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Topic: QB with the most help around him

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2020, 10:53:10 AM »
This exercise is silly. More intersting would be someone who was good with bad receivers and tailbacks. Find me those guys.
That's someone like Drew Brees. 

Top receivers in 2000, his Rose Bowl year:




Top rushers in 2000:




Of those receivers, I think Vinny sniffed the NFL as a kick returner for a little while, and Stratton was pretty good (won the TE award that year). 

What really helped Brees, of course, was his OL. He actually had a legit OL blocking for him. 

But I'd say he's a good example of a QB who elevated the team around him, rather than someone who just managed to not wrap his Ferrari around a tree. 

CWSooner

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2020, 11:02:28 AM »
As a Gator, I was scared to death of Gresham dominating that game.  He was productive, but didn't go ballistic.
Future Indiana Hoosier HFC Kevin "Hack" Wilson, OU's OC at the time, didn't call Gresham's number much.
That was a frustrating game for Sooner fans.  Coming up scoreless on two goal-to-go situations.  The defense played its best game of the year, only to have the mighty offense fall flat on its face.  Of course, the Gator D had something to do with it.
Here's a play on OU's opening possession that set the tone.


https://youtu.be/yuG3uM0RwLA

Today that would be targeting.  Even then it should have been pass interference.  But no flag.  That's sort of how the game played out.
It's funny.  The announcers celebrate the big hit and fail to even notice that the defender got there before the ball did.  11 years later, they'd be worrying about injury, concussion, brain damage.
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Mdot21

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2020, 11:11:11 AM »
This is OT, but I don't care - what was the difference between Chris Perry and Mike Hart?  In my mind, without checking, they were both 3 or 4-year starters who were productive and relatively slow.  But they got you those 4 yards every carry and UM rode them into the ground.  What distinguishes them?
Chris Perry was a 6’+, 230 pounds who ran legitimately in the 4.5’s. Perry was a bruising power back who had the ability to hit the home run as well. 

Mike Hart was 5’8, 190 pounds soaking wet, ran 4.75 on a good day. He was extremely tough for his size, but he couldn’t bully defenders the way Perry did at times, and Hart didn’t have the home run speed. Perry could hit that top gear and break a 50 or 60 yard TD. Hart just couldn’t do that- he was quick in a phone booth but his top end speed was terrible. He’d get caught from behind all the time. If he had that home run speed he’d have been a college all time great- not just a Michigan all-time great. 

CWSooner

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2020, 11:18:30 AM »
I mean, he had two 1,000-yards backs and the best tight end in the country. I guess I'm playing the game wrong.

So is Jack Mildren a guy to name? Ran for nearly 1,300 yards and posted a 199.5 passer rating (on 5.6 passes a game).
Sam Bradford definitely had talent around him.  I didn't mean to go down a rabbit hole about whether or not Murray and Brown were "dominant" RBs.
Jack Mildren (in 1971) was an interesting case.  He basically had one WR, his HS teammate Jon Harrison who was effective because defenders were concentrating on stopping the triple-optoin.  And his stable of ball-carriers included Greg Pruitt, and some "good" guys: Joe Wylie, Roy Bell, and FB Leon Crosswhite.  I'd say that Mildren made that offense go as opposed to being a guy who benefited from great help around him.  The offense took a step backward without him in 1972, even though the surrounding cast was better. Joe Washington played a lot as a freshman, Freshman Tinker Owens replaced (and was better than) Harrison.  But Mildren made his bones running the triple-option, not by passing the ball, high passer rating notwithstanding.
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FearlessF

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2020, 01:52:28 PM »
I think assigning credit on a football team is still in the stone ages. 
Like for a QB, how much does a great RB affect his production?  Or a good WR?  A good OL? 
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Good point about '83 UNL.
81, 82, 83 UNL

only one great WR, but everywhere else the offense was loaded
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rolltidefan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2020, 02:52:50 PM »
Ugh, shit.
Nick Saban has won 5 and may win 6 national championships with these QBs.  That's disgusting. 
i mean, those qb's aren't chopped liver.

mac is legit breaking records against an all sec schedule. sure, he's got an all american rb/wr/oline, but it's virtually the same players tua had (except mac doesn't have 2 first rd wrs, really 3 with waddle out most of year) and no one bats an eye if you say tua is phenomenal. mac is an elite college qb and should go down as one of the all time greats.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2020, 06:24:27 PM »
But I'd argue that list is chopped liver, considering the records of the teams they led.  Aside from McCarron's last 2 years, Tua, and Jones this year, those others were certainly the weakest links of their teams.  
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It's a tribute to Saban and the roster as a whole to be having this convo.  And I just picked recent Bama because they're fresh in all our minds.  
An easy way to see if Saban trusts his QB is by how many passing TDs he gets - trusting the QB to not turn the ball over in the red zone.  McCarron wasn't appreciably better in '12 or '13, but Saban trusted him a lot more (half as many passing TD in '11).  This all assumes that Bama has 1-2 NFL RBs that can safely punch it in behind a great OL.

“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

CWSooner

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2020, 06:42:48 PM »
OAM, could you make the case that Jalen Hurts was the weak link when he was starting at Bama?
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2020, 07:08:27 PM »
Sure, it's why he transferred - his limited passing ability.
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Hurts is a case where he saddled the most responsibility in an environment that would have been more productive for him to be a quality distributor.  Sort of like he played point guard like Allen Iverson, despite having Larry Bird camped out at the 3-point line and James Worthy slashing towards the hoop.  He's taking too many shots in that situation.
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Hurts was a poorer passer than both is predecessor and successor.  He was a good runner for a QB, but his yards per carry was worse than his RBs.  Now, that's usually true because sacks are counted in, but still.  In '16, his RBs averaged almost 2 yards per carry more than he did.  So having a good running QB is an additional attribute can be a good thing, it isn't if he's less productive than the alternative*. 
To his credit, he did improve as a passer in '17, but was night-and-day from being as good as Tua.
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Again, this discussion isn't to talk badly about anyone.  Hurts started at QB for great Alabama teams and was a good player.  But he was surrounded by elite talent.  The more of the load he shouldered, I fear it was at the expense of more production by his teammates.
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*if your mind invariably jumps to Tebow, he was Florida's designated 3rd & 1, 4th & 1, and goal-to-go ball carrier.  This is evidenced by the rushing TDs, you can look up yourself
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MarqHusker

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2020, 07:12:14 PM »
Let's talk Jay Barker.   Yes, probably best D since platoon.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2020, 07:15:52 PM »
Jay Barker improved a ton from '92-'94.  And he probably had the worst passing stats for a national champion (non-option QB) ever.  Good call.
They had to get David Palmer to take snaps in key situations to video game (ie - manufacture) first downs and touchdowns at some points.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

rolltidefan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2020, 08:36:30 PM »
But I'd argue that list is chopped liver, considering the records of the teams they led.  Aside from McCarron's last 2 years, Tua, and Jones this year, those others were certainly the weakest links of their teams. 



mccarron and hurts/tua account for 3 of those 5, and if bama wins this year mac will make it 4 of the 6. mac, tua and maybe/probably(?) mccarron are cfb hall of famers. so 3 of 8 are cfb hof and it's disgusting/surprising they have 3 titles (maybe 4) between them?

hurts was sec poty and first team all sec one year. finished 2nd in the heisman his sr year at ou. hardly sounds like weak link. and i wouldn't consider sims and coker weak links either. maybe gmac and probably jpw though.

i'm not saying these players are god's gift to football (maybe?:)) but it shouldn't be remotely shocking that they could/did win a title(s).

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2020, 09:44:20 PM »
Hmm, maybe name a QB who has gotten a lot of playing time that wouldn't have led Bama to NCs (or close) given those teammates?  How bad would a QB have to be to wreck those years?

.

And listing Hurts' accolades is sort of why I started this thread.  He got a lot of credit for his driving well in a Ferrari.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 09:50:29 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: QB with the most help around him
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2020, 09:57:44 PM »
Coker got to hand the ball off to Derrick Henry 395 times in 2015.  I think one of us could've done pretty well on that team.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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