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Topic: Helmet Teams -- who are they?

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847badgerfan

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2023, 11:29:12 AM »
Related to that, and @SFBadger96 's post touches on this is something @ELA said years ago in one of these discussions which is that "Helmet" teams can quickly recover from a period of sucking.

Texas has generally sucked for a while but a big reason that I consider them a helmet is that if they get the right coach (they might already have him), they are back.

Michigan generally sucked for the better part of two decades from 1951-1968, hired Bo in 1969, and played a RB for the NC in 1971.

Alabama went through a lot of irrelevance between Stallings and Saban and look at them now.
Oklahoma after Switzer. Tennessee after Fulmer. Florida after Meyer. USC. PSU. The list goes on and on.
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Gigem

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2023, 11:31:29 AM »
Huh?  Notre Dame has made it into the CFP twice, including as recently as 2020/2021.


Boy, you sure know how to pour the salt in the wound on that one don't ya?  

utee94

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2023, 11:56:50 AM »
Boy, you sure know how to pour the salt in the wound on that one don't ya? 
Heh... my apologies.  Was certainly not my intent.  But of course, it could be considered as a very real, direct, and recent example, of the power of Helmetosity.


medinabuckeye1

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2023, 01:34:24 PM »
Oklahoma after Switzer. Tennessee after Fulmer. Florida after Meyer. USC. PSU. The list goes on and on.
Yep, Ohio State is really the only of those typically considered "helmets" that hasn't demonstrated an ability to recover from a period of prolonged irrelevance only because the Buckeyes have been fortunate enough to not really have any prolonged periods of irrelevance in the last 80+ years.  The closest they've come:

  • At the dawn of the AP Poll (1936) the Buckeyes hadn't ever been REALLY good but within a few years they won their first NC in 1942.  
  • Post-war the Buckeyes were pretty mediocre but they won an NC in 1942, went undefeated and were called "Civilian National Champions" in 1944, then won again in 1954 so it wasn't all that long.  
  • Earle 9-3 Bruce lost three games each year for a long stretch in the 1980's and that isn't great but 9-3 also isn't awful so it isn't like they were sub .500 irrelevant they were just not elite.  Also some of those they lost three games early and were out of the conversation but others like 1980 they went into the Michigan game at 9-1, #5, and very much in the NC conversation but fell out by losing their last two.  
  • Bruce's last year and Cooper's first few were pretty mediocre but that wasn't all that long.  
  • Cooper famously sucked against Michigan and in Bowls but after his first 4-5 years (1988-1991 or 1992) his teams were very much in the National Conversation up until those games.  
As an Ohio State fan I assume that the Buckeyes could recover from a period of prolonged irrelevance but that is only an assumption because we've never actually seen it and I hope we never do.  


CatsbyAZ

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2023, 01:36:11 PM »
Coming in late to this dialogue, but I believe it was @Mdot21 a few years ago who said, and whose definition of a Helmet School I like to steal: "A Helmet program is a program too big to fail." That's my favorite short definition to throw around at a sports bar.

With that said, I class Helmet schools two different ways:

1. Untouchable Helmets who stay helmets no matter what, save for 20 years of sustained mediocrity. Ohio State, Alabama, Michigan, Notre Dame, Texas, USC, and Oklahoma to name a few. LSU? Georgia? Notice this definition puts Nebraska at risk of losing Untouchable Helmet status. By this same definition Minnesota would've lost their similar status by about the 60s?

2. Conditional Helmets are Helmets when they are performing at a championship level but, more fluidly, are one poor coaching hire away from not being current Helmets: Florida, Florida State, Tennessee, Miami, Auburn, Penn State, Clemson, etc. Texas A&M? Oregon? Wisconsin? Kansas State under Bill Snyder? Virginia Tech under Frank Beamer?


Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2023, 02:02:58 PM »
Pollsters are more comfortable ranking any Helmet higher than they should be.  ND?  Well, they must be good, I'll put them at 7.  Colorado?  They haven't been decent in decades, no shot.

TCU?  No Chance, until this year preseason, when perhaps they didn't merit it.

The Blue Bloods are all Helmets, the Next Level teams have some helmetosity but it can ebb and flow.  UGA has quite a bit today, but it could fade faster than OSU's.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2023, 11:11:53 PM »

Harvard, Princeton and Yale lost their helmet status prior to the invention of the helmet. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2023, 11:30:25 PM »
A helmet team will get ranked early at say 8 when a TCU would be 20th with the same team
The voters are dumb?
No argument here.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2023, 08:33:00 AM »
Lazier more than dumb

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2023, 09:24:40 AM »
Another thing that is important to understanding "Helmet" is that Helmet status is MUCH easier to maintain than it is to obtain. 

A look at TCU and Michigan last year makes for a great example:
TCU did better than Michigan last year.  They flat out beat Michigan H2H and thus they played in the NC.  Doesn't matter.  TCU was not and is not a helmet and last year did little or nothing to alter that because the blowout loss to UGA simply confirmed that they aren't a helmet. 

Michigan clearly did worse.  The flat out lost to TCU and thus did NOT play for the NC.  Doesn't matter.  Michigan was a helmet and remains a helmet because it is about "brand" and "brand" is more about being in the conversation. 

Michigan actually makes a great example of this.  They won an NC right after WWII and in the almost eight decades since they have one split NC.  That is terrible by helmet standards.  They also had two prolonged periods of mediocrity.  For 18 years from 1951-1968 they only won one league title and were generally irrelevant.  Then after winning the league in 2004 they went 16 seasons (2005-2020) with zero league titles.  By Helmet standards that is BAD.  For comparison in those same 16 years (2005-2020) the other helmet in the league won 10 league titles.  Penn State also won three as did lowly (by helmet standards) MSU and Wisconsin. 

The proof that Michigan is a helmet anyway is that in they won back-to-back league titles in both the two years prior to those 16 (2003/4) AND the two years after that (2021/2).  So if you look at league titles for the 20 years from 2003-2022:

  • 10 tOSU
  • 4 Michigan
  • 3 Wisconsin
  • 3 Michigan State
  • 3 Penn State
  • 1 Iowa
  • 0 MN, IL, NU, PU, IU
Sure, Michigan isn't keeping up with the Buckeyes but I've also cherry-picked the years (it is last 20 but still) and they are STILL second.  Four titles in 20 years isn't all that good by helmet standards but this is also the worst stretch of Michigan Football since 1951-1968.  That IS their bad times and it is still second best in the B1G. 


I want everyone to understand something here.  I'm using Michigan as the example because they are local and convenient not because I want to.  I'm an Ohio State guy.  I ALWAYS root against Michigan.  The only exception is when they play Notre Dame and in that case I root for an asteroid strike.  I'm not one of those guys who wants a strong Michigan for the sake of the rivalry.  I NEVER want them to win.  We had a conversation about rivalries a long time ago and I think it was @utee94 who said how I feel (he was talking his TX/OU but same concept).  I want Michigan to lose every game they play.  I want to see their fans cry on National Television, especially the children.  I would LOVE for Michigan to no longer be a helmet. 

In the depths of their post-Lloyd issues I thought (and truth be told hoped) that they would fall from the ranks of the helmets.  After their Covid-year debacle it really looked like Harbaugh wasn't going to work out.  They'd gone 16 years without a league title, 23 years (1998-2020) without playing for an NC, and just generally looked lost.  They had just wrapped up a sub .500 season in which the only reason they didn't lose to tOSU was that they used COVID as an excuse to duck a beatdown.  For comparison, in the 16 years that Michigan hadn't won a league title Ohio State had won 10 (see above) and in the 23 years (1998-2020) of the BCS and CFP where Michigan had NEVER made it, Ohio State had gotten to the BCSNCG or CFP seven times (2002, 2006, 2007, 2014, 2016, 2019, 2020) and won it all twice

As I said upthread though, Helmet status is MUCH easier to maintain than it is to obtain.  If a non-helmet had Michigan's record over the last quarter-century (1998-2022) they would CLEARLY still be a non-helmet.  That record isn't enough to OBTAIN helmet status but it is enough to MAINTAIN helmet status because maintaining helmet status is really just about keeping your brand in the discussion enough to introduce a new generation of fans to your brand as a helmet.  Michigan's #1vs2 game against tOSU in 2006 and their CFP appearances the last two years did that.  It doesn't matter that they lost the #1vs2 game and have yet to win a CFP game.  Simply getting there was enough to remind people that Michigan IS a helmet.  I hate it and I wish it weren't so but the fact is that they've renewed that membership in the helmet club for another generation. 
« Last Edit: September 08, 2023, 09:37:12 AM by medinabuckeye1 »

utee94

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2023, 09:54:57 AM »
Yeah, it's really not fair at all and I get it, but the Blue Blood helmets were basically established in the "Golden Years" of football, and it's an exclusive club that's tough to join and also tough to leave.



Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2023, 02:03:24 PM »
It’s not fair 

FearlessF

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2023, 07:32:30 PM »
fair's got nuttin to do wit it
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2023, 07:42:04 PM »
Michigan is an interesting case.

I'm confused why UM isn't synonymous with choking.  They ALWAYS lost that 1 extra game under Bo that would have gotten them a NC or 3.  

But yet they've still legitimately held onto their helmet status.  Despite the 1 NC in the past 70 years, they're 5th in overall win% in that time.
Behind them, there's nothing but multiple NC winners, even way behind:
5 - UM
6 - Neb (5 NCs)
7 - Texas (4)
8 - USC (7)
9 - UGA (3)
10 - ND (4)
12 - Florida (3)
13 - FSU (3)
14 - LSU (4)
17 - Miami (5)

Other programs like UM, with "only" 1 in the last 70 years?
25 - Warshington
38 - GT
48 - CU

UM has an obvious NC deficiency.  But having the 5th-best record over 70 years is hardcore.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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