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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42588 on: March 04, 2025, 01:59:20 PM »
I think the economy matters a lot, to voters, both their perception of it, and the reality if we hit the skids.  I am pretty confident Democrats will retake the House next time out, and maybe the Senate (tougher climb).  The electorate may be in a condition of not liking anyone, but having two poor choices.

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42589 on: March 04, 2025, 01:59:35 PM »
The idea of static national borders has been something the U.S. has comitted to in the post WWII era. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that was the basis for the global coalition against Iraq in 1991. And it's one of the bases for opposing Russia's annexation of Crimea and invasion into Ukraine. Crimea was probably distinct from Ukraine in the pre-WWI days. Since then? It was Soviet, then Ukranian, but under the Soviet model it was technically Ukranian.

There is a lot of history that, if not repeating itself, is at least very familiar to Russia's recent past. By any reasonable measure, Putin thought Russia would cripple Ukraine in a matter of days. Not unlike the Winter War against Finland, a vastly larger and better equipped Russian army ran into a more committed foe than it was prepared for, which turned the war into a grind that Russia did not expect. Rather than reestablishing Russia as a great power, in many ways it has exposed Russia as a very large, very dangerous, but not very effective adversary.

Was Ukraine's flirtation with NATO part of the reason for the invasion? Perhaps, although before Russia's invasion, the U.S. was pretty clear that it wasn't interested in Ukraine's membership, among other things because Ukraine's history of corruption made it a bad bet. But more likely was Russia's (1) desire for a warm water port; and (2) Putin's belief that his military would achieve his objective in a matter of days, which--like with Crimea--would lead to a new reality that the "West" was not prepared to shed blood over. That didn't happen, and ever since Putin has needed an exit that didn't expose what a blunder he's made.

Is the expansion of NATO a bad idea? To refer back to MDT's other thread, I don't know, but in my personal life I'm risk averse and little "c" conservative. I've never understood (nor have I made the effort to understand) the need to expand NATO as we have in the post-Cold War posture. The Baltic states no doubt wanted protection from an unstable Russia. Poland, too. Did they have good reason for wanting that protection? Looks like it. Did the U.S. and other original NATO countries need to swear total war if Russia invaded those countries? I don't know.

I read an interesting thought piece in Foreign Affairs the other day focused on how a Trump presidency could help lead to an acceptable outcome for Ukraine. The author's point was that because Trump very clearly does not believe in the traditional U.S. committment to an ordered Europe, he might be a more welcome negotiating partner--one that Putin (and Xi) believe is more likely to come to the table without the standard U.S. preconditions about maintaining existing borders, which could--if Trump isn't a pushover for Putin--lead to a realistic outcome that hasn't been available because of the existing U.S. preconditions. It is an optimistic take, and maybe that's where we are headed. After last weekend, I'm not holding my breath.

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42590 on: March 04, 2025, 01:59:55 PM »
That's a bad analogy, a mischaracterization of my thoughts, and doesn't address the points I made, but no matter, because it's also not relevant. 

Russia did this.  Okay, I don't actually dispute that.  Putin would rather be invading Ukraine.  Okay, let's go with that too.

It does not necessarily follow that there are no possible other factors which may override his desire to absorb Ukraine, both carrots and sticks.  It does not account for why Putin under Trump 1.0 made no incursions into Ukraine for the only time in my adult life.

I don't see what's controversial--either philosophically or historically--about saying people can be trusted to act in their own best interests.  I further don't see anything controversial in believing there are circumstances the US can help bring about that makes not trying to conquer Ukraine in Putin's best interest.  Some of those circumstances probably sit well with some and would not sit well with others, and I'm sympathetic to that.  I certainly wouldn't want some of the options I can think of. 

If you're correct and there is no arrangement that can possibly stop Putin from invading Ukraine, what would you like the US to do about it?  Keep supporting Ukraine?  Halt all support and tell them good luck, sucks to be you?  Something in between?  Maybe it would help me understand where you're coming from if you give a positive action and not just a negation, or the problems with current proposals.

That statement right there is really all that needs to be assessed, in a nutshell. We don't all agree on what circumstances are acceptable because there is no clear answer.

Furthermore, it is your opinion and your assertion that US policy and activity wrt NATO was at least partially responsible for Russia invading Ukraine (the second time in 11 years).  Because you believe the US could have made decisions or taken actions that prevented it. That's an opinion.

It is also completely fair and possible and perhaps even more likely to state that Russia was going to invade Ukraine regardless of what the US and NATO did, because he's openly stated multiple times he wanted to do that, and then he went ahead and did it.  Twice.


FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42591 on: March 04, 2025, 02:03:00 PM »
My traditional, and my Roth --- not big fans.
well, I'm still buying Roth today and for the next couple years hopefully, so... I'm buying low
I'm also not selling at all today or hopefully, not for a couple years
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42592 on: March 04, 2025, 02:05:07 PM »
The war in Ukraine has changed — and it’s deadlier than ever. Today, drones do most of the killing, commanders say, causing about 70 percent of deaths and injuries.

This is from the NYT.  I mentioned fortifications, and static "trench" warfare earlier.  Smaller drones can't do much for a solid fortification other than direct artillery, and modern artillery tends to be much lighter than some of the guns of the past.

I visited the Maginot Line (which isn't really a line exactly).  It's very impressive, and expensive.  It might be fairly cheap and effective to build a modern version along areas more prone to invasion.  Part of the front line is the Dneiper River (or some river).  This would mean Ukraine loses territory, which seems inevitable.  I don't have enough info to know if this really makes sense.  It would be a lot of forts.

Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42593 on: March 04, 2025, 02:05:29 PM »
He turned it into a kleptocracy run by criminals.  His own personal army of mobsters.

Did it become more stable than it was before?  Maybe?

Is it in any way a civilized country that reasonable people can expect to coexist with civilized nations?

Not a fucking chance.
well I mean that country kind of already was that when he took over from Yeltsin after Yeltsin's resignation in the late 90s.

Except in the 90s it had insane levels of inflation, unemployment, and alcoholism- 5 million excess adult deaths. crumbling infrastructure, public health, and public education. out of control crime, crazy corruption schemes as state assets were being sold to insiders who became the Oligarchs for pennies on the dollar, the whole loans for shares scheme- corruption was so bad and public hated Yeltsin so much he needed help from the Oligarchs who owned the media in Russia and help from the US to rig his election in 1996- and he was so hated by the public and his own political establishment- and was also so drunk- that he was forced to resign before his term ended. 

He didn't make it more stable- he actually made it stable, as in it wasn't stable in the 90s. Russia was a straight up garbage fire dumpster fire of a disaster in the 90s. Similar to where Michigan football was under Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke. Translation: it was really fucking bad.

Russia seems to coexist with China pretty well. Is China not a civilized nation? Germany seems to coexist with Russia pretty well as well- I mean they are addicted to buying Russian oil & gas. We don't have to share cultural norms, ethics, values, religion, or have the similar forms of government with every nation to do business with them and to get a long with them. US has long been cozy to some truly fucked up regimes and leaders throughout our history. Because: 



utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42594 on: March 04, 2025, 02:11:30 PM »
China uses Russia as a hand puppet at this point, and I don't think Germany's relationship with Russia is a good example of civilized coexistence when, as you've pointed out many times, they're hugely dependent on Russian oil and energy exports.  Russia has a gun to their head, so of course they "get along" with Russia.  They have absolutely no choice.


bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42595 on: March 04, 2025, 02:11:54 PM »
Tariffs are interesting, and seem to be divisive amongst people who study and talk about them.  I've heard arguments for and against, but the truth is it only goes so far before it gets 1) very technical, 2) so wide-reaching that it feels a bit like predicting the future (never as easy as we'd like it to be), and 3) to be ultimately an opinion on what an economist believes the counterfactual to be, when considering historical examples. 

Therefore I have to plead some amount of ignorance and say "I just don't know."  (shoutout to BRAD)

When I don't know, I generally default to Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell, because out of the economists I've read, they make the most sense to me and defend their views the best, imo. 

Both of them are ultimately against tariffs and view them as a net negative, despite admitted good things that can come from them.  So that's my uninformed opinion.  I'm against them, because two guys I trust, rightly or wrongly, are against them.
They’re good at raising prices, as a basic level.

It’s one of the tricky parts of free trade. The diffuse benefits/concentrated costs challenge.

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42596 on: March 04, 2025, 02:16:07 PM »
They’re good at raising prices, as a basic level.

It’s one of the tricky parts of free trade. The diffuse benefits/concentrated costs challenge.
Yup, that's the one effect that is guaranteed.

Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42597 on: March 04, 2025, 02:19:45 PM »
Going back a while, I believe it was Kruschev who gave Crimea to Ukraine, because, well, why not?  Ukraine had a UN vote while part of the USSR oddly enough.  They were a kind of "affiliated state" of sorts.

When Nazi troops invaded Ukraine in 1941, many greeted them as liberators because ... Stalin (who wasn't Russian).  Some think had the Germans treated them decently they would have eagerly fought the Russians when in fact, then ended up often being partisans.  Germans viewed Slavs as slaves for some reason, maybe language.

Hitler had some pretty "grand ideas" of course, had his forces been able to secure the oil fields in the Caucusus in 1942, well, that would have probably changed the outcome.

It is said Russians are paranoid, but they keep getting invaded, over and over.
this is something Americans simply cannot comprehend. true horror has never really touched our shores. thank god. we had a bunch of camel jockeys hijack a couple airplanes and crash into some sky scrappers and it sent us postal in full out rage mode conquest mode invading and bombing the absolute living fuck out of the entire Middle East half way around the world.

if we had ever been invaded and some real shit actually happened to us here at home on our shores- we would never forget it and lash out like no one's business and be the most paranoid pre-emptive air striking lunatics on the entire planet earth. oh wait, we already are that. my bad.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42598 on: March 04, 2025, 02:29:01 PM »
The idea of static national borders has been something the U.S. has comitted to in the post WWII era. Right, wrong, or indifferent, that was the basis for the global coalition against Iraq in 1991. And it's one of the bases for opposing Russia's annexation of Crimea and invasion into Ukraine. Crimea was probably distinct from Ukraine in the pre-WWI days. Since then? It was Soviet, then Ukranian, but under the Soviet model it was technically Ukranian.

There is a lot of history that, if not repeating itself, is at least very familiar to Russia's recent past. By any reasonable measure, Putin thought Russia would cripple Ukraine in a matter of days. Not unlike the Winter War against Finland, a vastly larger and better equipped Russian army ran into a more committed foe than it was prepared for, which turned the war into a grind that Russia did not expect. Rather than reestablishing Russia as a great power, in many ways it has exposed Russia as a very large, very dangerous, but not very effective adversary.

Was Ukraine's flirtation with NATO part of the reason for the invasion? Perhaps, although before Russia's invasion, the U.S. was pretty clear that it wasn't interested in Ukraine's membership, among other things because Ukraine's history of corruption made it a bad bet. But more likely was Russia's (1) desire for a warm water port; and (2) Putin's belief that his military would achieve his objective in a matter of days, which--like with Crimea--would lead to a new reality that the "West" was not prepared to shed blood over. That didn't happen, and ever since Putin has needed an exit that didn't expose what a blunder he's made.

Is the expansion of NATO a bad idea? To refer back to MDT's other thread, I don't know, but in my personal life I'm risk averse and little "c" conservative. I've never understood (nor have I made the effort to understand) the need to expand NATO as we have in the post-Cold War posture. The Baltic states no doubt wanted protection from an unstable Russia. Poland, too. Did they have good reason for wanting that protection? Looks like it. Did the U.S. and other original NATO countries need to swear total war if Russia invaded those countries? I don't know.

I read an interesting thought piece in Foreign Affairs the other day focused on how a Trump presidency could help lead to an acceptable outcome for Ukraine. The author's point was that because Trump very clearly does not believe in the traditional U.S. committment to an ordered Europe, he might be a more welcome negotiating partner--one that Putin (and Xi) believe is more likely to come to the table without the standard U.S. preconditions about maintaining existing borders, which could--if Trump isn't a pushover for Putin--lead to a realistic outcome that hasn't been available because of the existing U.S. preconditions. It is an optimistic take, and maybe that's where we are headed. After last weekend, I'm not holding my breath.
Worth reading if you missed it IMHO.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42599 on: March 04, 2025, 02:30:28 PM »
"We" were invaded, our sovereign country where I reside, with resultant near complete obliteration of entire cities, like where I am at the moment.


Mdot21

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #42601 on: March 04, 2025, 02:39:38 PM »
by the way this war of the words with Canada- I am loving it. they want to cancel their trips to Florida....PLEASE DO FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. That will show the US! Do it! Please! 

these dumb maple syrup slupring monkeys come down here from Dec-April just congesting the roads and driving like absolute retards going slow in the fast lane and not using blinkers and getting all confused on the highways cause they don't know the exits or express lanes or where they are going because they are on their gps to get anywhere.

Forget tariffs, I would love it if we could deport and then ban all Canadians from coming into Florida forever.

 

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