header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

 (Read 2961978 times)

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 9344
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43708 on: April 22, 2025, 08:33:17 AM »
My theory on negative campaigning and I'd be interested in the thoughts of others but particularly @SFBadger96 who actually has campaign experience. 

In a local race I think that negative campaigning is not effective.  The issue is that too many people know both candidates or at least know somebody that knows somebody that knows each candidate.  Consequently, if I'm running against @SFBadger96 for a seat on City Council and he calls me a dirty-rotten-so-and-so, I think that blows back in his face because there are enough people in our local Council Ward that say (basically):
  • Hey wait a minute, I met @medinabuckeye1 at the grocery store, he seems like a nice guy, or
  • Hey wait a minute, my kids played soccer with @medinabuckeye1 's kids, he seems like a nice guy, or
  • Hey wait a minute, my parents go to church with @medinabuckeye1 's parents, they seem like a nice family, or
  • etc. 
However, as races become less local, the impact of this is diluted until it becomes statistically irrelevant.  So if I'm running against @SFBadger96 for Congress in a district of ~800k people there simply aren't enough people who know either of us let alone both of us to where there is any significant blowback from negative campaigning.  Also, there are a LOT of people who think that all politicians are dirty so we call each other dirty-rotten-so-and-so's, a nontrivial portion of the electorate thinks we are BOTH right. 

By the time you get to the Presidential level it is possible that a majority or at least a plurality believe that they are both dirty/crappy/whatever so negative campaigning is just a given. 

I think that survives on a really local race, but it gets sized out pretty fast. If you have a community of like 7000 people and political engagement isn’t super high, then all you need is a couple of well targeted but realistic, seeming attacks and you can galvanize enough people who think one of you guys is a dirty, rotten so and so.

Swing a few hundred votes and you turn things.

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43709 on: April 22, 2025, 09:17:33 AM »
I think that survives on a really local race, but it gets sized out pretty fast. If you have a community of like 7000 people and political engagement isn’t super high, then all you need is a couple of well targeted but realistic, seeming attacks and you can galvanize enough people who think one of you guys is a dirty, rotten so and so.

Swing a few hundred votes and you turn things.
I agree that it gets sized out pretty fast but I'm not sure how fast.  

In my experience, in a REALLY local race the deciding factors tend to be things like:
  • Being from the area vs having moved in.  People from the area tend to have more acquaintances in the area.  
  • Having a larger family, especially if your family is from the area.  
  • Being active in larger social organizations (churches, sports associations, clubs, etc).  

That gets, as you put it "sized out" pretty quick because nobody has more than say 1,500 acquaintances.  1,500 in a race with 7,000 voters is 20% so lets say you have a partisan advantage of 60:40 but you are a complete carpetbagger (just moved here to run) and I am from the area, have a large family from the area, and am active in larger social organizations, etc.  The baseline is that you would win 60:40 or:
But then the acquaintances come into play.  For this example you have none and I have 1,500 but:
  • 600 of the 1,500 (40%) would have voted for me anyway so that leaves
  • 900 of the 1,500 (60%) would have voted for you.  
If I pick up those 900, then the new votes are:
So now I win 53%-47%.  

Your comment about swinging a few hundred votes is correct but it is the negative campaigning that scales while the friends and acquaintances don't.  Let's say that 7,000 is a Ward Council race.  Now lets say there are four wards and instead of a Ward Council seat we are running for an at-large Council seat or Mayor.  Now the 60:40 baseline is:
Even if I actually swung 1,500 voters that would only make my loss closer:
That is still a 55-45 loss for me.  



Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82585
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43710 on: April 22, 2025, 09:23:45 AM »
We had 3300 residents where I lived in Cincy.  I'd guess 2,500 were of voting age, and most folks voted, call it 2,200 voting in a local election.  I had a friend who ran for mayor, with two other candidates.  It turned out that one of the other candidates had "extended" family in the village, hundreds, all voting for him.  It wasn't close.  She hadn't realized this, somehow.  (I didn't know it myself.)

The elected mayor was a fine fellow I thought, he had been head of the State Senate in Ohio before retiring.  He was pretty conservative but in a local election I don't think that was relevant (much).  I just checked, he's still mayor there.

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43711 on: April 22, 2025, 10:07:46 AM »
We had 3300 residents where I lived in Cincy.  I'd guess 2,500 were of voting age, and most folks voted, call it 2,200 voting in a local election.  I had a friend who ran for mayor, with two other candidates.  It turned out that one of the other candidates had "extended" family in the village, hundreds, all voting for him.  It wasn't close.  She hadn't realized this, somehow.  (I didn't know it myself.)

The elected mayor was a fine fellow I thought, he had been head of the State Senate in Ohio before retiring.  He was pretty conservative but in a local election I don't think that was relevant (much).  I just checked, he's still mayor there.
In that small of an election it doesn't take much.  

Lets say one of the three went to the local HS and played four years of HS Football on a team of say 60 guys.  That isn't just 60 guys, it is:
  • 15 from the class three years ahead (Seniors when he was a Freshman)
  • 15 from the class two years ahead (Seniors when he was a Sophomore)
  • 15 from the class ahead (Seniors when he was a Junior)
  • 15 from his own class
  • 15 from the class behind (Juniors when he was a Senior)
  • 15 from two classes behind (Sophomores when he was a Senior)
  • 15 from three classes behind (Freshman when he was a Senior)
  • 105 total guys that he played football with
In a race with 2,200 voters the average for three candidates is 733.  That could easily put that guy at 800 and the other two at 700.  

600 friends and acquaintances would (randomly) come 200 from each candidate's pool so that makes it 1,133 for the local guy and 533 each for the non-locals.  Now our local guy is picking up an absolute majority and overcoming it is effectively impossible regardless of how effective the other candidates' campaigns are.  


SFBadger96

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1841
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43712 on: April 22, 2025, 12:20:51 PM »
I think really since the Tea Party rise, the Republicans have been MUCH better about presenting a single unified message.

Obama was a good enough politician that he overcame it, but in general the Democrats have been a mess.  One time they won by saying "we get you hate Trump, so give us a sec to figure it out", and then they were like "oh, so run Biden again, and have everyone campaign on not being Trump!"

I'm actually hoping this starts a backlash around running negative, when a whole party ran on a platform that was literally "not him".
I would go back at least as far as Newt Gingrich's "Contract with America," and maybe further than that. As long as I can remember--and my political memories go back to the mid-to-late 80s--started voting in 1992--Democrats have complained internally about a lack of message discipline / unity as compared to the Republicans. I think part of the problem is the nature of "liberal" vs. "conservative." Liberal, by definition, seeks change; conservative seeks maintenance of the status quo (I'm painting with a broad brush, and, to be honest, I'm not sure that "conservative" is an accurate definition of the current state of the Republican party--but I'm a Democrat, so my opinion on that is highly suspect). It's naturally easier to coalesce around a message of don't screw things up, as opposed to agreeing on what kind of change is the right kind of change. The flip side of that is that people generally do want change, it's just a question of what kind of change.

Negative Campaigning:
Negative campaigning is very effective, that's why it's used. Its primary use is to dissuade voters from a candidate they haven't already picked, and it works. However, it only works if the voter is disconnected from the candidate, and the message is one that resonates with the audience. Local races are rarely about national issues, so your negative campaign needs to be about something like allowing a porn shop next to a kindergarten, or allowing those evil people in Columbus (pick your state capitol) to take away your local control. That's hard to pull off effectively. If I know candidate x, even just from running into her at the grocery store, it's going to be harder for me to believe that she's advocating for the porn shop next to the school. Surprisingly, even at the local level, there are plenty of people who don't know the candidates well and are susceptible to the negative campaigning. But if a candidate really leans into it, they need to be prepared for the blowback; there will be a lot of voters who do know the other person quite well, and see the negative campaigning as unseemly and tell their friends such. That can be pretty damaging for the candidate who runs the ads. As a result, in my area, PACs do most of it, and there isn't a lot at the super local level (city council districts), but there is at the county level (we call them County Supervisors, but I know they have different names in different places). 
I think that is a long way of saying that I agree with Medina about negative campaigning's effectiveness.
Also, one person's "negative campaign" is another person's "running on the issues." I don't see any way to curtail it that can survive the 1st Amendment. I can live with that. 

MikeDeTiger

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 4349
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43713 on: April 22, 2025, 12:30:19 PM »
I would go back at least as far as Newt Gingrich's "Contract with America," and maybe further than that. As long as I can remember--and my political memories go back to the mid-to-late 80s--started voting in 1992--Democrats have complained internally about a lack of message discipline / unity as compared to the Republicans. I think part of the problem is the nature of "liberal" vs. "conservative." Liberal, by definition, seeks change; conservative seeks maintenance of the status quo (I'm painting with a broad brush, and, to be honest, I'm not sure that "conservative" is an accurate definition of the current state of the Republican party--but I'm a Democrat, so my opinion on that is highly suspect). It's naturally easier to coalesce around a message of don't screw things up, as opposed to agreeing on what kind of change is the right kind of change. The flip side of that is that people generally do want change, it's just a question of what kind of change.

That is a fascinating take, viewed by me, someone who has frequently charged Republicans with only being against something, and not offering enough positive vision over the last 16ish years.

jgvol

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 5848
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43714 on: April 22, 2025, 12:33:48 PM »
That is a fascinating take, viewed by me, someone who has frequently charged Republicans with only being against something, and not offering enough positive vision over the last 16ish years.

I am fascinated as well.  It certainly runs counter to how "we" think --- pre-Trump for sure.

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 22218
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43715 on: April 22, 2025, 12:36:07 PM »
I'm not sure advocating "change" vs. "status quo" as a "liberal" or "progressive" party is the main issue.

I think it's more related to the path the Dems have chosen to try and be the "anti-Republicans" and not really have their own identity.  In an attempt to be "all things to everyone" (other than Republicans) they're confusing and alienating some of their traditional base.  For example, pushing a heavily trans-rights agenda on its face, is a good thing, IMO. I support trans rights and I support LBGTQ+ in general.  But when it means that people who represent your party are vocally advocating for biological males to be included in women's sports and to be allowed to undress in women's locker rooms, now you're starting to piss off the female feminists who have historically been an important part of your party and your message.  And what's more, the more militant of those folks are calling out women who are espousing classically feminist views, as being close-minded and trans-phobic and then one of the favorite words of the militant left-- "fascist."  It's pretty clear those idiots have no idea what that word even means but they love to throw it around.

That's just one example, but there are others. There's the case of a very vocal minority that come out in support of terrorist organizations like Hamas, that are also doing the party no favors.  But in the name of "inclusiveness" the Democrats have backed themselves into a corner where they sometimes get stuck defending such views and behaviors, which not only makes them easy targets for Republicans but also alienates plenty of people that might otherwise agree with or be sympathetic to the party platform.


Just some of my thoughts on what's happened, as an outside observer that socially leans more left than right.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2025, 12:41:53 PM by utee94 »

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82585
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43716 on: April 22, 2025, 12:39:26 PM »
Democrats do complain about "message unity", and so do Republicans.  

My partial definition of a liberal is a person who looks to government for remedies (more like how Europe operates).  See a problem?  Start a government program.

That's not to say no Republican ever does that, they just usually see different remedies, like tariffs of late.

medinabuckeye1

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 10620
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43717 on: April 22, 2025, 12:40:38 PM »
I would go back at least as far as Newt Gingrich's "Contract with America," and maybe further than that. As long as I can remember--and my political memories go back to the mid-to-late 80s--started voting in 1992--Democrats have complained internally about a lack of message discipline / unity as compared to the Republicans. I think part of the problem is the nature of "liberal" vs. "conservative." Liberal, by definition, seeks change; conservative seeks maintenance of the status quo (I'm painting with a broad brush, and, to be honest, I'm not sure that "conservative" is an accurate definition of the current state of the Republican party--but I'm a Democrat, so my opinion on that is highly suspect). It's naturally easier to coalesce around a message of don't screw things up, as opposed to agreeing on what kind of change is the right kind of change. The flip side of that is that people generally do want change, it's just a question of what kind of change.
A lot of Republicans would say the opposite. @MikeDeTiger more-or-less did say the opposite.

Here is the reason, IMHO:
We all believe that our side is right or else we wouldn't be on that side. Consequently, when our side wins we don't go looking for reasons because we don't need an explanation it is just that the right side won. However, when the other side wins we need an explanation because we view them as wrong so we explain it with things like "better messaging" or whatever.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 82585
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43718 on: April 22, 2025, 12:41:05 PM »
I'm not sure advocating "change" vs. "status quo" as a "liberal" or "progressive" party is the main issue.
In my mind, both parties have been taken over by a relative minority of very strident voices.  I think most of "us" are somewhere in the middle, and that voice is largely suppressed in political theater these days.

SFBadger96

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1841
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43719 on: April 22, 2025, 01:05:45 PM »
A lot of Republicans would say the opposite. @MikeDeTiger more-or-less did say the opposite.

Here is the reason, IMHO:
We all believe that our side is right or else we wouldn't be on that side. Consequently, when our side wins we don't go looking for reasons because we don't need an explanation it is just that the right side won. However, when the other side wins we need an explanation because we view them as wrong so we explain it with things like "better messaging" or whatever.
Fair. 

SFBadger96

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1841
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43720 on: April 22, 2025, 01:13:27 PM »
I think it's more related to the path the Dems have chosen to try and be the "anti-Republicans" and not really have their own identity.  In an attempt to be "all things to everyone" (other than Republicans) they're confusing and alienating some of their traditional base.  For example, pushing a heavily trans-rights agenda on its face, is a good thing, IMO. I support trans rights and I support LBGTQ+ in general.  But when it means that people who represent your party are vocally advocating for biological males to be included in women's sports and to be allowed to undress in women's locker rooms, now you're starting to piss off the female feminists who have historically been an important part of your party and your message.  And what's more, the more militant of those folks are calling out women who are espousing classically feminist views, as being close-minded and trans-phobic and then one of the favorite words of the militant left-- "fascist."  It's pretty clear those idiots have no idea what that word even means but they love to throw it around.

That's just one example, but there are others.
Voter ID laws are another one. (See Wisconsin elections where Democratic candidate won the Supreme Court race, but voter ID law passed overwhelmingly.) 
I've promised a rant about the trans issue--and I will deliver--but not today or this week, or even this month. Work is that way right now. Maybe I'll have it ready by Pride weekend.
Both of these are issues that--I think--once someone digs into the details (and shares my political leaning), it's very hard to concede the argument to the simplistic, popularly held view. That said, it's an argument that is very unlikely to win people over because it requires digging in, where the issue feels straightforward on its face. AND--at least on the trans issue--the trans rights people do need to be more willing to agree to/recognize limitations.

Honestbuckeye

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6918
  • Liked:
Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43721 on: April 22, 2025, 01:18:33 PM »
I'm not sure advocating "change" vs. "status quo" as a "liberal" or "progressive" party is the main issue.

I think it's more related to the path the Dems have chosen to try and be the "anti-Republicans" and not really have their own identity.  In an attempt to be "all things to everyone" (other than Republicans) they're confusing and alienating some of their traditional base.  For example, pushing a heavily trans-rights agenda on its face, is a good thing, IMO. I support trans rights and I support LBGTQ+ in general.  But when it means that people who represent your party are vocally advocating for biological males to be included in women's sports and to be allowed to undress in women's locker rooms, now you're starting to piss off the female feminists who have historically been an important part of your party and your message.  And what's more, the more militant of those folks are calling out women who are espousing classically feminist views, as being close-minded and trans-phobic and then one of the favorite words of the militant left-- "fascist."  It's pretty clear those idiots have no idea what that word even means but they love to throw it around.

That's just one example, but there are others. There's the case of a very vocal minority that come out in support of terrorist organizations like Hamas, that are also doing the party no favors.  But in the name of "inclusiveness" the Democrats have backed themselves into a corner where they sometimes get stuck defending such views and behaviors, which not only makes them easy targets for Republicans but also alienates plenty of people that might otherwise agree with or be sympathetic to the party platform.


Just some of my thoughts on what's happened, as an outside observer that socially leans more left than right.

bingo!!
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.