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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41874 on: February 14, 2025, 03:07:43 PM »
FWIW, everything I’ve read about Adams never painted him as pretty far left. Seemed like more a creature of NY Democratic politics without a ton of strong ideological anchoring.
NYC politics make Israel seem simple

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41875 on: February 14, 2025, 03:09:05 PM »
Republicans think that Republicans see Democrats as misguided, Democrats see Republicans as evil.
Democrats think that Democrats see Republicans as misguided, Republicans see Democrats as evil.
FIFY.

There's plenty of evidence that both sides have plenty of partisans who see the other side as evil; and plenty who see the other side as misinformed.

ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41876 on: February 14, 2025, 03:30:49 PM »
FIFY.

There's plenty of evidence that both sides have plenty of partisans who see the other side as evil; and plenty who see the other side as misinformed.
Yup.  I mean the whole Q movement is based on the other side being evil.

The problem is controversy sells, so we only give airtime to the extremes.  AOC has never passed a bill, yet we know her name.  MTG is a total nutjob, and yet we know her name.  Does anyone know the names of the critical swing votes?  I said whether you agree or disagree with Trump's politics, the scary part of his candidacy is that he shifted American politics away from running towards the middle, is that we are SO divided that the way to win now is just to invigorate the base, and get them to turn our.  I am curious to see how the MAGA movement does without Trump, because when he isn't at the top of the ticket, it doesn't do well.  But Vance sort of mainstreamed it, and said this is the establishment Republican party now.  So the first midterms post Vance will be very telling.  If the GOP loses seats, to quote Hamilton "it's not a movement, it's a moment".  But if they hold houses, then we are seeing the biggest shift in nearly 200 years

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41877 on: February 14, 2025, 03:35:23 PM »
But most of the NGOs have to at least play ball with the local governments to be allowed to operate at all. So I'm curious what the support is for the idea that private charity is less likely to end up confiscated by warlords than government aid.

BUT there are also limits to that charitable giving. If charitable aid was so much better or efficient than government aid at doing things like addressing poverty, than presumably we wouldn't really need government aid. But we do. The power of taxation is simply much more powerful than the power of voluntary giving.

Also, traditionally (and unsurprisingly) the wealthy have been the biggest source of charitable giving, but the tax changes during the first Trump administration substantially reduced the amount that the wealthy could write off as tax deductions, with the predictable effect of reducing the amount of giving from the wealthy.

By paragraph:

Anecdotally, it's that I give monthly to a couple of organizations I've vetted as much as I can for a guy in my position, and I know they mainly operate without the consent of the government in countries they operate in.  Or what passes for government.  One of them rescues slaves, frequently in direct violation of the country's laws about slavery.  I'm also familiar with many church charity arms, Catholic, Protestant, and Evangelical, and I don't think they are dealing with governments nearly like funds that come from a government.  Objectively (well, I say that), it's that our government is going to primarily deal with other governments or NGO's, which deal with governments.  You don't have to have that step when you give money to nuns to go pass out food and water somewhere.  And as far as I can tell, they often don't.  It stands to reason that bypassing at least one government step is going to reduce the amount of hands in the cookie jar.  For example, one country I'm pretty familiar with, Ukraine, is going to rob pieces of the pie at every step and stage, because they're just that corrupt.  Ukraine isn't going to go looking for church groups and steal their funds, so having Ukraine's government approval to operate does not mean Ukraine is stealing your money.  But if those funds go through any entity of the Ukrainian government, they're going to take a cut and say thanks for being dumb enough to pass the plate in front of me.  It's a reasonable assumption to presume there are other countries work the same way.  Orphanages are the worst....absolutely sickening the way Ukraine treats its orphans.  If you go help Ukrainian orphans directly, they're not going to get in your way.....much.  If you give to the Ukrainian orphanages, or the entities of government that controls their orphanages, you've wasted your money, those poor kids are never getting a dime's benefit from it.  It will go to a bureaucrat's new car. 

The "power" of taxation is less important than the "effectiveness" of taxation.  This is a longer conversation than I can type here, so if we ever meet I'd be happy to start at the basic level I'd need to in order to make a case.  Without much historical or philosophical support:  We needed government aid so much less in the past, and the increased "necessity" correlates to a society increasingly unmoored from a Christian ethos.  i.e., people are less and less willing to help their neighbor, and I'd rather be spearheading a movement for Christian values than handing more power and money to the government.  But mostly it's a matter of framing the question correctly.  You're saying if charitable aid were more efficient than the government, then we wouldn't need government aid.  That does not necessarily follow.  Being more efficient does not mean sufficient for the challenge, so at best that's an argument that government taxation, presumably for charity, is necessary, but not an argument that it's more efficient.  And I've seen no evidence to suggest the government is efficient at anything.  If private charity is more efficient, then would less taxation mean more charitable aid needs are met?  Your guess is as good as mine, but it's a reasonable assumption. 

I'm not familiar with the charity cap you're talking about, so I don't know if that was something in the tax code, a congressional law that was passed, or an EO, or what.  More relevant, I don't know specifically what kind of giving was intended to be curbed, and what is being curbed.  As in, were there wealthy people who were exploiting loopholes meant for charitable giving and they were using the deductions another way?  If it's really a matter of limiting charitable contribution write-offs, I'd need to know the rationale, because on its face that seems dumb, and without knowing more, I'd be in favor of restoring the bigger write-offs, and the charitable contributions that go with them.  But your first point was an important one.  Wealthy people give more.  That's exactly my point.  The less the government takes from us, the more we give.  It makes no sense to say "wealthy people give more" and also say "the government should take more from us for charitable redistribution." 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 03:43:33 PM by MikeDeTiger »

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41878 on: February 14, 2025, 03:35:36 PM »
I'll take it a step further and give you my (moderately left leaning by mainstream Democrat standards) perspective. I think most people (on both sides) view politics through the information they have accumulated through years of life experience, with a heavy dose of tribalism (which impacts which information you choose to credit). Most of those people have genuinely good intentions when they go to the voting booth (or take part in whatever other political actions they participate in).

Some people on both sides are in it for themselves. Strictly. Some of them are so in it for themselves that "evil" is an appropriate word to describe them. However, to actually be "evil" you need to have the power to impact other people. Political power comes in many forms: the most obvious is being in charge of the government, but the ability to influence people (even when in the minority) is also a form of political power. There are people who weild their power for evil, even when they are not actually making policy.

I think empathy is one of the strongest human emotions (though not nearly as strong as self-preservation). The most likely way to change someone's mind over a political issue is to appeal to their empathy, not their logic. 

Myself a creature of neoclassical little-l liberal thinking, I believe in what I think of as individual freedom and individual dignity. Those are broad concepts and anytime a government acts it is liable to somehow infringe on one or the other or both. The question is for what purpose? If that purpose is to further entrench the powerful's power, that can trend towards evil. But I also think that disagreements over the impact of various things: taxes, education policy, immigration policy, military policy, foreign policy, criminal justic policy--when those disagreements are based in trying to find ways to genuinely improve the nation as a whole--are hard to qualify as evil. But there is a point at which a lack of evidence supporting the argument, or the total lack of compassion for individual freedom and dignity makes it hard to distinguish between hard ball politics and actual evil.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41879 on: February 14, 2025, 03:36:43 PM »
The problem is controversy sells, so we only give airtime to the extremes.  AOC has never passed a bill, yet we know her name.  MTG is a total nutjob, and yet we know her name.  Does anyone know the names of the critical swing votes?  I said whether you agree or disagree with Trump's politics, the scary part of his candidacy is that he shifted American politics away from running towards the middle, is that we are SO divided that the way to win now is just to invigorate the base, and get them to turn our.  I am curious to see how the MAGA movement does without Trump, because when he isn't at the top of the ticket, it doesn't do well.  But Vance sort of mainstreamed it, and said this is the establishment Republican party now.  So the first midterms post Vance will be very telling.  If the GOP loses seats, to quote Hamilton "it's not a movement, it's a moment".  But if they hold houses, then we are seeing the biggest shift in nearly 200 years
I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately.  A lot of people blame Trump.  A lot of people blame social media.  I could make a case that calling the other side "deplorable" is a major contributing factor.  

That said, I actually think it predates all of that by quite a bit.  I'd like to kick my theory around with @SFBadger96 and a few others of you who understand politics.  Would it be alright to start a thread for that discussion.  The attempt would be to keep it more of an academic "Political Science" observation rather than a get-in-the-mud political argument.  

ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41880 on: February 14, 2025, 03:39:25 PM »
Absolutely.  I find that far more interesting

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41881 on: February 14, 2025, 03:58:10 PM »
FIFY.

There's plenty of evidence that both sides have plenty of partisans who see the other side as evil; and plenty who see the other side as misinformed.

You're correct.  

God only knows how much it pains me to agree with you :93:

Here's the thing.  To some extent, both sides make the same claims, but that doesn't warrant any sort of relativism and throwing our hands up and saying "Well who even knows?"  There is evil, most everyone agrees on that, the question is what is it, what causes it, and who's doing it?  I abhor the popular centrist virtue signaling mindset that has taken over a significant portion of the population, as if saying "Well, there's merits to both sides" has any bearing on the verity of any truth-claim from either side.  Maybe both sides do have a point on some issues.  But also, maybe they don't.  Maybe something is evil, and someone is misguided about it.  If there's one thing worth talking about, it's about how we know right and wrong, who gets to decide what is right and wrong, and how "nobody" is the dumbest answer, with the most terrifying consequences, historically speaking.  

That said, there are a number of issues I do consider merely political differences, and while I think they either ultimately hinder something good or help something bad, I don't consider people who hold a different view bad, or evil.  It's entirely reasonable to have the same priorities, maybe even in the same order, but disagree on how to achieve them.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41882 on: February 14, 2025, 04:08:24 PM »
It's a total quid pro quo that Trump's own appointees don't feel comfortable going with.  Eventually some Fordham law clerk is going to find themselves as the lead prosecutor for the SDNY after everyone above them refuses to be complicit in this.

And honestly, they didn't need to do it.  All this does is make their job easier.  It doesn't allow them to do things they otherwise couldn't.  They could still do it, it might just take longer, for zero political gain.  All of the other noise is just that, noise.  he is very good at keeping you focused on the left hand, while the right hand does real work.  He changed the name of a mountain back to what it was.  Whatever.  he changed the name of the Gulf of Mexico.  That keeps the "resistance" occupied with a lot of nothingness.  But this is actually concerning. 

This is a thing that conservatives are going to have to come to terms with.  

You've mentioned this thing here that I don't know a lot about, but assuming a worst-case scenario for the sake of using it as an example, there are going to be things that Trump does that should not make conservatives happy.  The idea that everything he does is going to be wonderful for any viewpoint is....naive, I think.  There are a few things in the Biden administration I can point to that I agreed with, and really, wouldn't it be equally bizarre if a guy managed to get every single thing wrong from my point of view?

The urge to paint people into neat boxes is strong.  I expect (hope) that by the end of Trump's second term, I'll have liked and agreed with far more than I disagreed with.  But stuff like this Adams thing should still be on the table to call out and criticize (again, I'm assuming it should be criticized).  

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41883 on: February 14, 2025, 04:23:24 PM »
We are dangerously close to agreeing on a lot of things today. What's interesting is that we both hate the "both sides" argument. And each of us probably thinks that line of thinking is more advantageous to the other side than our own. Perhaps it is ironic to point that out.

ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41884 on: February 14, 2025, 04:34:00 PM »
This is a thing that conservatives are going to have to come to terms with. 

You've mentioned this thing here that I don't know a lot about, but assuming a worst-case scenario for the sake of using it as an example, there are going to be things that Trump does that should not make conservatives happy.  The idea that everything he does is going to be wonderful for any viewpoint is....naive, I think.  There are a few things in the Biden administration I can point to that I agreed with, and really, wouldn't it be equally bizarre if a guy managed to get every single thing wrong from my point of view?

The urge to paint people into neat boxes is strong.  I expect (hope) that by the end of Trump's second term, I'll have liked and agreed with far more than I disagreed with.  But stuff like this Adams thing should still be on the table to call out and criticize (again, I'm assuming it should be criticized). 
I think the most dangerous thing with this being team sports is the unwillingness to challenge your own party.  Biden sucked.  Guess who else sucks?  Trump.  When it turns into team sports, there is no check on an increasing executive power

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41885 on: February 14, 2025, 04:37:04 PM »
I've actually been thinking about this a lot lately.  A lot of people blame Trump.  A lot of people blame social media.  I could make a case that calling the other side "deplorable" is a major contributing factor. 

That said, I actually think it predates all of that by quite a bit.  I'd like to kick my theory around with @SFBadger96 and a few others of you who understand politics.  Would it be alright to start a thread for that discussion.  The attempt would be to keep it more of an academic "Political Science" observation rather than a get-in-the-mud political argument. 
Interesting thoughts.  The bolded part. 
Seems to me, the last election was a hard stop of American politics running HARD toward the left.  The way- the only way- to halt a movement to the far left, is a move to the right-which takes everything TOWARDS the middle.

either way, we should be able to discuss the issues of they day- including politics- like reasonable adults, without name calling and vitriol. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41886 on: February 14, 2025, 04:47:02 PM »
Interesting thoughts.  The bolded part. 
Seems to me, the last election was a hard stop of American politics running HARD toward the left.  The way- the only way- to halt a movement to the far left, is a move to the right-which takes everything TOWARDS the middle.

either way, we should be able to discuss the issues of they day- including politics- like reasonable adults, without name calling and vitriol.
No, the answer towards running hard towards the left was running hard towards the right, and like I said, that's what will be our downfall.  The DNC didn't realize how much we hated Hillary, so the far right won.  Then the DNC said, here's a placeholder, and let us figure it out.  America was on board.  Then they asked us to either re-up the placeholder, or vote a far left candidate, and we swung back to the far right candidate we had already rejected.  Going forward I assume we are going to be voting for the far left vs. the far right.  And we generally hate the party in power, so I assume in 2028 we will vote for whatever far left candidate we throw up.  And as we constantly back out of agreements, depending on who is in power, our credit falls, and we become an unreliable power

jgvol

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #41887 on: February 14, 2025, 04:58:17 PM »
No, the answer towards running hard towards the left was running hard towards the right, and like I said, that's what will be our downfall.  The DNC didn't realize how much we hated Hillary, so the far right won.  Then the DNC said, here's a placeholder, and let us figure it out.  America was on board.  Then they asked us to either re-up the placeholder, or vote a far left candidate, and we swung back to the far right candidate we had already rejected.  Going forward I assume we are going to be voting for the far left vs. the far right.  And we generally hate the party in power, so I assume in 2028 we will vote for whatever far left candidate we throw up.  And as we constantly back out of agreements, depending on who is in power, our credit falls, and we become an unreliable power

I see and hear this a lot.  What is far right these days?  From my perspective, the Right currently is Bill Clinton, perhaps even left of him.

The left has towed the rope, and the country is decidedly way further left than 30 years ago. 

Can anyone say what is further right now than 30 years ago?  I have a laundry list of topics where we are miles left of where we were 30 years ago.

 

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