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Topic: QB with the most help around him
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bayareabadger · « **Reply #56 on:** December 31, 2020, 09:15:01 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 31, 2020, 01:20:37 AM

But while Ward's 93 season was great, how many others could have gone 12-1 with the #1 defense and a RB averaging 6.2 ypc? A handful? A lot? Most? Somewhere in there.
Maybe not as many as I thought. 1993 wasn't exactly a banner year for QBs. And Ward did have a unique skill set - it's not often a QB rushes for 5.2 ypc on draws and scrambles only. Add to that his low INT% and I'd only be confident 2 others could plug-n-play, surrounded by FSU's substantial support: VT's Maurice DeShazo and UT's Heath Shuler.

So the exercise is interesting because it seems to center on some degree of replaceability. Is situation X so good that any ole bag of meat could pull it off? And in truth, most QBs are bad. Well, good relative to most, bad relative to college. I chatted with a former so-so college QB a few years back, and he said "Here's the thing. Most of us are distributors." That's football. Your QB is mostly a machine to hand off at greater distances most efficiently.

Now I get the game is to a degree a process of tearing down. But this is a sport of great teams. The best teams have the talent everywhere, and that muscle is best flexed everywhere but QB (more rotation, less emphasis on a singular person). If we want QBs that ascend past their station, we're gonna be looking at 4-loss P5 teams or great G5 teams (which are torn down for the other reason).

The FSU case on the wins front can probably be made by the fact Danny Kanell won 10 games twice as a starter. Put Brees in there, Zach Wilson, it probably gets a little better, but it's CFB. It always can be a little better. Everything is interconnected. Kyle Trask was awful without his top talent. Ward's mobility and passing probably made life easier on the tailbacks. They work in concert.

Since some of the root of it is Mac Jones, I'll say this. I give a guy credit for doing the damn thing. Like, you get all those pieces, you go throw up the stats of a transcendent player. Most don't.

MrNubbz · « **Reply #57 on:** December 31, 2020, 10:18:31 AM »

2016,JT Barret was surrounded with talent WRs Terry McClaurin,Parris Campell were 4.3 guys and Noah Brown got drafted also.Course JT was inconsistent in getting the on time & target but was decent running it.By no means a Hurts or Braxton Miller.O.L. had Jamarco Jones,Isiah Prince,Billy Price,Pat Elflein all NFL guys.RB Curtis Samuel & Mike Webber went Sundays also.And Joe Burrow & Dwayne Haskins backing JT (for what ever reason)

rolltidefan · « **Reply #58 on:** December 31, 2020, 11:04:30 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 31, 2020, 01:22:04 AM

Guys, I'm just being nerdy here. The season is almost over and having the discussion is fun for me. I'm not here for subjectively to come wreck the whole thing - I hate that shit. If we're talking about an 8 -year stretch of your team's old QBs and it irks you, please accept this invitation to piss off.

Just enjoy the discussing or move on, please.

rolltidefan · « **Reply #59 on:** December 31, 2020, 11:18:41 AM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on December 31, 2020, 09:15:01 AM

So the exercise is interesting because it seems to center on some degree of replaceability. Is situation X so good that any ole bag of meat could pull it off? And in truth, most QBs are bad. Well, good relative to most, bad relative to college. I chatted with a former so-so college QB a few years back, and he said "Here's the thing. Most of us are distributors." That's football. Your QB is mostly a machine to hand off at greater distances most efficiently.

Now I get the game is to a degree a process of tearing down. But this is a sport of great teams. The best teams have the talent everywhere, and that muscle is best flexed everywhere but QB (more rotation, less emphasis on a singular person). If we want QBs that ascend past their station, we're gonna be looking at 4-loss P5 teams or great G5 teams (which are torn down for the other reason).

The FSU case on the wins front can probably be made by the fact Danny Kanell won 10 games twice as a starter. Put Brees in there, Zach Wilson, it probably gets a little better, but it's CFB. It always can be a little better. Everything is interconnected. Kyle Trask was awful without his top talent. Ward's mobility and passing probably made life easier on the tailbacks. They work in concert.

Since some of the root of it is Mac Jones, I'll say this. I give a guy credit for doing the damn thing. Like, you get all those pieces, you go throw up the stats of a transcendent player. Most don't.

i agree with most of this, i think. i don't agree with the bold part. not inherently, anyway. if a qb is good at getting out of bad plays and into good ones and distributing the ball, that's one hell of a good qb. even if they aren't an exceptional athlete. peyton manning for example. dude was most awkward athlete i've ever been around (been to some of his qb camps) or seen. but he had the knack for getting his teams out of bad plays and into good ones, and delivering the ball where it needed to be and when it needed to be there. and it was rarely ever a pretty pass or scramble, etc. but he got it done and was one of the best ever at doing so.

as for trask and mac, take away mac's top 4 receivers a couple days before a game vs a really good opp and he'll look just as crappy. an oline doesn't look good with a qb that holds onto the ball too long. wr's don't look good with qb's that can't hit them. rb's look bad with oline that can't open holes. qb's look bad with wr that don't get open or oline that doesn't give them time. you said it best, it's all in tandem. and if you're missing 1 or 2 pieces, it can still be a great offense, but when you have them all together, the offense can become historic. OC plays a big role too. and rules (currently big favor to offenses), styles of play, etc. it's a golden age for offenses right now, and we're seeing it with new records being set every year. but it still takes top talent to create those records.

bayareabadger · « **Reply #60 on:** December 31, 2020, 02:46:05 PM »

Quote from: rolltidefan on December 31, 2020, 11:18:41 AM

i agree with most of this, i think. i don't agree with the bold part. not inherently, anyway. if a qb is good at getting out of bad plays and into good ones and distributing the ball, that's one hell of a good qb. even if they aren't an exceptional athlete. peyton manning for example. dude was most awkward athlete i've ever been around (been to some of his qb camps) or seen. but he had the knack for getting his teams out of bad plays and into good ones, and delivering the ball where it needed to be and when it needed to be there. and it was rarely ever a pretty pass or scramble, etc. but he got it done and was one of the best ever at doing so.

as for trask and mac, take away mac's top 4 receivers a couple days before a game vs a really good opp and he'll look just as crappy. an oline doesn't look good with a qb that holds onto the ball too long. wr's don't look good with qb's that can't hit them. rb's look bad with oline that can't open holes. qb's look bad with wr that don't get open or oline that doesn't give them time. you said it best, it's all in tandem. and if you're missing 1 or 2 pieces, it can still be a great offense, but when you have them all together, the offense can become historic. OC plays a big role too. and rules (currently big favor to offenses), styles of play, etc. it's a golden age for offenses right now, and we're seeing it with new records being set every year. but it still takes top talent to create those records.

When I say most are bad, I mean in the grand scheme. Like, let suppose OAM is to a degree right. If I put 70% of the quarterbacks who are on scholarship on FBS rosters in that office, we would still say, that doesn’t look very good. That’s just the nature of it. There aren’t that many good quarterbacks alive and walking around on this planet.

rolltidefan · « **Reply #61 on:** December 31, 2020, 04:03:38 PM »

I could buy that

Mdot21 · « **Reply #62 on:** December 31, 2020, 06:28:21 PM »

Honestly this is a dumb question.

Most great QBs have a lot of help around them.

Peyton Manning is one of the greatest of all-time in the NFL, and he played on a basically all-star offense in Indianapolis. There was a period of time for 4-5 years when Edgerin James was THE best RB in the NFL. Not one of the best. THE best. Marvin Harrison is a top 3 WR of the entire 2000s- really only Moss and TO could legitimately be ranked above him. Dallas Clark was a 1st RD pick and one of the better TE’s in the league for a lot of years. Reggie Wayne is arguably the best Robin/#2 WR there has ever been and his numbers say he’s a borderline HoF. I don’t think he’s HoF, but you could make a case for him. These guys all played together. At the same time.

What great QB doesn’t have a ton of talent around him? Honestly Marino and Brady are the only ones I’m coming up with. Marino had the Marks brothers but they were midgets. I think he made them more than they made him. Obviously. Brady had Moss for all of two minutes, and while had Gronk for a long time- it was a TE not WR- and Gronk was hurt about half his time in NE. He wasn’t ever consistently healthy, he missed huge chunks of almost every season or post-season he played.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #63 on:** December 31, 2020, 07:27:00 PM »

What's been ignored here are the great players without much around them. Elway at Stanford. Brees was mentioned. Marino split time in 2 of his 4 years at Pitt (unless it wan an injury issue, I'm not old enough to know). He had a great defense his whole career, but what else?
There are dozens of other great QBs with poor supporting casts.....yet if you look at the all-time career pass rating rankings, all of the P5 guys are from elite programs: Bama, OU, OSU, LSU, Oregon, Florida....before we get to Sam Howell of UNC.
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Separately, I was mulling this over again, and we award the Heisman to the QB with the team having the best season. Most often, that includes a bunch of blowouts (that yes, the QB helped create), but that means a lot of stress-free football. I bet if you broke down each Heisman winner's season into "quarters in doubt" - where the outcome of the game was in doubt at the end of each quarter, many would score lower than 10. Meanwhile, there are QBs having great seasons on teams with no OL or running game or poor defenses going 7-5 and over half their quarters are in doubt (24+) that don't get a vote.
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On another aside, just to show how much college football has changed, Ty Detmer had a career pass rating of 162.7 and Jalen Hurts' was 162.6. One was a Heisman winner and a legend and the other was replaced for a much better passer.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #64 on:** December 31, 2020, 08:04:28 PM »

Robert Griffin III was an example of a QB without much around him. Baylor sucked before he took the reigns. In his Heisman season, the defense gave up 37 points per game. He HAD to play great or they'd lose. Their recruiting was 9th-10th in the Big XII the year before Griffin signed, the year he signed, and the year after.

He was the reason they were good. I'd be willing to bet HE is the reason their RB averaged 6.2 ypc or that 2 of his WRs got some publicity. Most of his season, the outcome of each game was in doubt.
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It's not that other Heisman winners didn't earn their awards, but I'm especially confident Griffin earned his.

CWSooner · « **Reply #65 on:** January 01, 2021, 01:50:51 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 31, 2020, 07:27:00 PM

What's been ignored here are the great players without much around them. Elway at Stanford. Brees was mentioned. Marino split time in 2 of his 4 years at Pitt (unless it wan an injury issue, I'm not old enough to know). He had a great defense his whole career, but what else?
There are dozens of other great QBs with poor supporting casts.....yet if you look at the all-time career pass rating rankings, all of the P5 guys are from elite programs: Bama, OU, OSU, LSU, Oregon, Florida....before we get to Sam Howell of UNC.
.
Separately, I was mulling this over again, and we award the Heisman to the QB with the team having the best season. Most often, that includes a bunch of blowouts (that yes, the QB helped create), but that means a lot of stress-free football. I bet if you broke down each Heisman winner's season into "quarters in doubt" - where the outcome of the game was in doubt at the end of each quarter, many would score lower than 10. Meanwhile, there are QBs having great seasons on teams with no OL or running game or poor defenses going 7-5 and over half their quarters are in doubt (24+) that don't get a vote.
.
On another aside, just to show how much college football has changed, Ty Detmer had a career pass rating of 162.7 and Jalen Hurts' was 162.6. One was a Heisman winner and a legend and the other was replaced for a much better passer.

FWIW, Hurts' passer rating his senior year was 191.2.

CWSooner · « **Reply #66 on:** January 01, 2021, 01:51:27 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 31, 2020, 08:04:28 PM

Robert Griffin III was an example of a QB without much around him. Baylor sucked before he took the reigns. In his Heisman season, the defense gave up 37 points per game. He HAD to play great or they'd lose. Their recruiting was 9th-10th in the Big XII the year before Griffin signed, the year he signed, and the year after.

He was the reason they were good. I'd be willing to bet HE is the reason their RB averaged 6.2 ypc or that 2 of his WRs got some publicity. Most of his season, the outcome of each game was in doubt.
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It's not that other Heisman winners didn't earn their awards, but I'm especially confident Griffin earned his.

RGIII is a good example of the opposite of the model you built in your OP.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #67 on:** January 01, 2021, 06:06:17 AM »

Right. But everyone shits on whatever I post, so I'm just having a full-circle convo, hoping enough people will stay on-topic enough for it to be fleshed out. Many here aren't interested in contributing to the discussion, and that's fine.
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It is interesting to me that the Heisman has probably been awarded dozens of times to a QB who was not at risk of losing 80%+ of the time.
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When it comes to Hurts' year at OU, that's where coaching/system comes in, right?

CWSooner · « **Reply #68 on:** January 01, 2021, 10:43:33 AM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on January 01, 2021, 06:06:17 AM

Right. But everyone shits on whatever I post, so I'm just having a full-circle convo, hoping enough people will stay on-topic enough for it to be fleshed out. Many here aren't interested in contributing to the discussion, and that's fine.
.
It is interesting to me that the Heisman has probably been awarded dozens of times to a QB who was not at risk of losing 80%+ of the time.
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When it comes to Hurts' year at OU, that's where coaching/system comes in, right?

Yeah. I wasn't using RGIII to rebut your premise, just agreeing with you that he is a guy who was NOT carried by the rest of the team.
And, yes, I suspect that coaching and offensive system had something to do with Hurt's improvement his senior year. He's showing that he can be a serviceable NFL QB under the right circumstances, which is more than many highly touted college QBs ever do, but he's not going to carry a team with his brilliant passing skills.

MrNubbz · « **Reply #69 on:** January 01, 2021, 11:19:36 AM »

He still has arm strength so DBs have to respect the long ball

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Topic: QB with the most help around him

bayareabadger

Re: QB with the most help around him

MrNubbz

Re: QB with the most help around him

rolltidefan

Re: QB with the most help around him

rolltidefan

Re: QB with the most help around him

bayareabadger

Re: QB with the most help around him

rolltidefan

Re: QB with the most help around him

Mdot21

Re: QB with the most help around him

OrangeAfroMan

Re: QB with the most help around him

OrangeAfroMan

Re: QB with the most help around him

CWSooner

Re: QB with the most help around him

CWSooner

Re: QB with the most help around him

OrangeAfroMan

Re: QB with the most help around him

CWSooner

Re: QB with the most help around him

MrNubbz

Re: QB with the most help around him