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Topic: Helmet Teams -- who are they?

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Mdot21

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2023, 08:08:39 PM »
Michigan is an interesting case.

I'm confused why UM isn't synonymous with choking.  They ALWAYS lost that 1 extra game under Bo that would have gotten them a NC or 3. 

But yet they've still legitimately held onto their helmet status.  Despite the 1 NC in the past 70 years, they're 5th in overall win% in that time.
Behind them, there's nothing but multiple NC winners, even way behind:
5 - UM
6 - Neb (5 NCs)
7 - Texas (4)
8 - USC (7)
9 - UGA (3)
10 - ND (4)
12 - Florida (3)
13 - FSU (3)
14 - LSU (4)
17 - Miami (5)

Other programs like UM, with "only" 1 in the last 70 years?
25 - Warshington
38 - GT
48 - CU

UM has an obvious NC deficiency.  But having the 5th-best record over 70 years is hardcore. 
this is 100% spot on.

they constantly choked in big games as favorites under Bo and Lloyd Carr. hell they just did it last year vs TCU.

Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2023, 08:30:14 AM »
My top helmets are my BBs of course:

ND
UM
OSU
USC
Bama
Texas
OU

On the fringe:

Nebbie
PSU

Near the fringe:

UGA
LSU
Auburn
Tenn
Florida
FSU
Clemson
Somebody else

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2023, 09:54:58 AM »
Neb & Tenn are kind of in the same boat.  Both were IN 20 years ago and even had their last NCs in consecutive seasons (97 & 98).
Neb had more NCs, obviously, but they were both clearly in the top 10 programs, all-time.

Since then (1999)?
.610 Neb, 1 conf championship (1999)
.574 Tenn, 0 conf championships

So they've fallen off a relative cliff, but they're not like IU or Vandy or something.
But they're both in the USS Uh Oh.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

utee94

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2023, 02:04:18 PM »
this is 100% spot on.

they constantly choked in big games as favorites under Bo and Lloyd Carr. hell they just did it last year vs TCU.
As a t-shirt Michigan fan it has always perplexed me as well.  Relative to brand, history, expectations, and resources, Michigan really has under-achieved in a surprising number of years.  I say this as a Texas fan, and I believe the same is true of my own alma mater.   Hmmm... perhaps I'M the problem? 

I will say, that the only blue blood helmets that have an archrival that is a regional border rival that is ALSO a helmet, are Texas/OU and Michigan/Ohio State.  And  by  most metrics, OU and Ohio State have been more successful and more consistent than their main rivals Texas and Michigan.  So perhaps there's something contributing there.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2023, 06:15:05 PM »
As a t-shirt Michigan fan it has always perplexed me as well.  Relative to brand, history, expectations, and resources, Michigan really has under-achieved in a surprising number of years.  I say this as a Texas fan, and I believe the same is true of my own alma mater.  Hmmm... perhaps I'M the problem?

I will say, that the only blue blood helmets that have an archrival that is a regional border rival that is ALSO a helmet, are Texas/OU and Michigan/Ohio State.  And  by  most metrics, OU and Ohio State have been more successful and more consistent than their main rivals Texas and Michigan.  So perhaps there's something contributing there.
Interesting observation.
The thing is that within the analogy I see TX/tOSU and M/OU as the similar situations.

We have talked before about the concept of a "College Football Reset". Texas and Ohio are fertile recruiting areas and UT/tOSU are the natural and obvious "flagship" schools in those states. No matter how many times you "started over" I think that tOSU/TX would almost always end up as "helmets" or at least "helmet adjacent".

Michigan and Oklahoma, as I see it, are very different. Their states are not loaded with talent. I once read that supposedly Fielding Yost was approached by or in communication with Ohio State. The tOSU angle isn't important here. The issue/question is would OU/M be "helmets" today if they hadn't ever hired Bennie Owen / Fielding Yost?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2023, 06:18:00 PM »
As long as they border talented states, they'd at least be fine.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Mdot21

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2023, 06:39:22 PM »
Michigan and Oklahoma, as I see it, are very different. Their states are not loaded with talent.
while this is obviously true, there is far more talent in Michigan than Oklahoma. Ann Arbor is also very close to two major urban areas/cities that produce tons of talent, Chicago (little over 3 hrs) and Detroit (little under an hr). Detroit by the way has the 3rd most active NFL players of all US cities with 16. Only Houston and Miami have more. Michigan used to clean up in Chicago area recruiting, but it's been a rough go for them in that area lately. 

Michigan State really hurts Michigan greatly in this whole equation. Ohio State has had a major advantage of being the only game in town in-state and basically every Ohio kid that Ohio State wants....automatically just goes to Ohio State. There isn't another P5 in-state program to pick-off even 1 or 2 or 3 of those kids a year that OSU wants off. In the past, the few times those kids would get picked off- Michigan had been the one to do it. Michigan used to do it quite frequently actually, but OSU's complete domination of Lloyd Carr's final days all the way up until the last couple years before Harbaugh broke through has allowed them to put up a great wall around Ohio.

utee94

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2023, 12:09:18 PM »
All of the above makes sense to me.

As far as OU, coaches at Texas universities, tend to view and treat them as another de facto Texas school, because that's the way the recruits view them.  Over the decades, OU has been very effective at making itself into another "local" option for recruits within the state of Texas.  They've been deliberate about it, and it has paid off for them.

Mdot21

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2023, 12:14:52 PM »
All of the above makes sense to me.

As far as OU, coaches at Texas universities, tend to view and treat them as another de facto Texas school, because that's the way the recruits view them.  Over the decades, OU has been very effective at making itself into another "local" option for recruits within the state of Texas.  They've been deliberate about it, and it has paid off for them.
yeah OU has to do that, there just hardly isn't any talent in-state. And while there is far more talent in Michigan, those bastards at Sparty pick off a few here and there- OU has that problem to a lesser degree with Pokie St- but their border state has a lot more talent. Ohio produces talent, but not like Texas. Not even close. Only Florida produces more talent than Texas.

utee94

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2023, 12:18:22 PM »
yeah OU has to do that, there just hardly isn't any talent in-state. And while there is far more talent in Michigan, those bastards at Sparty pick off a few here and there- OU has that problem to a lesser degree with Pokie St- but their border state has a lot more talent. Ohio produces talent, but not like Texas. Not even close. Only Florida produces more talent than Texas.
Yeah but the state of Texas also has a LOT more D1-A programs.  It think it's up to 11 now, and if you count OU, that's 12 D1-A programs all mining the state.  Not to mention all of the more distant blue bloods that successfully cherry-pick some Texas talent every year.

I have no idea WHY a talented Texas high school player would choose Baylor or Texas Tech or TCU, over UT, and yet it happens every year. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2023, 12:22:11 PM »
NIL?

The Dawgs have some Texas players, including one of my favorites, Terry Hoague.

utee94

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2023, 12:25:52 PM »
NIL?

The Dawgs have some Texas players, including one of my favorites, Terry Hoague.
I don't think you have to get too complicated with that.  I think Texas players going to Georgia (or Ohio State or Alabama) are simply going where they see chances to win championships and get into the NFL.  UT and the other Texas schools haven't offered that very reliably in recent years.

Now, Texas is definitely losing some NIL recruitments to some OTHER schools, but highly successful programs like Georgia, sell themselves.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2023, 12:27:04 PM »
yeah OU has to do that, there just hardly isn't any talent in-state. And while there is far more talent in Michigan, those bastards at Sparty pick off a few here and there- OU has that problem to a lesser degree with Pokie St- but their border state has a lot more talent. Ohio produces talent, but not like Texas. Not even close. Only Florida produces more talent than Texas.
Texas produces more talent than Ohio, no question about it. However, there is also more competition for it with Texas, aTm, a slew of lesser but still decent P5's, and OU. I've always more-or-less considered OU to be a "Texas" school for purposes of recruiting analysis and what @utee94 said above confirms that view.

Where I think OU and M differ from TX and tOSU is that the ability of Oklahoma/Michigan to successfully recruit TX/Chicago is dependent on their being helmets.
The issue/question is would OU/M be "helmets" today if they hadn't ever hired Bennie Owen / Fielding Yost?
If you started over I'm pretty confident that Texas and Ohio State would succeed because the talent is local. Eventually they'll probably stumble into a pretty good coach and when they do, they'll be a helmet.

If Oklahoma/Michigan never hired the guys that built their brands (Owen/Yost) they might not be even today.

utee94

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Re: Helmet Teams -- who are they?
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2023, 12:49:36 PM »
Texas, aTm, Baylor, Texas Tech, TCU, SMU, Rice, Houston, UNT, UTEP, UTSA, Texas State, Oklahoma. That's 13. LSU and Arkansas are also "sort-of" Texas schools, when it comes to recruiting.

Now don't get me wrong, schools like UNT, UTEP, UTSA, and Texas State, aren't pulling many top recruits from the top tier of football schools in the state, but they do occasionally snag one or two, and it makes an impact.




 

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