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Topic: Misfits Thread

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SFBadger96

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3626 on: June 19, 2020, 12:13:47 PM »
@Drew4UTk african mahogany with buffalo hide for the cover.

longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3627 on: June 19, 2020, 12:25:36 PM »
Aside from the police being the "target" of that quote.... it seems more reasonable to me the message is "we're our own worst enemy"... why? Because the police ARE us, they weren't delivered from some galaxy far far away... the mobs? Thats us too.. OAN.. more us...

Et al, it is "we".

Placing your value of opinion above others is where the trouble starts. 
Thats kinda what Ive been saying

The police are a reflection of the community leaders

If the police have no accountability its not the fault of the police

The police are order takers and policy followers

How many police departments in this country have black mayors and largely black city councilmen 

I am so tired of seeing police being accused of racist actions when their bosses are black

if you have hired racists to police your community do something about it
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3628 on: June 19, 2020, 12:36:09 PM »

The fact that the guy could've lost his job for wearing a damn t-shirt on a private fishing trip is absolutely insane in the first place though. INSANE. He didn't post the pic to Facebook, I think his sons friend did.


So I think this is sort of the crux on a couple levels.

The T-shirt itself is not so much the issue. And the Twitter mob isn't either. It's the player reaction. Even if Hubbard had come out alone, it's not that much of a thing. But Hubbard came out, and suddenly a lot of other players did too. And that tells us that Gundy was doing something that ended up making people not like him, and this was a tipping point of sorts.

Now we can argue around if not being liked should cost you a job. But if the boosters don't like you, a bad season is more likely to cost. And if you're in a position where the players don't like you, and you need potential players to like you to build good teams, things could become untenable.

Shoot, huge chunks of that profession are good ole boys. But they have to charm young people of color. And if t do something that might strongly create problems there, it would hurt them, possibly to the point of dismissal. There's an interesting example in Dabo Swinney. He got in some hot water, but people around him backed him to the gills, and that tells us something. 

Drew4UTk

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3629 on: June 19, 2020, 12:38:36 PM »
@Drew4UTk african mahogany with buffalo hide for the cover.
Aye.... it is beautiful work.  There are at least three species referred to as "African mahogany"... one of which is Sapele, which that desk is not.  I would have spotted it instantly.  Of the three called African mahogany Sapele is the first to be discredited as such... i think those trees grow in such abundance and are so freaking large the name was given in effort to market them.  The wood itself has a translucent quality and refracts like a gemstone- there is a name for this characteristic that has escaped me... i really like working with Sapele... the clock i posted is predominately such... as is most the cutting boards predominate material.  On the janga scale, sapele is around 1800 (most species of oak, for reference, are in the 1100-1200 range, and hickory and pecan which there is little distinguished difference, is around 1700)... its pretty tough stuff and carves well for that reason, even if a little hard on my tools.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3630 on: June 19, 2020, 01:15:29 PM »
It’s not that I don’t agree to a certain extent. Any degree of better is better.  But the police have millions of personal encounters with the public each year and a fraction of them go sideways.  If we can reduce that number through reform or enhanced training then I am all for it.

It just seems like cops are getting painted with a pretty broad brush and that  piece of satire you posted doesn’t help.

To a degree they are, but there are certain cultural problems that are to a degree normalized. 

Let's put it this way, cops are, in a small theater, enormously powerful and usually given a wide benefit of the doubt. And when given a broad latitude to cut corners or do something uncouth, a lotta folks do. 

I'll share a few examples, one kinda more egregious, one more subtle.

The first is two friends of a friend who were a couple and both cops. They arrest a guy who pretty clearly assaulted an older woman (I think it was a relative). Did something pretty despicable. And they were so disgusted, they tuned him up. They harmed him because they knew he did this horrible thing. 

On one hand, it's understandable. On the other hand, they violated his rights, committed criminal acts and undercut the very system which they are charged to uphold. They won't get sued. Maybe they'll get a complaint filed that'll probably be sealed. But in that act, they erode away the authority they hold.

Another story. 

I was watching a documentary about militarized police, and the film crew was allowed to tape a SWAT raid in my own town. And one guy was really jazzed to use a tool that has a hammer head on a pivot. You go up to a wall, swing, the handle hits the wall, the hammer rotates through and breaks a window. It's used to distract before busting in

They use that, bust into the house, scare the family, find the suspect. Find the smallest bits of pot at the bottom of a backpack. Arrest the kid. Older man says "That's our window." SWAT member, "It was a distraction tactic." Guy in house "That's my effing window." Cops told the shaken family something like "I guess you shouldn't have housed a drug dealer." Come back the next day, family is sifting through the damaged house.

That kind of thing has a cost, financial, time, etc. It has an impact. And I think at times, that's not recognized. 

I kind of come to this point. I respect the way that job will wear away empathy. And that's a real issue. Because whenever a cop is in one of those many interactions, they put the other person at a decided power disadvantage. And people by and large do not like that. So my assumption is that while most interactions don't go sideways, they do have a natural level of testiness that I think cops need to be aware of in their actions. 

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3631 on: June 19, 2020, 01:20:19 PM »
We were at Costco this AM, the place was packed.  I usually avoid Friday but I thought it would be OK (it was OK).

Premium gas was $2.04/gal.

They had plenty of beef, but had limits on purchases.  Everyone was masked.  No food samples of course.  Steelhead trout was $7/lb.  I bought some stock on back even though my adviser told me it was over priced.  Ha.

When I find a company that seems to be extremely well run, I buy it, or look hard at buying it.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3632 on: June 19, 2020, 01:22:47 PM »
Do you mean lawsuits against the individual cops?
Yes, that's part of it. One method of accountability is individual civil liability for violating a citizen's Constitutional rights, and qualified immunity coupled with local police departments indemnifying officers from the financial burden of the lawsuits/settlements rather than requiring them to carry liability insurance for their actions.

Two actions that would make a difference:

  • End qualified immunity.
  • Require officers to carry individual liability insurance and don't allow departments to indemnify them.

Making those two changes would be much more useful than a database of officer complaints, or "better training" (which isn't enforced in the streets), etc. 

I think he means jail time. But I'll let him speak on that.
It's this too. Quite often you see issues of police brutality which are crimes by the officer, and the DA declines to prosecute. And even when officers are disciplined without prosecution, the police unions make it nearly impossible to actually punish them in any meaningful way. 

As I've said elsewhere, this is a harder one for structural reasons--public sector unions in general and police unions in particular are very powerful, especially in local elections and local politics. A district attorney (usually an elected official) or a mayor who acts counter to the police unions' wishes will usually find those unions backing someone else once the next election rolls around. 

But yes, when police are actually committing criminal acts, they should be prosecuted. We should be holding them to a higher standard than the public given the responsibilities and power they are afforded, not a lower standard.

bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3633 on: June 19, 2020, 01:24:14 PM »


The police are order takers and policy followers


If that's the case, this should be easy. 

But I fear it is more complex and will not be so easy. 

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3634 on: June 19, 2020, 01:28:14 PM »
I know I got very jaded at work, not that anyone else cared of course.  I was worn out and demotivated by 15 years.  

I'd imagine the things you see as an LEO makes you jaded in 3 years or so.  Maybe you have good intentions still, but you develop "instincts" and reactions to certain stimuli, like the color of a person's skin.  Maybe you lose your temper out of frustration.

Can this be countered by training?  Probably somewhat.  Accountability?  Somewhat.

I've chatted with some Marines who were in Iraq who said after 6 months, they were on a hair trigger and were getting borderline in terms of opening up on MOMAs just because they looked bad.


bayareabadger

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3635 on: June 19, 2020, 01:30:11 PM »
I know I got very jaded at work, not that anyone else cared of course.  I was worn out and demotivated by 15 years. 

I'd imagine the things you see as an LEO makes you jaded in 3 years or so.  Maybe you have good intentions still, but you develop "instincts" and reactions to certain stimuli, like the color of a person's skin.  Maybe you lose your temper out of frustration.

Can this be countered by training?  Probably somewhat.  Accountability?  Somewhat.

I've chatted with some Marines who were in Iraq who said after 6 months, they were on a hair trigger and were getting borderline in terms of opening up on MOMAs just because they looked bad.


Museums of modern art?

Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3636 on: June 19, 2020, 01:32:00 PM »
MOMA = Male of Military Age.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3637 on: June 19, 2020, 01:32:47 PM »
Thats kinda what Ive been saying

The police are a reflection of the community leaders

If the police have no accountability its not the fault of the police

The police are order takers and policy followers

How many police departments in this country have black mayors and largely black city councilmen

I am so tired of seeing police being accused of racist actions when their bosses are black

if you have hired racists to police your community do something about it
The police fund the police unions. The police unions fund the elected officials' campaigns which are supposed to oversee the police. So the elected officials don't mess with the police and don't enforce any accountability.

That's the point. The system is captured by the very folks who we are trying to hold accountable, such that we cannot effectively counter the political power that protects an unjust system.

Why doesn't the black mayor rein in the cops? Because when standing up for your ideal means losing your job--sometimes you make the political calculation to not rock the boat. Especially when you realize that most of these elected officials believe they're doing good (or they wouldn't have sought the job) and anyone else would be worse in the job, so they rationalize that the good they do elsewhere excuses them from standing up to the cops and the police union.


longhorn320

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3638 on: June 19, 2020, 01:37:18 PM »
The police fund the police unions. The police unions fund the elected officials' campaigns which are supposed to oversee the police. So the elected officials don't mess with the police and don't enforce any accountability.

That's the point. The system is captured by the very folks who we are trying to hold accountable, such that we cannot effectively counter the political power that protects an unjust system.

Why doesn't the black mayor rein in the cops? Because when standing up for your ideal means losing your job--sometimes you make the political calculation to not rock the boat. Especially when you realize that most of these elected officials believe they're doing good (or they wouldn't have sought the job) and anyone else would be worse in the job, so they rationalize that the good they do elsewhere excuses them from standing up to the cops and the police union.


two points

get rid of police unions

the elected community leaders need to grow a pair
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

utee94

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #3639 on: June 19, 2020, 01:37:54 PM »
true, but high school recruits and current college players are told to watch what they do and say that might end up on social media by coaches.  not at a team function or press conference.

IMO, the head coach should be held to a higher standard than a high school recruit.  Practice what you preach.

Yeah, sort-of, but not exactly.

Like I stated earlier, we're free to say what we want in this country, and that doesn't mean we're free from the reactions, and repercussions of what we say.

However, if the network on his t-shirt is as y'all have described, then effectively he's being called out and censured for being a Trump supporter.  That's it.  He supports the current president of the United States of America, a duly elected official, and this is enough for him to be censured and risk jeopardizing his team and/or his job  That's really pretty remarkable, to be honest.

With the kids, the advice is usually asking them to NOT make racist statements, to not curse or swear, to not exhibit or encourage underage drinking or drug use, those types of things. 

That's not what this is, at all.

Even so, Gundy should probably understand the viewpoints of his team well enough to know that being a Trump supporter is going to be an unpopular view.  That much, at least, is on him.

 

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