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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37968 on: October 15, 2024, 08:22:45 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on October 15, 2024, 04:12:12 AM
https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/4182865-yes-late-term-abortions-are-real-and-they-happen-every-day/
You know, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say you probably shouldn’t trust that person on this particular topic.

I’m not saying that this isn’t a real thing. But I’m gonna need to see some real data on that.
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37969 on: October 15, 2024, 08:34:11 AM »
RvW needed to be overturned.

Even the late, very liberal RGB said as much.

It was a flawed decision.

I wish it were not politicized.

Florida law is 6 weeks. I think that's too short, but my wife doesn't. She says you can feel movement at that point. I have to believe her. 

Men can't get pregnant (according to any sane person), so it's tough to argue the point with any woman who has given birth.
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bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37970 on: October 15, 2024, 08:49:03 AM »
Quote from: Gigem on October 14, 2024, 10:10:13 PM
One side believes strongly that abortion murders unborn babies.  Full stop.

The other side believes that it’s a woman’s right to choose. 

You can definitely argue some sort of middle ground, where most people would be ok with it as long as it’s before “x” timeframe, and the other side thinks it would be ok up to the 9th month. I think it’s been well established that most Americans would look the other way as long as it’s done somewhere around 2-3 months.  
I find this particular part fascinating. As you said, the cluster of people who believe there should be absolutely no abortion is small and getting smaller. So in theory could just be a bit of a middle ground conversation. 

But because of the way the battle lines were drawn, every step toward limitation was treated by both sides as a first step toward outright abolition. Like every 15 week ban was not because the people who were pushing it wanted abortions up to 15 weeks. It was because they wanted to lay the groundwork for less and this was a beachhead. And likewise, pro-abortion folks have pushed certain laws that are expansive enough as to be distasteful or amoral to most people because they believe is stands as a bulwark. 

I honestly think if you could lock it at 15 weeks, have some case by case exceptions for a bit later on the reap and incest front. And some common sense health related flexibility that extends much later into pregnancy, you have a framework that most people would be good with. You could do even better dealing with the core issues with a process of expansive sex education, but that would raise other concerns for some folks. Plus, creating much better systems of family services and entirely trying to solve problems with the foster care system as a sign that this is an actual moral imperative and not something else.

It has also been interesting the way certain state governments have worked to create softer ways to block abortion access, like building in delays of creating nonsensical standards. Plus lot of states won’t actually ban it, because that would be politically possibly, but they limited to the point that it’s almost functionally impossible to get one.
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bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37971 on: October 15, 2024, 08:54:38 AM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on October 15, 2024, 08:34:11 AM
RvW needed to be overturned.

Even the late, very liberal RGB said as much.

It was a flawed decision.

I wish it were not politicized.

Florida law is 6 weeks. I think that's too short, but my wife doesn't. She says you can feel movement at that point. I have to believe her.

Men can't get pregnant (according to any sane person), so it's tough to argue the point with any woman who has given birth.
I don’t know that it “needed to be overturned.” I think she said it was A poor decision because it was so vulnerable, not because it needed to be.

Qualified immunity and civil at forfeiture are probably far more flawed things that need to be re-examined, torn down and either eliminated or reimagined but alas, they are not.

I get the logic of being able to potentially feel movement at six weeks, But I think that’s still creates too tight of a window. Even if you are aware of that point, which it seems like not everyone is, it probably creates too tight of a decision timeline and the potential for practical or government-induced delays.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2024, 09:00:21 AM by bayareabadger »
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37972 on: October 15, 2024, 08:55:16 AM »
Why Is the Pentagon Buying $12 Billion Worth of Bombs and Missiles From Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and RTX? (msn.com)

Presumably, because the Pentagon has an annual budget, and if it doesn't spend its budget before the year is over, Congress might get the impression that it doesn't need as much money next fiscal year -- and might cut the budget.
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FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37973 on: October 15, 2024, 09:07:53 AM »
can always give them to Israel 
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37974 on: October 15, 2024, 09:15:59 AM »
Or pay down some debt.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37975 on: October 15, 2024, 09:16:11 AM »
Quote from: bayareabadger on October 15, 2024, 08:22:45 AM
You know, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say you probably shouldn’t trust that person on this particular topic.

I’m not saying that this isn’t a real thing. But I’m gonna need to see some real data on that.
I don’t trust any of these things.  
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37976 on: October 15, 2024, 09:27:54 AM »
A lot,of,folks say it should be up to the woman and her doctor, period.  When asked if  that include post viability, they repeat the above.

This is a pretty standard response.
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37977 on: October 15, 2024, 09:30:01 AM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on October 15, 2024, 09:16:11 AM
I don’t trust any of these things. 
What the data says about abortion in the U.S. | Pew Research Center

1% in the third term (21 weeks) and 6% in the second term (14-20 weeks).

7% after clear viability is too much, unless the mother's life was in danger.

Are these numbers real? They are from the CDC, so...
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GopherRock

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37978 on: October 15, 2024, 09:32:56 AM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on October 15, 2024, 08:55:16 AM
Why Is the Pentagon Buying $12 Billion Worth of Bombs and Missiles From Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and RTX? (msn.com)

Presumably, because the Pentagon has an annual budget, and if it doesn't spend its budget before the year is over, Congress might get the impression that it doesn't need as much money next fiscal year -- and might cut the budget.
Killing Russians is expensive.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37979 on: October 15, 2024, 09:34:02 AM »
Pew is usually good. 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37980 on: October 15, 2024, 10:05:09 AM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on October 15, 2024, 09:27:54 AM
A lot,of,folks say it should be up to the woman and her doctor, period.  When asked if  that include post viability, they repeat the above.

This is a pretty standard response.
I'd echo @bayareabadger and say that I'm not sure most of them actually believe that, but it's all down to the way the battle lines are drawn. 

There's one side that says it's always murder and must be outlawed entirely. And every attempt to restrict is one step in that direction, but they view it as only a step, not a destination. The destination is no legal abortions, ever.

The other side knows the first side's intentions, and refuse to ever let them have a single step because they know that the other side views it as only a step. So ANY capitulation at all is unacceptable to them, because they know it's not a standing compromise that will be achieved--the other side will take that step and then advocate for the next one. So if you want to preserve the compromise position, you have to be hard-line at defending a place far beyond the compromise position. 

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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37981 on: October 15, 2024, 10:25:50 AM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on October 15, 2024, 09:34:02 AM
Pew is usually good.
It is, which is why I cited it.

I just don't think that I can trust data coming out of the CDC. They are forever tainted.
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