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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1372 on: June 07, 2019, 03:08:52 PM »
Raising money with taxes is practicable in theory, but what do you do with the revenue?  Buy new power producers for utilities?  Build wind/solar and sell to utilities?

Would that appreciably make things happen faster than they are now? 

I'd focus on closing the coal power plants, as I said, but even that sounds tough.
The revenue from the carbon tax goes to the SS/Medicare trust fund, to replace the lost revenue from the payroll tax. I'm not trying to "raise" revenue, I'm trying to change the revenue source such that it discourages the use of fossil fuels rather than discourages employment. 

Taxes make things more expensive. Subsidies make things cheaper. The key accelerant towards adoption of cleaner energy sources isn't the raw price of those sources, but the relative price of those sources. 

The key is that we--as a society--don't necessarily care WHICH clean energy source ends up winning the race relative to carbon. We're not "pro-solar", we're "anti-CO2". So instead of trying to pick winners, why not just implement a carbon tax to put a handicap on the one we all want to lose and then see who wins the race?

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1373 on: June 07, 2019, 03:14:46 PM »
Ah, I missed that, thanks.

MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1374 on: June 07, 2019, 03:22:07 PM »
Lake Michigan (Huron) is at an all-time high, which is being blamed on climate change.


In 2013, when Lake Michigan (Huron) were all-time lows, it was blamed on global warming.


I see what they did there.
Lake Erie is at it's highest levels since 1986.It's been so wet the last month people are starting to resemble tadpoles
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1375 on: June 07, 2019, 03:48:10 PM »
plenty of wet spots here to spawn nats and mosquitoes
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1376 on: June 07, 2019, 03:55:07 PM »


The key is that we--as a society--don't necessarily care WHICH clean energy source ends up winning the race relative to carbon. We're not "pro-solar", we're "anti-CO2". So instead of trying to pick winners, why not just implement a carbon tax to put a handicap on the one we all want to lose and then see who wins the race?
I bet if nuclear "won", people would care.

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1377 on: June 07, 2019, 03:58:57 PM »
some people would

some folks don't care for wind power
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1378 on: June 07, 2019, 04:13:18 PM »
I bet if nuclear "won", people would care.
I'm not anti-nuke. If it is the most economical solution, then let's do it. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1379 on: June 07, 2019, 04:20:56 PM »
A lot of folks are anti-nuke of course.  Not so much in France.

847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1380 on: June 07, 2019, 04:24:54 PM »
some people would

some folks don't care for wind power
Lots of folks don't care for wind power. Especially those who live nearby. That lease money looked good up front, and then flicker happens.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1381 on: June 07, 2019, 05:04:17 PM »
I don't mind the flicker, but it's not 24/7 for me.  I don't live there.

Just pass through occasionally, like last night 
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1382 on: June 08, 2019, 06:53:59 AM »
I thought Flicker was some TV show about a dolphin or something ...

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1383 on: June 08, 2019, 08:37:17 AM »
back in the good old days when oil was cheap and the world would sustain humanity forever
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1384 on: June 08, 2019, 08:48:25 AM »
There have been numerous projections in history that humanity was going to kill itself off, Malthus is the most famous perhaps.  There was the Population Bomb circa 1970 ss I recall.  In about 1890, someone did a projection of the amount of horse poop over time in NYC and stated they'd be 10 feet deep and unable to remove it all in ten years, or something like that.  I clearly recall the various "Zero Oil" arguments in 1980 or so and even bought a more fuel efficient car because I thought gasoline prices would only go higher and higher and higher.

Missed projections of course do not mean the next one is not right, but it is a sobering reminder that our models may have errors.

All models are wrong, some models are useful.

My hope for climate change is that the models are wrong the right way, and of course they could be wrong in the bad way.  I see no practicable means to limit CO2 emissions globally fast enough to make sufficient difference in the outcome.  Humanity MIGHT with some effort level CO2 emissions by say 2030, I doubt even that happens, but it's possible, and that would not be sufficient.


FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1385 on: June 08, 2019, 09:08:21 AM »
most folks are a bit over dramatic in their reporting, usually innocently, just human nature
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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