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Topic: #14 Michigan (0-1) at #12 Notre Dame (1-0) Post Game

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ELA

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2018, 04:02:13 PM »
For sure. This isn't the place to research bets. 2015 and 2016 aside, we've been generally AWFUL at predicting Michigan's seasons since 2007. Then again, even over the awful years, Michigan continually did enough to grow its lead in the all-time series versus ND.
Michigan, even in the down years, seemed to continually play well against Notre Dame.  That game always being early, and given the helmet bump each gets, tended to give it an artificial importance boost, which frequently led to UM getting an early rating bump.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that four times in 5 years (2009, 2010, 2011, 2013) UM's best performance of the season came against Notre Dame.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #43 on: August 29, 2018, 04:29:00 PM »
I think that's right ELA. And though the past doesn't predict the future in this way (past ND games are irrelevant to predicting this one), fans tend to forget it and increment their confidence anyway. And we are.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2018, 04:31:00 PM »
2017 was probably the only season in which Harbaugh hasn't shown excellent QB development - at Michigan or elsewhere. It may also be the only season in which he lost the best two guys to injury (just a thought - I haven't confirmed that).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 05:02:03 PM by Anonymous Coward »

Cincydawg

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #45 on: August 29, 2018, 04:57:15 PM »
Some programs seem to find QBs who can play as freshmen, though it rarely is ideal.

ELA

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #46 on: August 29, 2018, 04:59:00 PM »
Some programs seem to find QBs who can play as freshmen, though it rarely is ideal.
We heard from multiple places how needlessly complicated the Michigan offense had been.  A complicated offense and an underperforming offensive line tends to wprk against transfers and underclassmen having early success at the QB position.
It's a new OC and a new OL coach this year.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #47 on: August 29, 2018, 05:07:41 PM »
Yeah. I'm still puzzled by Drevno. The growing narrative is that he was severely unenjoyable for even the coaches to be around, sensitive about his place in the hierarchy ... and also a bad coach insofar as the kids weren't getting it and he kept moving on anyway. 

Whether that is close to true or wishful scape goating will be partially answered this season. If it ends up true: what the heck happened? He was great at Stanford, San Fran, and USC. And I don't think the likely answer is that Michigan linemen weren't smart enough to play for him. Either he never changed and Michigan is still in trouble or he did change and the story is secret and probably interesting.

SuperMario

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #48 on: August 29, 2018, 05:08:54 PM »
We heard from multiple places how needlessly complicated the Michigan offense had been.  A complicated offense and an underperforming offensive line tends to wprk against transfers and underclassmen having early success at the QB position.
It's a new OC and a new OL coach this year.
A lot of wisdom in this post. 
Michigan 2018 - Keep It Simple Stupid.

Mdot21

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #49 on: August 29, 2018, 05:16:45 PM »
2017 was the only season in which Harbaugh hasn't shown excellent QB development - at Michigan or elsewhere. It may also be the only season in which he lost the best two guys to injury (just a thought - I haven't confirmed that).
I'd partially agree with that. Rudock was excellent in 2015. 2016 Speight was OK for 9 games but then terrible against Iowa- even before getting injured- and Speight pretty much single-handedly lost them the Ohio State game. Speight threw a pick 6 and what was essentially another pick 6 that Ohio State returned all the way to the red-zone and then after a penalty on Michigan during the return Ohio State wound up with a 1st and goal from the 4 yard line. Basically two pick 6's. There was zero improvement in Speight from 2016 to 2017. If anything he got worse. He was the sole reason Florida was in the game during the opener in 2017 as he threw back to back pick 6's.
Honestly think it says more about Speight than Harbaugh- but Harbaugh is the one who made him the starting QB and then decided to let O'Korn come transfer in. Harbaugh would've been better off starting Brandon Peters as a true frosh in 2016 and then having McCaffrey back up as a true frosh in 2017 than going with Speight and O'Korn. He does deserve some blame for that.

ELA

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #50 on: August 29, 2018, 05:17:39 PM »
Yeah. I'm still puzzled by Drevno. The growing narrative is that he was severely unenjoyable for even the coaches to be around, sensitive about his place in the hierarchy ... and also a bad coach insofar as the kids weren't getting it and he kept moving on anyway.

Whether that is close to true or wishful scape goating will be partially answered this season. If it ends up true: what the heck happened? He was great at Stanford, San Fran, and USC. And I don't think the likely answer is that Michigan linemen weren't smart enough to play for him. Either he never changed and Michigan is still in trouble or he did change and the story is secret and probably interesting.
Probably a little of both.  But as you said, it's easier to pin it all on him.  The simplest answer is easier than the right one.  Either way, a change was probably needed, and even if it wasn't, Warriner is an upgrade over just about anyone.  So even if it wasn't all him, I still expect Warriner to be better.

Mdot21

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #51 on: August 29, 2018, 05:28:03 PM »
Some programs seem to find QBs who can play as freshmen, though it rarely is ideal.
it's incredibly rare. I can't think of many times a true freshman has come in and lit it up.
It's really only happens on loaded teams where the QB had lots of support. And even then most of the time he's just a care taker or game manager. Jake Fromm was a great example of this. He threw for 176 yards a game and was attempting 19 passes a game- on average.
The only true frosh that I remember just slinging it at Michigan was Chad Henne. He walked in as an 18 year old throwing it 30+ times a game for 230+ a game. He also had Jake Long protecting him at tackle, was handing the ball off to the schools eventual all-time leading rusher Mike Hart at RB, and he was throwing to Braylon Edwards, Jason Avant, and Steve Breaston though. Jake Long was on path to an NFL HOF career until injuries destroyed his pro career. Braylon Edwards was on a similar path until he destroyed his own career by being a lazy, malcontent drunk jackass.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 05:30:54 PM by Mdot21 »

Cincydawg

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #52 on: August 29, 2018, 05:34:31 PM »
Freshmen "who can play" is not the same as "freshmen who light it up".

Matt Stafford played fairly well as a true freshman.  Aaron Murray played well as a RS frosh.  Eric Zeier did well.  Jacob Eason did well.  All of them had ups and downs of course, but I'm only talking about one program.

SuperMario

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #53 on: August 29, 2018, 05:49:25 PM »
I'd partially agree with that. Rudock was excellent in 2015. 2016 Speight was OK for 9 games but then terrible against Iowa- even before getting injured- and Speight pretty much single-handedly lost them the Ohio State game. Speight threw a pick 6 and what was essentially another pick 6 that Ohio State returned all the way to the red-zone and then after a penalty on Michigan during the return Ohio State wound up with a 1st and goal from the 4 yard line. Basically two pick 6's. There was zero improvement in Speight from 2016 to 2017. If anything he got worse. He was the sole reason Florida was in the game during the opener in 2017 as he threw back to back pick 6's.
Honestly think it says more about Speight than Harbaugh- but Harbaugh is the one who made him the starting QB and then decided to let O'Korn come transfer in. Harbaugh would've been better off starting Brandon Peters as a true frosh in 2016 and then having McCaffrey back up as a true frosh in 2017 than going with Speight and O'Korn. He does deserve some blame for that.
Did you watch all or nothing on Amazon Prime? Speight is exactly what I thought he was. Guys was not a leader and not an Alpha. I honestly cannot believe that's the guy the coaching staff went with. 

Mdot21

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2018, 06:48:54 PM »
Did you watch all or nothing on Amazon Prime? Speight is exactly what I thought he was. Guys was not a leader and not an Alpha. I honestly cannot believe that's the guy the coaching staff went with.
didn't watch the whole thing, but what I did watch I was not impressed with Speight. Or O'Korn. Seemed like coach Pep Hamilton wasn't impressed with either of them as well.
I don't particularly care if the QB isn't a leader. I just care if he's any good. Take Aaron Rodgers for example. Not really sure he's a good leader- but he is an amazing QB.
At the end of the day the guys playing with these QB's just care if the guy can play or not. I think most guys on that team knew that Speight and O'Korn couldn't play.
Speight did two things above average- he could evade pressure pretty well for a guy his size and he could also throw a pretty good deep ball. Not great at either of those things- but above average. Unfortunately he kind of sucked ass at everything else. Wasn't very good at reading defenses pre-snap or post-snap. Threw way too many WTF was that balls. Wasn't accurate on the short routes. Wasn't accurate on the intermediate routes. Way too many times you'd see passes behind or above receivers running slants or crosses. He just wasn't that good in all honesty.

Cincydawg

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Re: #14 Michigan (0-0) at #12 Notre Dame (0-0) Game Week
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2018, 07:13:20 PM »
I think leadership and respect are critical for top level college QBs.  Yes, you have exceptions where one is so talented it matters little.  Maybe Vick is an example of that.

Most college QBs need every edge they can find.  Most of the great ones are very good people.

 

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