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Topic: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team
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OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #42 on:** August 19, 2019, 11:26:18 PM »

Quote from: Mdot21 on August 19, 2019, 09:41:06 PM

It's silly to compare any of those guys to Barry Sanders. He was so obviously so much better than any of them. Bryce Love has 30 rushing TD's in his entire 4 year career. Barry Sanders had 42 rushing touchdowns in a single season.

If he was that much better than them, why don't the stats show it? They averaged just as good yards per carry as he did, for their careers. Whether it's an entertaining 7.8 yards per carry or a boring 7.8 yards per carry, they're getting the same work done. They're contributing the same amount.

I think most of us are hard-wired to think anything unique is special and thus, better. Even when it's the same end result.

FearlessF · « **Reply #43 on:** August 20, 2019, 12:02:54 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on August 19, 2019, 11:26:18 PM

If he was that much better than them, why don't the stats show it? They averaged just as good yards per carry as he did, for their

stats don't show everything
check the film

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #44 on:** August 20, 2019, 02:40:06 AM »

Our eyes are misleading, are they not?

Since the 1990s, when DNA testing was first introduced, Innocence Project researchers have reported that 73 percent of the 239 convictions overturned through DNA testing were based on eyewitness testimony. One third of these overturned cases rested on the testimony of two or more mistaken eyewitnesses. How could so many eyewitnesses be wrong?

Barry Sanders LOOKED amazing. He was fast, yes, but the shiftiest player we'd ever seen. Hell, he could walk on water, I bet. I saw him juke 2 All-American defenders and made them grasp at air. Darn tootin'.

And yet he carried the ball about the same number of times as those other RBs I listed and he averaged the same yards per each of those carries as the RBs I listed. The end results were the same. So I say again, a boring 7 yard carry is the same result as an exciting 7 yard carry.

Guys, if Sanders was as good as we all insist he was, he'd have averaged like 11 yards per carry.

bayareabadger · « **Reply #45 on:** August 20, 2019, 04:43:14 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on August 19, 2019, 09:16:34 PM

On the topic of RBs, though, Barry Sanders ran for half as many yards as Ron Dayne did.
Barry Sanders started 1 season.
Barry Sanders has approximately the same carries, yards (and yds per carry, obviously) of Bryce Love. Bet you didn't know that.
Other RBs with basically the same numbers are Warrick Dunn, Ezekiel Elliott, and Tevin Coleman. And they all destroy Sanders in receiving production.

He had a great year. But putting Sanders at the top of the heap for college careers is like valuing Felix Jones over Darren McFadden (Arkansas). It's like picking a relief pitcher to start for the all-time MLB all-stars.

That Felix Jones part makes little sense. Unless Jones has one of the best seasons ever in the history of the sport and it went unrecorded.

If you wanna include Dayne, fine by me.

The insistence on career yards? Meh. This is a sport with all sorts of wonderful curves and kinks. The guy listed as an all-time great QB threw sparingly. The classic CFB WR impressed with 800 yards. Four great years vs one out of this world season, just different flavors of ice cream.

Edit: I’ll address this part of the post above. “Guys, if Sanders was as good as we all insist he was, he'd have averaged like 11 yards per carry.” It matches what MDot said about Moss, that he shouldn’t have only set an NCAA record, but also hit some made up numbers. It’s kinda silly. If this guy was REALLY that good, he woulda put up numbers incomprehensible. It’s a rhetorical trick to argue down the quality of anything. And maybe that’s why we have lists like this, so we can argue down the quality of anything.

bayareabadger · « **Reply #46 on:** August 20, 2019, 05:00:13 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on August 19, 2019, 09:08:14 PM

The question isn't HOW you rate the quality of a college football player's college career, it's that you take the time to actually do it. These voters and people inside the business go through the motions and pick name guys. Many are name guys because of their NFL fame.

My problem is people being paid to do a fun/easy job (if you love college football) and they don't do it well.

So here’s where we disagree. I’m guessing they took the time. I’m guessing much research was done. Some discussion. But I’ve been around long enough to know time spent doesn’t always equate to an answer that’s rewarding. Sometimes it doesn’t at all.

And in the end, you my friend will mostly be disappointed in these lists, because you’re looking for a specific CFB brand of hipsterdom in this list. Tommy Frazier is a great CFB hipster pick. Hugh Green might be the best one, though Minnesota All-American center would top him. But you still want to apply a certain NFLish lens to it. It can’t be so hipster the small schools factor in. You can’t use playing the best players to tweak you’re understandings of player, but also adhere to quality of competition very closely.

Half the point of any list is that it spurs discussion and outrage. And you’re prone to being more outraged than most, granted for more interesting reasons.

Kris60 · « **Reply #47 on:** August 20, 2019, 11:50:07 AM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on August 20, 2019, 05:00:13 AM

So here’s where we disagree. I’m guessing they took the time. I’m guessing much research was done. Some discussion. But I’ve been around long enough to know time spent doesn’t always equate to an answer that’s rewarding. Sometimes it doesn’t at all.

And in the end, you my friend will mostly be disappointed in these lists, because you’re looking for a specific CFB brand of hipsterdom in this list. Tommy Frazier is a great CFB hipster pick. Hugh Green might be the best one, though Minnesota All-American center would top him. But you still want to apply a certain NFLish lens to it. It can’t be so hipster the small schools factor in. You can’t use playing the best players to tweak you’re understandings of player, but also adhere to quality of competition very closely.

Half the point of any list is that it spurs discussion and outrage. And you’re prone to being more outraged than most, granted for more interesting reasons.

Good response. I’ve been wanting to craft a devil’s advocate type response to OAF but haven’t had the time. But you said it better than I could have anyway.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #48 on:** August 20, 2019, 11:53:29 AM »

A guy running behind a great OL against inferior competition might look almost as good as a great back running behind a mediocre OL for a mediocre team that doesn't pass very well. That second guy is better because he had to work for it.

FearlessF · « **Reply #49 on:** August 20, 2019, 12:08:59 PM »

that's why the Sooner RBs don't make the list

HawkFrenzy · « **Reply #50 on:** August 20, 2019, 01:46:18 PM »

I enjoy these lists and the disputes that come with them. Still, even as painful as it is to say, how can these not include Troy Davis as at least an honorable mention? All he did was run for 2K+ yards twice on terrible ISU teams. He had somewhere around 35 TDs in those two seasons as well going against teams who knew he was their offense. Maybe this goes towards the NFL argument but can anyone explain to me why he wouldn't have won the Heisman if he was at a helmet school or how he is not listed as one of the best college RBs? I have no idea who he would replace but his accolades should have him listed somewhere.

FearlessF · « **Reply #51 on:** August 20, 2019, 02:24:53 PM »

Troy Davis would have won the Hypesman at ISU if they could have found a way to win 10 games

Mdot21 · « **Reply #52 on:** August 20, 2019, 04:50:39 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on August 19, 2019, 11:26:18 PM

If he was that much better than them, why don't the stats show it? They averaged just as good yards per carry as he did, for their careers. Whether it's an entertaining 7.8 yards per carry or a boring 7.8 yards per carry, they're getting the same work done. They're contributing the same amount.

Um, the stats do show it.

2,850 rushing yards. 7.8 YPC. 42 rushing TD's. 2 return TD's.

3,471 total yards from scrimmage including rushing, receiving, and return yards. 44 total TD's.

IN ONE F$%^^NG SEASON.

No one in the history of the damn sport has ever dominated like that. On any level. Barry Sanders is the greatest RB who has ever lived or ever will live.

Mdot21 · « **Reply #53 on:** August 20, 2019, 04:56:02 PM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on August 20, 2019, 04:43:14 AM

Edit: I’ll address this part of the post above. “Guys, if Sanders was as good as we all insist he was, he'd have averaged like 11 yards per carry.” It matches what MDot said about Moss, that he shouldn’t have only set an NCAA record, but also hit some made up numbers. It’s kinda silly. If this guy was REALLY that good, he woulda put up numbers incomprehensible. It’s a rhetorical trick to argue down the quality of anything. And maybe that’s why we have lists like this, so we can argue down the quality of anything.

Except it doesn't match what I said at all.

I was talking about basing this on level of competition. Randy Moss played absolutely no one in college. His 26 TD's in a single season is not nearly as impressive to me as Desmond Howard's 21 TD season or Larry Fitzgerald's 23 TD season. Those guys played big time competition week in week out. Randy Moss played 2 years. Half his career was in D-1AA and his final year when they bumped up to D-1A they were in the freaking MAC and he played absolutely no one his final year in college. THE COMPETITION LEVEL was a joke. If he had put up 26 TD's in an actual conference vs actual compeition- then he'd belong on the list. He didn't. So he doesn't. Barry Sanders would've ran for 4,000 yards in '88 if he was playing the kind of schedule Moss played in 1997.

Kris60 · « **Reply #54 on:** August 20, 2019, 05:31:35 PM »

Quote from: HawkFrenzy on August 20, 2019, 01:46:18 PM

I enjoy these lists and the disputes that come with them. Still, even as painful as it is to say, how can these not include Troy Davis as at least an honorable mention? All he did was run for 2K+ yards twice on terrible ISU teams. He had somewhere around 35 TDs in those two seasons as well going against teams who knew he was their offense. Maybe this goes towards the NFL argument but can anyone explain to me why he wouldn't have won the Heisman if he was at a helmet school or how he is not listed as one of the best college RBs? I have no idea who he would replace but his accolades should have him listed somewhere.

It’s a good point and the reason is we all have our individual qualifiers for inclusion.

NFL success
Major college competition.
Team success.
Eye test.
Statistical backing.

We all sort of think some qualifiers are right and some are wrong. Your case for Davis is a good one.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #55 on:** August 20, 2019, 07:27:12 PM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on August 20, 2019, 05:00:13 AM

So here’s where we disagree. I’m guessing they took the time. I’m guessing much research was done. Some discussion. But I’ve been around long enough to know time spent doesn’t always equate to an answer that’s rewarding. Sometimes it doesn’t at all.

And in the end, you my friend will mostly be disappointed in these lists, because you’re looking for a specific CFB brand of hipsterdom in this list. Tommy Frazier is a great CFB hipster pick. Hugh Green might be the best one, though Minnesota All-American center would top him. But you still want to apply a certain NFLish lens to it. It can’t be so hipster the small schools factor in. You can’t use playing the best players to tweak you’re understandings of player, but also adhere to quality of competition very closely.

Half the point of any list is that it spurs discussion and outrage. And you’re prone to being more outraged than most, granted for more interesting reasons.

My outrage is merely me entertaining the content and finding it an unworthy effort.
Look at some of the specifics. One of these people voted Brian Urlacher onto the all-time all-american team at LB...a position he didn't even play in college. That's embarrassing.
I guess someone thought Michael Irvin was one of the 2 best college WRs ever based on his.....flamboyance?!? It's a joke.

If I'm indignant about such things, it's because I, a leisure-time college football aficionado, would create a better team with little effort. Not the "right" team, but a much more valid team. But it also doesn't matter.

Idk what anything has to do with hipster wokeness when it comes to this - you're way off. There is zero connection between an all-american team and his NFL career, as one comes before the other. So being anti-NFL career when it comes to a list like this is plainly prudent.

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Topic: CBS 150 Years of CF All-Time All-American Team

OrangeAfroMan

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FearlessF

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OrangeAfroMan

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bayareabadger

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bayareabadger

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Kris60

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Cincydawg

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FearlessF

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HawkFrenzy

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FearlessF

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Mdot21

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Mdot21

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Kris60

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OrangeAfroMan

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