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Topic: Weather, Climate, and Environment

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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1246 on: May 01, 2019, 12:30:41 AM »
Riffraft: the Model 3 is basically the same sticker price as a Buick or Honda Civic. And the Model 3 is not the cheapest available electric.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1247 on: May 01, 2019, 08:05:13 AM »
I don't think one can buy a Model 3 today for less than $45,000, which is more than a Honda Civic R costs, and the R is the top of the line performance minded Civic.

The real price of the Tesla is probably closer to $55 K.  If they could make and sell them for the promised $35 K price for real, they'd be able to sell them like hotcakes, in effect, while losing a lot more money.  The Chevy Bolt sells for closer to $35 K and isn't the same kind of vehicle obviously.

There is an "early adopter" characteristic in the buying public that "we" faced often back in the day when I was working.  You come out with a cool sounding new product and initial sales are great and then .... you run into a wall.  Quite a few consumers are "tradition oriented" and not sure about the latest and greatest.  This is less true for the younger crowd, but they are less able to spend $50 K on a car.


Riffraft

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1248 on: May 01, 2019, 11:09:26 AM »
I don't think one can buy a Model 3 today for less than $45,000, which is more than a Honda Civic R costs, and the R is the top of the line performance minded Civic.

The real price of the Tesla is probably closer to $55 K.  If they could make and sell them for the promised $35 K price for real, they'd be able to sell them like hotcakes, in effect, while losing a lot more money.  The Chevy Bolt sells for closer to $35 K and isn't the same kind of vehicle obviously.

There is an "early adopter" characteristic in the buying public that "we" faced often back in the day when I was working.  You come out with a cool sounding new product and initial sales are great and then .... you run into a wall.  Quite a few consumers are "tradition oriented" and not sure about the latest and greatest.  This is less true for the younger crowd, but they are less able to spend $50 K on a car.


I doubt if any of my kids have spent more than $10K on a car. I know they most I have ever spent on a car was $25K. I am quite confident that my total cost when my current car is retired will be less than a Model 3, particularly when you consider the time value of money. I may be wrong in my assumption since I haven't actually done the math, but my "accountant" intuition makes me pretty sure. 

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1249 on: May 01, 2019, 11:59:47 AM »
My point was that some EVs already exist in the $30-40K range and this is a common range for the new car buying public. It's not $5-20K but "competitively priced" means different things to different people. That EV technology is falling into the $30-40K range is already capturing a serious chunk of the "competitively priced"-minded people.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1250 on: May 01, 2019, 12:27:47 PM »
I don't think one can buy a Model 3 today for less than $45,000, which is more than a Honda Civic R costs, and the R is the top of the line performance minded Civic.

The real price of the Tesla is probably closer to $55 K.  If they could make and sell them for the promised $35 K price for real, they'd be able to sell them like hotcakes, in effect, while losing a lot more money.  The Chevy Bolt sells for closer to $35 K and isn't the same kind of vehicle obviously.

The lowest-price Tesla today* is the Standard Range Plus w/ AutoPilot, which is $39.5K plus $1200 delivery & fees. That's in black with base wheels and interior, with zero options (including paying for the full self driving** computer, which would be another $5K). 

Now, to be fair, you deduct $3750+ based on where you live for the Federal EV credit, plus anything you get from state ($6250 total here in Fed+CA rebates). That's assuming here in CA that you don't exceed the income restrictions to be eligible. I'd say most Model 3 buyers probably don't, but that most Model S or Model X buyers exceed the income requirements to be able to afford a car that expensive.

So in reality, that would bring the price of a base Model 3 down to about $35K after rebates here in CA. Still an expensive vehicle, especially without any of the options including the ability to choose color and have non-ugly wheels, but not $45K.

 * Supposedly the $35K model exists. But you can't buy it on their website, only if you call and order by phone. And from what I've been reading, if you try to order by phone, they aggressively try to upsell you to other models.

 ** Not true full self driving. Their definition of FSD is not true level 5 autonomy. 

My point was that some EVs already exist in the $30-40K range and this is a common range for the new car buying public. It's not $5-20K but "competitively priced" means different things to different people. That EV technology is falling into the $30-40K range is already capturing a serious chunk of the "competitively priced"-minded people.
My point is that what you get in the $30-40K range from other vendors is a lot more than you get from a Tesla in that range. A BMW or Audi will be a lot more luxurious. To get a Honda Civic Sedan, the absolute top model starts at $27K (and you can usually talk a dealer down--try doing that with Tesla). 

And a more important point isn't just price... It's that the company can be profitable and around in another quarter selling cars at that price. Tesla tries not to let you buy the supposedly-existing $35K Model 3 because they can't make money on it. Their overall margins are getting squeezed and they lost $700M last quarter. Based on what I'm reading, they may be weeks to months away from being unable to meet payroll if they don't get a capital raise. Their behavior is of a company that's seriously cash-strapped and desperate for ANYTHING they can get to get a few dollars in the door.

At this point, there are some pure BEVs that are at the upper end of that $30-40K range, and it's unclear whether they can be sold profitably or whether they exist primarily to help automakers stay within CAFE standards. But you're right, they do exist.

But that doesn't mean they're equivalent to the other cars in those price ranges. The bargain-basement versions are under $40K. If you want a car as well-appointed as that Civic Touring, you're going to be spending well over $40K. 

SFBadger96

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1251 on: May 01, 2019, 01:55:12 PM »
I don't know if it's changed since late December, but at that time, Tesla's "low-cost" model 3 wasn't available. The cheapest Model 3 one could buy was approximately $60K, minus rebates. Not close to the same cost as a Civic. I was in the market and I looked hard. I just couldn't justify buying one at that cost.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1252 on: May 01, 2019, 02:10:41 PM »
I don't know if it's changed since late December, but at that time, Tesla's "low-cost" model 3 wasn't available. The cheapest Model 3 one could buy was approximately $60K, minus rebates. Not close to the same cost as a Civic. I was in the market and I looked hard. I just couldn't justify buying one at that cost.
Well with Tesla, it seems that what's available and what it costs has changed back and forth a lot over the last quarter or so.

I've gotten sucked into this GD soap opera of a company, and it's just crazy. It signifies to me that they have a demand problem, and they're cutting costs and trying to offer the lower-cost versions to try to help with the demand problem. But I really just got sucked into reading about them over the last two months, so I can't speak to what was available in December.

But I'm pretty sure without a capital raise SOON, they're headed for a bankruptcy filing. 

CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1253 on: May 01, 2019, 02:26:31 PM »
It will be a sad day when there are no more of these to drive.

Shelby Cobra vs. Shelby GT500 vs. C63 AMG vs. Viper SRT-10
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1254 on: May 01, 2019, 02:42:56 PM »
It will be a sad day when there are no more of these to drive.

Shelby Cobra vs. Shelby GT500 vs. C63 AMG vs. Viper SRT-10
The Cobra has been my dream car since the first day I saw one--and not even the car, just a poster of one.

I still don't know if I'll actually fit into one of them, but I'd consider sawing my feet off if I need to in order to fit lol!

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1255 on: May 02, 2019, 03:48:49 AM »
France is cold and dreary and I'm tired.

utee94

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1256 on: May 02, 2019, 10:34:58 AM »
Yup, sounds like France in Spring-time.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1257 on: May 02, 2019, 03:29:33 PM »
Shocking, Tesla announces filings for a $2B capital raise... I guess I was right. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1258 on: May 03, 2019, 10:30:23 PM »
Musk talks a lot.

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1259 on: May 03, 2019, 10:56:20 PM »
Hyundai To Deliver 1,600 Hydrogen Fuel Cell Trucks In Europe?

https://insideevs.com/news/346862/hyundai-1600-hydrogen-trucks-europe/amp/
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