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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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SFBadger96

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #882 on: April 10, 2019, 03:14:07 PM »
so the proposed Tesla Semi would be for short hauls, less than 500 miles?
Tesla advertises a 300 or 500 mile range. Impacted, presumably, by grade changes. Presumably climbs over mountain ranges will dramatically reduce the battery life.
So as long as the trucker is planning trips along flat, rapid battery recharging routes, great.
I hope I'm wrong, though. I'm all for an effective electric fleet (and without human drivers, please).

SFBadger96

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #883 on: April 10, 2019, 03:15:22 PM »
Hydrogen is most often derived from natural gas, leaving carbon as the residue.  It's more energy efficient than electrolysis of water.  It's still highly energy intensive, and the product has to be cooled which is even more energy intensive.
I get that. How does its efficiency compare to the internal combustion engine. I understand it is still favorable, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #884 on: April 10, 2019, 03:15:29 PM »
Tesla, and Musk, have been know at times to make statements and promises that later turned out to be fairy dust.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #885 on: April 10, 2019, 03:18:59 PM »
Efficiency measured how?  The efficiency of a fuel cell is very high compared to any heat engine.  It's a chemical reaction.  

The efficiency of the entire chain required for them is another story.  You can take natural gas and burned it in say a turbine at reasonable efficiencies and generate electricity that is delivered over the wires pretty efficiently.

Or, you can crack the NG into hydrogen and coal, which is "efficient" but VERY energy intensive, and then take the hydrogen and cool it to 10 Kelvin, which is efficient but VERY energy intensive, and then ship it somehow to a distribution outlet.

The energy required overall to propel a vehicle is less for battery system, by a lot.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #886 on: April 10, 2019, 03:19:56 PM »
Tesla, and Musk, have been know at times to make statements and promises that later turned out to be fairy dust.
That charge may be unfair to fairy dust. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #887 on: April 10, 2019, 03:21:32 PM »
I still don't understand how plug-in hybrid never took off. Seems like it's the absolute perfect solution.

Battery power for most of your around-town trips so that you rarely if ever have to top off the gasoline tank, but you retain every single bit of range and ease of refueling for the long haul trips.

And by reducing the battery range, you can keep the battery cost and weight down to reasonable levels. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #888 on: April 10, 2019, 03:28:30 PM »
The plug in hybrids didn't offer enough advantage over regular hybrids in most driving.  I thought the Volt was a marvel and hit a sweet spot, but obviously it was not a success in the market, perhaps in part because gas is so cheap.  I helped my kid buy a Chevy Cruze with a Diesel that gets over 60 mpg on the highway.  And a Toyota hybrid will get 45 mpg around town, easily.  The Volt was complicated and heavy, and basically required the fancy charger like an EV.  If you only drive around town, an EV is a better choice.

If you drive intercity, a hydrid or Diesel would be better I think.

An interesting use for fuel cells is "load leveling" when wind turbines generate too much power, use that power to produce hydrogen for fuel cells that operate later when the wind isn't blowing.

Article on relative efficiency of fuel cell versus a battery:

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel-cell-battery-electric-vehicles-technology-rundown/

« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 03:50:54 PM by Cincydawg »

SFBadger96

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #889 on: April 10, 2019, 04:38:53 PM »
I would have purchased a plug-in hybrid rather than the traditional hybrid, but the specs didn't work. Unfortunately, the car we were seriously considering (the Honda Clarity) has had too many reliability issues for us to be willing to spend the money on it. It helped our decision that we liked the Accord better, but we still likely would have gone for the Clarity, but for the reliability problems. And yeah, I get around 48 MPG in my Accord hybrid.

CD: the vehicle miles traveled is the key metric for the efficiency question, i.e., what is the total energy consumption--and total carbon emissions--per mile. My understanding is that even with all its inefficiencies, hydrogen fuel cells still beat internal combustion by a comfortable margin, but perhaps not.

Battery technology has certainly improved a great deal, but (again, my lay person's understanding) physics present serious limitations on further massive gains.

MichiFan87

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #890 on: April 10, 2019, 05:32:47 PM »
Hydrogen from gas is not cost-effective (nor does it make any sense), but as more renewables are deployed, hydrogen production is an alternative to deploying energy storage to prevent wind and solar from being curtailed during periods of excess generation (eg. early afternoon for solar, middle of the night for wind), which would also make hydrogen much more cost-effective. This is already done in Germany.

I may have mentioned this before, but the big opportunity to me for hydrogen is in heating. There's also a push for electrification of HVAC and appliances that are often run on gas (stoves, ovens, etc.), such as some new construction residential developments in California which opted not to include any gas lines, but hydrogen can be mixed with natural gas and eventually gas utilities could theoretically just use hydrogen if it becomes cost-effective and/or legislation requires it. Australia and the UK are already testing this out.

Despite the on-going attempts by Tesla and a few other companies, I don't see electrification of long-distance freight as viable (but for school buses, city buses, mail trucks, maintenance vehicles, and the like, it should be over time.... I just saw today that there's even a company retrofitting small seaplanes to be electric-powered, and it's cost-effective), but whether hydrogen beats out compressed natural gas or not for long-distance transportation is up for debate.

That said, the energy density of batteries is continuing to improve, so there may be more uses for them than previously thought as that continues to improve.
“When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing”
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #891 on: April 10, 2019, 06:16:43 PM »
Well, hydrogen has to be made from something.  Those chemical bonds take energy to break, it's inherent.

The simple cycle is water electrolysis as you remake water when you get the energy back out of course, water in, water out, and a lot of energy in between, both input and output.

And we already have the electricity infrastructure obviously.  It's hard to beat something that already is paid for.  We'd need more generating capability of course if we go to EVs on a large scale, it's a pretty sig percentage.

CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #892 on: April 10, 2019, 06:45:17 PM »
I hope you guys in the path of the "historic" bizzard that is supposed to hit the north-central plains Friday are getting ready to batten down the hatches.
Play Like a Champion Today

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #893 on: April 10, 2019, 06:59:07 PM »
Yeah, I read about that.  The wife was complaining that I was stinky on the elevator after our walk.  It was 80°F here.  Thank goodness for air conditioning.

I remember as a kid asking folks how AC worked and nobody could tell me, not even my teachers.  I wish I had had the Internet back then.


Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #894 on: April 10, 2019, 07:05:04 PM »
Nice video in this link I posted before if you're interested in comparing fuel cells and batteries.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/11/hydrogen-fuel-cell-battery-electric-vehicles-technology-rundown/

It talks about efficiencies.

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #895 on: April 10, 2019, 09:52:00 PM »
I hope you guys in the path of the "historic" bizzard that is supposed to hit the north-central plains Friday are getting ready to batten down the hatches.
I'm a few miles south and east of the blizzard line
thankfully
I-29 from Sioux City north is closed
this happens in April from time to time
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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