine, if only they were honest about it.
Agree 100%. Again.
Mark Ingram winning it over Suh back in 2009 still pisses me off. Ingram was a nice player on the best, most talent loaded team in the country. He wasn't the best player in the country or remotely even close to it. Suh was hands down, far and away the best, most dominating player in all of college football that year.
Moss spent 1 year in D-1AA and another year playing a complete joke of a schedule in the MAC. Marshall played one P5 team all year. Moss dominating that joke of a schedule isn't impressive to me. At all. He should've legitimately put up 40 TD's vs that schedule. And you're 100% right again. If he had been an NFL bust he wouldn't come anywhere near this list. His spot on the list is solely because of his amazing NFL career. Ditto Jerry Rice. Neither belong here.
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I agree with you again.
Bo Jackson is overrated, overhyped. Whatever you want to call it. As a football player. And he's overhyped/overrated precisely because he was a freak of nature athlete. A human being is not suppose to be that big, that fast, and that strong. There have only been a few guys like Bo Jackson since Bo Jackson. And they were all the Diet version. Tyrone Wheatley, Adrian Peterson, and Leonard Fournette are the only guys coming to me off the top of my head right now. In that 6'1, 220-235 range with incredible physiques, ridiculous power, and speed all in one package.
Brooks Koepka and Bo Jackson in pro-am at the BMW Championship 2019 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=108&v=xi7QTmheN84)
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I'm on board with the too much emphasis on the pros argument. College football isn't the end of football, and yes, Moss and Rice (and others on the lists) were among the GOATs, but not in college they weren't. So if this is a college list, then it should be measured on college football metrics, which basically means major college football metrics, e.g., P5+ND, and the other major independents of years past. Jim Brown is relegated to the honorable mention list for his lack of playing time; if he isn't higher, then surely Rice and Moss shouldn't be as high.
Barry Sanders is another one I question. Yes, great college player, yes one of the GOATs, but more than Archie Griffin, the only two-time Heisman winner?
RB is a tough category as there are a lot of great players with impressive resumes. I could see moving Griffin up, and removing Bo Jackson from the 2nd team.
Do we care if they played through their senior year? For a college list, that should help, not hurt, their case? Tony Dorsett was a Heisman winner and led Pittsburgh (!) to a national championship (I know, Pittsburgh claims 9, but '76 is the only modern-ish one). Anthony Thompson has a decent argument; Charles White, Ricky Williams?
And that sets aside the old guys, like Glen Davis, or Doak Walker.
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stats are great for measuring greatness, but I always default to the eyeball test of the highlight reel of the greatest plays by these great players
this allows for the old guys with Red Grange and Gale Sayers and Earl Campbell to stack up with players like Barry Sanders. I don't discredit Barry Sanders because he played behind Thurman Thomas and didn't get the carrier carries of Ricky Williams
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I'm on board with the too much emphasis on the pros argument. College football isn't the end of football, and yes, Moss and Rice (and others on the lists) were among the GOATs, but not in college they weren't. So if this is a college list, then it should be measured on college football metrics, which basically means major college football metrics, e.g., P5+ND, and the other major independents of years past. Jim Brown is relegated to the honorable mention list for his lack of playing time; if he isn't higher, then surely Rice and Moss shouldn't be as high.
Barry Sanders is another one I question. Yes, great college player, yes one of the GOATs, but more than Archie Griffin, the only two-time Heisman winner?
RB is a tough category as there are a lot of great players with impressive resumes. I could see moving Griffin up, and removing Bo Jackson from the 2nd team.
Do we care if they played through their senior year? For a college list, that should help, not hurt, their case? Tony Dorsett was a Heisman winner and led Pittsburgh (!) to a national championship (I know, Pittsburgh claims 9, but '76 is the only modern-ish one). Anthony Thompson has a decent argument; Charles White, Ricky Williams?
And that sets aside the old guys, like Glen Davis, or Doak Walker.
The griffin part reminds me of the nits we can pick.
That second Heisman year, he was the fourth-leading rusher among P5 backs and 500 yards behind a guy from USC. He only scored four TDs.
The point is, there will always be nits. There will always be someone who we can complain about.
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yup, I was a huge Buckeye fan back then and a Archie fan, but he didn't deserve the 2nd
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The question isn't HOW you rate the quality of a college football player's college career, it's that you take the time to actually do it. These voters and people inside the business go through the motions and pick name guys. Many are name guys because of their NFL fame.
My problem is people being paid to do a fun/easy job (if you love college football) and they don't do it well.
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On the topic of RBs, though, Barry Sanders ran for half as many yards as Ron Dayne did.
Barry Sanders started 1 season.
Barry Sanders has approximately the same carries, yards (and yds per carry, obviously) of Bryce Love. Bet you didn't know that.
Other RBs with basically the same numbers are Warrick Dunn, Ezekiel Elliott, and Tevin Coleman. And they all destroy Sanders in receiving production.
He had a great year. But putting Sanders at the top of the heap for college careers is like valuing Felix Jones over Darren McFadden (Arkansas). It's like picking a relief pitcher to start for the all-time MLB all-stars.
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On the topic of RBs, though, Barry Sanders ran for half as many yards as Ron Dayne did.
Barry Sanders started 1 season.
Barry Sanders has approximately the same carries, yards (and yds per carry, obviously) of Bryce Love. Bet you didn't know that.
Other RBs with basically the same numbers are Warrick Dunn, Ezekiel Elliott, and Tevin Coleman. And they all destroy Sanders in receiving production.
He had a great year. But putting Sanders at the top of the heap for college careers is like valuing Felix Jones over Darren McFadden (Arkansas). It's like picking a relief pitcher to start for the all-time MLB all-stars.
Our first disagreement in this thread.
Barry Sanders didn't just have a great year. He had the best single season any college football player has ever had. And I do not think it's really even close. The guy had 2,850 rushing yards and averaged 7.8 yards per rush. Oh yeah, he also scored 44 touchdowns.
I don't think you can really hold it against him for not having great career stats. He played in an era where most guys stayed 4 years and didn't play very much as true freshmen. Well, Barry left after 3 years and his freshman year he barely played. He barely played as a true freshman, he was mostly a special teams player. He was Thurman Thomas' back-up the next year and he had his moments, but Thurman got the bulk of the carries and was a 1st team All-American that year in 1987.
It's silly to compare any of those guys to Barry Sanders. He was so obviously so much better than any of them. Bryce Love has 30 rushing TD's in his entire 4 year career. Barry Sanders had 42 rushing touchdowns in a single season.
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pretty sure Bosworth had the same issue
besides the glass shoulders
I'm pretty sure you're right.
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It's silly to compare any of those guys to Barry Sanders. He was so obviously so much better than any of them. Bryce Love has 30 rushing TD's in his entire 4 year career. Barry Sanders had 42 rushing touchdowns in a single season.
If he was that much better than them, why don't the stats show it? They averaged just as good yards per carry as he did, for their careers. Whether it's an entertaining 7.8 yards per carry or a boring 7.8 yards per carry, they're getting the same work done. They're contributing the same amount.
I think most of us are hard-wired to think anything unique is special and thus, better. Even when it's the same end result.
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If he was that much better than them, why don't the stats show it? They averaged just as good yards per carry as he did, for their
stats don't show everything
check the film
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Our eyes are misleading, are they not?
Since the 1990s, when DNA testing was first introduced, Innocence Project researchers have reported that 73 percent of the 239 convictions overturned through DNA testing were based on eyewitness testimony. One third of these overturned cases rested on the testimony of two or more mistaken eyewitnesses. How could so many eyewitnesses be wrong?
Barry Sanders LOOKED amazing. He was fast, yes, but the shiftiest player we'd ever seen. Hell, he could walk on water, I bet. I saw him juke 2 All-American defenders and made them grasp at air. Darn tootin'.
And yet he carried the ball about the same number of times as those other RBs I listed and he averaged the same yards per each of those carries as the RBs I listed. The end results were the same. So I say again, a boring 7 yard carry is the same result as an exciting 7 yard carry.
Guys, if Sanders was as good as we all insist he was, he'd have averaged like 11 yards per carry.
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On the topic of RBs, though, Barry Sanders ran for half as many yards as Ron Dayne did.
Barry Sanders started 1 season.
Barry Sanders has approximately the same carries, yards (and yds per carry, obviously) of Bryce Love. Bet you didn't know that.
Other RBs with basically the same numbers are Warrick Dunn, Ezekiel Elliott, and Tevin Coleman. And they all destroy Sanders in receiving production.
He had a great year. But putting Sanders at the top of the heap for college careers is like valuing Felix Jones over Darren McFadden (Arkansas). It's like picking a relief pitcher to start for the all-time MLB all-stars.
That Felix Jones part makes little sense. Unless Jones has one of the best seasons ever in the history of the sport and it went unrecorded.
If you wanna include Dayne, fine by me.
The insistence on career yards? Meh. This is a sport with all sorts of wonderful curves and kinks. The guy listed as an all-time great QB threw sparingly. The classic CFB WR impressed with 800 yards. Four great years vs one out of this world season, just different flavors of ice cream.
Edit: I’ll address this part of the post above. “Guys, if Sanders was as good as we all insist he was, he'd have averaged like 11 yards per carry.” It matches what MDot said about Moss, that he shouldn’t have only set an NCAA record, but also hit some made up numbers. It’s kinda silly. If this guy was REALLY that good, he woulda put up numbers incomprehensible. It’s a rhetorical trick to argue down the quality of anything. And maybe that’s why we have lists like this, so we can argue down the quality of anything.
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The question isn't HOW you rate the quality of a college football player's college career, it's that you take the time to actually do it. These voters and people inside the business go through the motions and pick name guys. Many are name guys because of their NFL fame.
My problem is people being paid to do a fun/easy job (if you love college football) and they don't do it well.
So here’s where we disagree. I’m guessing they took the time. I’m guessing much research was done. Some discussion. But I’ve been around long enough to know time spent doesn’t always equate to an answer that’s rewarding. Sometimes it doesn’t at all.
And in the end, you my friend will mostly be disappointed in these lists, because you’re looking for a specific CFB brand of hipsterdom in this list. Tommy Frazier is a great CFB hipster pick. Hugh Green might be the best one, though Minnesota All-American center would top him. But you still want to apply a certain NFLish lens to it. It can’t be so hipster the small schools factor in. You can’t use playing the best players to tweak you’re understandings of player, but also adhere to quality of competition very closely.
Half the point of any list is that it spurs discussion and outrage. And you’re prone to being more outraged than most, granted for more interesting reasons.
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So here’s where we disagree. I’m guessing they took the time. I’m guessing much research was done. Some discussion. But I’ve been around long enough to know time spent doesn’t always equate to an answer that’s rewarding. Sometimes it doesn’t at all.
And in the end, you my friend will mostly be disappointed in these lists, because you’re looking for a specific CFB brand of hipsterdom in this list. Tommy Frazier is a great CFB hipster pick. Hugh Green might be the best one, though Minnesota All-American center would top him. But you still want to apply a certain NFLish lens to it. It can’t be so hipster the small schools factor in. You can’t use playing the best players to tweak you’re understandings of player, but also adhere to quality of competition very closely.
Half the point of any list is that it spurs discussion and outrage. And you’re prone to being more outraged than most, granted for more interesting reasons.
Good response. I’ve been wanting to craft a devil’s advocate type response to OAF but haven’t had the time. But you said it better than I could have anyway.
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A guy running behind a great OL against inferior competition might look almost as good as a great back running behind a mediocre OL for a mediocre team that doesn't pass very well. That second guy is better because he had to work for it.
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that's why the Sooner RBs don't make the list
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I enjoy these lists and the disputes that come with them. Still, even as painful as it is to say, how can these not include Troy Davis as at least an honorable mention? All he did was run for 2K+ yards twice on terrible ISU teams. He had somewhere around 35 TDs in those two seasons as well going against teams who knew he was their offense. Maybe this goes towards the NFL argument but can anyone explain to me why he wouldn't have won the Heisman if he was at a helmet school or how he is not listed as one of the best college RBs? I have no idea who he would replace but his accolades should have him listed somewhere.
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Troy Davis would have won the Hypesman at ISU if they could have found a way to win 10 games
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If he was that much better than them, why don't the stats show it? They averaged just as good yards per carry as he did, for their careers. Whether it's an entertaining 7.8 yards per carry or a boring 7.8 yards per carry, they're getting the same work done. They're contributing the same amount.
Um, the stats do show it.
2,850 rushing yards. 7.8 YPC. 42 rushing TD's. 2 return TD's.
3,471 total yards from scrimmage including rushing, receiving, and return yards. 44 total TD's.
IN ONE F$%^^NG SEASON.
No one in the history of the damn sport has ever dominated like that. On any level. Barry Sanders is the greatest RB who has ever lived or ever will live.
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Edit: I’ll address this part of the post above. “Guys, if Sanders was as good as we all insist he was, he'd have averaged like 11 yards per carry.” It matches what MDot said about Moss, that he shouldn’t have only set an NCAA record, but also hit some made up numbers. It’s kinda silly. If this guy was REALLY that good, he woulda put up numbers incomprehensible. It’s a rhetorical trick to argue down the quality of anything. And maybe that’s why we have lists like this, so we can argue down the quality of anything.
Except it doesn't match what I said at all.
I was talking about basing this on level of competition. Randy Moss played absolutely no one in college. His 26 TD's in a single season is not nearly as impressive to me as Desmond Howard's 21 TD season or Larry Fitzgerald's 23 TD season. Those guys played big time competition week in week out. Randy Moss played 2 years. Half his career was in D-1AA and his final year when they bumped up to D-1A they were in the freaking MAC and he played absolutely no one his final year in college. THE COMPETITION LEVEL was a joke. If he had put up 26 TD's in an actual conference vs actual compeition- then he'd belong on the list. He didn't. So he doesn't. Barry Sanders would've ran for 4,000 yards in '88 if he was playing the kind of schedule Moss played in 1997.
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I enjoy these lists and the disputes that come with them. Still, even as painful as it is to say, how can these not include Troy Davis as at least an honorable mention? All he did was run for 2K+ yards twice on terrible ISU teams. He had somewhere around 35 TDs in those two seasons as well going against teams who knew he was their offense. Maybe this goes towards the NFL argument but can anyone explain to me why he wouldn't have won the Heisman if he was at a helmet school or how he is not listed as one of the best college RBs? I have no idea who he would replace but his accolades should have him listed somewhere.
It’s a good point and the reason is we all have our individual qualifiers for inclusion.
NFL success
Major college competition.
Team success.
Eye test.
Statistical backing.
We all sort of think some qualifiers are right and some are wrong. Your case for Davis is a good one.
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So here’s where we disagree. I’m guessing they took the time. I’m guessing much research was done. Some discussion. But I’ve been around long enough to know time spent doesn’t always equate to an answer that’s rewarding. Sometimes it doesn’t at all.
And in the end, you my friend will mostly be disappointed in these lists, because you’re looking for a specific CFB brand of hipsterdom in this list. Tommy Frazier is a great CFB hipster pick. Hugh Green might be the best one, though Minnesota All-American center would top him. But you still want to apply a certain NFLish lens to it. It can’t be so hipster the small schools factor in. You can’t use playing the best players to tweak you’re understandings of player, but also adhere to quality of competition very closely.
Half the point of any list is that it spurs discussion and outrage. And you’re prone to being more outraged than most, granted for more interesting reasons.
My outrage is merely me entertaining the content and finding it an unworthy effort.
Look at some of the specifics. One of these people voted Brian Urlacher onto the all-time all-american team at LB...a position he didn't even play in college. That's embarrassing.
I guess someone thought Michael Irvin was one of the 2 best college WRs ever based on his.....flamboyance?!? It's a joke.
If I'm indignant about such things, it's because I, a leisure-time college football aficionado, would create a better team with little effort. Not the "right" team, but a much more valid team. But it also doesn't matter.
Idk what anything has to do with hipster wokeness when it comes to this - you're way off. There is zero connection between an all-american team and his NFL career, as one comes before the other. So being anti-NFL career when it comes to a list like this is plainly prudent.
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My outrage is merely me entertaining the content and finding it an unworthy effort.
Look at some of the specifics. One of these people voted Brian Urlacher onto the all-time all-american team at LB...a position he didn't even play in college. That's embarrassing.
I guess someone thought Michael Irvin was one of the 2 best college WRs ever based on his.....flamboyance?!? It's a joke.
If I'm indignant about such things, it's because I, a leisure-time college football aficionado, would create a better team with little effort. Not the "right" team, but a much more valid team. But it also doesn't matter.
Idk what anything has to do with hipster wokeness when it comes to this - you're way off. There is zero connection between an all-american team and his NFL career, as one comes before the other. So being anti-NFL career when it comes to a list like this is plainly prudent.
I can almost guarantee you the people who did the lists probably don't or barely ever even watched college football. As big as college football is, it's still a very niche thing. The NFL is still far and away the most popular sport and sports league in America. Which is probably why all this NFL career bias is coming into that list.
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Hmmmm....maybe they should employ people who DO/DID watch college football and are within said niche. Crazy talk.
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. On any level. Barry Sanders is the greatest RB who has ever lived or ever will live.
Then how did such ordinary RBs match his numbers?
It's interesting.
Herschel backers rely on volume for their argument.
Bo backers rely on physical tools for theirs.
Barry backers rely on his....running style? Because you can't just cite his stats, because mere mortals match and exceed them in equal volume.
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OAM, one thing you're leaving out is that the mere mortals you cited as "matching" Barry Sanders did so over more than one season, carrying the ball far fewer times per game. They were part of more balanced offenses who spread the ball around to more people.
Sanders was the largest part of the oSu offense the year he was a starter. That was not an award-winning O-line in front of him. Defenses could key on him with confidence. He carried the ball a lot. Yeah, the ball isn't' heavy, but 40 carries a game over the course of one season is a lot harder on a player than 15-20 carries a game spread over two or three seasons.
What's more likely: that an overwhelming percentage of neutral observers have wrongly concluded that--although he only started for one season--Barry Sanders is, or is at least very close to being, the best running back to play college football, or that you have an inexplicable blind spot on this issue?
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Then how did such ordinary RBs match his numbers?
It's interesting.
Herschel backers rely on volume for their argument.
Bo backers rely on physical tools for theirs.
Barry backers rely on his....running style? Because you can't just cite his stats, because mere mortals match and exceed them in equal volume.
To put it in the simplest of terms, yeah. I think most people think Sanders got his 6.8 YPC in more spectacular fashion than Love so that makes him a better back. That might not be fair. It might not even be right, but I do think that is the general belief.
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He had the best season, sure. But his lack of career volume isn't my fault, lol.
Now we're touting his number of carries in a season.....51st all-time. Incrementally better than Melvin Gordon's season. That's great. Gordon wasn't on anyone's ballot. Hmm, funny....he hasn't had much of an NFL career thus far.
I'll bet you a dollar he'd be on the list if he was rushing for 1,500 yds each of his first few NFL seasons. Silly me.
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To put it in the simplest of terms, yeah. I think most people think Sanders got his 6.8 YPC in more spectacular fashion than Love so that makes him a better back. That might not be fair. It might not even be right, but I do think that is the general belief.
Right.....talk about a blind spot. Barry Sanders' no gain and lost yardage carries always seem to get swept under the rug.
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He had the best season, sure. But his lack of career volume isn't my fault, lol.
Now we're touting his number of carries in a season.....51st all-time. Incrementally better than Melvin Gordon's season. That's great. Gordon wasn't on anyone's ballot. Hmm, funny....he hasn't had much of an NFL career thus far.
I'll bet you a dollar he'd be on the list if he was rushing for 1,500 yds each of his first few NFL seasons. Silly me.
Been to two Pro Bowl things, whatever that means. I'd take Gordon in college over Sanders in a heartbeat.
I'd also take Jonathan Taylor. Right now. Thankfully I don't have to. He's mine.
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He had the best season, sure. But his lack of career volume isn't my fault, lol.
Now we're touting his number of carries in a season.....51st all-time. Incrementally better than Melvin Gordon's season. That's great. Gordon wasn't on anyone's ballot. Hmm, funny....he hasn't had much of an NFL career thus far.
I'll bet you a dollar he'd be on the list if he was rushing for 1,500 yds each of his first few NFL seasons. Silly me.
Yeah, I agree with you. I don’t like that NFL success is taken into account but I can understand the thought process if it is. In college football there are big gaps in talent level and also huge differences in scheme and philosophy. I can see the temptation to peak into the NFL years to see who was still really good when the competition was at its best and the talent more evenly dispersed. I also don’t love that team success plays such a vital role either. Is Tommie Frazier really the All-Time CFB QB if Nebraska is winning 8 games and playing in the Sun Bowl while he’s there? Is Troy Davis given a lot more consideration if Iowa St wins the national title during his time there?
There really isn’t a right or wrong set of criteria because they didn’t really give any criteria for picking them.
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He just had his first season over a 4.0 yard per carry average. The point is that his epic college season + dramatic NFL success would = his name on one of these teams.
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Yeah, I agree with you. I don’t like that NFL success is taken into account but I can understand the thought process if it is. In college football there are big gaps in talent level and also huge differences in scheme and philosophy. I can see the temptation to peak into the NFL years to see who was still really good when the competition was at its best and the talent more evenly dispersed.
I could swallow this if guys like Frazier even got a chance in the NFL. He's not the prototype, so thumbs down, forget him.
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I could swallow this if guys like Frazier even got a chance in the NFL. He's not the prototype, so thumbs down, forget him.
Yeah, but that’s like saying, “Well if every single college player got a NFL shot I could see it.” That will never happen. There’s no perfect way to pick these teams. Taking into account a guy’s NFL success isn’t ideal but it also isn’t ideal to completely dismiss anyone who didn’t play at a P5 school.
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I can almost guarantee you the people who did the lists probably don't or barely ever even watched college football. As big as college football is, it's still a very niche thing. The NFL is still far and away the most popular sport and sports league in America. Which is probably why all this NFL career bias is coming into that list.
What would be the basis for the guarantee? Tell me all that you know about media hiring and how CBS works and who voted on this and all that. Or is the basis literally gonna be, "They thought Randy Moss and Reggie White were good."?
Hmmmm....maybe they should employ people who DO/DID watch college football and are within said niche. Crazy talk.
They do. And to assume they don't is to play the game of internet make believe. You can certianly think those people are wrong, but to imagine they just called all the NFL staffers over and asked them would be like imagining you know more football than even a mid-grade coach, which is something that a lot of people do because internet make believe.
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Right.....talk about a blind spot. Barry Sanders' no gain and lost yardage carries always seem to get swept under the rug.
I mean, it gets swept under because it's a topic without context. We don't track it closely. We don't track anyone else's either. So it's kind of an eye-test thing.
And when you take his eye test in total, hey look, people thing he's stupid good. (If the argument is, career should matter more, I'm cool with that. We probably have to take Frazier off, though frankly, if one wanted to poke holes there, one could with ease)
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No one should be completely dismissed, but if we're going to take into account (these are just items that have been listed in this thread) strength of schedule, OL quality, offensive playcalling, etc to differentiate between two guys from Ohio State and Georgia, then the same should be used for those in the lower divisions.
Rice was great at MVSU. Huge numbers. But I have to say again, was his career better than Troy Edwards? Trevor Insley? Corey Davis? Ryan Broyles?
There's precisely one advantage Rice has over these others: he was the best, most productive WR in NFL history.
All-Time All-Fame Team.
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Sanders was stupid good. Moss and White were great. No one is saying otherwise. But they should be on this type of team solely based on their college careers, and the're plainly not. That's all I've been saying.
Wouldn't it be amazing to read over another blah-blah college football fan click-bait yum-yum article and be pleasantly surprised? To learn something? To be shown a new idea that has a strong rationale behind it? Wouldn't that be something?
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This whole discussion reminds me of the 2nd-generation football players always getting the benefit of the doubt. Oh his dad was famous, w-whe-well then!!! They must be good, too! Let's focus and dwell on him much closer because his last name is familiar!
It's just so stupid.
Come to think of it, another parallel is how each new famous actress is "hot" and the most desirable. It's a revolving door - the dream girl - with each most beautiful one replaced by the next. Even if they're not especially attractive, just normal attractive - their hotness is braided into their fame. The more famous, the "hotter" they look, according to the masses. A name that comes to mind is Jennifer Lawrence. Take away the fame, she's a ho-hum attractive woman. But A-list actress Jennifer Lawrence is soooo sexy!
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No one should be completely dismissed, but if we're going to take into account (these are just items that have been listed in this thread) strength of schedule, OL quality, offensive playcalling, etc to differentiate between two guys from Ohio State and Georgia, then the same should be used for those in the lower divisions.
Rice was great at MVSU. Huge numbers. But I have to say again, was his career better than Troy Edwards? Trevor Insley? Corey Davis? Ryan Broyles?
There's precisely one advantage Rice has over these others: he was the best, most productive WR in NFL history.
All-Time All-Fame Team.
So, if you have a vote in this and you are looking at these 5 WR with these insane stats over different levels of college football is it really the worst thing in the world to take into consideration one went on to a HOF career in the NFL and the other 4 didn’t. Because if you don’t separate them that way then you have to separate them another way, right? And who’s to say the other way you choose to separate them is any better than the NFL way?
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Because whichever way I separated them would have occurred while they were in college. And yes, that automatically makes it a better way.
And again, like if the Heisman simply changed their claim, if it was renamed the All-Time All-Fame College football team, my point would be moot. But if they're going to claim it's a college all-american team, then the NFL aspect does not belong.
It's not complicated.
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Because whichever way I separated them would have occurred while they were in college. And yes, that automatically makes it a better way.
And again, like if the Heisman simply changed their claim, if it was renamed the All-Time All-Fame College football team, my point would be moot. But if they're going to claim it's a college all-american team, then the NFL aspect does not belong.
It's not complicated.
Lol. No, it IS complicated. If it weren’t then everyone would read it and go, “Yep, no arguments from me” and move on. No one does that. CBS didn’t lay out any specific criteria for selecting anyone. They just rolled out their All Time All American Team. Jerry Rice was an All American. Randy Moss was an All American. As far as I can tell that was the only criteria you had to meet for being chosen. The rest of it was deciding how you wanted to separate all of the players over the last 150 years who earned AA status. That’s pretty daunting.
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Besides any of that don’t guys like Frazier and Anthony Carter sort of counterbalance what you are saying about guys like Rice and Moss? There are probably plenty of guys in their mid-20’s who saw that list and said, “Who the f*** is Anthony Carter?” Or Hugh Green, or whomever. You said it would be nice to be pleasantly surprised to learn something. I bet somebody learned something about Anthony Carter if they took the time to research who he was and what he did.
Lazy would have been a roster of NFL HOF’ers or just P5 guys or just insane stat guys. But instead it’s a little bit of everything. It’s not perfect, but it really isn’t lazy.
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Here's a list of Heisman winners, who were also 1st round picks in the merger era, who I think you can safely say were busts.
Johnny Manziel
I can honestly say most of us Browns fans who followed college weren't happy - I was livid.You just knew his free lance,play by the seat of your pants play coupled with his pixie frame had disaster written all over it.Same reason Drew mentioned about Tebow - the cold,stark reality hit them - they were in the NFL
I’ll tell ya a guy who I thought would be a stud in the NFL who ended up doing nothing was Trent Richardson.
Did I mention I am a Browns fan?But I didn't see him falling on his face like that.With Manziel it was obvious,scripted and fore ordained
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No one in the history of the damn sport has ever dominated like that. On any level. Barry Sanders is the greatest RB who has ever lived or ever will live.
We've already had this discussion awhile back,in depth.Comparing teams played for,stats,schedules,records.Yes Barry's in the argument,he was very good - especially on artificial turf.Barry Sanders would make me miss and look pathetic doing it.He would juke me so bad I'd break my ankles.Earl Campbell would break my neck - for real.Watching Earl play was like watching a bull fight - you were giddy and grateful you were in the stands.To a lesser extent Bo Jackson,shame he broke his hip.Hell off the top of my head Peyton,Brown,Simpson,Tomlinson,Martin,Dickerson.Gale Sayers could change directions seemingly in mid air like no one I'd ever seen.Just like Dr J in hoops he did things that stats don't bear out.Jimmy Brown carried 4-5 Philadelphia Eagles the last 5 yards into the endzone.We see and remember what we want to.Barry is in the converastion but it doesn't begin or end with him
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They should have a Manziel Award, similar to the Fulmer Cup, perhaps.
I don't know a single soul who thought Manziel would be other than a huge bust, and he was worse than most of us expected.
I rather liked Mayfield, I didn't think the comparisons were apt.
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No they weren't.Mayfield is more the size of Russell Wilson or Drew Brees.With a style of say Favre.Manziel was the size of Kyle Murray w/o the discipline
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Over the years, fans in other conferences have tried to denigrate Sanders’ season by bashing OSU’s strength of schedule. That’s ridiculous.
You’re muttering to yourself, Big Ten/SEC fan, about the Big 12 not playing defense. It’s true that even in the 1980s, the Big 8 was a rootin’ tootin’ conference, though its raw defensive rankings were dragged down by — who else? — Kansas, along with a pre-Bill Snyder Kansas State. But! Sanders faced #16 scoring defense Nebraska (189 rushing yards, 5.4 per carry, 4 rushing TDs), #20 Colorado (174, 7.3, 4), #30 Oklahoma (215, 5.5, 2), and three other above-average defenses.
That’s as many top-30 scoring defenses as Herschel Walker faced in his 1,752-yard Heisman season. And the same number of top-60 defenses. Just for one example.
Quick interjection: Look what Sanders did to Nebraska:
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/43VwVMscGq4BHACCeVYI7ONH6ug=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/11720989/barry5.gif)
“That Nebraska thing was crazy, and that was a good Nebraska defense,” Jones says. “They had us down. We’re down like 40 points or something, and I’m thinking, ‘They’re gonna score a hundred on us.’ And they couldn’t tackle him, and it ends up 63-42. It’s the most points ever scored against an Osborne team for a long time, and he was just running all over them.”