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Topic: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #98 on: April 14, 2021, 02:27:57 PM »
It's probably the Internal Combustion Engine lobby keeping EV's down. ;)
It seems many here are oblivious to the powers that be here in the US and their "evil" (their words, not mine) deeds they do to stay in power (ie- richer than wealthy) - something I find entirely inevitable.
And that same crowd that turns a blind eye to it acts like the failures of socialism as inevitable.  

There's a connection there, somewhere.  As if it's acceptable in the name of selfishness (if unfair, then use 'for one's best interest') and unacceptable in the name of selflessness (if unfair, then use 'for other's best interests).
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #99 on: April 14, 2021, 02:34:39 PM »
It seems many here are oblivious to the powers that be here in the US and their "evil" (their words, not mine) deeds they do to stay in power (ie- richer than wealthy) - something I find entirely inevitable.
And that same crowd that turns a blind eye to it acts like the failures of socialism as inevitable. 

There's a connection there, somewhere.  As if it's acceptable in the name of selfishness (if unfair, then use 'for one's best interest') and unacceptable in the name of selflessness (if unfair, then use 'for other's best interests).
You seem to think you know more about how these companies run their businesses than they do. Maybe they're evil oligarch's. Maybe they're not.

You have not explained why you think it's important to tell them to make a one-size-fits-all car but you don't see the intelligence in making a one-size-fits-all Whoa Nellie game?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #100 on: April 14, 2021, 02:56:27 PM »
My game is what it is.  It's one game.  You play it.  The directions are the same for everyone.  What teams you play as are akin to the color of the car you choose to drive.
It doesn't work.  Not a sick burn.  Not anything, really.  But by all means, continue, lol.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #101 on: April 14, 2021, 02:57:18 PM »
And again, I never labeled how corporations behave as "evil," as far as I can remember.  Others have chosen to do that.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #102 on: April 14, 2021, 03:24:53 PM »
My game is what it is.  It's one game.  You play it.  The directions are the same for everyone.  What teams you play as are akin to the color of the car you choose to drive.
It doesn't work.  Not a sick burn.  Not anything, really.  But by all means, continue, lol.
Why should automakers supply different colors of cars, anyway? That's just more inventory and more paint suppliers to manage... If you're going all-out, let's just standardize cars on one color. Probably bright hazard orange would be good, so they all stand out--it's a safety feature!

Nah, the number and selection of teams you play is very much down to personal preference, how much money you want to spend, and what it's worth to you.

You can't disagree that the best version of the game is a full set of all the teams, can you? After all, that gives every consumer what they want, and more

But you're not willing to supply that at a price people would willingly pay because the value for those extra teams, while it's positive for nearly every person looking to purchase, isn't worth the expense you'd need to charge to make selling the game worth it.

THAT is why there are different tiers, models, options packages, etc for cars. Different people have different preferences, and if you make them all buy the fully-loaded version, most of them will say "eh, I can't afford that and it's got a whole bunch of stuff I don't care about."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #103 on: April 14, 2021, 03:46:53 PM »
Are you married to the auto industry or something?
.
I must be simply overestimating the decreased costs of only using a limited set of parts instead of an expansive variety of parts.  And at least part of the increased pricing of automatic this vs manual that is more than the actual increased cost of making it.  It's the convenience, no?  If every car I make uses the same parts, I can certainly acquire them in larger quantities, driving the price down.  

None of this matters anyway, because it'll never happen.  You guys seem to get really bent over my "why nots" and "what ifs".  
I don't know how many classes of passenger vehicle there are.....let's say 10.  Is it really so horrific to suggest maybe we only need 6?  That those 6 would cost less than they do now, as 6 of the ten?  That's evil?  

You don't think there are 10 classes so that you can have one in mind just to be upsold to the next one, extracting X-number of dollars from you?  You don't think the auto industry is bloated?  Ask them yourself, as Ford said they're just eliminating all non-Mustang cars.  I guess one of their VPs reads this forum, huh?  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #104 on: April 14, 2021, 04:04:30 PM »
Are you married to the auto industry or something?
.
I must be simply overestimating the decreased costs of only using a limited set of parts instead of an expansive variety of parts.  And at least part of the increased pricing of automatic this vs manual that is more than the actual increased cost of making it.  It's the convenience, no?  If every car I make uses the same parts, I can certainly acquire them in larger quantities, driving the price down. 

None of this matters anyway, because it'll never happen.  You guys seem to get really bent over my "why nots" and "what ifs". 
I don't know how many classes of passenger vehicle there are.....let's say 10.  Is it really so horrific to suggest maybe we only need 6?  That those 6 would cost less than they do now, as 6 of the ten?  That's evil? 

You don't think there are 10 classes so that you can have one in mind just to be upsold to the next one, extracting X-number of dollars from you?  You don't think the auto industry is bloated?  Ask them yourself, as Ford said they're just eliminating all non-Mustang cars.  I guess one of their VPs reads this forum, huh? 
Auto makers will build what they believe that they can sell to the customer. And based on the number of different models and classes of vehicles, there is a wide range of customer preferences in the market.

Being as the auto makers continue to sell a large variety of vehicles, my guess is that it is profitable for them to do so.

Being as the cars being built are being bought by the public, my guess is that the public in general believes the cost of the vehicle is commensurate with the value it provides.

As for why Ford is eliminating all non-Mustang cars, it is because the non Mustangs are not being bought by the customers, they are preferring to buy SUV's. It's not rocket science.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #105 on: April 14, 2021, 04:13:59 PM »
Yeah, SUVs and  trucks are the profitable segment for domestic car makers.  I think it's reasonable to note they are late to the game on EVs, and have been pushed by Tesla.  They can see the numbers and writing on the wall.  Large companies are by and large recalcitrant, they fear change and risk.  That is a big reason many of them go bust over time.  It's also a reason many of them stay large for a time, they avoid risk.

We had a meeting with folks from Kodak circa 1990 and I asked them if they were concerned about electronic cameras, just coming onto the market then.  They said they would never take the place of film.  I was a bit dubious about it, they were making strides in sensors at the time that were impressive.  We all know what happened.

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #106 on: April 14, 2021, 04:16:53 PM »
These were the Dow 30 companies in 1961, US Steel had been dropped and the current listing.  There isn't a lot of overlap. 

May 6, 1991[edit]

Allied-Signal IncorporatedEastman Kodak CompanyMinnesota Mining & Manufacturing Company
Aluminum Company of AmericaExxon CorporationPhilip Morris Companies Inc.
American Express CompanyGeneral Electric CompanyThe Procter & Gamble Company
AT&T Corporation †
(formerly American Telephone and Telegraph Company)
General Motors CorporationSears Roebuck & Company
Bethlehem Steel CorporationGoodyear Tire and Rubber CompanyTexaco Incorporated
The Boeing CompanyInternational Business Machines CorporationUnion Carbide Corporation
Caterpillar Inc. ↑International Paper CompanyUnited Technologies Corporation
Chevron CorporationJ.P. Morgan & Company ↑The Walt Disney Company ↑
The Coca-Cola CompanyMcDonald's CorporationWestinghouse Electric Corporation
E.I. du Pont de Nemours & CompanyMerck & Co., Inc.F. W. Woolworth Company

August 31, 2020[edit]

3M CompanyThe Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.Nike, Inc.
American Express CompanyThe Home Depot, Inc.The Procter & Gamble Company
Amgen Inc. ↑Honeywell International Inc. ↑salesforce.com, inc. ↑
Apple Inc.Intel CorporationThe Travelers Companies, Inc.
The Boeing CompanyInternational Business Machines CorporationUnitedHealth Group Incorporated
Caterpillar Inc.Johnson & JohnsonVerizon Communications Inc.
Chevron CorporationJPMorgan Chase & Co.Visa Inc.
Cisco Systems, Inc.McDonald's CorporationWalgreens Boots Alliance, Inc.
The Coca-Cola CompanyMerck & Co., Inc.Walmart Inc.
Dow Inc.Microsoft CorporationThe Walt Disney Company



betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #107 on: April 14, 2021, 04:26:27 PM »
Are you married to the auto industry or something?
No. 

You just seem to have an incredibly simplistic idea of how things work, and I'm pointing out that you don't know what the eff you're talking about.


Quote
I must be simply overestimating the decreased costs of only using a limited set of parts instead of an expansive variety of parts.  And at least part of the increased pricing of automatic this vs manual that is more than the actual increased cost of making it.  It's the convenience, no?  If every car I make uses the same parts, I can certainly acquire them in larger quantities, driving the price down. 
Yes, you absolutely are overestimating the decreased costs of only using a limited set of parts. 

Car companies ALREADY try to share as many parts between models as they can, because that does help costs. A car "platform", i.e. chassis, is often shared between multiple models and multiple makes, both within a company (i.e. Ford/Lincoln) and across companies (i.e. Ford/Mazda have shared platforms in the past--not sure if they still do). 

However as you've probably figured out from printing your game, it's not like there's a linear relationship between pricing and volume such that if you buy enough volume, the price approaches zero... No, the higher the volume, the closer the price approaches production cost. If I need a profit of $X to justify doing business, I can sell 10 units at cost+X/10 or I can sell 100 units at cost+X/100... 



Quote
None of this matters anyway, because it'll never happen.  You guys seem to get really bent over my "why nots" and "what ifs". 
I don't know how many classes of passenger vehicle there are.....let's say 10.  Is it really so horrific to suggest maybe we only need 6?  That those 6 would cost less than they do now, as 6 of the ten?  That's evil? 

There are 330M people in the US, and I'll throw out a number that say 200M of them are of driving age. Those 200M buy about 17M new automobiles per year. When you look at the incomes, preferences, family size, vehicle usage patterns, etc of 17M cars sold per year, it gives you a TON of variability.

The automakers produce what they can sell. You know how you know that? They stop producing things that don't sell well enough, like my beloved Ford Flex which is not being carried forward post-2019. BTW the main reason this died was that it was sharing a platform with a class of Lincoln vehicles, and when that vehicle platform was being refreshed it didn't make sense to redesign the Flex for a new platform because it didn't sell well.

This is the point at which the market is self-correcting. If automakers produce too many classes of vehicles, then certain classes will have difficulty selling, and be discontinued. That's how it works. 


Quote
You don't think there are 10 classes so that you can have one in mind just to be upsold to the next one, extracting X-number of dollars from you?  You don't think the auto industry is bloated?  Ask them yourself, as Ford said they're just eliminating all non-Mustang cars.  I guess one of their VPs reads this forum, huh? 
Ford responded to market demand--the market wants a lot more CUVs and a lot fewer sedans. They now have 7 different CUVs/SUVs:

  • Ecosport (launched in North America in 2018)
  • Escape
  • Bronco (2dr and 4dr) (launched in 2021)
  • Edge
  • Explorer
  • Excursion
  • Mustang Mach-E (launched in 2021)

So they got rid of most sedans domestically to make room for the Ecosport which has been available internationally but was brought into the US, and for the new Bronco and Mach-E. 

Gigem

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #108 on: April 14, 2021, 04:29:47 PM »
As usual this thread went so far off topic it's unreal.  

First off I think everybody is thinking about electric cars all wrong.  You're looking at them through the eyes of someone who grew up in the ICE era, where combustion engines were the norm, where you fill your car or truck up once or twice a week in 5-10 minutes.  ICE engines are at the peak of their technology.  Sure, we've all seen how much more powerful and efficient they've gotten in the last ~20 years.  A V8 engine from 2020 has almost double the horsepower from a V8 engine from 1990 (Chevy 350 in 1990 made ~220 HP, chevy 5.3L in 2020 makes 355 HP).  I would argue that power increments, and efficiency increments are not going to be so easily achieved.  

EV's are evolving all the time.  GM certainly had an EV in the 1990's but only because they were forced to by CARB and other state mandates that were pushing for Zero Emission Vehicles at the time.  GM made a half-hearted attempt at an EV just to show how unfeasible it is, CARB caved, and GM immediately pulled all EV's and destroyed them.  I wouldn't call the EV-1 a failure however.  Many, many people loved them and did not want to turn them in.  GM would only lease them out in very limited areas and the supply never kept up with demand.  They had one little assembly line in the corner of a larger plant, they never tooled it up for "mass production" and never had any intent on doing so.  

Tesla, from the get-go has pushed EV's solely for the purpose of advancing the technology and getting rid of fossil fuel usage in the transportation sector.  They did not invent the EV but they did manage to scale the lithium-ion battery technology we take for granted today.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #109 on: April 14, 2021, 04:37:52 PM »
As usual this thread went so far off topic it's unreal. 

First off I think everybody is thinking about electric cars all wrong. 
Specifically, how?  I'm seeing a lot of cautious optimism from most folks here.  What is wrong about that?

Gigem

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #110 on: April 14, 2021, 04:44:10 PM »
My father in law bought an EV last year, a chevy Bolt.  It's stated range is ~260 miles on a single charge.  He averages 5 miles per kWh of driving, or 20 kWh per 100 miles.  Since electricity here is ~$0.12 per kWh it costs him about $2.40 to drive 100 miles.  I will admit that he does drive like an old man, slow and steady.  And having driven the car I can tell you that this thing is FUN to drive.  It's fast, it's powerful, and it's pretty cool to zip around in.  The EV's, even as they grow larger and more capable will always be more energy efficient than their gas counter parts and on a unit of energy used easily outpace gas and diesel engines.  

You charge an EV at home at night.  The company i work for, listed on the Dow index above, has chargers here at work for EV's as well.  Some places around town have them, you can even plug in and charge for free (they assume you are shopping/doing business there but they don't really check).  I'm sure that will change as EV use becomes more wide-scale.  I'm sure you've noticed lately all the new paper-plated Teslas running around.  I see at least 3-5 everyday in the little area of ~30k population I live in.  Not 3-5 a day total, 3-5 new ones with paper plates.  I see 10-15 everyday total and growing weekly.  

If you compare the EV car era to the smartphone era I'd say we're right about the Motorola RZR.  OK, that one is not really a smartphone, but it was at the very last of the flip phone era and probably the most popular flip phone.  Tesla's may be a BlackBerry, but the battery tech is still not there. 

EV's are increasing in range, decreasing in charge time, and decreasing in cost.  They're fast and fun.  They're cheaper to operate. There is evidence that you may never have to replace the battery in an EV in anything less than 200,000 miles, but the jury is still out.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
« Reply #111 on: April 14, 2021, 04:49:30 PM »
I think we discussed all that in this thread.

The real question is when breakeven occurs, compare the Bolt with an equivalent Chevy Cruze (which won't be made too much longer).




 

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