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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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ELA

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #182 on: January 17, 2018, 08:47:11 AM »
Meteor over Detroit metro last night registered as a 2.0, and lit up the sky.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/rare-meteor-credited-bright-light-rattling-noise-over-michigan-n838311
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MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #183 on: January 17, 2018, 09:25:39 AM »
The one meteorologist said the mercury over Cleveland registered 0 last nite.Getting up to 21 today - good times starting to climb out of the Artic Vortex
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 09:30:44 AM by MrNubbz »
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FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #184 on: January 17, 2018, 09:58:11 AM »
warming up in Iowa 
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #185 on: January 17, 2018, 06:48:23 PM »
We registered a balmy 1 degree Fahrenheit in Tulsa early this morning.  Warmed up to a sizzling high of 30.
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #186 on: January 17, 2018, 07:05:56 PM »
Quote
Cincydawg:

Well, I strongly disagree.  Nothing inside a greenhouse generates any heat.  Same with your car.  The glass traps heat inside because it is preventing IR from radiating outward.

Strongly disagree.
If nothing inside the greenhouse were generating any heat, then there would be no heat to trap.  Same with my car.  In the greenhouse, the ground and other solid objects inside are being heated by solar radiation and re-radiating IR as heat.  In my car, it's the materials of the interior.

The point is that it's the mechanical action of the glass keeping the warmed air from escaping via convection--not the IR-blocking action of the glass--that is largely responsible for keeping the heat inside the greenhouse.

There is not much of an analogy to that in the atmosphere.  But linear terrain features like mountain ranges can prevent heat-transfer via convection, which is somewhat analogous to the walls of the greenhouse.  Of course, the greenhouse has a ceiling too.  A temperature inversion can work like one in the  natural world.

At least according to Col. John H. Grubbs, Ph.D.
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CousinFreddie

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #187 on: January 17, 2018, 07:56:58 PM »
If you look about halfway down this wiki page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect

You'll see the talk about real greenhouses and how they work. 

I don't think anyone is confused on this issue.  The greenhouse effect has always been analogy, not a literal description of the process.  It's just the idea that some gases absorb heat and thus stop IR from radiating away, and if we put a higher concentration of those gases in the troposphere, we'll retain more heat in the troposphere.  Pretty basic physics. 

Clouds do this too (where the main gas in this case is water vapor).  Anyone who has been in the desert at night knows how cold it can get on a clear night, as there's nothing to keep the IR close to the surface of the earth. 

There's nothing magic or mysterious or contentious about this.  It's just how it works.
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #188 on: January 17, 2018, 08:25:53 PM »
Exactly.

Per the article on the Font of All Wisdom and Knowledge: "'Greenhouse effect' is actually a misnomer since heating in the usual greenhouse is due to the reduction of convection,[32] while the "greenhouse effect" works by preventing absorbed heat from leaving the structure through radiative transfer."

As I said in my original post on this thread, "greenhouse effect" is a misnomer, but we live with many other misnomers, so it doesn't really matter.
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CousinFreddie

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #189 on: January 17, 2018, 08:42:24 PM »
You mean like "Big Game Bob" :o
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #190 on: January 17, 2018, 11:13:53 PM »
Quote from: CousinFreddie on January 17, 2018, 08:42:24 PM
You mean like "Big Game Bob" :o
Hmmmm.
I was thinking more like ".44 Magnum," which describes a handgun round with a bullet diameter of .429.
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MarqHusker

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #191 on: January 17, 2018, 11:41:34 PM »
And the 2 X 4, which is really 1.5 x 3.5
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CousinFreddie

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #192 on: January 18, 2018, 03:52:27 AM »
And describing emotional states as “matters of the heart”, when the heart is just a muscle in your chest, and emotions etc actually reside in the brain.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #193 on: January 18, 2018, 08:11:27 AM »
Glass inhibits radiative reemission of heat.  So does CO2.  Same mechanism.  

While nothing inside the greenhouse generates heat, the light from the sun obviously does, same with your static car.

This is more than just trapping heat by a simple barrier.  It reduces heat radiation while allowing the light to enter.  Light hits something and it absorbed and that is reradiated as IR (heat radiation).

I see it as a very close analogy.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #194 on: January 18, 2018, 08:15:19 AM »
https://climatekids.nasa.gov/greenhouse-effect/

https://www.readingma.gov/climate-advisory-committee/faq/what-are-the-greenhouse-effect-and-greenhouse-gases

http://berkeleysciencereview.com/greenhouse-gases-versus-glass-greenhouses/

The last citation, which is probably most authoritative, is in disagreement with my contentions here, so perhaps I am wrong, learn something every few years.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #195 on: January 18, 2018, 08:17:06 AM »
" Robert W. Wood’s experiment was unreplicated until 2009, when Stanford Professor Vaughan R. Pratt put it to the test using very thorough internal controls and modern technology. Dr. Pratt failed to reproduce Wood’s work: he found that the box with the glass cover (greenhouse analog that trapped infrared light) was several degrees warmer than the one with the salt lid (the one that did not block any infrared light). Specifically, Pratt observed that the glass box, or greenhouse simulator, was between 1 to 6 °C (1.8 to 10.8°F) hotter than the box with the salt cover, depending on the placement of the thermometers within the box. Thus, in contrast to Wood, Professor Pratt did demonstrate that there is a small contribution from trapped infrared light even in physical greenhouses."

On the other hand, this is from that last citation.  This should be simple stuff really.
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