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Topic: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team

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OrangeAfroMan

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CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« on: August 18, 2019, 01:27:46 PM »
So this is something we can chew on.  CBS Sports released their All-Time All-American team, and like many people, they suffer from NFLitis.  They cannot, will not separate college careers from NFL exploits.  Sigh.
Anyway, here's their first team:
QB - Tommie Frazier, Nebraska
RB - Herschel Walker, Georgia
RB - Barry Sanders, Oklahoma State
WR - Randy Moss, Marshall
WR - Anthony Carter, Michigan
TE - Ozzie Newsome, Alabama
C - Dave Rimington, Nebraska
G - John Hannah, Alabama
T - Orlando Pace, Ohio State
T - Jonathan Ogden, UCLA
T - Ron Yary, USC
-------------------------the OL on the 1st and 2nd teams have 1 G and 3 T
DE - Hugh Green, Pitt
DE - Reggie White, Tennessee
DT - Ndomukung Suh, Nebraska
DT - Lee Roy Selmon, Oklahoma
LB - Dick Butkus, Illinois
LB - Derrick Thomas, Alabama
LB - Tommy Nobis, Texas
CB - Charles Woodson, Michigan
CB - Deion Sanders, Florida State
S - Ed Reed, Miami
S - Ronnie Lott, USC
--------------------------------
K - Sebastian Janikowski, Florida State
P - Ray Guy, Southern Miss
KR - Raghib Ismail, Notre Dame
PR - Johnny Rodgers, Nebraska
AP - Johnny Rodgers, Nebraska




Now you might be wondering why I'm suggesting NFLitis.  Frazier wasn't drafted, all of these guys were legit in college.  And yes, they were.  But their article still cites how many Pro Bowls guys went to and NFL Hall of Fame, etc.  And their 2nd team and Honorable Mentions list has a number of NFL-notoriety guys that weren't all that in college.  And that bothers me.


But look at this list and see who you would change out.  Pace and Woodson were the only 2 unanimous selections.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 01:36:18 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2019, 01:35:06 PM »
2nd Team:
QB - Tim Tebow, Florida
RB - Archie Griffin, Ohio State
RB - Bo Jackson, Auburn
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Jerry Rice, Mississippi Valley State
TE - Mike Ditka, Pitt
C - Chuck Bednarik, Penn
G - Will Shields, Nebraska
T - Anthony Munoz, USC
T - Bryant McKinnie, Miami
T - Tony Boselli, USC
--------------------------
DE - Joe Greene, North Texas State
DE - Bubba Smith, Michigan State
DT - Warren Sapp, Miami
DT - Rich Glover, Nebraska
LB - Mike Singletary, Baylor
LB - Ray Lewis, Miami
LB - LaVar Arrington, Penn State
CB - Champ Bailey, Georgia
CB - Rod Woodson, Purdue
S - Sean Taylor, Miami
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
------------------------
K - Alex Henery, Nebraska (I've honestly never heard of him, no offense)
P - Shane Lechler, Texas A&M
KR - Devin Hester, Miami
PR - Dante Pettis, Washington
AP - Desmond Howard, Michigan





I'll put NFLitis players in blue, how about that.  And you can tell me how I'm wrong.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2019, 01:46:44 PM »
No, guys from North Texas State and Mississippi Valley State should be on the all-time all-american team, sorry.  High school schedules.  Those are NFL-centric picks, period.



I love that Frazier is on it.  I hate that Reggie White's NFL sack numbers are cited.  They're saying in the history of college football, he had one of the two best careers at DE?  What about Corey Moore (VT)?  Hell, Florida's Alex Brown had the same career as White, and he doesn't belong anywhere near this conversation. 


From everything I've read, Butkus was a better center than LB in college.  But he was a badass LB on the Bears, so we have to include him here.  What?!?



I know it's for clicks, but these are people getting paid to live and breathe college football voting on this, and it's just another All-Reputation team.  Just like it always is.



I shouldn't bitch and moan like this, it's all just for fun, but it's just unimpressive.  These voters at CBS are lazy at their jobs.  These NFLitis players' resumes are good enough to make a single-season All-American team, they were very good players, but nowhere near the All-Time All-American team. 
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 01:54:30 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Mdot21

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2019, 02:14:06 PM »
if we're removing NFL from the equation, then there is no way that Randy Moss or Jerry Rice belong on the lists. Neither of them even played in the FBS. Larry Fitzgerald should be the other 1st team guy with Anthony Carter and Charles Rogers or Desmond Howard or Calvin Johnson or someone like that should should be the 2nd team guys.

I don't buy Tommie Frazier as the top QB either. Has nothing to do with NFL. He missed a lot of time with injuries in college and his stats were good, but never great. Great player, don't get me wrong. But best CFB QB ever? Not buying that. Give me Cam Newton, Tim Tebow, Baker Mayfield, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, RG3, or even Johnny Foosball ahead of Frazier.

Edit: I'd put Steve Hutchinson at Guard somewhere on that list. He's maybe the best guard that I've ever seen play the game of football. He was a virtually perfect offensive guard.

Drew4UTk

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2019, 02:19:30 PM »
Frazier was electrifying.  I could have sworn he'd promised his family he would quit the game if another blood clot appeared, and it did and he did.  

MrNubbz

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2019, 04:22:21 PM »
Good call on Tommy Nobis it's forgotten how very good he was 
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2019, 06:43:56 PM »
Honorable Mentions (got a vote or more):
QB - Staubach, Newton, Elway, McNair
RB - Doak Walker, Walter Payton, Jim Brown, Red Grange, Tony Dorsett, Reggie Bush
WR - Tim Brown, Calvin Johnson, Michael Irvin, Fred Biletnikoff, Lynn Swann, Kirk Gibson, Roy Williams, Peter Warrick
TE - Keith Jackson, Heath Miller, Tony Gonzalez
C - Barrett Jones, Dick Butkus, Dominic Raiola
G/T - Joe Thomas, Maurkice Pouncey, Lincoln Kennedy, John Hicks, Aaron Taylor (UNL), Jake Long
-------
DE/DT - Leon Hart, David Pollack, Steve Emtman, Merlin Olson, Ted Hendricks, Bronko Nagurski, Mike Reid, Terrell Suggs, Julius Peppers, Bruce Smith
LB - Derrick Brooks, Hugh Green?, Jack Ham, Pat Fitzgerald, Manti T'eo, Brian Bosworth, Lawrence Taylor, Luke Kuechly, Wilbur Marshall, Chris Spielman, Brian Urlacher
CB - Patrick Peterson, Roger Wehril, Terence Newman, Dre Bly, Darrell Green, Terrell Buckley
S - Roy Williams, Donnie Shell, Kenny Easley, Jack Tatum, Bennie Blades
-------
K - Art Carmody, Kevin Butler, Mason Crosby, Zane Gonzalez
P - Daniel Sepulveda, Johnny Townsend, Reggie Roby, Tom Hackett, Russell Erxleben
KR - Desmond Howard, Tim Brown, Ted Ginn Jr, C.J. Spiller, Willie Gault
PR - Deion Sanders, Ted Ginn Jr, C.J. Spiller, Raghib Ismail, Devin Hester, David Allen, Wes Welker
AP - Christian McCaffrey, Jim Thorpe, Marshall Faulk, Darren Sproles, Charles Woodson, Tim Brown


Players in blue are on this list because of their NFL exploits (or MLB, ffs).
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2019, 09:14:17 PM »
if we're removing NFL from the equation, then there is no way that Randy Moss or Jerry Rice belong on the lists. Neither of them even played in the FBS. Larry Fitzgerald should be the other 1st team guy with Anthony Carter and Charles Rogers or Desmond Howard or Calvin Johnson or someone like that should should be the 2nd team guys.

Randy Moss was a consensus All-American in 1997 and finished fourth in Heisman voting. He played as many FBS seasons as FCS ones. 

bayareabadger

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2019, 09:35:27 PM »
No, guys from North Texas State and Mississippi Valley State should be on the all-time all-american team, sorry.  High school schedules.  Those are NFL-centric picks, period.



I love that Frazier is on it.  I hate that Reggie White's NFL sack numbers are cited.  They're saying in the history of college football, he had one of the two best careers at DE?  What about Corey Moore (VT)?  Hell, Florida's Alex Brown had the same career as White, and he doesn't belong anywhere near this conversation. 


From everything I've read, Butkus was a better center than LB in college.  But he was a badass LB on the Bears, so we have to include him here.  What?!?



I know it's for clicks, but these are people getting paid to live and breathe college football voting on this, and it's just another All-Reputation team.  Just like it always is.



I shouldn't bitch and moan like this, it's all just for fun, but it's just unimpressive.  These voters at CBS are lazy at their jobs.  These NFLitis players' resumes are good enough to make a single-season All-American team, they were very good players, but nowhere near the All-Time All-American team. 
So I read this, and decided to do a little research. And I came away with the conclusion that the it's very possible, the bitching and moaning falls into the lazy category. (Shoot, the laziest critique of any historical college list is to go to the NFL well) 

We'll start with the easy part, the small schools. Yes, that's your rule that someone who kicks a bunch of ass against a worse schedule is just DQed. But that's your rule. The world doesn't have to follow it to not be lazy. Just doesn't. Shoot, Joe Greene was a consensus All-American. Before he went to the NFL, before they even tracked sacks. Somehow, every national outlet felt he was good enough to be an All-Ameircan despite playing at lil ole North Texas, which was D1 back when there was just one grouping. (Rice was FCS, and a flat0out beast on that level. We can debate if a guy who was a very good player against less good players and later against much better players has meaning, but he was a beast)

Butkus was clearly worthy, I suppose they could've said "He's a center" to be cute for you, but he's a perfectly reasonable pick no matter the spot. 

Also, you got pissed about a two-time All-American for a team that spent most of his senior year ranked in Chuck Bednarik?

I understand part of the fun of any list is poking holes in it, but most of the guys you pointed to were entirely reasonable picks. Were they the best? That concretely can't be answered. If they picked a lot of guys who were extremely good college players, with some homage to way older teams. Could they have done more cute players who ended up so-so pros? Sure. 

(Digging in on Alex Brown vs White, I think White's last year is probably stronger, through I don't remember much of brown. He put up a pretty good career at least by accolades. But I imagine beating Bo Jackson for SEC POY put White in a good spot)

FearlessF

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2019, 10:34:48 PM »
I will agree about the NFL career bias

as one example............  Will Shields was a great guard at Nebraska and an outland trophy winner and worthy of mention, but Dean Steinkuhler was a better guard and won both the Outland and Lombardi.

Obviously Shields had the better NFL career with the Chiefs - the only reason I can think of why he is on the list and Dean Steinkuhler is not.
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Mdot21

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2019, 10:36:07 PM »
Randy Moss was a consensus All-American in 1997 and finished fourth in Heisman voting. He played as many FBS seasons as FCS ones.
My bad. Sorry I forgot that Marshall bumped up to D-1A (which is what it was called at the time) in Moss' final season at Marshall. Still doesn't change my opinion. Marshall played nobody in 1997. Their schedule was paper tissue soft.

West Virginia
Army
Kent State
Western Illinois
Ball State
Akron
Miami of Ohio
Eastern Michigan
Central Michigan
Bowling Green State
Ohio
Toledo
Ole Miss (bowl game)

That schedule is a joke. They played one P5 team all year long.

Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are all-time great NFL players. All-time great college football players? Not buying it.

FearlessF

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2019, 10:38:32 PM »
Jerry Rice and Randy Moss are all-time great NFL players. All-time great college football players? Not buying it.
true
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2019, 10:56:45 PM »
Randy Moss was a consensus All-American in 1997 and finished fourth in Heisman voting. He played as many FBS seasons as FCS ones.
Very true, but against who?  Leftwich didn't sniff a Heisman, and neither did Pennington.  In fact, the more talented Moss was, the greater the gap was between him and who he was lined up against.  So the more you think of Moss, the less impressive his exploits should seem.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Mdot21

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Re: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2019, 10:59:51 PM »
Very true, but against who?  Leftwich didn't sniff a Heisman, and neither did Pennington.  In fact, the more talented Moss was, the greater the gap was between him and who he was lined up against.  So the more you think of Moss, the less impressive his exploits should seem.
this is exactly how I feel.

Desmond Howard's 21 TD's in '89 or Larry Fitzgerald's 22 TD's in 2003 is a lot more impressive to me than Randy Moss' 26 in '97. Compare the schedules. It's a joke.

Moss should've had 50 TD's vs that pathetic schedule.

 

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