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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43078 on: March 19, 2025, 03:16:58 PM »
Are you the exception?  'Cuz otherwise, we've all just got opinions and introducing the Genetic Fallacy doesn't really get us anywhere. 

I mean what I said earlier about this being a strange hill to die on.  This has nothing to do with the legality of the issue, but one political group opened up the border in ways we've never seen, to effects we've never seen, and did so by a dereliction of duty to protect our borders.  Dereliction of duty is not following the law.  Now we get up in arms about the other party supposedly not following the law to undo the damage. 

K.

And that's assuming that the law is not being followed here--which as of yet, no one has convinced me. 
I am a flawed human being, like all others, and I am tribal. Do I think I am better at resisting the political flow of the masses better than most? Yes, I think that. I know that if the example I gave regarding the IRS seizing someone's property--as long as it was a Democratic administration that did it--everyone here advocating for the Trump Administration violating the court's order would be screaming bloody murder. The issue is not undocumented immigration: good or bad. The issue is the basic checks and balances in our constitutional system. That is a "value neutral" proposition. But because it impacts the Trump Administration, many people here are going to great lengths to justify it. And that's the part that, yes, I am able to make the distinction, and I am sad that others are not. If it helps you put meat on that bone, I never called for the impeachment of Judge Cannon. I was always content for the appellate system to do its job. I know that many on the left did call for all sorts of things relating to Cannon. That is also unfortunate.

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43079 on: March 19, 2025, 03:18:22 PM »
I think you are missing something. THe current discussion doesn't involve general deportation of illegal aliens, they are getting due process. This particular case involves criminal gang members.  Trump decided to declare them terrorist organization.  Followed by saying we are at war with Terror, therefore I can invoke the Alien Enemies act and deport them on just my say so.  The Alien Enemies Act requires that it be part of the US be in war, so that, in my opinion will be where the case is decided.  Are we at war with terrorism.  Not sure if there is anything that Congress has done to "declare" war.  By the way the Alien Enemies Act was what Roosevelt used to intern Japanese American during WWII.
Japanese interment was bad. 

And if they’re criminal gang members, surely we can show that through regular processes. Unless the evidence is weak, which would be another issue. 

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43080 on: March 19, 2025, 03:25:34 PM »
Their mission is explicitly anti-politicized judiciary.  They support interpreting the Constitution based on the usual standards of statutory interpretation rather than based on some vague notions of progressivism. 

For the non-lawyers here, I'll explain the issue:
When you go to law school you learn a host of rules of statutory and contractual interpretation, some examples are:
  • The plain meaning rule - what is the plain meaning of the text?
  • Intent of the drafters - what did the parties intend? 
  • Construction against the drafter - This is why your insurance policy is 900 pages long.  There is a standard that says that if one side drafted the contract, any ambiguities are resolved against that party.  Thus, Insurance Companies (which draft their policies) end up making them 900 pages long in order to eliminate any ambiguities. 

For Conservatives (Federalist Society) these very same rules apply to the Constitution.  Originalists, we are called, because we assert that the Constitution should be interpreted as originally intended. 

This is where it gets very strange.  Liberals generally believe that the Constitution is a "living document" and thus that the normal rules of interpretation should not apply and instead the Constitution simply says whatever they want it to say.  Ie, they like to make it up as they go along. 

Making up new Constitution as they go along has gotten us into a whole lot of problems that would have been avoided if we had simply followed the law. 

Didn’t know you were a lawyer.

But I suppose if the argument is the rights in the constitution weren’t meant to be interpreted as much of rights at all, which has kind of been a theme in your posting, then it’s certainly been an interesting ride, and now we can all go back to trusting the government deeply.

(Originalism in practice also seems to be finding the older documents that justify the writer’s political motives. Just some cute branding, like a few other things)

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43081 on: March 19, 2025, 03:26:15 PM »
Were we "at war" with poverty when LBJ said we were? 

Congress has the right to declare war.

Congress can also give warlike powers to the executive (although the constitutionality of that is in question, it's been done so much now that a court isn't going to get in the way of the executive relying on that).

There has been no grant of war powers related to immigrants.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43082 on: March 19, 2025, 04:13:08 PM »
Didn’t know you were a lawyer.
I'm not but I did go to lawschool for a few years, I just didn't finish.  
But I suppose if the argument is the rights in the constitution weren’t meant to be interpreted as much of rights at all, which has kind of been a theme in your posting, then it’s certainly been an interesting ride, and now we can all go back to trusting the government deeply.
Where have I said this "theme"?
(Originalism in practice also seems to be finding the older documents that justify the writer’s political motives. Just some cute branding, like a few other things)
You can argue that.  You can also argue that the intent was wrongly determined.  That is kinda the point of having a standard.  Originalism IS a standard.  The problem is that the left doesn't have a standard at all, they just make it up as they go along.  That lawlessness IS the problem.  

After decades of leftist lawlessness don't expect me to get upset if my side engages in some of their own.  

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43083 on: March 19, 2025, 04:36:38 PM »
Were we "at war" with poverty when LBJ said we were?

Congress has the right to declare war.

Congress can also give warlike powers to the executive (although the constitutionality of that is in question, it's been done so much now that a court isn't going to get in the way of the executive relying on that).

There has been no grant of war powers related to immigrants.

The issue seems to be the language "incursion"--it needn't be a war, according to the Act.  Did Venezuela make an incursion into US territory?  That's where the mileage will vary, as far as I can tell.  

I just emailed someone the Supreme Court case I mentioned that said the Alien Enemies Act is not reviewable by any court, including SCOTUS (anymore, I guess.....because, I mean....they said that in a review ruling, so....).  But I'm sure you're familiar with it.  As far as I can read it, if the Act applies, this judge has already been "told" by SCOTUS that he can't stop anything here.  

So that's where the matter is, and where I'm not seeing much of anybody discuss.....did the Executive branch correctly label this an incursion?  Or not? 

It seems to me that any judge's ruling would have to concern whether or not this matter constitutes an incursion.....NOT how the president handles what he deems to be an incursion.  That has already been dealt with by SCOTUS.  But the judge clearly did the latter and not the former.  He clearly intervened in the policy, and not the designation itself.  

I think you, brad, bayarea and others may feel like someone like me is just trying to do victory laps over something I agree with.   But I have not even weighed in on what I think about the matter here on the board, or what concerns I have, if any, for the future by potential precedent......I've only tried to say what I think about the legality of it.  

There is a clear bent in this conversation to make this about judicial orders vs. executive action.  I contend that is not the issue, and that the real issue is instead the aforementioned applicability of the Act itself.  

I mentioned to someone else here via PM that this looks like a Policy matter vs. Powers matter debate.  You either think this a policy matter and probably think the courts should get lost, or you think it's a powers matter and probably think we're on the cusp of Constitutional Crisis yet again.  I outlined my position in those PMs as best I could but I don't think I was convincing, and it's a reasonable individual, so I'm not ready to write off anyone who disagrees with me.  He kept telling me what the judge demanded and how it may yet be not-complied-with, and I kept talking about how the judge doesn't get to demand anything here unless or until he shows/its shown this is not an incursion.  The limits restraining this judge by the case I mentioned seems clear.....if it's an incursion.  

If someone wants to litigate that this is not an incursion, then that, imo, is where it seems the legal battle should be fought.  But not randomly meddling with policy by ordering planes back which were sent by an elected official exercising duly granted powers by Article 1.  

But I ain't no lawyer.  I'm sure I've convinced you about as well as I've convinced anyone else.  

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43084 on: March 19, 2025, 04:47:12 PM »
I would argue yes.  I was thinking through potential loop holes where ISIS would not fall under the act, but they would definitely fall under it IMO.
As ISIS is not a government nor a country yet the act would apply to them, the reason must be because they are designated a terrorist organization. Would that be the case?

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43085 on: March 19, 2025, 04:50:30 PM »
After decades of leftist lawlessness don't expect me to get upset if my side engages in some of their own. 

Okay, I admit it.  You got me.  

This is where I have a hard time mustering the "care" I ethically and prudentially feel I should have when considering "if a guy I agree with did it, what happens when a guy I disagree with does it?"

I don't disagree that it's a good question to always keep in mind.

It's just that we're effectively past that.  I don't have to anticipate a hypothetical future when a president I disagree with wipes his butt with the law and sends chills up my spine on a daily basis.  

I don't wish the rest of you lived where I live, watched as ~15 million people illegally crossed close to home, watched as some of them stayed put locally and watched what happened to crime, and worried about every time my wife is out in the world without me. 

I don't wish that any of you knew any families affected by it. 

I do wish some of you so suddenly concerned that the president dots every i and crosses every t were clutching your pearls like this when it was happening.  No, I just hear that when it's being undone.  

slugsrbad

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43086 on: March 19, 2025, 06:07:48 PM »
As ISIS is not a government nor a country yet the act would apply to them, the reason must be because they are designated a terrorist organization. Would that be the case?
I would argue that ISIS is a stateless government, which is why it would apply. I don’t know how much the terrorist organization would track, since the global war on terror is not a real war and the AUMF post-9/11 technically shouldn’t apply to ISIS (but that hasn’t stopped any President from using it for action outside Confressional approval). 

Riffraft

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43087 on: March 19, 2025, 06:56:01 PM »
Japanese interment was bad.


But it was legal under the law

Riffraft

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43088 on: March 19, 2025, 07:04:16 PM »
One of the coincidences of life, I am currently reading a biography of John Adams and I just happened to be reading yesterday about the alien and sedition Acts of 1798.

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43089 on: March 19, 2025, 07:06:03 PM »
But it was legal under the law
Slavery and segregation too!

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43090 on: March 19, 2025, 09:23:46 PM »
just such an odd hill for liberal-leaning folks to die on

Seems to be a theme the past 8 years or so.
Also seems to have been a huge blunder in the last election
and if it truly was a huge blunder, they seem to be doubling down and not learning from it.
the party is going to hell in a hand basket
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43091 on: March 19, 2025, 09:28:37 PM »
I am a flawed human being, like all others, and I am tribal. Do I think I am better at resisting the political flow of the masses better than most? Yes, I think that. I know that if the example I gave regarding the IRS seizing someone's property--as long as it was a Democratic administration that did it--everyone here advocating for the Trump Administration violating the court's order would be screaming bloody murder. The issue is not undocumented immigration: good or bad. The issue is the basic checks and balances in our constitutional system. That is a "value neutral" proposition. But because it impacts the Trump Administration, many people here are going to great lengths to justify it. And that's the part that, yes, I am able to make the distinction, and I am sad that others are not. If it helps you put meat on that bone, I never called for the impeachment of Judge Cannon. I was always content for the appellate system to do its job. I know that many on the left did call for all sorts of things relating to Cannon. That is also unfortunate.
you are comparing apples to oranges my guy. the IRS seizing a US citizens property does not = the expulsion of illegal criminal aliens. 

Far as I can tell, very few here are on board for it because it impacts the Trump administration. They are on board for it because: they want illegal alien criminal scum that HAVE NO FUCKING RIGHT TO BE HERE IN THE FUCKING FIRST PLACE OUT OF THE GOD DAMN COUNTRY. It's really that simple my brother in christ. That. Fucking. Simple.

 

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