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Topic: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness

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847badgerfan

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #672 on: April 03, 2019, 07:09:08 PM »
Not sure if all of you heard this, but I just transferred back up to St. Paul to work in another office. Rochester was nice, but I'm glad to be back up by the fiance' and family.
Congrats pal.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Cincydawg

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #673 on: April 05, 2019, 03:43:24 PM »
Home, Uber to the airport in Boston worked fine, a bit pricey for a 30 minute ride.  Flight uneventful, caught MARTA home, lugging two suitcases about 7 blocks or so, mostly downhill or flat.  Got a bit sweaty.  This is the nicest time of the year in ATL, dogwoods in bloom and azaleas, think the Masters.  And then the pine pollen hits.

I don't see much future for cabs with Uber and Lyft.

Autonomous cars and EVs will be here in a few.

SFBadger96

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #674 on: April 05, 2019, 04:50:10 PM »
Yup. Autonomous vehicles are going to put a lot of people out of work.

SFBadger96

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #675 on: April 05, 2019, 05:00:49 PM »

USS Constitution? And which submarine--the Lionfish?

I've got to get the in-laws (who live in MA) to take the boy to Battleship Cove and Maritime Museum.

Cincydawg

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #676 on: April 05, 2019, 05:01:45 PM »

SFBadger96

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #677 on: April 05, 2019, 05:16:33 PM »
The Iowa has an exhibit running right now called "Lost at Sea" that focuses on naval shipwrecks. It included the Hood and the Bismarck, but more interesting (and previously unknown to me) was the section on the submarines Thresher and the Scorpion. Yeesh--what an awful fate.

Cincydawg

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #678 on: April 05, 2019, 05:21:04 PM »
The HMS Hood did a lot to make the Bismark famous, really.  The odd thing is that the shot that blew up the Hood MAY have originated with the Prince Eugen that was with the Bismark.

The Hood was a large battle cruiser that lacked armor in key spots.  I was musing that the USS Constitution was a kind of battle cruiser of its day, fast enough to run from a real "ship of the line" and armed well enough to dominate other frigates.  

The German ship Tirpitz is less famous but had a larger impact on the course of the war just by "being".

SFBadger96

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #679 on: April 05, 2019, 05:50:20 PM »
Indeed. The boy has a model of the Tirpitz...and one of the Bismarck, the Missouri, and he's currently working on the Yamato (Iowa is next--why he felt the need to do the Iowa after the Missouri, I'm not sure). Unlike the Bismarck (scuttled, though it would have sunk eventually), the English actually sunk the Tirpitz--the ship that was the reason for the Iowa sailing in the Atlantic. When the Tirpitz went down, the Iowa was sent to the Pacific.

And the Hood--also a rough fate, with only three of the 1500 on board rescued.

My grandmother remembers sitting around the dinner table with her father, a Navy Captain, listening to worry about the Tirpitz coming out of port.

CWSooner

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #680 on: April 05, 2019, 06:53:28 PM »
The HMS Hood did a lot to make the Bismark famous, really.  The odd thing is that the shot that blew up the Hood MAY have originated with the Prince Eugen that was with the Bismark.

The Hood was a large battle cruiser that lacked armor in key spots.  I was musing that the USS Constitution was a kind of battle cruiser of its day, fast enough to run from a real "ship of the line" and armed well enough to dominate other frigates.  

The German ship Tirpitz is less famous but had a larger impact on the course of the war just by "being".
The British had a lot of emotion invested in the Hood.  She was built before the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922, which--among other provisions--limited the size (weight, actually, but it's somewhat the same thing) of capital ships.  The battleships built after than were known as "treaty ships," and they were less than satisfactory.  They had to give up something--armor, armament, or propulsion--to stay within the treaty limits.  You got battleships like Nelson and Rodney, where there were no main guns aft of the superstructure, which was located about 2/3 of the way back to the stern.  They were jokingly referred to as Nelsol and Rodnol, as they sort of resembled a class of fleet oilers.
Back to Hood, Johnny Horton didn't invent calling her "The Mighty Hood."  That was how the British saw her--she was the largest battle cruiser ever built, the Pride of the Fleet.  As you mentioned, it was believed that she was fast enough to escape from any ship she couldn't outgun.  Analysis of Jutland cast doubt on that belief, as Beatty's battle cruisers did not fare well in that fight, and Hood's armor was upgraded between the wars.  She was scheduled for a major rebuild in 1941 to correct several shortcomings when WWII broke out.  She never got the upgrade.
Nice comparison to the USS Constitution and her fellow big frigates.
The Germans had had a different philosophy in building battle cruisers before WWI.  Instead of reducing armor protection, they reduced the size of the main guns.  These fared better at Jutland than the British ones.  They were badly shot up, but none of them blew up like three of Beatty's did.
WWI did a lot to kill enthusiasm for battle cruisers, and several of them--some already built, others still under construction--were converted to aircraft carriers.  Lexington and Saratoga were the American examples of this.
Nazi Germany built the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau before WWII.  They were sometimes called fast battleships, but they were really battle cruisers.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #681 on: April 05, 2019, 07:41:49 PM »
Hood's companion in the Battle of Denmark Strait was the battleship HMS Prince of Wales.  She was designed to the limits of the Washington Treaty.  What she gave up was firepower--she only had 14" main guns.  It was her first fight--in fact, she wasn't even quite finished.  She put to sea with civilian workers still aboard.  She was hurt in that fight, with one shot from Bismarck killing everyone on her bridge except her captain and one other officer, and another shot disabling her aft turret.

Two months after that, she took Winston Churchill to secretly meet Franklin Roosevelt in Placentia Bay, Newfoundland for the "Atlantic Conference," which produced the famous Atlantic Charter.

Army Air Forces chief Hap Arnold went to that meeting too.  There's a great monograph about how four AAF Forces officers planned the U.S. air war against Germany during the nine days Arnold was gone.  It's Planning the American Air War: Four Men and Nine Days in 1941, by James Gaston.  Here's a passage about Prince of Wales.  Gaston contrasts what has happened and what will happen to Prince of Wales with what most Americans are thinking about in that last summer of our peace: new music, new fashions, and summer vacations.

Quote
Fifteen hundred miles to the northeast [of Coney Island], though, the threat of much more than a gasoline shortage had become very real to Hap Arnold. Thanks to Captain J.C. Leach and the Prince of Wales. Arnold had looked closely at a war that had little to do with windshield stickers or gas station curfews.  Something more than a funhouse demon had mauled Britain's proudest battleship, and something more than "production line" fashion shows and the "Defense Swing" would soon be demanded of America.

Four months later, almost to the day, something more was demanded of J.C. Leach. Off Singapore at 11:45 A.M. on 10 December, Japanese torpedo bombers caught the Prince of Wales in open seas with no air protection. Within an hour, the ship's condition was hopeless. At 1:15, Leach gave the order to abandon ship. Several of his men escaped, but Leach remained on the bridge until escape was impossible. He spoke his last words to another British ship in the area—"Goodbye. Thank you. Good luck. God bless you."—from a spot 9,600 miles west of New York, a world away from Coney Island.

Prince of Wales, along with modernized battle cruiser HMS Repulse were sunk 2 days into the Pacific War.  For anyone who cared to learn, it was proof that battleships could not survive against determined air attacks.
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #682 on: April 05, 2019, 07:56:02 PM »
Speaking of Singapore, there is of course the old story that the guns of the fortress could not be turned around to fire on the Japanese who invaded by land instead of sea.  Reality is that guns were equipped with only armor piercing shells, not high explosive, so they'd be of little value against an armed force on land.  Naval guns would fire either armor piercing rounds, which were mostly steel, or high explosive, which were mostly, well, explosive.  Tanks today use the same basic concept firing either sabot rounds of HEAT rounds, in the main.

An M1A2 fires a sabot round of repleted uranium which carries a lot of momentum to whatever it hits.  The Russian tanks were often equipped with reactive armor that would explode outward when hit, but the sabot would go right through, and generate  a lot of heat if it did not penetrate.

The USS Washington fired somewhere around 78 rounds in a night battle with the Japanese battle cruiser Kirishima near Guadalacanal and had estimated 9 hits, at 10,000 yards or so, radar guided, in 1942.  The IJN Kirishima was sunk.  Not an equal contest, and one of few battleship engagements in WW Two.

Most battleships never did what they were designed to do, fight other BBs.

MrNubbz

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #683 on: April 05, 2019, 08:11:36 PM »
Prince of Wales, along with modernized battle cruiser HMS Repulse were sunk 2 days into the Pacific War.  For anyone who cared to learn, it was proof that battleships could not survive against determined air attacks.
Old Chester was ahead of the curve in naval warfare in both submariners and flattops.Some old ships that were being scuttled were use to demonstrate by Bill Mitchell what Air Power could do.The other old Navy Captains were poo-pooing the idea,but Chester was moving that program forward after Mitchell's demonstration of demolition
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CWSooner

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #684 on: April 05, 2019, 09:28:43 PM »
CD:

Bismarck and Tirpitz may have had exaggerated reputations.  In some ways, they reflected WWI-era thinking.  For example, they had two different types of medium guns--12 150mm (5.9") guns for use against ships and 16 105mm (4.1") guns for anti-aircraft fire.  By comparison, the American Iowa-class battleships had 20 dual-purpose 5" guns.  This left more room on the Iowas for smaller 40mm and 20mm AA guns.

Also, the Bismarcks were designed for a different role for what they were intended to perform.  From the start, they were intended as commerce-raiders, and that's how they were used.  But they were designed to slug it out with other battleships, and did not have the range that commerce-raiders needed.

Here's an amateur analysis that concludes that the Iowa-class battleships were the best ever, significantly better than the much-bigger and more heavily armed Japanese Yamato-class ships.  The Bismarcks don't come out very well here either.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm
« Last Edit: April 05, 2019, 09:36:21 PM by CWSooner »
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CWSooner

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Re: 2019 Offseason Stream of Unconsciousness
« Reply #685 on: April 05, 2019, 09:35:45 PM »
Mr. Nubbz:

I grew up as the son of an Air Force fighter pilot and I loved Billy Mitchell (although he was a bomber guy).

But Mitchell cheated in those demonstrations against the German battleship Ostfriesland.  He used 2000-lb bombs instead of the agreed-upon 1,000-pounders.  And his supporters falsely claimed that the Ostfriesland had been a reputedly unsinkable super-battleship.

This sort of thing is what eventually got Mitchell court-martialed.

In addition, the German ship was anchored, making it a sitting duck.  Hitting a ship maneuvering at speed is a much more difficult task than hitting a stationary one.
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