CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on December 29, 2020, 10:47:49 PM
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It's been mentioned here about how much credit goes to the QB (with the Heisman vote), but how certain QBs on certain teams have all the support in the world around them.
I brought up how Mac Jones is protected by NFL linemen, hands off to an NFL RB, and throws to an NFL WR. The classic example of this kind of QB is Ken Dorsey of Miami (2000-01).
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This isn't dragging any of these guys down, they're all good and earned the spots they ended up in.
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During the Cheez-It Bowl, the announcer mentioned how Mike Gundy still has some OKie State records. And I thought, well yeah, look at that offense. He was handing off to Barry Sanders! And he was throwing to OK State's best WR ever in Hart Lee Dykes! That's pretty nice, isn't it?
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What are some other QBs who basically sat in a Ferrari every Saturday?
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Sam Bradford had some pretty good WRs to throw to in 2008.
No dominant RB though.
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Most of the good ones?
All the good Gator ones (and some of the bad ones).
Most of the good Bama ones.
Most of the good Clemson ones
Just about all the good OSU ones
The Michigan ones when Michigan was good
The good USC quarterbacks
It was more of a nice CRV, but John Stocco as a junior.
This exercise is silly. More intersting would be someone who was good with bad receivers and tailbacks. Find me those guys.
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Sam Bradford had some pretty good WRs to throw to in 2008.
No dominant RB though.
He had 2 RBs rush for over 1,000 yards that season.
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Most of the good ones?
All the good Gator ones (and some of the bad ones).
Most of the good Bama ones.
Most of the good Clemson ones
Just about all the good OSU ones
The Michigan ones when Michigan was good
The good USC quarterbacks
It was more of a nice CRV, but John Stocco as a junior.
This exercise is silly. More intersting would be someone who was good with bad receivers and tailbacks. Find me those guys.
All the good Hoosier ones (and some of the bad ones).
Most of the good Vandy ones.
Most of the good Duke ones
Just about all the good Oregon State ones
The Stanford ones when Stanford was good
The WF quarterbacks
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This exercise is silly.
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John Navarre’s senior year he was throwing to Braylon Edwards (Top 5 NFL Draft pick), Jason Avant (3rd Rd) and Steve Breaston (4th Rd), handing it off to Chris Perry (1st round NFL RB), and being protected by an OL that had a couple NFL draft picks.
Braylon had so much talent, he should’ve had a way better NFL career but he was a headcase with a drinking problem. Chris Perry’s body just completely fell apart in the NFL. I don’t think he was ever healthy. He had injury after injury.
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Sam Bradford had some pretty good WRs to throw to in 2008.
No dominant RB though.
Did have an NFL rushing champ and another NFL back, and interestingly no next-level WR talent. Good TE though.
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bayarea, simply don't partake in the thread. It's like you're against gay marriage - something that has nothing to do with you. This thread, we've learned, has nothing to do with you.
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John Navarre’s senior year he was throwing to Braylon Edwards (Top 5 NFL Draft pick), Jason Avant (3rd Rd) and Steve Breaston (4th Rd), handing it off to Chris Perry (1st round NFL RB), and being protected by an OL that had a couple NFL draft picks.
Braylon had so much talent, he should’ve had a way better NFL career but he was a headcase with a drinking problem. Chris Perry’s body just completely fell apart in the NFL. I don’t think he was ever healthy. He had injury after injury.
This is OT, but I don't care - what was the difference between Chris Perry and Mike Hart? In my mind, without checking, they were both 3 or 4-year starters who were productive and relatively slow. But they got you those 4 yards every carry and UM rode them into the ground. What distinguishes them?
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Well, pick a Miami QB from 86-92. Testaverde, Walsh, Erickson, Toretta.
Matt Leinart was another one. Probably a lot of FSU’s QBs during their great run from 87-2000. Ward, Kanell, Wills, Weinke. Every Bama QB since Saban has been the there.
Ohio St and UGA QBs the last few years. Not that any of these guys weren’t good players in their own right but they were all surrounded by talent everywhere.
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Related to this thread was successful RBs who weren't ballyhooed. Namely Brent Fullwood. No, he wasn't Bo Jackson, physically. But he had a better career yards per carry than Bo did. He was a first-round pick, but didn't do much in the NFL.
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It just makes me think that maybe that Auburn OL was underrated.
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Who was the one other than DeMarco Murray?
Never mind. Chris Brown. I thought he might be the one, but I didn't remember that he had more yards than Murray did.
1220 to 1002.
Two very good backs.
But I was thinking "dominant" in the way the guy OAM mentioned in the OP--Barry Sanders--was dominant. So no Adrian Peterson, Billy Sims, Steve Owens, Greg Pruitt, Joe Washington types.
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All the good Hoosier ones (and some of the bad ones).
Most of the good Vandy ones.
Most of the good Duke ones
Just about all the good Oregon State ones
The Stanford ones when Stanford was good
The WF quarterbacks
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This exercise is silly.
Are there good Hoosier QBs?
Also, if you're building a game about CFB, remembering some of the good west coast skill guys might be good. Stepfan Taylor, Toby Gerhart, Tyler Gaffney, Whiteside, Montgomery, Coby Fleener, Ertz,Jacquizz Rodgers, Yvenson Bernard, Steven Jackson, Mike Hass, Brandin Cooks, James Rodgers. They made some dudes look good.
For the original game, does Tebow count? He had Rainey, Demps, Harvin, Murphy, Hernandez, Cooper.
Trask had Pitts and Toney, plus the other kid who skipped the bowl
Trevor Lawrence had Travis Etienne, Tee Higgins, Ross, Rogers
That whole crew around Danny Wuerffel
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Did have an NFL rushing champ and another NFL back, and interestingly no next-level WR talent. Good TE though.
Ryan Broyles played 3 years with the Lions.
Juaquin Iglesias and Manny Johnson were very nice college WRs.
Yes, Jermaine Gresham was a good TE. He had a 9-year career in the NFL.
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Well, pick a Miami QB from 86-92. Testaverde, Walsh, Erickson, Toretta.
Matt Leinart was another one. Probably a lot of FSU’s QBs during their great run from 87-2000. Ward, Kanell, Wills, Weinke. Every Bama QB since Saban has been the there.
Ohio St and UGA QBs the last few years. Not that any of these guys weren’t good players in their own right but they were all surrounded by talent everywhere.
Okay, so this would make me want to rank each school's QBs in terms of perceived talent. I'll just take Bama QBs under Saban. They've all been blessed with great defenses, great college RBs, great everything, as you've noted. Here they are:
07, 08 - John Parker Wilson
09, 10 - Greg McElroy
11-13 - AJ McCarron
14 - Blake Sims
15 - Jake Coker
16, 17 - Jalen Hurts
18, 19 - Tua Tagovailoa
20 - Mac Jones
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Saban obviously has changed his offensive tactics since 2018. Judging by talent and not citing stats, I'd rank them:
Tua, McCarron, Jones, Sims, Wilson, McElroy, Hurts, Coker
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I guess when I think of Dorsey on Miami - he wasn't a weak link necessarily, but he was the weakest link of the team. I don't think Tua was the weakest link of his Bama teams (injuries notwithstanding)...McCarron may have been in '11, but not after that. I think, career-wise, maybe from Sims-on (in my rankings), you could say they were all the weakest links.
So it's not 100%, but after the first couple, yeah.
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Ryan Broyles played 3 years with the Lions.
Juaquin Iglesias and Manny Johnson were very nice college WRs.
Yes, Jermaine Gresham was a good TE. He had a 9-year career in the NFL.
As a Gator, I was scared to death of Gresham dominating that game. He was productive, but didn't go ballistic.
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Who was the one other than DeMarco Murray?
Never mind. Chris Brown. I thought he might be the one, but I didn't remember that he had more yards than Murray did.
1220 to 1002.
Two very good backs.
But I was thinking "dominant" in the way the guy you mentioned in the OP--Barry Sanders--was dominant. So no Adrian Peterson, Billy Sims, Steve Owens, Greg Pruitt, Joe Washington types.
I mean, he had two 1,000-yards backs and the best tight end in the country. I guess I'm playing the game wrong.
So is Jack Mildren a guy to name? Ran for nearly 1,300 yards and posted a 199.5 passer rating (on 5.6 passes a game).
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07, 08 - John Parker Wilson
09, 10 - Greg McElroy
11-13 - AJ McCarron
14 - Blake Sims
15 - Jake Coker
16, 17 - Jalen Hurts
18, 19 - Tua Tagovailoa
20 - Mac Jones
Ugh, shit.
Nick Saban has won 5 and may win 6 national championships with these QBs. That's disgusting.
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I mean, he had two 1,000-yards backs and the best tight end in the country. I guess I'm playing the game wrong.
So is Jack Mildren a guy to name? Ran for nearly 1,300 yards and posted a 199.5 passer rating (on 5.6 passes a game).
You're playing the game correctly.
Mildren's QB card makes that OU team VERY dangerous in Whoa Nellie!
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Ryan Broyles played 3 years with the Lions.
Juaquin Iglesias and Manny Johnson were very nice college WRs.
Yes, Jermaine Gresham was a good TE. He had a 9-year career in the NFL.
I suppose that was mean to Broyles, but he went from two-time All-American to 21 games in three years as a top-55 pick. Tough go.
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Well, pick a Miami QB from 86-92. Testaverde, Walsh, Erickson, Toretta.
Matt Leinart was another one. Probably a lot of FSU’s QBs during their great run from 87-2000. Ward, Kanell, Wills, Weinke. Every Bama QB since Saban has been the there.
Ohio St and UGA QBs the last few years. Not that any of these guys weren’t good players in their own right but they were all surrounded by talent everywhere.
Leinart in the year Bush and White had all the carries, sure. Great pair of WRs, too. And a great D to keep getting him the ball back. Yet Leinart is a 1st round pick, his NFL team surrounds him with little talent, and he stinks.
I feel like it's rinse, repeat with this when it comes to QBs.
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For the original game, does Tebow count? He had Rainey, Demps, Harvin, Murphy, Hernandez, Cooper.
Trask had Pitts and Toney, plus the other kid who skipped the bowl
Trevor Lawrence had Travis Etienne, Tee Higgins, Ross, Rogers
That whole crew around Danny Wuerffel
But you wouldn't put those teammates over Tebow in terms of talent, would you? Maybe Harvin.
Lawrence is surrounded by great talent, yes. And a weak-ass conference, lol.
Wuerffel had the same team around him that Terry Dean did. One got benched and never amounted to much and the other won the Heisman.
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Turner Gill.
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When I asked about when Osborne earnestly went to the option, Gill was cited by several Huskers here as the reason.
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I'm worried this thread is dwelling more on system than perceived hierarchy of talent within a roster. Idk, maybe not. What say the Sea of Red?
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When I asked about when Osborne earnestly went to the option, Gill was cited by several Huskers here as the reason.
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I'm worried this thread is dwelling more on system than perceived hierarchy of talent within a roster. Idk, maybe not. What say the Sea of Red?
Gill was a terrific college QB but the guy snapping him the ball was a 2 time Outland Trophy winner and was so good they created and named a trophy after him. He was handing to the Heisman Trophy winner and throwing to the Number 1 overall pick in the draft.
He fits the bill.
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Kerry Collins had great players all around him in 94.
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I think assigning credit on a football team is still in the stone ages.
Like for a QB, how much does a great RB affect his production? Or a good WR? A good OL?
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Good point about '83 UNL.
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Aaron Murray might qualify. He passed for over 3,000 yards in all four of his seasons, which is a something for UGA (and the SEC).
He was accurate and heady, sort of like Jake Fromm.
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This exercise is silly. More intersting would be someone who was good with bad receivers and tailbacks. Find me those guys.
That's someone like Drew Brees.
Top receivers in 2000, his Rose Bowl year:
(https://i.imgur.com/kdBGF9e.png)
Top rushers in 2000:
(https://i.imgur.com/BF6btuV.png)
Of those receivers, I think Vinny sniffed the NFL as a kick returner for a little while, and Stratton was pretty good (won the TE award that year).
What really helped Brees, of course, was his OL. He actually had a legit OL blocking for him.
But I'd say he's a good example of a QB who elevated the team around him, rather than someone who just managed to not wrap his Ferrari around a tree.
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As a Gator, I was scared to death of Gresham dominating that game. He was productive, but didn't go ballistic.
Future Indiana Hoosier HFC Kevin "Hack" Wilson, OU's OC at the time, didn't call Gresham's number much.
That was a frustrating game for Sooner fans. Coming up scoreless on two goal-to-go situations. The defense played its best game of the year, only to have the mighty offense fall flat on its face. Of course, the Gator D had something to do with it.
Here's a play on OU's opening possession that set the tone.
(https://youtu.be/yuG3uM0RwLA)https://youtu.be/yuG3uM0RwLA (https://youtu.be/yuG3uM0RwLA)
Today that would be targeting. Even then it should have been pass interference. But no flag. That's sort of how the game played out.
It's funny. The announcers celebrate the big hit and fail to even notice that the defender got there before the ball did. 11 years later, they'd be worrying about injury, concussion, brain damage.
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This is OT, but I don't care - what was the difference between Chris Perry and Mike Hart? In my mind, without checking, they were both 3 or 4-year starters who were productive and relatively slow. But they got you those 4 yards every carry and UM rode them into the ground. What distinguishes them?
Chris Perry was a 6’+, 230 pounds who ran legitimately in the 4.5’s. Perry was a bruising power back who had the ability to hit the home run as well.
Mike Hart was 5’8, 190 pounds soaking wet, ran 4.75 on a good day. He was extremely tough for his size, but he couldn’t bully defenders the way Perry did at times, and Hart didn’t have the home run speed. Perry could hit that top gear and break a 50 or 60 yard TD. Hart just couldn’t do that- he was quick in a phone booth but his top end speed was terrible. He’d get caught from behind all the time. If he had that home run speed he’d have been a college all time great- not just a Michigan all-time great.
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I mean, he had two 1,000-yards backs and the best tight end in the country. I guess I'm playing the game wrong.
So is Jack Mildren a guy to name? Ran for nearly 1,300 yards and posted a 199.5 passer rating (on 5.6 passes a game).
Sam Bradford definitely had talent around him. I didn't mean to go down a rabbit hole about whether or not Murray and Brown were "dominant" RBs.
Jack Mildren (in 1971) was an interesting case. He basically had one WR, his HS teammate Jon Harrison who was effective because defenders were concentrating on stopping the triple-optoin. And his stable of ball-carriers included Greg Pruitt, and some "good" guys: Joe Wylie, Roy Bell, and FB Leon Crosswhite. I'd say that Mildren made that offense go as opposed to being a guy who benefited from great help around him. The offense took a step backward without him in 1972, even though the surrounding cast was better. Joe Washington played a lot as a freshman, Freshman Tinker Owens replaced (and was better than) Harrison. But Mildren made his bones running the triple-option, not by passing the ball, high passer rating notwithstanding.
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I think assigning credit on a football team is still in the stone ages.
Like for a QB, how much does a great RB affect his production? Or a good WR? A good OL?
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Good point about '83 UNL.
81, 82, 83 UNL
only one great WR, but everywhere else the offense was loaded
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Ugh, shit.
Nick Saban has won 5 and may win 6 national championships with these QBs. That's disgusting.
i mean, those qb's aren't chopped liver.
mac is legit breaking records against an all sec schedule. sure, he's got an all american rb/wr/oline, but it's virtually the same players tua had (except mac doesn't have 2 first rd wrs, really 3 with waddle out most of year) and no one bats an eye if you say tua is phenomenal. mac is an elite college qb and should go down as one of the all time greats.
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But I'd argue that list is chopped liver, considering the records of the teams they led. Aside from McCarron's last 2 years, Tua, and Jones this year, those others were certainly the weakest links of their teams.
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It's a tribute to Saban and the roster as a whole to be having this convo. And I just picked recent Bama because they're fresh in all our minds.
An easy way to see if Saban trusts his QB is by how many passing TDs he gets - trusting the QB to not turn the ball over in the red zone. McCarron wasn't appreciably better in '12 or '13, but Saban trusted him a lot more (half as many passing TD in '11). This all assumes that Bama has 1-2 NFL RBs that can safely punch it in behind a great OL.
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OAM, could you make the case that Jalen Hurts was the weak link when he was starting at Bama?
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Sure, it's why he transferred - his limited passing ability.
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Hurts is a case where he saddled the most responsibility in an environment that would have been more productive for him to be a quality distributor. Sort of like he played point guard like Allen Iverson, despite having Larry Bird camped out at the 3-point line and James Worthy slashing towards the hoop. He's taking too many shots in that situation.
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Hurts was a poorer passer than both is predecessor and successor. He was a good runner for a QB, but his yards per carry was worse than his RBs. Now, that's usually true because sacks are counted in, but still. In '16, his RBs averaged almost 2 yards per carry more than he did. So having a good running QB is an additional attribute can be a good thing, it isn't if he's less productive than the alternative*.
To his credit, he did improve as a passer in '17, but was night-and-day from being as good as Tua.
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Again, this discussion isn't to talk badly about anyone. Hurts started at QB for great Alabama teams and was a good player. But he was surrounded by elite talent. The more of the load he shouldered, I fear it was at the expense of more production by his teammates.
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*if your mind invariably jumps to Tebow, he was Florida's designated 3rd & 1, 4th & 1, and goal-to-go ball carrier. This is evidenced by the rushing TDs, you can look up yourself
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Let's talk Jay Barker. Yes, probably best D since platoon.
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Jay Barker improved a ton from '92-'94. And he probably had the worst passing stats for a national champion (non-option QB) ever. Good call.
They had to get David Palmer to take snaps in key situations to video game (ie - manufacture) first downs and touchdowns at some points.
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But I'd argue that list is chopped liver, considering the records of the teams they led. Aside from McCarron's last 2 years, Tua, and Jones this year, those others were certainly the weakest links of their teams.
mccarron and hurts/tua account for 3 of those 5, and if bama wins this year mac will make it 4 of the 6. mac, tua and maybe/probably(?) mccarron are cfb hall of famers. so 3 of 8 are cfb hof and it's disgusting/surprising they have 3 titles (maybe 4) between them?
hurts was sec poty and first team all sec one year. finished 2nd in the heisman his sr year at ou. hardly sounds like weak link. and i wouldn't consider sims and coker weak links either. maybe gmac and probably jpw though.
i'm not saying these players are god's gift to football (maybe?:)) but it shouldn't be remotely shocking that they could/did win a title(s).
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Hmm, maybe name a QB who has gotten a lot of playing time that wouldn't have led Bama to NCs (or close) given those teammates? How bad would a QB have to be to wreck those years?
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And listing Hurts' accolades is sort of why I started this thread. He got a lot of credit for his driving well in a Ferrari.
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Coker got to hand the ball off to Derrick Henry 395 times in 2015. I think one of us could've done pretty well on that team.
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i'm not gonna go list 100 qb's from each season. the majority of qb's wouldn't have fared as well as hurts/sims/coker, imo.
would bama be a good team handing the ball off to henry every play? sure, probably. would they be sec/national title good? no.
but that wasn't really my point. you acted surprise that 8 qb's produced 5(6) national titles. but 3 of those qb's are hall of famers and account for 3(4) of those. i'm still not sure why.
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A - you're obviously biased, you're going to defend these guys even though I specifically said I'm not ragging on them
B - none of the players you called HOFers are in any Hall of Fame
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I should know better than to try to have an objective conversation about anything here.
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a - you called them chopped liver and weak links.
b - will be.
i should know better than to expect you to admit when you're wrong.
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a - you called them chopped liver and weak links.
b - will be.
i should know better than to expect you to admit when you're wrong.
You brought in the "chopped liver" label. And yes, John Parker Wilson, Blake Sims, and year 1 of AJ McCarron are relatively chopped liver when compared to other contemporary NC-winning QBs like Joe Burrow, Trevor Lawrence, and Jameis Winston.
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I don't think you're much of a Nostradamus with those HOF predictions, lol.
It's not even about Alabama, anyway. Let's pick another team that you won't lose all objectivity about...
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Sure, it's why he transferred - his limited passing ability.
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Hurts is a case where he saddled the most responsibility in an environment that would have been more productive for him to be a quality distributor. Sort of like he played point guard like Allen Iverson, despite having Larry Bird camped out at the 3-point line and James Worthy slashing towards the hoop. He's taking too many shots in that situation.
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Hurts was a poorer passer than both is predecessor and successor. He was a good runner for a QB, but his yards per carry was worse than his RBs. Now, that's usually true because sacks are counted in, but still. In '16, his RBs averaged almost 2 yards per carry more than he did. So having a good running QB is an additional attribute can be a good thing, it isn't if he's less productive than the alternative*.
To his credit, he did improve as a passer in '17, but was night-and-day from being as good as Tua.
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Again, this discussion isn't to talk badly about anyone. Hurts started at QB for great Alabama teams and was a good player. But he was surrounded by elite talent. The more of the load he shouldered, I fear it was at the expense of more production by his teammates.
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*if your mind invariably jumps to Tebow, he was Florida's designated 3rd & 1, 4th & 1, and goal-to-go ball carrier. This is evidenced by the rushing TDs, you can look up yourself
Some similar thoughts about him at OU. He was a great leader, a high-character guy. Sooner fans love Jalen Huts the man. But he took a lot of carries away from the RBs and he left open WRs un-thrown to.
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FSU: yr - QB - ATT - RATE - RB YPC - TOP 2 WR - Scoring D Rank
87 - McManus........264.....125.......7.2.......Gainer/Carter......7th
88 - Ferguson........194......153......5.3.......Antho ny/Lewis.....14th
89 - Willis................346....151......5.2.......D awsey/Anthony.....17th
90 - Weldon/Johnson..345....144.....5.2.......Dawsey/Bennett......21st
91 - Weldon(2nd).... 313....146.....5.3......Baker/Bennett........13th
92 - Ward..................365.....127.....5.0......Va nover/Knox.........14th
93 - Ward . ...............380.....158.....6.2......McCorvey/Vanover....1st
94 - Kanell.................380.......129.....6.8..... McCorvey/Dunn.......14th
95 - Kanell.................402.......146.....7.5..... Cooper/Green.........32nd
96 - Busby................243........132.....6.2...... Green/Dunn.........5th
97 - Busby................390........148.....5.6...... Green/Warrick.......7th
98 - Weinke.............286.........142.....4.5......W arrick/Duggans.....3rd
99 - Weinke.............377.......145.......4.5......W arrick/Duggans.....11th
00 - Weinke. .........431........163......5.1......Minnis/Minor..........1st
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So as Florida gets boat-raced in the Cotton Bowl, I chose these data points because.....attempts = trust the HC has in his QB (and is affected by running game effectiveness)....pass rating - to show HOW the QB did in his given attempts......the RB ypc to see if the QB had a good running game to rely on......the top 2 pass-catchers to see if those names were good/talented.....and how the defense was. I'd argue these are all connected and will let us have some sort of conversation. You know, unless someone gets butthurt and wants to defend these FSU QBs and ignore the actual conversation.
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You brought in the "chopped liver" label. And yes, John Parker Wilson, Blake Sims, and year 1 of AJ McCarron are relatively chopped liver when compared to other contemporary NC-winning QBs like Joe Burrow, Trevor Lawrence, and Jameis Winston.
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I don't think you're much of a Nostradamus with those HOF predictions, lol.
It's not even about Alabama, anyway. Let's pick another team that you won't lose all objectivity about...
i said they were not chopped liver because you acted surprised they won titles. you said they were chopped liver.
neither sims nor jpw won a title, and mccarrons 1st year was better than burrows first year as starter.
i'm not trying to be nostradomus, you strawman attacking ditz. i was using it as a point that you should not be surprised that future hall of famers won titles. which was the whole premise of your original post.
you listed 8 bama qb's that have won 5, maybe 6 titles. and that it's disgusting, primarily because they're the weakest link on those teams. i counter with they aren't bad qbs, and that 3 of the are responsible for most of those titles and are very likely future hall of fame qbs.
i don't need to see other qbs because this string of comments is directly related to those 8 bama qbs.
as for the original topic, sure there's been tons of qbs with ridiculous talent around them. almost any title winning qb will have them. burrow and tlaw are among them, as are tua, hurts, and jones. leinhart is probably up there. tebow too. probably easier to list those that didn't. young and cam newton come to mind.
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Coker got to hand the ball off to Derrick Henry 395 times in 2015. I think one of us could've done pretty well on that team.
I know it's a joke, but also, no.
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FSU: yr - QB - ATT - RATE - RB YPC - TOP 2 WR - Scoring D Rank
87 - McManus........264.....125.......7.2.......Gainer/Carter......7th
88 - Ferguson........194......153......5.3.......Antho ny/Lewis.....14th
89 - Willis................346....151......5.2.......D awsey/Anthony.....17th
90 - Weldon/Johnson..345....144.....5.2.......Dawsey/Bennett......21st
91 - Weldon(2nd).... 313....146.....5.3......Baker/Bennett........13th
92 - Ward..................365.....127.....5.0......Va nover/Knox.........14th
93 - Ward . ...............380.....158.....6.2......McCorvey/Vanover....1st
94 - Kanell.................380.......129.....6.8..... McCorvey/Dunn.......14th
95 - Kanell.................402.......146.....7.5..... Cooper/Green.........32nd
96 - Busby................243........132.....6.2...... Green/Dunn.........5th
97 - Busby................390........148.....5.6...... Green/Warrick.......7th
98 - Weinke.............286.........142.....4.5......W arrick/Duggans.....3rd
99 - Weinke.............377.......145.......4.5......W arrick/Duggans.....11th
00 - Weinke. .........431........163......5.1......Minnis/Minor..........1st
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So as Florida gets boat-raced in the Cotton Bowl, I chose these data points because.....attempts = trust the HC has in his QB (and is affected by running game effectiveness)....pass rating - to show HOW the QB did in his given attempts......the RB ypc to see if the QB had a good running game to rely on......the top 2 pass-catchers to see if those names were good/talented.....and how the defense was. I'd argue these are all connected and will let us have some sort of conversation. You know, unless someone gets butthurt and wants to defend these FSU QBs and ignore the actual conversation.
I assume the bolded ones are ones we think are ace drivers as compared to just behind the wheel? Christ, those Warrick Dunn run games.
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Some similar thoughts about him at OU. He was a great leader, a high-character guy. Sooner fans love Jalen Huts the man. But he took a lot of carries away from the RBs and he left open WRs un-thrown to.
most bama fans won't disagree. doesn't mean he wasn't/isn't a good qb and that those runs weren't quality plays. just because pass plays have more y/a doesn't mean running plays aren't worth it. even if it's just to keep them honest. and one of the threats/benefits of having a qb like hurts is it makes the d respect his runs, which in turn gives the rb's better chance at success.
hurts was a 1 read-scramble qb his first year. he progressed to a 2-3 read qb by jr/sr year. still not a full field general, but when combined with his legs made him a legit threat to any d. and a really good overall college qb.
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most bama fans won't disagree. doesn't mean he wasn't/isn't a good qb and that those runs weren't quality plays. just because pass plays have more y/a doesn't mean running plays aren't worth it. even if it's just to keep them honest. and one of the threats/benefits of having a qb like hurts is it makes the d respect his runs, which in turn gives the rb's better chance at success.
hurts was a 1 read-scramble qb his first year. he progressed to a 2-3 read qb by jr/sr year. still not a full field general, but when combined with his legs made him a legit threat to any d. and a really good overall college qb.
I don't disagree with that. He was a good, sometimes really good college QB.
I did forget to mention that he had some turnovers at damaging moments. But he bailed us out at times too.
He's seeing some playing time with the Eagles.
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I assume the bolded ones are ones we think are ace drivers as compared to just behind the wheel? Christ, those Warrick Dunn run games.
Heisman winners and a 2nd-place finish (Weldon)
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So if we look at the FSU list.....we see the 2 Heisman seasons were the top 2 QB ratings, but also, the only 2 years when FSU had the #1 scoring defense. It makes Weldon's 2nd-place finish seem odd. Despite not having an exceptional RB, FSU still passed the ball far less and no more effectively than the year before. Yet Weldon was celebrated.
The transition to Ward was a paradigm shift - passing a lot more and acting like you're in your 2-minute offense all game long.
But while Ward's 93 season was great, how many others could have gone 12-1 with the #1 defense and a RB averaging 6.2 ypc? A handful? A lot? Most? Somewhere in there.
Maybe not as many as I thought. 1993 wasn't exactly a banner year for QBs. And Ward did have a unique skill set - it's not often a QB rushes for 5.2 ypc on draws and scrambles only. Add to that his low INT% and I'd only be confident 2 others could plug-n-play, surrounded by FSU's substantial support: VT's Maurice DeShazo and UT's Heath Shuler.
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Guys, I'm just being nerdy here. The season is almost over and having the discussion is fun for me. I'm not here for subjectively to come wreck the whole thing - I hate that shit. If we're talking about an 8 -year stretch of your team's old QBs and it irks you, please accept this invitation to piss off.
Just enjoy the discussing or move on, please.
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But while Ward's 93 season was great, how many others could have gone 12-1 with the #1 defense and a RB averaging 6.2 ypc? A handful? A lot? Most? Somewhere in there.
Maybe not as many as I thought. 1993 wasn't exactly a banner year for QBs. And Ward did have a unique skill set - it's not often a QB rushes for 5.2 ypc on draws and scrambles only. Add to that his low INT% and I'd only be confident 2 others could plug-n-play, surrounded by FSU's substantial support: VT's Maurice DeShazo and UT's Heath Shuler.
So the exercise is interesting because it seems to center on some degree of replaceability. Is situation X so good that any ole bag of meat could pull it off? And in truth, most QBs are bad. Well, good relative to most, bad relative to college. I chatted with a former so-so college QB a few years back, and he said "Here's the thing. Most of us are distributors." That's football. Your QB is mostly a machine to hand off at greater distances most efficiently.
Now I get the game is to a degree a process of tearing down. But this is a sport of great teams. The best teams have the talent everywhere, and that muscle is best flexed everywhere but QB (more rotation, less emphasis on a singular person). If we want QBs that ascend past their station, we're gonna be looking at 4-loss P5 teams or great G5 teams (which are torn down for the other reason).
The FSU case on the wins front can probably be made by the fact Danny Kanell won 10 games twice as a starter. Put Brees in there, Zach Wilson, it probably gets a little better, but it's CFB. It always can be a little better. Everything is interconnected. Kyle Trask was awful without his top talent. Ward's mobility and passing probably made life easier on the tailbacks. They work in concert.
Since some of the root of it is Mac Jones, I'll say this. I give a guy credit for doing the damn thing. Like, you get all those pieces, you go throw up the stats of a transcendent player. Most don't.
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2016,JT Barret was surrounded with talent WRs Terry McClaurin,Parris Campell were 4.3 guys and Noah Brown got drafted also.Course JT was inconsistent in getting the on time & target but was decent running it.By no means a Hurts or Braxton Miller.O.L. had Jamarco Jones,Isiah Prince,Billy Price,Pat Elflein all NFL guys.RB Curtis Samuel & Mike Webber went Sundays also.And Joe Burrow & Dwayne Haskins backing JT (for what ever reason)
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Guys, I'm just being nerdy here. The season is almost over and having the discussion is fun for me. I'm not here for subjectively to come wreck the whole thing - I hate that shit. If we're talking about an 8 -year stretch of your team's old QBs and it irks you, please accept this invitation to piss off.
Just enjoy the discussing or move on, please.
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/4ZZB0ARXQC1t6/200.gif)
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So the exercise is interesting because it seems to center on some degree of replaceability. Is situation X so good that any ole bag of meat could pull it off? And in truth, most QBs are bad. Well, good relative to most, bad relative to college. I chatted with a former so-so college QB a few years back, and he said "Here's the thing. Most of us are distributors." That's football. Your QB is mostly a machine to hand off at greater distances most efficiently.
Now I get the game is to a degree a process of tearing down. But this is a sport of great teams. The best teams have the talent everywhere, and that muscle is best flexed everywhere but QB (more rotation, less emphasis on a singular person). If we want QBs that ascend past their station, we're gonna be looking at 4-loss P5 teams or great G5 teams (which are torn down for the other reason).
The FSU case on the wins front can probably be made by the fact Danny Kanell won 10 games twice as a starter. Put Brees in there, Zach Wilson, it probably gets a little better, but it's CFB. It always can be a little better. Everything is interconnected. Kyle Trask was awful without his top talent. Ward's mobility and passing probably made life easier on the tailbacks. They work in concert.
Since some of the root of it is Mac Jones, I'll say this. I give a guy credit for doing the damn thing. Like, you get all those pieces, you go throw up the stats of a transcendent player. Most don't.
i agree with most of this, i think. i don't agree with the bold part. not inherently, anyway. if a qb is good at getting out of bad plays and into good ones and distributing the ball, that's one hell of a good qb. even if they aren't an exceptional athlete. peyton manning for example. dude was most awkward athlete i've ever been around (been to some of his qb camps) or seen. but he had the knack for getting his teams out of bad plays and into good ones, and delivering the ball where it needed to be and when it needed to be there. and it was rarely ever a pretty pass or scramble, etc. but he got it done and was one of the best ever at doing so.
as for trask and mac, take away mac's top 4 receivers a couple days before a game vs a really good opp and he'll look just as crappy. an oline doesn't look good with a qb that holds onto the ball too long. wr's don't look good with qb's that can't hit them. rb's look bad with oline that can't open holes. qb's look bad with wr that don't get open or oline that doesn't give them time. you said it best, it's all in tandem. and if you're missing 1 or 2 pieces, it can still be a great offense, but when you have them all together, the offense can become historic. OC plays a big role too. and rules (currently big favor to offenses), styles of play, etc. it's a golden age for offenses right now, and we're seeing it with new records being set every year. but it still takes top talent to create those records.
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i agree with most of this, i think. i don't agree with the bold part. not inherently, anyway. if a qb is good at getting out of bad plays and into good ones and distributing the ball, that's one hell of a good qb. even if they aren't an exceptional athlete. peyton manning for example. dude was most awkward athlete i've ever been around (been to some of his qb camps) or seen. but he had the knack for getting his teams out of bad plays and into good ones, and delivering the ball where it needed to be and when it needed to be there. and it was rarely ever a pretty pass or scramble, etc. but he got it done and was one of the best ever at doing so.
as for trask and mac, take away mac's top 4 receivers a couple days before a game vs a really good opp and he'll look just as crappy. an oline doesn't look good with a qb that holds onto the ball too long. wr's don't look good with qb's that can't hit them. rb's look bad with oline that can't open holes. qb's look bad with wr that don't get open or oline that doesn't give them time. you said it best, it's all in tandem. and if you're missing 1 or 2 pieces, it can still be a great offense, but when you have them all together, the offense can become historic. OC plays a big role too. and rules (currently big favor to offenses), styles of play, etc. it's a golden age for offenses right now, and we're seeing it with new records being set every year. but it still takes top talent to create those records.
When I say most are bad, I mean in the grand scheme. Like, let suppose OAM is to a degree right. If I put 70% of the quarterbacks who are on scholarship on FBS rosters in that office, we would still say, that doesn’t look very good. That’s just the nature of it. There aren’t that many good quarterbacks alive and walking around on this planet.
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I could buy that
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Honestly this is a dumb question.
Most great QBs have a lot of help around them.
Peyton Manning is one of the greatest of all-time in the NFL, and he played on a basically all-star offense in Indianapolis. There was a period of time for 4-5 years when Edgerin James was THE best RB in the NFL. Not one of the best. THE best. Marvin Harrison is a top 3 WR of the entire 2000s- really only Moss and TO could legitimately be ranked above him. Dallas Clark was a 1st RD pick and one of the better TE’s in the league for a lot of years. Reggie Wayne is arguably the best Robin/#2 WR there has ever been and his numbers say he’s a borderline HoF. I don’t think he’s HoF, but you could make a case for him. These guys all played together. At the same time.
What great QB doesn’t have a ton of talent around him? Honestly Marino and Brady are the only ones I’m coming up with. Marino had the Marks brothers but they were midgets. I think he made them more than they made him. Obviously. Brady had Moss for all of two minutes, and while had Gronk for a long time- it was a TE not WR- and Gronk was hurt about half his time in NE. He wasn’t ever consistently healthy, he missed huge chunks of almost every season or post-season he played.
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What's been ignored here are the great players without much around them. Elway at Stanford. Brees was mentioned. Marino split time in 2 of his 4 years at Pitt (unless it wan an injury issue, I'm not old enough to know). He had a great defense his whole career, but what else?
There are dozens of other great QBs with poor supporting casts.....yet if you look at the all-time career pass rating rankings, all of the P5 guys are from elite programs: Bama, OU, OSU, LSU, Oregon, Florida....before we get to Sam Howell of UNC.
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Separately, I was mulling this over again, and we award the Heisman to the QB with the team having the best season. Most often, that includes a bunch of blowouts (that yes, the QB helped create), but that means a lot of stress-free football. I bet if you broke down each Heisman winner's season into "quarters in doubt" - where the outcome of the game was in doubt at the end of each quarter, many would score lower than 10. Meanwhile, there are QBs having great seasons on teams with no OL or running game or poor defenses going 7-5 and over half their quarters are in doubt (24+) that don't get a vote.
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On another aside, just to show how much college football has changed, Ty Detmer had a career pass rating of 162.7 and Jalen Hurts' was 162.6. One was a Heisman winner and a legend and the other was replaced for a much better passer.
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Robert Griffin III was an example of a QB without much around him. Baylor sucked before he took the reigns. In his Heisman season, the defense gave up 37 points per game. He HAD to play great or they'd lose. Their recruiting was 9th-10th in the Big XII the year before Griffin signed, the year he signed, and the year after.
He was the reason they were good. I'd be willing to bet HE is the reason their RB averaged 6.2 ypc or that 2 of his WRs got some publicity. Most of his season, the outcome of each game was in doubt.
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It's not that other Heisman winners didn't earn their awards, but I'm especially confident Griffin earned his.
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What's been ignored here are the great players without much around them. Elway at Stanford. Brees was mentioned. Marino split time in 2 of his 4 years at Pitt (unless it wan an injury issue, I'm not old enough to know). He had a great defense his whole career, but what else?
There are dozens of other great QBs with poor supporting casts.....yet if you look at the all-time career pass rating rankings, all of the P5 guys are from elite programs: Bama, OU, OSU, LSU, Oregon, Florida....before we get to Sam Howell of UNC.
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Separately, I was mulling this over again, and we award the Heisman to the QB with the team having the best season. Most often, that includes a bunch of blowouts (that yes, the QB helped create), but that means a lot of stress-free football. I bet if you broke down each Heisman winner's season into "quarters in doubt" - where the outcome of the game was in doubt at the end of each quarter, many would score lower than 10. Meanwhile, there are QBs having great seasons on teams with no OL or running game or poor defenses going 7-5 and over half their quarters are in doubt (24+) that don't get a vote.
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On another aside, just to show how much college football has changed, Ty Detmer had a career pass rating of 162.7 and Jalen Hurts' was 162.6. One was a Heisman winner and a legend and the other was replaced for a much better passer.
FWIW, Hurts' passer rating his senior year was 191.2.
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Robert Griffin III was an example of a QB without much around him. Baylor sucked before he took the reigns. In his Heisman season, the defense gave up 37 points per game. He HAD to play great or they'd lose. Their recruiting was 9th-10th in the Big XII the year before Griffin signed, the year he signed, and the year after.
He was the reason they were good. I'd be willing to bet HE is the reason their RB averaged 6.2 ypc or that 2 of his WRs got some publicity. Most of his season, the outcome of each game was in doubt.
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It's not that other Heisman winners didn't earn their awards, but I'm especially confident Griffin earned his.
RGIII is a good example of the opposite of the model you built in your OP.
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Right. But everyone shits on whatever I post, so I'm just having a full-circle convo, hoping enough people will stay on-topic enough for it to be fleshed out. Many here aren't interested in contributing to the discussion, and that's fine.
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It is interesting to me that the Heisman has probably been awarded dozens of times to a QB who was not at risk of losing 80%+ of the time.
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When it comes to Hurts' year at OU, that's where coaching/system comes in, right?
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Right. But everyone shits on whatever I post, so I'm just having a full-circle convo, hoping enough people will stay on-topic enough for it to be fleshed out. Many here aren't interested in contributing to the discussion, and that's fine.
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It is interesting to me that the Heisman has probably been awarded dozens of times to a QB who was not at risk of losing 80%+ of the time.
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When it comes to Hurts' year at OU, that's where coaching/system comes in, right?
Yeah. I wasn't using RGIII to rebut your premise, just agreeing with you that he is a guy who was NOT carried by the rest of the team.
And, yes, I suspect that coaching and offensive system had something to do with Hurt's improvement his senior year. He's showing that he can be a serviceable NFL QB under the right circumstances, which is more than many highly touted college QBs ever do, but he's not going to carry a team with his brilliant passing skills.
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He still has arm strength so DBs have to respect the long ball