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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2021, 11:33:19 AM

Title: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2021, 11:33:19 AM
I'm curious.  Figure the EV has about a 250 mile range and can fast charge and currently costs about $8,000 more than some equivalent ICE car.  I've read some fast charge to 80% in 20 minutes, but that is pushing it today.

able to bring a given EV's battery back up to 80 percent of its capacity in around 30-60 minutes, depending on the vehicle ...

Chevrolet Cruze vs Chevrolet Bolt EV - CarGurus (https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/compare/Chevrolet-Cruze-vs-Chevrolet-Bolt-EV_d2076_d2397)

Similar cars, the Cruze is rated 28/38 mpg.  The Bolt has a 256 mile range.  Recharging at 12 cents per kwhr would cost about $7-8.  The Cruze would use about 6-8 gallons of gas.  The Bolt is faster to 60 by a good bit.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 12, 2021, 11:36:46 AM
Depends on cost and what year I need a new car.  None of the choices are specific enough for me.  I have no qualms in buying an EV.  The car I bought 2 years ago gave me the feeling it was the last gas car I'd ever buy. 
If I have it 10 years and EVs are the same price as gas cars, I'd buy the EV.  But cost is #1 for me.  If an EV is going to bump my monthly payment up more than $10-12, then "all things aren't equal."
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2021, 11:38:35 AM
I provided a salient example for that, the EV costs around $31 K and the ICE would cost around $23 K, currently.  Then you look at operating costs.  No brake pad wear, no fluid to change, much cheaper miles per cent.  Over time, it can pay out.  I think it's not there yet.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: grillrat on April 12, 2021, 11:47:59 AM
Locale is a definitive consideration.  There are many places around here in the Columbus, OH area where public access charging stations are popping up.  If you live in an area that is a bit more cosmopolitan / green-forward, then I think there are some benefits to going the EV route.  Otherwise, you might want to hold off a bit.  It obviously also depends on your lifestyle and when / how often you intend to commute, but "planning" your parking / recharge as part of your travel can get tiresome and inconvenient quickly.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 12, 2021, 11:57:13 AM
I provided a salient example for that, the EV costs around $31 K and the ICE would cost around $23 K, currently.  Then you look at operating costs.  No brake pad wear, no fluid to change, much cheaper miles per cent.  Over time, it can pay out.  I think it's not there yet.
The problem for most of us is that the payoff calculation is influenced heavily by your home/family/work situation.

I drive very limited miles now. My commute is 1.7mi so 3.4mi/day, 17mi/wk, 884mi/yr.

At 1,000 mi per year the annual fuel cost for a humongous Suburban 4x4 with the biggest gas engine offered (per epa.gov figures) is only about $200 so electric just wouldn't make sense. Now if I suddenly got a job 40 mi from home such that my commute increased to:
I would have a very different view of things.

All of that said, I favor cheaper initial cost over cheaper overall cost because situations change. Ie, if I had the above hypothetical job 40mi from home and bought a hybrid or electric car planning to recoup the extra cost with fuel savings over 5-10 years of ownership then got a job offer closer to home the electric car premium would end up as a financially unwise decision.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2021, 12:04:49 PM
You'd need to drive 12,000 miles a year to consider an EV near equal, I think, much of that around town.  The numbers still don't work if you consider taking that $8 K difference and investing it in something safe.  Each thousand miles in "fuel" costs around $28 versus around $80.  Figure $50 savings each 1,000 miles, maybe $600 a year, for ten years, add in no oil changes and brake pads etc.  Meh.

And in ten years, your range will have degraded.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 12, 2021, 12:14:12 PM
As an example of the above, when I was at tOSU I owned an old but paid for pickup that got about 14mpg. My plan was to drive it for a while after graduation and save up for a new car. However, when I graduated I realized that with the amount of driving I would be doing I could pretty much make my car payment with my gas savings. 

Per epa at today's prices my truck would have cost me about $750/mo in fuel (roughly 3k/mo, almost all highway) while the 5spd manual Chevy Cavalier that I bought would cost me about $275/mo in fuel. The $475/mo difference is more than enough to make the payment on the new car.

I'd consider an EV today using roughly the same logic.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 12, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
maybe in ten years

because I'd guess in ten years or so, EVs will have evolved and improved quite a bit.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2021, 12:28:16 PM
I think "maybe in ten years or so" is the right answer for most folks.  Some leap in batteries could make that five.  I suspect at some point "normal" ICE cars will lose a lot of value because of lack of demand, that could be 2035ish.

But your CTS-V station wagon with a manual transmission could be worth a fortune.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MarqHusker on April 12, 2021, 12:34:36 PM
I roughed in a charger into my garage when we built a couple years ago.   Range is about the only thing keeping me, but I also love my gas car now and I don't flip cars frequently. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 12, 2021, 12:38:33 PM
As an example of the above, when I was at tOSU I owned an old but paid for pickup that got about 14mpg. My plan was to drive it for a while after graduation and save up for a new car. However, when I graduated I realized that with the amount of driving I would be doing I could pretty much make my car payment with my gas savings.

Per epa at today's prices my truck would have cost me about $750/mo in fuel (roughly 3k/mo, almost all highway) while the 5spd manual Chevy Cavalier that I bought would cost me about $275/mo in fuel. The $475/mo difference is more than enough to make the payment on the new car.

I'd consider an EV today using roughly the same logic.
I had a similar situation a few years back. At the time, I was driving an older F-250 and it was costing me about $500/month in fuel just to get to work and back. While I used it quite a bit outside of work, it just didn't make sense to spend that amount of money just to drive to the office on a daily basis. I bought a slightly used Toyota Camry that got considerably better mileage and only cost about $100/month in gas.  The payment on the Camry was about $200 and the insurance was not very much. Therefore, I acquired a car and still came out ahead just driving it to work and back. 

That was until my son took it out one night and totaled it. Then it was back to driving the truck for a couple of months. Since then, I have pretty much worked at home and now cost of driving an F-250 to work is nothing. ;)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 12, 2021, 01:06:58 PM
I had a similar situation a few years back. At the time, I was driving an older F-250 and it was costing me about $500/month in fuel just to get to work and back. While I used it quite a bit outside of work, it just didn't make sense to spend that amount of money just to drive to the office on a daily basis. I bought a slightly used Toyota Camry that got considerably better mileage and only cost about $100/month in gas.  The payment on the Camry was about $200 and the insurance was not very much. Therefore, I acquired a car and still came out ahead just driving it to work and back.

That was until my son took it out one night and totaled it. Then it was back to driving the truck for a couple of months. Since then, I have pretty much worked at home and now cost of driving an F-250 to work is nothing. ;)
I knew a guy a couple years ago that did the same thing. He had a big Chrysler 300 with the big engine... Car guy who also owned a dragster. 

He ended up taking a new job that was a 70 mi commute, EACH WAY, every day. Bought a little Honda Civic because the gas savings compared to his 300 were more than the payment on the Civic. He didn't sell the 300, of course, because he really liked it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 12, 2021, 01:24:43 PM
You'd need to drive 12,000 miles a year to consider an EV near equal, I think, much of that around town.  The numbers still don't work if you consider taking that $8 K difference and investing it in something safe.  Each thousand miles in "fuel" costs around $28 versus around $80.  Figure $50 savings each 1,000 miles, maybe $600 a year, for ten years, add in no oil changes and brake pads etc.  Meh.

And in ten years, your range will have degraded.
Let's IMAGINE that in 2030, or so, the EV costs only $2,000 more than a comparable ICE car.  Say you drive 12,000 miles a year.  The EV saves you $600 a year at current gas prices.  The EV would have better acceleration and cornering (I'm talking lower end cars.)

Now I think you'd have rather quick adoption by mainstreamers.  It would still take years for EVs to replace half the ICE cars on the roads.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 12, 2021, 01:34:02 PM
I've said it before... I've got interest in EVs but it's not the right time. 

My next vehicle purchase window is at least 5+ years away due to needing the giant family-hauler until at least my son goes off to college. I think the EV market is still not as well developed as I'd like, and in 5+ years there will be TONS more options than the few we have available right now. And my current living situation (renting w/o a L2 charger in the garage) hopefully will be different in 5+ years.

So I'll definitely be looking at EV by then, but neither I nor the EV market are quite ready now IMHO.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 12, 2021, 02:15:27 PM
Never.  No interest. Hope my V8s and V6s are available as long as I can dr or. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 12, 2021, 02:43:23 PM
Why?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 12, 2021, 02:57:07 PM
Hearing the roar is really nice.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 12, 2021, 03:28:23 PM
Never.  No interest. Hope my V8s and V6s are available as long as I can dr or.
I've said this in the past, but in 10 years or so, I could change my mind.

old men usually do not, but.......... I'm saying there's a chance.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 12, 2021, 05:17:47 PM
Hearing the roar is really nice.
It is.  By 2050, having a gas engine car will be like having a boat - a luxury item.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 12, 2021, 05:19:37 PM
gas will be cheaper than wind & solar
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 12, 2021, 05:44:11 PM
When considering TCO, how much does it cost to replace the battery bank on an EV, and how often does it need to be performed?

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 12, 2021, 05:46:35 PM
gas will be cheaper than wind & solar
And gas stations will be far and few between.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MaximumSam on April 12, 2021, 05:48:06 PM
In the back of my mind I think a Tesla would be fun to drive. In the front of my mind I am cheap and prefer to buy cars paying cash and probably won't come up with 40K in extra cash anytime soon.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 12, 2021, 05:55:58 PM
When considering TCO, how much does it cost to replace the battery bank on an EV, and how often does it need to be performed?
A lot and barely ever. 

Some of the early Nissan Leaf models had major battery problems because they didn't build in adequate cooling, as I understand it. 

But as far as current BEVs, your battery pack should probably be expected to last as long or longer than the engine in an ICEV. Hundreds of thousands of miles.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 12, 2021, 06:01:24 PM
A lot and barely ever.

Some of the early Nissan Leaf models had major battery problems because they didn't build in adequate cooling, as I understand it.

But as far as current BEVs, your battery pack should probably be expected to last as long or longer than the engine in an ICEV. Hundreds of thousands of miles.
That's good.  I do remember hearing issues about some of those early models, but had no idea what the current state might be.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 12, 2021, 10:09:36 PM
And gas stations will be far and few between.
similar to charging stations today
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on April 13, 2021, 01:58:45 AM
My next car is 4-5 years out. I have reliable relatively new transportation now. I intend to buy a VW Microbus EV.  So, I am projecting the future, which can change.

In 1980, I sold my 1973 MG Midget and purchased a 1970 VW Microbus. I needed a larger vehicle to move my possessions to Florida for law school. On a long straight-a-way the VW Type 2 could reach top speed of 67 mph, and slow down to the upper 40s in the Tennessee "mountains."

Even more problematic was trying to stop the Type 2 with its 4-wheel drum brakes that sucked. When a hydraulic brake line went out, I blew a stop sign at the apex of a hill on a highway intersection in the driftless area. I fortunately did not encounter another vehicle and stopped a mile later toward the bottom of a hill in SW Wisconsin.

I hope to buy a faster more nimble version of the car that took me from Dubuque to Tallahassee for law school, and back multiple times, that will also stop. The old Microbus had a lot of space inside, but you would be the 1st to a head-on accident if driving, and in any event in an emergency you couldn't stop.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on April 13, 2021, 02:01:49 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Qw0h1Ql.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on April 13, 2021, 02:11:14 AM
Never.  No interest. Hope my V8s and V6s are available as long as I can dr or.
Fifteen-years out internal combustion engines will not likely be available. It will be hydrogen or EV. I hope you live a long life. In 20-years if you like newer cars, you will live in antiquity and find it increasingly difficult to find fuel.  I suspect EV is a temporary bridge vehicle to hydrogen which will be more dominant 30-years out. 

I dare one of you to locate my post 30-years hence in 2051. I will probably never know.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: bayareabadger on April 13, 2021, 07:39:33 AM
I just bought a used car. My aim is to get a decade plus from this one. 

So let’s talk in 10 years (hopefully) and see where things stand. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 13, 2021, 08:35:06 AM
Fifteen-years out internal combustion engines will not likely be available. It will be hydrogen or EV. I hope you live a long life. In 20-years if you like newer cars, you will live in antiquity and find it increasingly difficult to find fuel.  I suspect EV is a temporary bridge vehicle to hydrogen which will be more dominant 30-years out.

I dare one of you to locate my post 30-years hence in 2051. I will probably never know.

I don't know about those predictions. I see a lot of posts about how EV's are going to become the standard and drive gas and diesel out of the market. And maybe it makes sense when you live in a nice suburban area with plenty of amenities that are readily available. 

But some of us don't live in those areas and depend on vehicles that are much more disconnected from the power grid. While I personally don't have to drive on a daily basis, there are many in our area that do and EV's are not likely to be a viable alternative. 

Then you have to consider other non standard vehicles such as tractors and combines. These machines run for days at a time during the spring and fall. There is no stopping for a couple of hours to charge. They have a very small window to get crops in and out of the fields and don't have time to wait for a charge. For that reason alone, gasoline and diesel will be around for a while. 

Now will battery technology improve to allow for longer run times in the future? Most likely it will, but I have a hard time believing that it will get to the point that it will be a viable alternative in rural communities in the near future. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 08:41:58 AM
Fifteen-years out internal combustion engines will not likely be available. It will be hydrogen or EV. I hope you live a long life. In 20-years if you like newer cars, you will live in antiquity and find it increasingly difficult to find fuel.  I suspect EV is a temporary bridge vehicle to hydrogen which will be more dominant 30-years out.

I dare one of you to locate my post 30-years hence in 2051. I will probably never know.

not 15 years, maybe 30 or 40

technology is often hyped and doesn't follow through as quickly as predicted

I don't mind driving vehicles that are 5-10 years old.

If someone purchases a gasser in 2040, it could certainly be viable in 2050 or 2060

in 2052 I'll be 90

probably shouldn't be driving
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 10:06:16 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/Qw0h1Ql.jpg)
I didn't know @Hawkinole (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=25) was a dirty hippie? :57:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 13, 2021, 10:16:13 AM
Anyone want to see the e-tron unveiling live?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 11:04:59 AM
Saw an ETron a few weeks ago in white while walking the dog... Nice looking car. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 11:52:25 AM
I'm certain ETrons will be much more popular in California than Iowa
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2021, 11:55:28 AM
It seems most of us are "interested" but not ready for obvious reasons.  I suspect a younger crowd would be more interested.  Not that we aren't young fellers.

I think 1.5% of cars on the road are EVs in the US now.  In Norway, over half new cars are EVs.  It takes a while to replace the fleet of course.  I am beginning to see why the majors say they are going to EVs by 2035, or whenever.  If the price gets close, they will become mainstream.

And we will need a lot more electricity.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 11:58:05 AM
I'm certain ETrons will be much more popular in California than Iowa
I suspect Audi as a brand is more popular in California than Iowa... I recall when I was in college, any time you into a rural area of Indiana, seeing any foreign car was a bit rare, much less Euro brands.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 11:59:10 AM
the truth

rural folks tend to drive fords, chevies, and dodges
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 13, 2021, 12:00:14 PM
How quickly a new tech expands is largely affected by how tightly the winners of the status quo hold onto today.  They scratch and claw and resist the new tech until they set it up so that they can be along for the ride.  

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 12:23:02 PM
California might ban the sale of new gassers in 20 years, but that's not going to happen in Nebraska and Iowa for a while longer
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 13, 2021, 12:24:30 PM
Or sometimes the new tech is quite ready to replace what is already in place. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 13, 2021, 12:46:47 PM
How quickly a new tech expands is largely affected by how tightly the winners of the status quo hold onto today.  They scratch and claw and resist the new tech until they set it up so that they can be along for the ride. 


Just can’t help yourself can you?

Of course your very tainted opinion on this is making several false assumptions.  We will ignore the class warfare you seem to implant in everything, and go straight to your assumption that new tech is by definition “ good” or better, and Anyone who doesn’t see it that way ( not one of the lemmings in your famous “ masses” ) is wrong.

herein lies the problem....I don’t give a shit what you think about me buying a gas powered car. It has all the latest tech that is “ better” by the way in respect to safety and convenience. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 13, 2021, 12:59:21 PM
Or sometimes the new tech is quite ready to replace what is already in place.
I'm assuming you said "isn't", in which case, all it would need is a little boost from the billion-dollar companies already in power, resisting the paradigm shift.  
Maybe they're just short-sighted on the short sell?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 01:01:35 PM
How quickly a new tech expands is largely affected by how tightly the winners of the status quo hold onto today.  They scratch and claw and resist the new tech until they set it up so that they can be along for the ride. 
This is what I call narrative-based thinking.

Someone asks: "Why do we need an upstart like Tesla to come in and prove EVs are viable when we have a bunch of entrenched automakers who could already do it? They must be resisting the technology!"

No, they're not. GM was an early adopter of EVs with the original EV-1. In fact, if I remember correctly they were one of the first ones to show the "skateboard" concept of a BEV, where the floor of the car was batteries and you had 4 electric motors, each at one wheel, which allows for a lot more freedom in the design of the cabin relative to having to wedge an engine up front. Toyota was producing hybrids long before Tesla existed. GM went down the plug-in hybrid path with the Volt and Toyota has gone that direction as well. Nissan had the Leaf before Tesla existed, and Chevy has had the Bolt for a couple of years now. Toyota has been the trailblazer on fuel cell tech with their Mirai. It's not like they've all been sitting on their hands.

Conventional automakers have nothing to fear from EVs, honestly. It's not like the oil & gas industries where other energy sources completely supplant them. It's them changing the technology that propels their vehicles from an internal combustion engine to a battery-fed electric motor. In fact, much of the technology is simpler for them than ICEV.

The truth is that I'm going to guess that every major automaker has been in their boardrooms asking the question "How much R&D should we be spending on EVs so that we'll be ready for the switch when it happens?" Judging by all the recent announcements of automakers jumping in, they've been planning for a long time for this.

Tesla got first-mover advantage in this race, but it's still unclear whether they'll be able to scale and compete with the big boys once the big boys really start rolling. Tesla has not been profitable until recently, and today their profitability is STILL not based on car sales--it's the sale of regulatory credits that has moved them from losing money to actually showing an entire year of profitability. Once other automakers are producing their own EVs, they won't need to buy regulatory credits from Tesla. Can Tesla keep its advantage then? Unclear...

The big automakers haven't jumped into the BEV race because they didn't believe they could make money at it yet, not because they were "keeping alternative technologies down". Now that it's reaching a level of maturity, they're all starting to jump right in.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 13, 2021, 01:09:22 PM
This is what I call narrative-based thinking.

Someone asks: "Why do we need an upstart like Tesla to come in and prove EVs are viable when we have a bunch of entrenched automakers who could already do it? They must be resisting the technology!"

No, they're not. GM was an early adopter of EVs with the original EV-1. In fact, if I remember correctly they were one of the first ones to show the "skateboard" concept of a BEV, where the floor of the car was batteries and you had 4 electric motors, each at one wheel, which allows for a lot more freedom in the design of the cabin relative to having to wedge an engine up front. Toyota was producing hybrids long before Tesla existed. GM went down the plug-in hybrid path with the Volt and Toyota has gone that direction as well. Nissan had the Leaf before Tesla existed, and Chevy has had the Bolt for a couple of years now. Toyota has been the trailblazer on fuel cell tech with their Mirai. It's not like they've all been sitting on their hands.

Conventional automakers have nothing to fear from EVs, honestly. It's not like the oil & gas industries where other energy sources completely supplant them. It's them changing the technology that propels their vehicles from an internal combustion engine to a battery-fed electric motor. In fact, much of the technology is simpler for them than ICEV.

The truth is that I'm going to guess that every major automaker has been in their boardrooms asking the question "How much R&D should we be spending on EVs so that we'll be ready for the switch when it happens?" Judging by all the recent announcements of automakers jumping in, they've been planning for a long time for this.

Tesla got first-mover advantage in this race, but it's still unclear whether they'll be able to scale and compete with the big boys once the big boys really start rolling. Tesla has not been profitable until recently, and today their profitability is STILL not based on car sales--it's the sale of regulatory credits that has moved them from losing money to actually showing an entire year of profitability. Once other automakers are producing their own EVs, they won't need to buy regulatory credits from Tesla. Can Tesla keep its advantage then? Unclear...

The big automakers haven't jumped into the BEV race because they didn't believe they could make money at it yet, not because they were "keeping alternative technologies down". Now that it's reaching a level of maturity, they're all starting to jump right in.

Sure, but they dictate the pace.  They develop a concept car that won't be produced for over a decade.  All of that is smoke and mirrors as they progress as slowly as the publicly-traded monies tell them to.  


Of course they've been planning for a long time.....biding their time.  I think it's naive to suggest they're not squeezing every last penny out of the internal-combustion engine before it becomes  a relic.  They're deliberately walking the line of slow-playing EVs while careful not to fall far behind any major progress upstarts make.  

It's obvious, isn't it?  I really don't think I'm screaming 'conspiracy theory' here.  The major automakers (and basically every major industry in the US) advance at the speed of the dollar made, not as quickly as they could or should.  

We'd all be in EVs today if GM and Ford decided it'd make them an extra dollar back in 1993.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 01:28:39 PM
Sure, but they dictate the pace.  They develop a concept car that won't be produced for over a decade.  All of that is smoke and mirrors as they progress as slowly as the publicly-traded monies tell them to. 


Of course they've been planning for a long time.....biding their time.  I think it's naive to suggest they're not squeezing every last penny out of the internal-combustion engine before it becomes  a relic.  They're deliberately walking the line of slow-playing EVs while careful not to fall far behind any major progress upstarts make. 

It's obvious, isn't it?  I really don't think I'm screaming 'conspiracy theory' here.  The major automakers (and basically every major industry in the US) advance at the speed of the dollar made, not as quickly as they could or should. 

We'd all be in EVs today if GM and Ford decided it'd make them an extra dollar back in 1993. 
:confuse:

Has it occurred to you that in a competitive market, the automakers don't "decide" what will make them an extra dollar? That they are subject to the forces of technology and economics that are effectively decided for them by a competitive market?

BEV technology is easy. Much easier than continuing to fight the emissions regulations on ICEV. It's the economics that are hard. 

Let me ask you this... Let's say you're a multi-billion dollar operation like Ford. What's the incentive to slow-play EV? 

About the only reason I can see for the big guys to avoid EV is that unlike some other components, they won't have much control over the supply chain for batteries, and batteries are a huge component of the bill of material cost for a BEV. That means that it is really hard for them to make battery tech a competitive advantage, whereas engine tech CAN be a competitive advantage. HOWEVER, that also has an upside--they don't have to develop new battery technology to make BEV viable. 

So again... What's their incentive to slow-play EV? WHY are they doing it, if you believe they're doing it?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 01:33:10 PM
Supply chain for batteries

that could possibly be the reason Tesla is out in front at the moment

is there any company in the world today or small group of companies that can produce enough batteries to put 10% of the new vehicles sold next year on the road?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 13, 2021, 01:38:29 PM
:confuse:



Let me ask you this... Let's say you're a multi-billion dollar operation like Ford. What's the incentive to slow-play EV?

The answer is in the question:  with things being how they are, I'm a multi-billion dollar corporation.  EVs are an unknown.  Timeline (ultimately) unknown.  Costs unknown.  And like our conversations here, we don't know the system in place in lieu of gas stations, etc.

I became a billion-dollar outfit with the known.  I'm on top today.  Why would I be in any hurry to get to tomorrow?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 01:49:08 PM
Supply chain for batteries

that could possibly be the reason Tesla is out in front at the moment

is there any company in the world today or small group of companies that can produce enough batteries to put 10% of the new vehicles sold next year on the road?
Tesla is still partnered with Panasonic, a legit battery giant, on their battery technology:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Technology/Tesla-strikes-new-Panasonic-battery-deal-as-sales-and-shares-soar

They keep claiming they're going to produce their own tech, but like most Tesla announcements of what major things they are going to do in the future, timelines have a way of shifting FAR to the right lol...

I've been asking about battery production capacity for a long time and nobody seems to really want to talk about it. That may also be a scale issue because to make batteries, you need to mine lots of lithium, and lesser amounts of other harder to find metals... However I can't get a clear answer either way in all of my research on how easily that will scale.

That said, I do suspect that battery production will by nature grow incrementally as BEV demand increases. Again it's economic--battery producers would be stupid to flood the market with tons of batteries before demand is established, because then pricing will hit the floor and they'll lose their asses. By nature it's still all about the state of the technology--as technology improves, cost to build batteries per Wh will diminish. At that point it puts BEVs into the reach of less affluent customers, which increases demand. That increased demand balances the cost so the battery producers can increase production and still make profits. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 13, 2021, 01:52:05 PM
 Because your shareholders don’t give a damn about today’s earnings. 

They care about tomorrow’s.   

Or they bail.   They must illustrate a detailed plan for earnings growth integrated with the required investments in technology. 

Obviously that timeline for investment would have been disaster back in the 90s.   Failed company- list jobs. 

Even now, the evidence suggests proceeding carefully and will accelerate.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 01:58:14 PM
I've been asking about battery production capacity for a long time and nobody seems to really want to talk about it. That may also be a scale issue because to make batteries, you need to mine lots of lithium, and lesser amounts of other harder to find metals... However I can't get a clear answer either way in all of my research on how easily that will scale.

yes, I'm simply wondering out loud, if GM or Ford decided to jump "all in" and plan to build 50% of their new vehicles next year as EVs, would it even be possible to produce enough batteries.

or if the goal was 50% production of new GMs in 2025?  or 2030 and they got a head start?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 13, 2021, 02:00:25 PM


Or they bail.  They must illustrate a detailed plan for earnings growth integrated with the required investments in technology.


Right.  That's why they're incentivized to be in control and dictate pace.  Dictate pace, you hit your marks along the way.  

You don't become a massive, bloated hog of a success story by being hopeful and acting risky when it comes to these things, guys.  You dictate and influence all you can.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 02:05:17 PM
The answer is in the question:  with things being how they are, I'm a multi-billion dollar corporation.  EVs are an unknown.  Timeline (ultimately) unknown.  Costs unknown.  And like our conversations here, we don't know the system in place in lieu of gas stations, etc.

I became a billion-dollar outfit with the known.  I'm on top today.  Why would I be in any hurry to get to tomorrow?
Make more money. Beat your competitors to the technology. Reward your shareholders and see your stock price go up. Good PR. 

The BMW CEO lost his job partly because he was seen as falling behind on EVs. How's that for an incentive?

Not only that, EVs are only partially an unknown. Nissan was already there with the Leaf, not a concept car. Toyota was already down the road of battery technology with the Prius and then a whole host of hybrids, eventually including plug-in hybrids. GM was already dipping their toes into the technology with the Volt, a plug-in hybrid. Almost every automaker was offering hybrids to improve fuel economy. Toyota has production vehicles out there with hydrogen fuel cells, and they're the only ones I'm aware of pushing that right now. 

What does that mean? It means that literally every one of them was already working with batteries and electric motors. 

None of these multi-billion dollars are going to bet the entire farm on a rapid EV transition, but they were ALL working to get to tomorrow. 

But you want to make them out to be the villains because they're not doing it fast enough for you
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 02:07:32 PM
Right.  That's why they're incentivized to be in control and dictate pace.  Dictate pace, you hit your marks along the way. 

You don't become a massive, bloated hog of a success story by being hopeful and acting risky when it comes to these things, guys.  You dictate and influence all you can. 
You can only dictate your own pace, not the rest of the market's. 

If you choose a pace that's too risky, you lose. If you choose a pace that's too cautious, you lose. Because you can't control the rest of the market.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 02:16:08 PM
Tesla is obviously trying to push the pace

if it's so easy, why hasn't Tesla sold 5 million units?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 13, 2021, 02:56:01 PM
Just can’t help yourself can you?

Of course your very tainted opinion on this is making several false assumptions.  We will ignore the class warfare you seem to implant in everything, and go straight to your assumption that new tech is by definition “ good” or better, and Anyone who doesn’t see it that way ( not one of the lemmings in your famous “ masses” ) is wrong.

herein lies the problem....I don’t give a shit what you think about me buying a gas powered car. It has all the latest tech that is “ better” by the way in respect to safety and convenience.
lol
I'm basically suggesting major automakers are looking out for themselves and you react like I shot your dog.  

You're weird.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 13, 2021, 02:58:54 PM
Make more money. Beat your competitors to the technology. Reward your shareholders and see your stock price go up. Good PR.

This would be true IF they weren't all working in lockstep.  These guys don't make company decisions, they play golf and make INDUSTRY decisions.  Because it's good for the group.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2021, 03:53:17 PM
We'd all be in EVs today if GM and Ford decided it'd make them an extra dollar back in 1993. 
In 1993 ....   do you really believe this is true?

EVs are still pushing technology TODAY almost 30 years later with obvious limitations.  The tech is still developing to make them a rational choice.  GM and Ford couldn't have changed that.  The GM EV from 2000 was a very very limited vehicle because the tech did not exist.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 13, 2021, 04:00:48 PM
In 1993 ....  do you really believe this is true?

EVs are still pushing technology TODAY almost 30 years later with obvious limitations.  The tech is still developing to make them a rational choice.  GM and Ford couldn't have changed that.  The GM EV from 2000 was a very very limited vehicle because the tech did not exist.
Who was working on advancing the tech in 1993?   **this should probably read "getting it to market"?
Top men? 
Doubtful. 
1993 was a year pulled out of the air, but yes, I believe we could have had it in the 90s up to today if it was a hair-on-fire priority.  But keep in mind, you sound like you're comparing what would be acceptable today and comparing it to back then.  I didn't say that.  We may have been driving around the EV equivalent of a crank-up car from 1904, but they could've been widespread, faults and all.
We wouldn't have known any better that it sucked.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2021, 04:19:23 PM
Interesting.  I have no clue on what evidence or logic that is based beyond some notion corporations are evil.

Corporations attempt to provide what the customers want profitably.  They aren't always good at it.  GM made an effort that was widely lampooned 1996-1999.

General Motors EV1 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1)

They made a bit over a thousand vehicles.  The market wasn't there, in large part because the technology wasn't there.  The technology TODAY isn't "there", if by there one means a car with competitive economics and general capabilities to an ICE vehicle of similar capabilities.  That is why 98.5% of cars today are not EVs.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 13, 2021, 04:50:36 PM
You can only dictate your own pace, not the rest of the market's.

If you choose a pace that's too risky, you lose. If you choose a pace that's too cautious, you lose. Because you can't control the rest of the market.
Your wasting your time with this guy.  He is beyond clueless about how businesses work, succeed or fail and has never been near a Boardroom.  

Like the ignorant masses he so often criticizes- he forms and spouts opinions about things he has a knowledge deficit in. As you said, narrative thinking.  All big companies and those who run them are EEVViIILL!  Poor guy. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2021, 04:52:15 PM
Your wasting your time with this guy.  He is beyond clueless about how businesses work, succeed or fail and has never been near a Boardroom. 

Like the ignorant masses he so often criticizes- he forms and spouts opinions about things he has a knowledge deficit in. As you said, narrative thinking.  All big companies and those who run them are EEVViIILL!  Poor guy.
I find the attitude to be interesting, and wonder on what it is based.  I worked for a large company and frankly did not enjoy it, but it was work.  There were a lot of issues.  But the company was trying to earn money.  They often were stupid about it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 13, 2021, 04:54:38 PM
I find the attitude to be interesting, and wonder on what it is based.  I worked for a large company and frankly did not enjoy it, but it was work.  There were a lot of issues.  But the company was trying to earn money.  They often were stupid about it.
It’s the old Schtick.  

“ the man is keeping us down”

been around for a long time lol
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 05:15:00 PM
easier to blame "the man" than to take responsibility
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 05:16:57 PM
lol
I'm basically suggesting major automakers are looking out for themselves and you react like I shot your dog. 

You're weird.
This would be true IF they weren't all working in lockstep.  These guys don't make company decisions, they play golf and make INDUSTRY decisions.  Because it's good for the group.
Obviously they're looking out for themselves and their bottom line. They're supposed to do that. They ain't non-profits! 

But again, you're complaining now that they're all, as an industry, shutting down an alternative technology that doesn't even hurt them. It changes the powertrain in their cars, but it's not like they're being replaced by teleportation or jetpacks or something else that would legitimately threaten them. As you can see, they're all starting to release EVs, which they wouldn't do if EVs as a technology were changing the entire paradigm of transportation.

And then you treat them as a cartel, who all are behaving in lockstep through shady backroom or golf course deals. What, you think the CEO of Ford is playing golf with the CEO of Hyundai and the CEO of VW and the CEO of Honda and all agree that they're going to shove technology [tech which doesn't hurt them] under the rug and that nobody will dare defect?

I think you should research Occam's Razor--the simplest explanation is that the tech is a lot harder than you think it is, which is why it's only available in luxury cars or range-limited cars today. Not because of nefarious CEOs trying to squash it. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2021, 05:25:03 PM
This reminds me of the ancient conspiracy notion that someone had developed an 85 mpg carburetor but GM or Exxon or the Saudis had bought the patent to suppress it.

This was ludicrous on several levels but it had some play even before social media happened.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 05:35:45 PM
it was true, ask Nubbz

you just had to place the correct magnets on the fuel line in the proper places
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 13, 2021, 05:36:53 PM
Geesh, yeah, I recall the magnet ads for your fuel line.  Holy cow.  What other complete fake things have been foisted on the unwary?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 05:39:15 PM
Geesh, yeah, I recall the magnet ads for your fuel line.  Holy cow.  What other complete fake things have been foisted on the unwary?
Homeopathy.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 13, 2021, 05:43:00 PM
On-topic, remember the various vortex air intake inserts?

Yeah, because if those worked to improve power and gas mileage, they would be standard equipment, not some aftermarket thing not sold in stores, as seen on TV, right?!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 13, 2021, 06:10:28 PM
Geesh, yeah, I recall the magnet ads for your fuel line.  Holy cow.  What other complete fake things have been foisted on the unwary?
one of my favs are the copper-fit line of health elastic braces for your elbows and knees and other body parts
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on April 13, 2021, 07:11:14 PM


I bet those shriner cars get good mileage. 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Shriner_syrian_corvette.jpg/220px-Shriner_syrian_corvette.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 03:26:24 AM
one of my favs are the copper-fit line of health elastic braces for your elbows and knees and other body parts
I bought up at least 100 copper-fit masks.  They have a neck string so they can just dangle when they're not covering your face!  They're amazing!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 03:28:54 AM
Interesting.  I have no clue on what evidence or logic that is based beyond some notion corporations are evil.
I say they always act in the best interest of their shareholders.
I say they dictate the pace of tech progress.
I say this and that, all along pretty mundane (to me) lines of being in power and maintaining that power and wanting to remain in power.
.
But YOU choose to use the word "evil."  That's interesting.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 03:31:01 AM
Your wasting your time with this guy.  He is beyond clueless about how businesses work, succeed or fail and has never been near a Boardroom. 

Like the ignorant masses he so often criticizes- he forms and spouts opinions about things he has a knowledge deficit in. As you said, narrative thinking.  All big companies and those who run them are EEVViIILL!  Poor guy.
Another person taking my ho-hum description of major corporations' behaviors and goals, and calling it evil. 
Again, interesting. 
.
Why do you guys feel the need to interject ethical judgement?  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 03:39:22 AM

I think you should research Occam's Razor--the simplest explanation is that the tech is a lot harder than you think it is, which is why it's only available in luxury cars or range-limited cars today. Not because of nefarious CEOs trying to squash it.
This is another issue I have with automakers.
Tiers.
Tiers of every type of vehicle in every class.  
Probably a range of like 40 vehicles if you differentiate the base model, SE, PV, DVD, Limited, etc....
.
How much would a corvette cost if Chevy simply produced their one, best car?  Or one best sports car and one best 4-door and one best truck.  Wouldn't each of them cost far less?  

No more "which model" crap.  The best of this model.  Fewer range of parts, fewer differentiated tasks along the assembly line.  Larger bulk purchases of parts.  

I know.  I'm wrong and ignorant.  I know the masses want 938 different thises and thats.  It's just another inefficiency.  Don't bother shitting on this post, it's just another absurdity.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 14, 2021, 09:36:55 AM
They tried one size fits all somewhere else, comrade
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 11:00:15 AM
And so it's automatically a bad idea?  You'd have plenty of options, still.  
Ford's best SUV, Chevy's best SUV, on and and on. 
.
Tiers of vehicles is how they extract every dollar from our hands.  I want a car, I like this car, but it's a little too expensive.  Oh, that's okay, here, we offer it with manual windows and fewer safety options.  Now you can barely afford it.  Let me get the paperwork started....
.
The best possible car in each class from each company would be plenty of options, drag down prices, and everyone had a decent ride.  Evil, right?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 14, 2021, 11:05:57 AM
best possible would be too expensive for many of the masses
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 14, 2021, 11:32:24 AM
And so it's automatically a bad idea?  You'd have plenty of options, still. 
Ford's best SUV, Chevy's best SUV, on and and on.
.
Tiers of vehicles is how they extract every dollar from our hands.  I want a car, I like this car, but it's a little too expensive.  Oh, that's okay, here, we offer it with manual windows and fewer safety options.  Now you can barely afford it.  Let me get the paperwork started....
.
The best possible car in each class from each company would be plenty of options, drag down prices, and everyone had a decent ride.  Evil, right?
Okay, OAM... You've convinced me. Having all these different options and tiers is just way too confusing, so it would make much more sense to simply have ONE model that is the best model with all the options.

As a corollary, I'm sure you'd agree that the best version of Whoa Nellie is the version that contains ALL the teams you've painstakingly created. It's just so damn confusing for a buyer to have to pick and choose which teams he wants, and which teams he doesn't want. And then you, as an evil businessman, tell the customer that if they want more teams than the standard offering they have to PAY MORE?! And I'm sure it's a lot of work for you to tailor every single outgoing order to what the individual customer wants. It would help the customer so much to simply have all the teams. 

So I assume you're going to follow your own advice and only offer the best version of Whoa Nellie, and stop all this silly customization? 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 14, 2021, 11:49:09 AM
why have a best possible from each company

why not just the best possible?

no need for multiple greedy companies
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 11:53:01 AM
why have a best possible from each company

why not just the best possible?

no need for multiple greedy companies
Using mother Russia as a boogeyman doesn't work, guys.  It's 2021.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 11:53:31 AM
Okay, OAM... You've convinced me. Having all these different options and tiers is just way too confusing, so it would make much more sense to simply have ONE model that is the best model with all the options.

As a corollary, I'm sure you'd agree that the best version of Whoa Nellie is the version that contains ALL the teams you've painstakingly created. It's just so damn confusing for a buyer to have to pick and choose which teams he wants, and which teams he doesn't want. And then you, as an evil businessman, tell the customer that if they want more teams than the standard offering they have to PAY MORE?! And I'm sure it's a lot of work for you to tailor every single outgoing order to what the individual customer wants. It would help the customer so much to simply have all the teams.

So I assume you're going to follow your own advice and only offer the best version of Whoa Nellie, and stop all this silly customization?

You tore a groin muscle with that stretch.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 14, 2021, 11:59:05 AM
Using mother Russia as a boogeyman doesn't work, guys.  It's 2021. 
how about using China?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 14, 2021, 12:11:54 PM
You tore a groin muscle with that stretch.
Ahh, so it's different when it's something you know about... But you are such an expert on automotive marketing and supply chains that you can confidently state that the way the automakers are doing it is stupid.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on April 14, 2021, 12:16:06 PM
how about using China?


Their single passenger cars also appear as though they would get terrific gas mileage. 


(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Eng_Renault_Twizy_ZE.jpg/1200px-Eng_Renault_Twizy_ZE.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 14, 2021, 12:36:32 PM
gas mileage?

Thought that thing would burn coal
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 14, 2021, 01:09:50 PM
Autonomous self-driving electrical vehicles to begin delivering pizzas in the Houston area:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/No-need-to-tip-the-driver-Nuro-Domino-s-16093640.php





(https://i.imgur.com/CIHjWIG.jpg)



(https://i.imgur.com/BvPKMFk.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on April 14, 2021, 01:11:32 PM
Well in any event it looks like it would get pretty good coal mileage. It's like half a smart car. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 14, 2021, 01:17:15 PM
Autonomous self-driving electrical vehicles to begin delivering pizzas in the Houston area:

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/No-need-to-tip-the-driver-Nuro-Domino-s-16093640.php
another good reason to stay out of H-Town
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 14, 2021, 01:20:52 PM
another good reason to stay out of H-Town

I was just thinking, man, the employment prospects for thousands of Texas A&M graduates just got way slimmer.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 14, 2021, 01:36:09 PM
and University of Houston Cougars
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2021, 01:49:20 PM
Before around 1960, domestic autos were one size, basically, full size, though you could get two doors, four doors, and wagons, and they started with 2-3 trim levels.  Americans like choice.  VW introduced the Beetle and it had some success, so GM countered with their rear engine car, which didn't do that well (Nader did a hatch it job on it, largely out of ignorance).

Then, as there was consumer demand for smaller cars, GM et al. started providing a Chevelle and a Chevy II, so you had three sizes to fit your needs.  I think personally they went overboard, and of course ended up killed off Olds and Pontiac.  I think they should have killed off Buick and kept Pontiac, but whatever.

Nobody but GM tried to build an EV in the '90s, and the GM-1 demonstrated that neither the demand nor the technology was available.  Tesla worked on both items of course and has done an amazing job in my view.  The standard automakers appear to be catching up some, but they still sell at a loss whatever they sell.

We will hit a point in X years where half the new car sales in the US are EVs (not trucks).  My guess is 2030-2035.  It hinges a lot on battery tech and cost.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 14, 2021, 01:54:13 PM
It's probably the Internal Combustion Engine lobby keeping EV's down. ;)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 14, 2021, 01:54:25 PM
to get to 50% from where we are now in less than 15 years will be something

hopefully we do whatever it is w/o government subsidies 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 14, 2021, 01:55:00 PM
It's probably the Internal Combustion Engine lobby keeping EV's down. ;)
big oil


as opposed to small or medium oil
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on April 14, 2021, 02:03:10 PM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Gremlin_side_%285903000893%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 02:27:57 PM
It's probably the Internal Combustion Engine lobby keeping EV's down. ;)
It seems many here are oblivious to the powers that be here in the US and their "evil" (their words, not mine) deeds they do to stay in power (ie- richer than wealthy) - something I find entirely inevitable.
And that same crowd that turns a blind eye to it acts like the failures of socialism as inevitable.  

There's a connection there, somewhere.  As if it's acceptable in the name of selfishness (if unfair, then use 'for one's best interest') and unacceptable in the name of selflessness (if unfair, then use 'for other's best interests).
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 14, 2021, 02:34:39 PM
It seems many here are oblivious to the powers that be here in the US and their "evil" (their words, not mine) deeds they do to stay in power (ie- richer than wealthy) - something I find entirely inevitable.
And that same crowd that turns a blind eye to it acts like the failures of socialism as inevitable. 

There's a connection there, somewhere.  As if it's acceptable in the name of selfishness (if unfair, then use 'for one's best interest') and unacceptable in the name of selflessness (if unfair, then use 'for other's best interests).
You seem to think you know more about how these companies run their businesses than they do. Maybe they're evil oligarch's. Maybe they're not.

You have not explained why you think it's important to tell them to make a one-size-fits-all car but you don't see the intelligence in making a one-size-fits-all Whoa Nellie game?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 02:56:27 PM
My game is what it is.  It's one game.  You play it.  The directions are the same for everyone.  What teams you play as are akin to the color of the car you choose to drive.
It doesn't work.  Not a sick burn.  Not anything, really.  But by all means, continue, lol.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 02:57:18 PM
And again, I never labeled how corporations behave as "evil," as far as I can remember.  Others have chosen to do that.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 14, 2021, 03:24:53 PM
My game is what it is.  It's one game.  You play it.  The directions are the same for everyone.  What teams you play as are akin to the color of the car you choose to drive.
It doesn't work.  Not a sick burn.  Not anything, really.  But by all means, continue, lol.
Why should automakers supply different colors of cars, anyway? That's just more inventory and more paint suppliers to manage... If you're going all-out, let's just standardize cars on one color. Probably bright hazard orange would be good, so they all stand out--it's a safety feature!

Nah, the number and selection of teams you play is very much down to personal preference, how much money you want to spend, and what it's worth to you.

You can't disagree that the best version of the game is a full set of all the teams, can you? After all, that gives every consumer what they want, and more

But you're not willing to supply that at a price people would willingly pay because the value for those extra teams, while it's positive for nearly every person looking to purchase, isn't worth the expense you'd need to charge to make selling the game worth it.

THAT is why there are different tiers, models, options packages, etc for cars. Different people have different preferences, and if you make them all buy the fully-loaded version, most of them will say "eh, I can't afford that and it's got a whole bunch of stuff I don't care about."
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 14, 2021, 03:46:53 PM
Are you married to the auto industry or something?
.
I must be simply overestimating the decreased costs of only using a limited set of parts instead of an expansive variety of parts.  And at least part of the increased pricing of automatic this vs manual that is more than the actual increased cost of making it.  It's the convenience, no?  If every car I make uses the same parts, I can certainly acquire them in larger quantities, driving the price down.  

None of this matters anyway, because it'll never happen.  You guys seem to get really bent over my "why nots" and "what ifs".  
I don't know how many classes of passenger vehicle there are.....let's say 10.  Is it really so horrific to suggest maybe we only need 6?  That those 6 would cost less than they do now, as 6 of the ten?  That's evil?  

You don't think there are 10 classes so that you can have one in mind just to be upsold to the next one, extracting X-number of dollars from you?  You don't think the auto industry is bloated?  Ask them yourself, as Ford said they're just eliminating all non-Mustang cars.  I guess one of their VPs reads this forum, huh?  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 14, 2021, 04:04:30 PM
Are you married to the auto industry or something?
.
I must be simply overestimating the decreased costs of only using a limited set of parts instead of an expansive variety of parts.  And at least part of the increased pricing of automatic this vs manual that is more than the actual increased cost of making it.  It's the convenience, no?  If every car I make uses the same parts, I can certainly acquire them in larger quantities, driving the price down. 

None of this matters anyway, because it'll never happen.  You guys seem to get really bent over my "why nots" and "what ifs". 
I don't know how many classes of passenger vehicle there are.....let's say 10.  Is it really so horrific to suggest maybe we only need 6?  That those 6 would cost less than they do now, as 6 of the ten?  That's evil? 

You don't think there are 10 classes so that you can have one in mind just to be upsold to the next one, extracting X-number of dollars from you?  You don't think the auto industry is bloated?  Ask them yourself, as Ford said they're just eliminating all non-Mustang cars.  I guess one of their VPs reads this forum, huh? 
Auto makers will build what they believe that they can sell to the customer. And based on the number of different models and classes of vehicles, there is a wide range of customer preferences in the market.

Being as the auto makers continue to sell a large variety of vehicles, my guess is that it is profitable for them to do so.

Being as the cars being built are being bought by the public, my guess is that the public in general believes the cost of the vehicle is commensurate with the value it provides.

As for why Ford is eliminating all non-Mustang cars, it is because the non Mustangs are not being bought by the customers, they are preferring to buy SUV's. It's not rocket science.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2021, 04:13:59 PM
Yeah, SUVs and  trucks are the profitable segment for domestic car makers.  I think it's reasonable to note they are late to the game on EVs, and have been pushed by Tesla.  They can see the numbers and writing on the wall.  Large companies are by and large recalcitrant, they fear change and risk.  That is a big reason many of them go bust over time.  It's also a reason many of them stay large for a time, they avoid risk.

We had a meeting with folks from Kodak circa 1990 and I asked them if they were concerned about electronic cameras, just coming onto the market then.  They said they would never take the place of film.  I was a bit dubious about it, they were making strides in sensors at the time that were impressive.  We all know what happened.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2021, 04:16:53 PM
These were the Dow 30 companies in 1961, US Steel had been dropped and the current listing.  There isn't a lot of overlap. 

May 6, 1991[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Historical_components_of_the_Dow_Jones_Industrial_Average&action=edit&section=18)]

Allied-Signal IncorporatedEastman Kodak CompanyMinnesota Mining & Manufacturing Company
Aluminum Company of AmericaExxon CorporationPhilip Morris Companies Inc.
American Express CompanyGeneral Electric CompanyThe Procter & Gamble Company
AT&T Corporation †
(formerly American Telephone and Telegraph Company)
General Motors CorporationSears Roebuck & Company
Bethlehem Steel CorporationGoodyear Tire and Rubber CompanyTexaco Incorporated
The Boeing CompanyInternational Business Machines CorporationUnion Carbide Corporation
Caterpillar Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_Inc.) ↑International Paper CompanyUnited Technologies Corporation
Chevron CorporationJ.P. Morgan & Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPMorgan_Chase) ↑The Walt Disney Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Walt_Disney_Company) ↑
The Coca-Cola CompanyMcDonald's CorporationWestinghouse Electric Corporation
E.I. du Pont de Nemours & CompanyMerck & Co., Inc.F. W. Woolworth Company

August 31, 2020[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Historical_components_of_the_Dow_Jones_Industrial_Average&action=edit&section=1)]

3M Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M)The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldman_Sachs)Nike, Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike,_Inc.)
American Express Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Express)The Home Depot, Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Home_Depot)The Procter & Gamble Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procter_%26_Gamble)
Amgen Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amgen_Inc.) ↑Honeywell International Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell) ↑salesforce.com, inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salesforce) ↑
Apple Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc.)Intel Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel)The Travelers Companies, Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Travelers_Companies)
The Boeing Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing)International Business Machines Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM)UnitedHealth Group Incorporated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UnitedHealth_Group)
Caterpillar Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_Inc.)Johnson & Johnson (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_%26_Johnson)Verizon Communications Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_Communications)
Chevron Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevron_Corporation)JPMorgan Chase & Co. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPMorgan_Chase)Visa Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_Inc.)
Cisco Systems, Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisco_Systems)McDonald's Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald's)Walgreens Boots Alliance, Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walgreens_Boots_Alliance)
The Coca-Cola Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Coca-Cola_Company)Merck & Co., Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merck_%26_Co.)Walmart Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walmart)
Dow Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_Inc.)Microsoft Corporation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft)The Walt Disney Company (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Walt_Disney_Company)


Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 14, 2021, 04:26:27 PM
Are you married to the auto industry or something?
No. 

You just seem to have an incredibly simplistic idea of how things work, and I'm pointing out that you don't know what the eff you're talking about.


Quote
I must be simply overestimating the decreased costs of only using a limited set of parts instead of an expansive variety of parts.  And at least part of the increased pricing of automatic this vs manual that is more than the actual increased cost of making it.  It's the convenience, no?  If every car I make uses the same parts, I can certainly acquire them in larger quantities, driving the price down. 
Yes, you absolutely are overestimating the decreased costs of only using a limited set of parts. 

Car companies ALREADY try to share as many parts between models as they can, because that does help costs. A car "platform", i.e. chassis, is often shared between multiple models and multiple makes, both within a company (i.e. Ford/Lincoln) and across companies (i.e. Ford/Mazda have shared platforms in the past--not sure if they still do). 

However as you've probably figured out from printing your game, it's not like there's a linear relationship between pricing and volume such that if you buy enough volume, the price approaches zero... No, the higher the volume, the closer the price approaches production cost. If I need a profit of $X to justify doing business, I can sell 10 units at cost+X/10 or I can sell 100 units at cost+X/100... 



Quote
None of this matters anyway, because it'll never happen.  You guys seem to get really bent over my "why nots" and "what ifs". 
I don't know how many classes of passenger vehicle there are.....let's say 10.  Is it really so horrific to suggest maybe we only need 6?  That those 6 would cost less than they do now, as 6 of the ten?  That's evil? 

There are 330M people in the US, and I'll throw out a number that say 200M of them are of driving age. Those 200M buy about 17M new automobiles per year. When you look at the incomes, preferences, family size, vehicle usage patterns, etc of 17M cars sold per year, it gives you a TON of variability.

The automakers produce what they can sell. You know how you know that? They stop producing things that don't sell well enough, like my beloved Ford Flex which is not being carried forward post-2019. BTW the main reason this died was that it was sharing a platform with a class of Lincoln vehicles, and when that vehicle platform was being refreshed it didn't make sense to redesign the Flex for a new platform because it didn't sell well.

This is the point at which the market is self-correcting. If automakers produce too many classes of vehicles, then certain classes will have difficulty selling, and be discontinued. That's how it works. 


Quote
You don't think there are 10 classes so that you can have one in mind just to be upsold to the next one, extracting X-number of dollars from you?  You don't think the auto industry is bloated?  Ask them yourself, as Ford said they're just eliminating all non-Mustang cars.  I guess one of their VPs reads this forum, huh? 
Ford responded to market demand--the market wants a lot more CUVs and a lot fewer sedans. They now have 7 different CUVs/SUVs:


So they got rid of most sedans domestically to make room for the Ecosport which has been available internationally but was brought into the US, and for the new Bronco and Mach-E. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 14, 2021, 04:29:47 PM
As usual this thread went so far off topic it's unreal.  

First off I think everybody is thinking about electric cars all wrong.  You're looking at them through the eyes of someone who grew up in the ICE era, where combustion engines were the norm, where you fill your car or truck up once or twice a week in 5-10 minutes.  ICE engines are at the peak of their technology.  Sure, we've all seen how much more powerful and efficient they've gotten in the last ~20 years.  A V8 engine from 2020 has almost double the horsepower from a V8 engine from 1990 (Chevy 350 in 1990 made ~220 HP, chevy 5.3L in 2020 makes 355 HP).  I would argue that power increments, and efficiency increments are not going to be so easily achieved.  

EV's are evolving all the time.  GM certainly had an EV in the 1990's but only because they were forced to by CARB and other state mandates that were pushing for Zero Emission Vehicles at the time.  GM made a half-hearted attempt at an EV just to show how unfeasible it is, CARB caved, and GM immediately pulled all EV's and destroyed them.  I wouldn't call the EV-1 a failure however.  Many, many people loved them and did not want to turn them in.  GM would only lease them out in very limited areas and the supply never kept up with demand.  They had one little assembly line in the corner of a larger plant, they never tooled it up for "mass production" and never had any intent on doing so.  

Tesla, from the get-go has pushed EV's solely for the purpose of advancing the technology and getting rid of fossil fuel usage in the transportation sector.  They did not invent the EV but they did manage to scale the lithium-ion battery technology we take for granted today.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2021, 04:37:52 PM
As usual this thread went so far off topic it's unreal. 

First off I think everybody is thinking about electric cars all wrong. 
Specifically, how?  I'm seeing a lot of cautious optimism from most folks here.  What is wrong about that?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 14, 2021, 04:44:10 PM
My father in law bought an EV last year, a chevy Bolt.  It's stated range is ~260 miles on a single charge.  He averages 5 miles per kWh of driving, or 20 kWh per 100 miles.  Since electricity here is ~$0.12 per kWh it costs him about $2.40 to drive 100 miles.  I will admit that he does drive like an old man, slow and steady.  And having driven the car I can tell you that this thing is FUN to drive.  It's fast, it's powerful, and it's pretty cool to zip around in.  The EV's, even as they grow larger and more capable will always be more energy efficient than their gas counter parts and on a unit of energy used easily outpace gas and diesel engines.  

You charge an EV at home at night.  The company i work for, listed on the Dow index above, has chargers here at work for EV's as well.  Some places around town have them, you can even plug in and charge for free (they assume you are shopping/doing business there but they don't really check).  I'm sure that will change as EV use becomes more wide-scale.  I'm sure you've noticed lately all the new paper-plated Teslas running around.  I see at least 3-5 everyday in the little area of ~30k population I live in.  Not 3-5 a day total, 3-5 new ones with paper plates.  I see 10-15 everyday total and growing weekly.  

If you compare the EV car era to the smartphone era I'd say we're right about the Motorola RZR.  OK, that one is not really a smartphone, but it was at the very last of the flip phone era and probably the most popular flip phone.  Tesla's may be a BlackBerry, but the battery tech is still not there. 

EV's are increasing in range, decreasing in charge time, and decreasing in cost.  They're fast and fun.  They're cheaper to operate. There is evidence that you may never have to replace the battery in an EV in anything less than 200,000 miles, but the jury is still out.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 14, 2021, 04:49:30 PM
I think we discussed all that in this thread.

The real question is when breakeven occurs, compare the Bolt with an equivalent Chevy Cruze (which won't be made too much longer).



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 14, 2021, 07:21:18 PM
So my F-I-L has actually bought two EV's.  The first Bolt, which I picked up for him in Dallas in Feb. 2020 (we live S of Houston) was totaled in a wreck by a drunk driver about 2-3 months ago.  It cost him about $38,000.  

The 2nd bolt, identical to the first in color and year, cost $32,000.  He liked the first one so much he bought the same model, and found the same year.  I'm pretty sure the Bolt is based on the Sonic, which you can buy for about $16,000.  So in his case the EV is 2x the cost of the gas car.  My FIL always wanted an EV (he's 78).  He was around for the oil embargo in the 70's and actually bought a diesel truck in the early 80's because at the time you could always get diesel even during the embargo.  This was well before the powerstroke/durmax era when there was not hardly any diesel vehicles at all save for the ones they put in the oldsmobiles of the era.  The one in the truck, which we still own, is a 6.2L detroit diesel not the 5.7L converted gas engine.  

Off topic I know but he's always been on the bleeding edge of alternate fuels.  

I'm real curious to see what the range of the cybertruck, EV-150, and electric silverado will be loaded and unloaded.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 14, 2021, 07:39:14 PM
But back on topic...

The bolt dropped in price $6,000 in less than a year.  The Sonic I'm betting will never get any cheaper.  All the money in electrics are in the batteries and high efficiency motors, but there's very little maintenance.  I drive a 2016 Camry for my DD, I paid about $21K for it new.  The same size car, be it a Tesla or other, would probably cost low $30's.  Even with a moderate amount of driving it would take a long time to get back that extra $10K even over 5-7 years.  

I was commuting about 40-50 miles per day in the Camry at about 30 MPG.  
40 mpd x 30 days is about 1,200 miles in a month.  
1200 / 30 mpg = 40 gallons of fuel per month.  Average cost probably around $2.30 per gallon is $92 per month in fuel.  Throw in oil changes, air filters, misc odds and ends related to a combustion engine and I'd estimate I'm spending $110-120 per month to keep the vehicle on the road, not including major repairs.  

For the EV of the same size calculate 3.5 miles per kWh, or 28.5 kWh per 100 miles.  
1200 miles per month / 3.5 kWh is about 342 kWh.  
342 kWh * $0.12 is about $41.0 per month in energy costs.  No extra oil or filters.  Not sure what hidden costs there are, but solid state stuff > mechanical stuff.  

So about half the cost in fuel, plus no oil changes or filter changes.  I've heard that since EV's are a bit heavier than ICE cars they wear out tires faster, but the regenerative braking means rarely replacing brakes/pads.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 14, 2021, 08:14:00 PM
But still, at this point economically speaking it just won't pay for itself.  Do it for fun, do it for the environment.  Do it to be cool.  But just like my diesel truck it won't pay for itself.  But it sure is nice to drive.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 14, 2021, 09:21:38 PM
The one in the truck, which we still own, is a 6.2L detroit diesel not the 5.7L converted gas engine. 
Lucky for you! That converted gas engine was an absolute piece of junk! A friend's dad had one and he still hasn't forgiven GM. It was just a small block Chevy V8 with really high compression pistons and glow plugs.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 14, 2021, 10:55:50 PM
Electric Schmetric 

I am enjoying myself here and the sound is a huge part of the visceral enjoyment:

https://streamable.com/99wlpy



And I wouldn’t enjoy this:

https://streamable.com/hd35lz

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 15, 2021, 06:22:13 AM
The Bolt is not a Sonic, it is about the same dimensions as a Cruze (vide supra), which comparably equipped has an MSRP in the $23 K range.  The Sonic is quite a bit smaller, and less powerful (I owned one, the daughter has it now.)  The Bolt will handily out accelerate a Cruze with any engine, that low end torque is hard to beat.

The Bolt arguably is nicer inside, and the new "EUV" Bolt has the Super Cruise option available, which is a neat semi-autonomous.  Some reviewers like it more than Tesla's.

(https://i.imgur.com/9PfCRex.png)

2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV Review, Pricing, and Specs (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/bolt-euv)

Chevrolet has expanded its electric vehicle lineup for 2022 by introducing the SUV-inspired Bolt EUV (Electric Utility Vehicle), which offers a more spacious cabin than the Bolt hatchback (https://www.caranddriver.com/chevrolet/bolt-ev) as well as more rugged exterior styling. Under the hood is a 200-hp electric motor that's juiced by a 65.0-kWh battery pack said to deliver up to 250 miles of driving range per charge. When the Bolt EUV hits the market later this year, it will find stiff competition in the form of other EV SUVs including the Hyundai Kona Electric (https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/kona-electric), the Ford Mustang Mach-E (https://www.caranddriver.com/ford/mustang-mach-e), and the Tesla Model Y (https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-y). Chevrolet is banking on the EUV's futuristic styling, affordable starting price, and available semi-autonomous driving system to rise to the top of the burgeoning EV market segment.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 15, 2021, 06:27:10 AM
The SUV is also capable of DC fast charging, which Chevy says can provide up to 95 miles of range in just 30 minutes.

This is decent, if you need to take a trip somewhere.  Say you want to drive 500 miles a day, you get 220 comfortably off the first charge and stop for lunch and recharge 30 minutes and add maybe 90 miles, so you have 120 miles of range.  Stop again in 1.5 hours for half and hour and add another 90 miles range.  You likely need one more stop to finish the trip.

It's certainly going to take longer than driving in ICE.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 15, 2021, 08:16:36 AM
My bad. I had heard that they shared the same platform like GM often does for its cars. It was in fact made on the same assembly line as the Sonic, which was the source of my confusion. 

No doubt the bolt is fast. The interior is surprisingly spacious given its size. The seats are horrid. Almost laughingly bad. The dash and panels are not the normal look and materials, they look like some kind of weird styrofoam with a diamond pattern. Takes some getting used to. 

GM is much farther behind on charging speeds. I suspect they are being very conservative, other makes can charge much more quickly. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 15, 2021, 08:36:43 AM
The first-generation Chevrolet Bolt EV rides on a platform called BEV2 that stands for Battery Electric Vehicle 2. The name is sometimes spelled with two Roman Numerals – BEVII.
Notably, the platform is not the Gamma 2 (G2) platform that is commonly, yet incorrectly, believed to underpin the Bolt.

Engineers initially started out developing the Bolt EV on the Gamma 2 platform (https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-platforms/gamma/), but as development continued, engineers created a new platform now known as BEV2, which doesn’t share components with Gamma.
“There are no Bolt EV parts tied to the G2 architecture,” lead product engineer Josh Tavel was quoted as saying (https://gmauthority.com/blog/2016/09/2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-rides-on-unique-secret-platform/).
Interestingly, the Bolt is assigned the G2UC-E internal program code, which decrypts as follows:
Though the program code indicates that the Bolt uses the G2 platform, the discrepancy is explained by the fact that the Bolt EV program originated on the Gamma architecture, but then evolved to create its own platform, even as the vehicle program maintained the G2UC-E code.


EVs are purpose built to take advantage of battery rigidity to solidify the frame structure in a unique fashion.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 15, 2021, 09:45:39 AM
No doubt the bolt is fast. The interior is surprisingly spacious given its size. The seats are horrid. Almost laughingly bad. The dash and panels are not the normal look and materials, they look like some kind of weird styrofoam with a diamond pattern. Takes some getting used to.
Exterior styling and interior fit&finish is something that Chevy has been unable to do well for a long time now. I don't know how they sell so many damn cars when "ugly & looks cheap" seem to be the design goals.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 15, 2021, 09:51:35 AM
Styling is subjective, I find the Chevy's to look decent myself.  The F&F thing is somewhat subjective, I think they are fine generally speaking, better than Tesla by a mile.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 15, 2021, 10:02:14 AM
I just look at that Bolt and Chevy thinks its "futuristic styling" is going to appeal?

If you have to call something futuristic, it's probably just f'ing ugly.

I haven't been inside a Tesla, so can't speak to its interior fit & finish. Not a huge fan of the Model 3 that looks like a platypus. The Model S is a fine-looking car. Not a huge fan of the Model X or Y. And the CYBRTRK just looks stupid. You'd have to pay me to drive that hideous thing. I hope that gets changed to something that looks like it wasn't designed by a caffeine-fueled 7 year old boy or a coke'd up Elon Musk.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on April 15, 2021, 10:15:03 AM
I just look at that Bolt and Chevy thinks its "futuristic styling" is going to appeal?

If you have to call something futuristic, it's probably just f'ing ugly.

I haven't been inside a Tesla, so can't speak to its interior fit & finish. Not a huge fan of the Model 3 that looks like a platypus. The Model S is a fine-looking car. Not a huge fan of the Model X or Y. And the CYBRTRK just looks stupid. You'd have to pay me to drive that hideous thing. I hope that gets changed to something that looks like it wasn't designed by a caffeine-fueled 7 year old boy or a coke'd up Elon Musk.
Ha!   This!!! 😂😂
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 15, 2021, 10:25:42 AM
The SUV is also capable of DC fast charging, which Chevy says can provide up to 95 miles of range in just 30 minutes.

This is decent, if you need to take a trip somewhere.  Say you want to drive 500 miles a day, you get 220 comfortably off the first charge and stop for lunch and recharge 30 minutes and add maybe 90 miles, so you have 120 miles of range.  Stop again in 1.5 hours for half and hour and add another 90 miles range.  You likely need one more stop to finish the trip.

It's certainly going to take longer than driving in ICE.


If this is the new normal, it won't become normal.  This would drive me insane.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 15, 2021, 10:45:22 AM
If this is the new normal, it won't become normal.  This would drive me insane.
Agree, that definitely wouldn't work for me, and pretty much anyone else I know.  It also wouldn't work for most fleet or any long-haul driving.

Which is why I'm skeptical of speculation that a huge percentage of American cars will be all electric by 2030 or 2035.  The battery/recharge technology just won't be there.

But eventually it will be.  And that's when EV will become ubiquitous.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 15, 2021, 11:02:02 AM
Bear in mind that this is balanced against the idea that you never "fill up" your vehicle during normal driving. Never have to stop for gas on your morning commute. 

How many times a year do you drive >250 miles in one go? Twice a year?

How bad would it be to simply rent a gas car for a week for your road trip / vacation if you can't bear the idea of stopping more often to recharge?

I mentioned earlier that in car choice there's a question of the daily needs and the exception. For most people it's dumb to buy a big F-150 if you're only going to haul stuff three times a year; it's better to buy a smaller and more fuel-efficient car for your daily driving and rent a truck those three times a year that you need it. We talked in this thread about people with gas-guzzlers and long commutes who bought an econo-box for their daily commute for the gas savings but kept their preferred car for around-town driving and enjoyment. 

Often we think we need a car that covers EVERY one of our needs, no matter how remote. But that thinking can limit you and put you in a vehicle that's sub-optimal 98% of the time in order to make the other 2% work out. 

If an EV works 98% of the time, maybe you should think of alternate solutions for the other 2%, not buy a gas car based on that 2%.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 15, 2021, 11:17:49 AM
Bear in mind that this is balanced against the idea that you never "fill up" your vehicle during normal driving. Never have to stop for gas on your morning commute.

How many times a year do you drive >250 miles in one go? Twice a year?

How bad would it be to simply rent a gas car for a week for your road trip / vacation if you can't bear the idea of stopping more often to recharge?


I mentioned earlier that in car choice there's a question of the daily needs and the exception. For most people it's dumb to buy a big F-150 if you're only going to haul stuff three times a year; it's better to buy a smaller and more fuel-efficient car for your daily driving and rent a truck those three times a year that you need it. We talked in this thread about people with gas-guzzlers and long commutes who bought an econo-box for their daily commute for the gas savings but kept their preferred car for around-town driving and enjoyment.

Often we think we need a car that covers EVERY one of our needs, no matter how remote. But that thinking can limit you and put you in a vehicle that's sub-optimal 98% of the time in order to make the other 2% work out.

If an EV works 98% of the time, maybe you should think of alternate solutions for the other 2%, not buy a gas car based on that 2%.


Pretty common to do it a couple times per month down here.  Driving from my house to see various branches of family in other parts of Texas >250 miles.  Driving ANYwhere from Austin is at least 200 miles.  Except San Antonio.  But they don't count.

And car rentals aren't exactly cheap.  You'd have to add that into you your TCO analysis. For me it could be an additional $200/month.  That's half a car payment for a decent, new car.

I agree with your overall point, I just think you're underestimating the number of people for which the "98% EV" actually works out that way.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 15, 2021, 11:26:43 AM
I agree with your overall point, I just think you're underestimating the number of people for which the "98% EV" actually works out that way.
No I'm not...

Because I didn't estimate that number of people at all :57:

I'm saying that there are people out there who think an EV won't work for them based on the 1 time per year that it won't work for them, and for many of them it might be superior the entire rest of the year. I don't know how many of those people exist... But I'm sure there are some.

Then there's the other group--multi-vehicle families where it might make perfect sense to have one EV and one gas vehicle. I bought my car as the family hauler, and as such it has the capacity to also be the road trip car even if we have all 5 of us and the dog. If my wife had wanted an EV when she bought the Lexus, it would have worked out just fine because that would cover every one of her daily uses of the car and on the rare occasion it didn't, that's what the second car is for. 

I think EVs, as the market starts to mature, will prove to be useful for a lot of people who today may not think they're useful. In some cases that might require out-of-the-box thinking about how to handle long trips, but for many people those trips are pretty rare anyway. I'm saying some people should think about handling the exceptions as, well, exceptions.

It's like a truck. About 3 times a year I really miss my old pickup truck. That doesn't mean it makes sense for a pickup truck to be my daily driver for those 3 times a year. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 15, 2021, 11:48:21 AM
Yeah, I think the main penetration will be two car HHs where one is an EV for going to and from work etc.  That would be significant.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 15, 2021, 11:57:40 AM
No I'm not...

Because I didn't estimate that number of people at all :57:

I'm saying that there are people out there who think an EV won't work for them based on the 1 time per year that it won't work for them, and for many of them it might be superior the entire rest of the year. I don't know how many of those people exist... But I'm sure there are some.

Then there's the other group--multi-vehicle families where it might make perfect sense to have one EV and one gas vehicle. I bought my car as the family hauler, and as such it has the capacity to also be the road trip car even if we have all 5 of us and the dog. If my wife had wanted an EV when she bought the Lexus, it would have worked out just fine because that would cover every one of her daily uses of the car and on the rare occasion it didn't, that's what the second car is for.

I think EVs, as the market starts to mature, will prove to be useful for a lot of people who today may not think they're useful. In some cases that might require out-of-the-box thinking about how to handle long trips, but for many people those trips are pretty rare anyway. I'm saying some people should think about handling the exceptions as, well, exceptions.

It's like a truck. About 3 times a year I really miss my old pickup truck. That doesn't mean it makes sense for a pickup truck to be my daily driver for those 3 times a year.
Well okay, if you're just making vague general hand-waving arguments in true devil's advocate/engineering fashion... ;)

We're a two-car family and I think an EV would definitely make sense for one of those vehicles.
Jeep just came out with a hyrbid, maybe they'll follow up with a full EV sometime soon.  Could be time for my wife to upgrade. :)

(https://i.imgur.com/tMCFWfI.jpg)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 15, 2021, 12:14:17 PM
Speaking of unexpectedly interesting ...

(https://i.imgur.com/snj0ta5.jpg)

2024 GMC Hummer EV SUV First Look: Big Power, Big Luxury—Just Plain Big (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2024-gmc-hummer-ev-suv-first-look-review/)

The SUV, using GM's Ultium electric vehicle platform and battery system, can run an estimated 300 miles while the pickup can go 350 miles. The figures refer to the top trims with three electric motors (two power the rear axle, the third sends it up front). The base Hummer EV2, with only two motors and the removal of four more modules in the battery packhas a range of 250 miles.

There is also a difference in output. The pickup claims more than 1,000 horsepower and hurtles itself from 0-60 mph in 3.0 seconds. The SUV's smaller battery pack operates at slightly lower voltage, which drops output to 830 hp and thus the sprint to 60 mph lengthens to 3.5 seconds. The 625-hp Hummer EV2X and EV2 models stretch the zero-to-60-mph time to 4.0 seconds.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 15, 2021, 12:22:35 PM
^^^^^

The base model of the Hummer EV2 is $80,000.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 15, 2021, 12:24:20 PM
It might become the "Escalade" of the future, more status symbol than actual useful conveyance.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 15, 2021, 12:35:12 PM
Most of that ~200-300 miles per charge is based solely on the size of the battery. Currently batteries are still quite expensive for all EVs even though the cost has dropped 90% per kWH from 2010. As the cost continues to drop the size of the batteries will continue to increase and thus the range. Once you start seeing EV’s with ranges of 400-500 miles I think that’s going to be an inflection point. That will cover 99.9% of everybody’s driving and stopping for an hour every 5-7 hours to charge the battery while the driver eats etc won’t be that big a deal. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 15, 2021, 12:55:22 PM
oh it's the future for sure.   The only question is how far into the future

in 30 years I probably won't care too much
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 15, 2021, 12:58:37 PM
oh it's the future for sure.  The only question is how far into the future

in 30 years I probably won't care too much
Same here.

It's the "by 2035" types of estimates that I'm skeptical of.  Sometime beyond that?  Sure. 

Heck, sometime beyond 2035, Earth's humans will probably colonize other solar systems.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 15, 2021, 01:19:38 PM
The question is whether the DQ will be higher, the same, or lower for the buyers of the Hummer EV vs the old-school Hummers?

(DQ=douchebag quotient)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Riffraft on April 15, 2021, 01:55:28 PM
Before around 1960, domestic autos were one size, basically, full size, though you could get two doors, four doors, and wagons, and they started with 2-3 trim levels.  Americans like choice.  VW introduced the Beetle and it had some success, so GM countered with their rear engine car, which didn't do that well (Nader did a hatch it job on it, largely out of ignorance).

Then, as there was consumer demand for smaller cars, GM et al. started providing a Chevelle and a Chevy II, so you had three sizes to fit your needs.  I think personally they went overboard, and of course ended up killed off Olds and Pontiac.  I think they should have killed off Buick and kept Pontiac, but whatever.

Nobody but GM tried to build an EV in the '90s, and the GM-1 demonstrated that neither the demand nor the technology was available.  Tesla worked on both items of course and has done an amazing job in my view.  The standard automakers appear to be catching up some, but they still sell at a loss whatever they sell.

We will hit a point in X years where half the new car sales in the US are EVs (not trucks).  My guess is 2030-2035.  It hinges a lot on battery tech and cost.


come on man, we know they were unsafe at any speed
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Riffraft on April 15, 2021, 01:57:46 PM
Why should automakers supply different colors of cars, anyway? That's just more inventory and more paint suppliers to manage... If you're going all-out, let's just standardize cars on one color. Probably bright hazard orange would be good, so they all stand out--it's a safety feature!

Nah, the number and selection of teams you play is very much down to personal preference, how much money you want to spend, and what it's worth to you.

You can't disagree that the best version of the game is a full set of all the teams, can you? After all, that gives every consumer what they want, and more.

But you're not willing to supply that at a price people would willingly pay because the value for those extra teams, while it's positive for nearly every person looking to purchase, isn't worth the expense you'd need to charge to make selling the game worth it.

THAT is why there are different tiers, models, options packages, etc for cars. Different people have different preferences, and if you make them all buy the fully-loaded version, most of them will say "eh, I can't afford that and it's got a whole bunch of stuff I don't care about."

I think there is an old quote by Henry Ford. You can have any color you want as long as it's black
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 15, 2021, 02:27:36 PM
Funny you say 30 years.......don't forget in Back to the Future, they got flying cars from 1985 to 2015.  And hoverboards.  And deja vu.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 15, 2021, 02:29:00 PM
To my credit, every college football boardgame I found out there released sets of teams, because only an idiot would make ANY team available........:57:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 15, 2021, 02:41:25 PM
Funny you say 30 years.......don't forget in Back to the Future, they got flying cars from 1985 to 2015.  And hoverboards.  And deja vu.
back in the 70's, when I was in jr high....... teachers proclaimed that the world's oil would be used up and we'd have to find alternate engines for our automobiles by the year 2000
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 15, 2021, 04:28:09 PM
back in the 70's, when I was in jr high....... teachers proclaimed that the world's oil would be used up and we'd have to find alternate engines for our automobiles by the year 2000

Yup, I heard the same thing from O&G scientist specialist lecturers at Northwestern University in 1989.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 15, 2021, 04:36:23 PM
listening to "experts" and believing the science

this is why I have some hope that a breakthrough can happen with existing or future energy sources and save the planet from the world's politicians
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 15, 2021, 08:28:25 PM
Wrong predictions doesn't mean anyone did anything incorrect.  All they had was their current data to go by.  You can make 100 prudent predictions based on here and now and be wrong every time.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 15, 2021, 09:46:35 PM
correct, but it's also correct that we really aren't able to predict the future

and stating predictions as fact is dishonest and misleading
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 16, 2021, 10:21:26 AM
Who states predictions as fact (as opposed to those who don't)?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 16, 2021, 10:32:09 AM
the media, as opposed to the scientists
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 16, 2021, 10:56:42 AM
I don't think blaming the media is productive.  The media is a matador parrying with a mindless bull (the masses).  A matador goading the bull is what it does.  That's his job. 

The bull charging at it is a given. 

What if the masses weren't a mindless bull?  Anytime the media is to blame, I just want to get a big, fat mirror out.

This article outrages me.  Was that its intent?
This article is BS.  Consider the source.
This news channel is radically biased.  Then ignore it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 16, 2021, 11:18:09 AM
the media "could" be a very positive thing for the masses and even other educated groups

why give them a pass?  why just ignore them?  

if we'd be better ignoring them, why not shut them down?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 16, 2021, 11:36:54 AM
As I've said before, as long as they're constructed as money-making enterprises, that will be their goal.  Once upon a time, you'd get more eyeballs by being the most accurate.
That time has passed.
Now that it has passed, I agree, something drastic must be done.

I simply suggest that if a private company wants to produce the news, they'll do it not-for-profit.  A block of time on their channel that is ad-free and ratings won't even be polled.  No ads on their news website, either.  

Ratings will be irrelevant, so yes, it may not only be a financial loss for that company, but could also be in vain. 
But in my world, that's what it would take for a company to be allowed to have the news. 

It should be an honor earned. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 16, 2021, 11:51:31 AM
Back in the '70's, teachers scared the shit out of me, talking about the looming ice age.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 16, 2021, 11:59:03 AM
So 50 years is too slow for an ice age?  lol
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 16, 2021, 12:05:46 PM
Back in the '70's, teachers scared the shit out of me, talking about the looming ice age.
derned liberal educators ;)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 16, 2021, 12:56:06 PM
The 1970s "coming ice age" is a good example of how our media mess things up.  It was a handful of climatologists at the time and they had a concern, the Little Ice Age was a real thing, possibly related to solar activity.  It was very speculative, but TIME picked it up and ran an hysterical cover story on it as if it was real.

Even a basic summary of some climate article is tough to read.  And yet folks have strongly held opinions on the topic.  Based on their politics, not science, which is pretty much beyond most of us, including me, I've tried.

Nearly every article in MSM about science has some errors, often massive ones.  Things like Science News are a lot better, and very readable.

I saw a TESLA SUV hooked up to our new outlets.  Usually the two spaces are empty, so far.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 18, 2021, 09:27:33 AM
No matter where you are on climate change, there's no debate that it is changing.  There's also no debate that it's always changing.  The thing many don't seem to want to understand is the time factor.  Ebbs and flows of a degree or three are perfectly natural....over thousands+ years.  A change of a degree or three in 150 years is radical and just happened to occur between the industrial revolution to now. 

And anyone suggesting that's a coincidence isn't being honest.



*At least, that's my understanding, but I'm sure someone who happens to miss a certain leader will correct me with alternative facts.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 18, 2021, 11:41:17 AM
The Little Ice Age is still not well understood.  Some claim it only impacted the northern hemisphere.  But temperatures in parts of the world fell drastically and quickly, coincident with a dearth of sunspots.  Did that cause it?  or some volcanic eruption?  It's still debated.  The drop in T was dramatic apparently, and records of the period note starvation because of it.  So, it is POSSIBLE the current climate change is natural.  I don't think it's likely.


(https://i.imgur.com/bxqvr8L.png)

Alpine glaciers advanced far below their previous (and present) limits, obliterating farms, churches, and villages in Switzerland, France, and elsewhere. Frequent cold winters and cool, wet summers led to crop (https://www.britannica.com/topic/crop-agriculture) failures and famines (https://www.britannica.com/science/famine) over much of northern and central Europe. In addition, the North Atlantic cod (https://www.britannica.com/animal/cod-fish-Gadus-species) fisheries declined as ocean temperatures fell in the 17th century.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 18, 2021, 12:11:07 PM
Some serious cow farting going on in England during this period.

(https://i.imgur.com/z6STeF7.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 18, 2021, 01:36:15 PM
Little Ice Age - Changes in large-scale atmospheric patterns | Britannica (https://www.britannica.com/science/Little-Ice-Age/Changes-in-large-scale-atmospheric-patterns)

A nice short summary of it, our lack of a consistent explanation is interesting.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 18, 2021, 04:49:51 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/274b3v9.jpg)

The Mustang EV we passed in DC a week or so back.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 18, 2021, 04:50:35 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/R4NyEKl.png)

I took this with my cell phone.  I'm amazed how good phone cameras are today.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 19, 2021, 09:44:53 AM
You guys ever look up the tallest statues of the world?  

The US is not big on massive statues.  I wonder if that's due to our conservative christianhood not wanting a bunch of potential idols all over the place.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 19, 2021, 10:20:28 AM
I don't know why it has to be "30 years in the future" or even 15.  Think about the smart phone era.  We're not even 15 years into it (if you draw the line at 2007's first iPhone).  Things can change fast, especially if market forces drive them.  Smart phones didn't become ubiquitous because they're cheaper to buy or cheaper to own (they cost much more to buy and much more to operate because you have to have data).  They were just better, and people who didn't need one before suddenly and almost universally need one after.  

EV's will see mass adoption because they will be better.  They will be cheaper to operate, more powerful, and just better.  Right now, as stated in an earlier post, EV's are about an $8K premium over a comparable gas car.  Not sure the delta on trucks, but with battery prices dropping look for that to close as well.  Eventually there will come a day when they are on-par, and then maybe it will be even cheaper to buy the EV.  Once EV is the cheaper choice I think most folks will adjust their habits and go EV, with or without gov't intervention.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on April 19, 2021, 10:26:34 AM
In a lot of areas of this country, there is already an issue supplying electricity to the grid. California already experiences rolling blackouts due to grid capacity. When you start plugging EV's into it in greater numbers, it could cause massive problems. There is also the issue of range. I am traveling distances well over 300 miles a few times in the next couple of months. As my time is precious, I don't really want to spend extra hours on the trip waiting for a battery to recharge. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: TyphonInc on April 19, 2021, 10:35:21 AM
We are currently a 2 car family, with a 10 year old. Both of our ICE's are new enough they should still be operational when she is starting to drive. So unless something unforeseen happens our next car is in 6 years. And I will take a long hard look at an EV then. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 19, 2021, 12:33:26 PM
You guys ever look up the tallest statues of the world? 

The US is not big on massive statues. I wonder if that's due to our conservative christianhood not wanting a bunch of potential idols all over the place. 
Certainly could be part of it.

Also, Americans have a stronger sense of individualism and self, than many other cultures, and so creating massive monuments to others, isn't really in our nature.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 19, 2021, 12:42:52 PM
I don't know why it has to be "30 years in the future" or even 15.  Think about the smart phone era.  We're not even 15 years into it (if you draw the line at 2007's first iPhone).  Things can change fast, especially if market forces drive them.  Smart phones didn't become ubiquitous because they're cheaper to buy or cheaper to own (they cost much more to buy and much more to operate because you have to have data).  They were just better, and people who didn't need one before suddenly and almost universally need one after. 

EV's will see mass adoption because they will be better.  They will be cheaper to operate, more powerful, and just better.  Right now, as stated in an earlier post, EV's are about an $8K premium over a comparable gas car.  Not sure the delta on trucks, but with battery prices dropping look for that to close as well.  Eventually there will come a day when they are on-par, and then maybe it will be even cheaper to buy the EV.  Once EV is the cheaper choice I think most folks will adjust their habits and go EV, with or without gov't intervention. 
There are some differences though.



I think EVs are going to increase like crazy over the next 15 or 30 years, but I think you're underestimating the switching costs at a societal level. it's not going to suddenly be 90% of new car sales in 15 years IMHO. If we get to 30-50% in 15 years I think that'll be a huge change. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 19, 2021, 12:48:48 PM
There are some differences though.

  • A smartphone is called such because it has significantly more capability than other phones. EVs are simply a different powertrain. That's it. It might be better, but the powertrain itself isn't a game-changer.
  • There are technical advantages to a BEV, but there is significantly more legacy infrastructure for ICEV. With smartphones or other tech products we often talk about a "killer app" driving adoption--something awesome that you can do with the new tech that is impossible or difficult with the old. For a BEV, that's home-based charging. Nobody can refuel at home, but they can recharge. So instead of spending 10 minutes a week at a gas station, your car is ready to go every morning and you have to do nothing other than plug it in at night. But that requires infrastructure. It's fine for people with garages who own their homes, but does a renter with only a carport or a homeowner in an older area with only on-street parking get to take advantage? If not, what's the *real* benefit to EV?
  • Some of us on here are the types who want to own a car for a decade. But a lot of Americans aren't. Many lease their cars, turn them in for something new every three years, and maintenance is covered during that period. For those people, the payback even if the difference is an $8K premium won't ever be made up. Many in this country lease cars because they can't afford to finance that same car--minimum lease price for a Lexus RX350 right now is less than half monthly than what I pay to finance a certified pre-owned RX350. I'm guessing there are TONS of people driving a Lexus (or BMW, or Merc, or Acura, or Audi) on the roads right now who can't afford to buy their car. How many of those who lease because they can't afford to buy also don't have the disposable income to drop $1K on installation of a home level 2 charger--if they even own?
  • The amount of disruption necessary to mine enough lithium and other metals in order to produce enough batteries for all those cars is a big question. You're talking projects with huge capital expenditures, which will be undertaken by companies who won't do it if the costs are coming down too quickly. There's a supply/demand balance that will occur that IMHO will keep prices from reaching parity as soon as some folks might think.


I think EVs are going to increase like crazy over the next 15 or 30 years, but I think you're underestimating the switching costs at a societal level. it's not going to suddenly be 90% of new car sales in 15 years IMHO. If we get to 30-50% in 15 years I think that'll be a huge change.

Agree with all of this.  That's about the kind of % penetration, and timeframe, I'm expecting.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 19, 2021, 01:17:58 PM
 but I think you're underestimating the switching costs at a societal level. it's not going to suddenly be 90% of new car sales in 15 years IMHO. If we get to 30-50% in 15 years I think that'll be a huge change.
It will if the decision-makers want it to.  It's all up to them.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 19, 2021, 02:28:57 PM
It will if the decision-makers want it to.  It's all up to them.
Decision-makers are still subject to the laws of economics.

Those who make decisions contrary, don't often get to remain decision-makers all that long.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 19, 2021, 02:46:45 PM
I'd be ready to go EV today if it was cheaper
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 19, 2021, 02:49:02 PM
Decision-makers are still subject to the laws of economics.

Those who make decisions contrary, don't often get to remain decision-makers all that long.
The decison-makers are the decision-makers because the influence the economics.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 19, 2021, 02:55:56 PM
The decison-makers are the decision-makers because the influence the economics.
Eh. I usually find the successful "decision-makers" to be the ones who figure out where the economics are going, craft legislation that goes the same way, and then take credit for something that would have happened without their input like it was all their doing. 

Of course, my opinion of the decision-makers might even be lower than your [or my] opinion of the masses.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 19, 2021, 03:59:02 PM
I'm just wary of those who come out on top whether times are good or times are bad.  Wary of their ethical practices.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 26, 2021, 10:38:05 AM
480-HP 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E GT Nearly $24K More Than V-8 GT (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36213628/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-gt-priced/?utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2n01FnV5z-R88vL1__aSjj4O-sKhsbeZQcKmT1JYuVME5nZB4Nd_d8yNI)

The high-performance version of Ford's electric crossover arrives this fall starting at $61,000, and it'll do 60 mph in a claimed 3.8 seconds.

Seems like a fringe play to me at that price, it's Corvette territory.

My daughter's Sonic sprang an oil leak that would be a $1500 repair she says, not sure why, so she's looking, and likes the Hyundai Tuscon 2022 model, not a hybrid or electric.  She doesn't drive much now, and probably could keep the Sonic for a year or more and just add oil.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 26, 2021, 11:32:10 AM
I thought the Mustang had kind of fallen back to Camaro-level and the Vette was above and beyond.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 26, 2021, 11:34:59 AM
I thought the Mustang had kind of fallen back to Camaro-level and the Vette was above and beyond. 
Well, there are some high end Mustangs currently that are quite potent, I would not compare them with the 'Vette.  The fastest car around the 'Ring is a Camaro.

Both pony cars have high end versions that are very fast.

But you can in theory buy a new "Vette for $65 K or so MSRP.  An electric 'Vette is in our future somewhere.

This EV Mustang is not really a Mustang as it's more of an SUV-sedan crossover.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 26, 2021, 11:52:50 AM
It's okay, you can say it:  an abomination!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 26, 2021, 12:29:45 PM
glorified minivan
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 26, 2021, 01:11:54 PM
Idk if it's still true, but you could have taken a mini-van engine and popped it into a small car back in the 90s, and you've got yourself a hot rod.  My mom's Nissan Quest booked it when I was behind the wheel!  It had real torque, it would leap off the line!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 26, 2021, 01:18:47 PM
I owned two minivans, their engines were out of passenger cars, nothing remotely special about them.

Some of the "leap off the line" feature is simply a result of gearing, not torque.

EVs do "leap off the line" impressively though.  I think that is one thing owners like about them.  I could almost see buying a Bolt for $32 K, but not this Mustang for $65 K.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 26, 2021, 01:47:16 PM
I'm a Chevy guy, so I might not ever own a Mustang, but if I do it will have 2 doors and look like a Stang
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 26, 2021, 01:51:38 PM
I owned two minivans, their engines were out of passenger cars, nothing remotely special about them.

Some of the "leap off the line" feature is simply a result of gearing, not torque.

EVs do "leap off the line" impressively though.  I think that is one thing owners like about them.  I could almost see buying a Bolt for $32 K, but not this Mustang for $65 K.
What time frame were your minivans, CD? I think if you're talking about 20 years ago, minivans back then had pretty paltry pickup.

~2012 I bought a Honda Odyssey, and that had plenty of power.

I think that's more of what OAM is referring to--modern engines in even a minivan are way more powerful than typical passenger car engines of 20-30 years ago.

Heck, I had a "sporty" car in the late 90s--89 Ford Probe GT. 2.0L I-4 Turbo. I think it was 145 hp and 170 ft-lb of torque.  Later in the 90s they moved to a 2.5L NA V6, and that made a whopping 164 hp. 

A 2021 Honda Odyssey makes 280 hp out of 3.5L and would probably get better gas mileage to boot. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 26, 2021, 01:57:10 PM
All engines today are relatively powerful as compared with 1990 or so.  But there is nothing special about minivan engines, they are all out of passenger cars.

I had a 1985 Dodge with the 4 cylinder engine and a 5-spd transmission.  100 hp I think, it was SLOW.  I then had a 1998 Olds minivan with the 3.8 L that was comparatively fast.  But the 3.8 was a passenger car engine and transmission.  Maybe it had 185 hp.

And yes, current minivans are quite spunky.  It's an efficient design in my view, just not popular relative to SUVs.

My GTI is kind of a shrunken minivan in one sense, 228 hp.  It goes when I need it to go, if I'm in the right gear anyway.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 26, 2021, 01:58:47 PM
I'm a Chevy guy, so I might not ever own a Mustang, but if I do it will have 2 doors and look like a Stang
The wife likes them, we had a couple convertibles as rental cars, the last with the 2.3 L "ecoboost" and ten speed transmission, it drove poorly in my view.

I can't see out of a Camaro.

I may get a 'Vette someday just because.  It would be stupid really, we hardly drive much at all now.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 26, 2021, 02:09:02 PM
All engines today are relatively powerful as compared with 1990 or so.  But there is nothing special about minivan engines, they are all out of passenger cars.
Oh, of course.

But I think that's the point. The soccer mom vehicle of today has an engine that the Fast & Furious crowd of 20 years ago would kill for. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 26, 2021, 02:09:23 PM
can't see out of the Vette either, but I still want to own one, just because

might not own it for long
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 26, 2021, 02:11:18 PM
2023 Cadillac Lyriq: What We Know So Far (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/cadillac/lyriq)

(https://i.imgur.com/l1I3f0C.jpg)

Starts at $60 K, 300 mile est, range.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 26, 2021, 02:12:28 PM
Idk if it's still true, but you could have taken a mini-van engine and popped it into a small car back in the 90s, and you've got yourself a hot rod.  My mom's Nissan Quest booked it when I was behind the wheel!  It had real torque, it would leap off the line!
He could have meant taking a 2020 minivan engine and putting it in a 1990 Nissan I suppose.  Doesn't make much sense to me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 26, 2021, 02:19:07 PM
What time frame were your minivans, CD? I think if you're talking about 20 years ago, minivans back then had pretty paltry pickup.

~2012 I bought a Honda Odyssey, and that had plenty of power.

I think that's more of what OAM is referring to--modern engines in even a minivan are way more powerful than typical passenger car engines of 20-30 years ago.

Heck, I had a "sporty" car in the late 90s--89 Ford Probe GT. 2.0L I-4 Turbo. I think it was 145 hp and 170 ft-lb of torque.  Later in the 90s they moved to a 2.5L NA V6, and that made a whopping 164 hp.

A 2021 Honda Odyssey makes 280 hp out of 3.5L and would probably get better gas mileage to boot.

Yeah I had a 1986 Chrysler Laser Turbo XT with almost identical specs.  It was a 2.2L I4 Turbo, 146 hp and 170 ft-lb torque. At the time it was a reasonably quick "sporty" car.

Now?  Heck, my wife's Jeep is probably faster...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MarqHusker on April 26, 2021, 02:21:13 PM
How the hell did you fit into that Probe.  My friend has one a d I recall it sucked for those of us north of 6foot.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 26, 2021, 02:26:43 PM
I'm still amazed how fast regular sedans are today, base model Honda Accords for example.

2021 Honda Accord vs. Competitor's 0-60 and Quarter Mile

[th]Car Name[/th]
[th]0-60 MPH[/th]
[th]Standing 1/4-mile[/th]
[th]Braking (70 - 0 MPH)[/th]
[th]Braking (60 - 0 MPH)[/th]
[th]2021 Honda Accord[/th]
7.2 sec15.3 - 15.5 sec171 ft.116 ft.
[th]2021 Nissan Altima[/th]
5.8 - 8 sec16 sec-120 ft.
[th]2021 Hyundai Sonata[/th]
7.9 sec14.1 sec--
[th]2021 Chevrolet Malibu[/th]
7.5 - 8.1 sec16 sec167 ft.113 ft.
[th]2021 Subaru Legacy[/th]
8.2 - 8.8 sec16.5 sec-127 ft.
[th]2021 Hyundai Elantra[/th]
7.3 - 7.8 sec14.4 - 16.2 sec168 - 175 ft.110 - 116 ft.
[th]2021 Mazda 3[/th]
8.1 sec16 sec-121 ft.
[th]2021 Toyota Camry[/th]
5.1 - 5.8 sec---



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 26, 2021, 02:35:01 PM
How the hell did you fit into that Probe.  My friend has one a d I recall it sucked for those of us north of 6foot.
Seat all the way back, reclined enough so my head wasn't in the roof. Luckily I had arms long enough to still reach the steering wheel and stick shift.

My seat was about 1" from the back seat, so it was effectively a 3-person vehicle as nobody could sit behind me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 26, 2021, 02:46:29 PM
He could have meant taking a 2020 minivan engine and putting it in a 1990 Nissan I suppose.  Doesn't make much sense to me.
A minivan engine back then compared to a shitty car engine back then.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 26, 2021, 02:49:50 PM
(https://external.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQFXa3-V-aANWktP&w=500&h=261&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbarnfinds.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F04%2F1965-Mustang-Fastback-22.jpg&cfs=1&ext=jpg&ccb=3-5&_nc_hash=AQHgXkneHorz-q0I)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 26, 2021, 05:12:07 PM
Is that an electric classic ponycar?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MarqHusker on April 26, 2021, 08:30:28 PM
When my Moms green Dodge Dart took a crap in the early 80s, I remember we got a Pontiac Catalina.   That thing had no torque.

I miss that Dart, little triangle vent windows, circle side view mirrors, high beam button on the left floor
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 26, 2021, 11:38:26 PM
We never had any cool cars.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on April 27, 2021, 12:29:33 AM
Quote from: Hawkinole on April 13, 2021, 02:11:14 AM (https://www.cfb51.com/big-ten/electric-vehicles-your-interest-level/msg329479/#msg329479)
Quote
Fifteen-years out internal combustion engines will not likely be available. It will be hydrogen or EV. I hope you live a long life. In 20-years if you like newer cars, you will live in antiquity and find it increasingly difficult to find fuel.  I suspect EV is a temporary bridge vehicle to hydrogen which will be more dominant 30-years out.

I dare one of you to locate my post 30-years hence in 2051. I will probably never know.
Quote from: FearlessF (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?topic=21547.msg329508#msg329508) 4/13/2021
not 15 years, maybe 30 or 40

technology is often hyped and doesn't follow through as quickly as predicted

I don't mind driving vehicles that are 5-10 years old.

If someone purchases a gasser in 2040, it could certainly be viable in 2050 or 2060

in 2052 I'll be 90

probably shouldn't be driving

------------------
Actually, hydrogen fueled cars are on the market right now.  All the Hydrogen Vehicles Available for Purchase | Digital Trends (https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hydrogen-cars-for-sale/#:~:text=All the hydrogen vehicles available for purchase 1,good thing. 3 Honda Clarity Fuel Cell.)
Hydrogen is currently lacking in fueling infrastructure. Starting within 10-years you will see see more hydrogen infrastructure. A hydrogen car takes just 5-minutes to fuel. It is 0-emissions, and does not rely on the power grid like an EV, which grid does produce emissions.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 27, 2021, 07:35:02 AM
Hydrogen generally does rely on the power grid, or often it can.  You need electricity to generate hydrogen.  I see a fuel cell as a "fancy battery", it stores energy, it does not generate energy.

While it has notable advantages over batteries, it has disadvantages as well.  In 1905, there was competition between ICE cars, steam powered cars, and electric cars.  I doubt anyone knew then which would dominate (and eliminate all others).  Early engines were pretty bad, complicated, prone to failure, and we had little gasoline at the time.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 27, 2021, 11:52:39 AM
Let's just make cars that run on carbon.  Friggin' simple.  :57:
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 27, 2021, 12:22:32 PM
That is sorta like the fable that some car ran on water.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 27, 2021, 12:25:38 PM
There have been cars that have run on water-- heated up to become steam...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 27, 2021, 03:24:31 PM
WSJ article:

Before it rolls off the assembly line, an electric Tesla Model 3 has generated 65% more emissions than a gas-powered Toyota RAV4 due to the environmental costs of building it. What happens next to flip the balance?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 27, 2021, 03:36:15 PM
WSJ article:

Before it rolls off the assembly line, an electric Tesla Model 3 has generated 65% more emissions than a gas-powered Toyota RAV4 due to the environmental costs of building it. What happens next to flip the balance?
plus the emissions of the lifetime of the car.........
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 27, 2021, 03:42:38 PM
plus the emissions of the lifetime of the car.........
And the emissions of all the electricity generated to power the EV, assuming it isn't 100% solar or other clean energy...

WSJ article:

Before it rolls off the assembly line, an electric Tesla Model 3 has generated 65% more emissions than a gas-powered Toyota RAV4 due to the environmental costs of building it. What happens next to flip the balance?
Was that the WSJ op-ed page or somewhere else in the paper?

Based on just that line, I wonder if it was an ideologically-motivated author. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 27, 2021, 04:31:35 PM
It may have been, I just got the synopsis line.  I used to go up to the brokerage to read the WSJ most days but they have been closed.

I saw figures somewhere that even if the electricity if from coal, an EV generates less CO2 per mile.  Transmission is efficient.  The advantage is not huge in that case.

We still get 20% from nuclear here, France is about 75%.  Vogtle3 is supposed to go on line later this year.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 27, 2021, 05:06:30 PM
  Vogtle3 is supposed to go on line later this year.
That plant has been quite the clusterpuck.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 27, 2021, 05:13:05 PM
Nuke plants generally come in way over budget and way past delivery dates, but at least this one appears to be getting finished.  A couple years back, that was in question, and we'd have ended with half the money spent and no production.

There is a solution to this, of course.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 27, 2021, 05:24:51 PM
I think that's more of what OAM is referring to--modern engines in even a minivan are way more powerful than typical passenger car engines of 20-30 years ago.

Heck, I had a "sporty" car in the late 90s--89 Ford Probe GT. 2.0L I-4 Turbo. I think it was 145 hp and 170 ft-lb of torque.  Later in the 90s they moved to a 2.5L NA V6, and that made a whopping 164 hp.

A 2021 Honda Odyssey makes 280 hp out of 3.5L and would probably get better gas mileage to boot.
Back when I was a teen (late 80's, early 90's) I was big into Corvettes. At that time I could quote all kinds of Vette stats and specs and pretty much tell you the year of almost any Vette up until they stopped making annual appearance changes just at a glance.

One thing I noticed even back then was that it took them more than 20 years to get back to where they had been in terms of power after the emissions controls just completely neutered the engines starting in the 70's.

In 1967 a base Vette had 300hp, 360 ft lbs and you could get 435hp/460. That remained the top until 1970 when a larger (454cid) V8 had slightly more power, then power started dropping.

In 1972 the most powerful Vette was a Big Block 454cid with 270hp/390 ft lbs. That is less hp and only marginally more torque than a base small block 327cid from five years prior.

Even the early 1990's ZR1's maxed out at 405/385. IIRC, that was the first 400+hp Vette in 20+ years and it was still 30 less hp and 75 ft lbs less torque than had been available in 1967, nearly 30 years prior.

Obviously by the 1990's the car had improved dramatically in other ways but just looking at raw hp and torque it took a REALLY long time to recover after the emissions controls were installed.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 27, 2021, 05:44:24 PM
They did change horsepower rating methods from GROSS to SAE NET.  That change lowered the numbers aside from the real changes.

The 1970s and 1980s were a sad time for performance figures though.  Even hot cars would be a thing if they could reach 60 in under ten seconds, which is abysmal today.

But the pre-1973 horsepower figures were bogus, usually measured on a stand with no accessories and no air filter.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 27, 2021, 06:00:27 PM
Complete History of the Chevy Corvette: From C1 to C8 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g22035705/fully-vetted-the-visual-history-of-the-chevrolet-corvette/?utm_source=facebook_dda&utm_medium=cpm&utm_campaign=dda_fb_cd_d_i_g22035705&fbclid=IwAR0PdjrRrdTVXUtVkJCf0gQ_fjisEwfOmvv1ECc5yFFJk9EmuJ-R-XHOXEU&slide=20)

interesting, includes some 0-60 times, which back in the day would be pressed to beat my GTI by much, if any.

Chevrolet skips model year 1983 and releases the fourth-generation Corvette as a 1984 model (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15141822/1984-chevrolet-corvette-c4-archived-road-test/). The sports car is redesigned from the ground up and welcomes additional ground clearance but a lower center of gravity. A 205-hp 350-cubic-inch V-8 is the only engine offered and mates to either a four-speed automatic transmission or Chevrolet's four-plus-three manual gearbox, which offers an available overdrive for gears two, three, and four. We find the automatic car is capable of scooting the low-slung coupe to 60 mph in 6.7 seconds and through the quarter-mile in 15.1 seconds at 91 mph. In spite of our love for manual transmissions, we call the self-shifting gearbox "quite a capable tool for generating performance statistics."
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 27, 2021, 06:03:15 PM
Complete History of the Chevy Corvette: From C1 to C8 (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g22035705/fully-vetted-the-visual-history-of-the-chevrolet-corvette/?utm_source=facebook_dda&utm_medium=cpm&utm_campaign=dda_fb_cd_d_i_g22035705&fbclid=IwAR0PdjrRrdTVXUtVkJCf0gQ_fjisEwfOmvv1ECc5yFFJk9EmuJ-R-XHOXEU&slide=20)

interesting, includes some 0-60 times, which back in the day would be pressed to beat my GTI by much, if any.

Chevrolet skips model year 1983 and releases the fourth-generation Corvette as a 1984 model (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15141822/1984-chevrolet-corvette-c4-archived-road-test/). The sports car is redesigned from the ground up and welcomes additional ground clearance but a lower center of gravity. A 205-hp 350-cubic-inch V-8 is the only engine offered and mates to either a four-speed automatic transmission or Chevrolet's four-plus-three manual gearbox, which offers an available overdrive for gears two, three, and four. We find the automatic car is capable of scooting the low-slung coupe to 60 mph in 6.7 seconds and through the quarter-mile in 15.1 seconds at 91 mph. In spite of our love for manual transmissions, we call the self-shifting gearbox "quite a capable tool for generating performance statistics."

I had a poster of the '84 Corvette on my wall for a couple of years.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 27, 2021, 07:28:06 PM
Slower than my GTI, six seconds flat and 14.5 in the quarter.  Kinda funny.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 27, 2021, 07:56:29 PM
I had a poster of the '84 Corvette on my wall for a couple of years.
as did I
perhaps next to Farrah
It was the suspension and handling that was impressive in the new C4 1984 Vette, not the engine
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 27, 2021, 07:57:48 PM
I think that engine had what they called crossfire injection, which sounds like a mechanical issue.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 27, 2021, 08:45:49 PM
marketing term

worse than "hemi"
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 27, 2021, 08:58:33 PM
Interesting article. Touches on the future of automakers seeking vertical integration on battery tech and production. Still early days, but in my opinion the EV endgame will only make sense when vertical integration is a thing.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/27/ford-moves-to-make-electric-vehicle-battery-cells.html
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 27, 2021, 09:25:23 PM
New York (CNN Business)Millions of people stuck at home for more than a year are expected to hit the road for much-needed post-pandemic vacations this summer. Good luck finding gas.

Not that there's a looming shortage of crude oil or gasoline. Rather, it's the tanker truck drivers needed to deliver the gas to stations who are in short supply.
According to the National Tank Truck Carriers, the industry's trade group, somewhere between 20% to 25% of tank trucks in the fleet are parked heading into this summer due to a paucity of qualified drivers. At this point in 2019, only 10% of trucks were sitting idle for that reason.


https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/27/business/summer-gasoline-shortage/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/27/business/summer-gasoline-shortage/index.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 27, 2021, 10:10:56 PM
perhaps next to Farrah
( ^ ) ( ^ )
That iconic poster was printed in my hometown.
The 1970s and 1980s were a sad time for performance figures though.  Even hot cars would be a thing if they could reach 60 in under ten seconds, which is abysmal
I've often wondered how this will eventually impact the collectors market.

Typically collectible cars tend to spike in price when the guys who dreamed of them in their teens get to roughly their 60's and have the money and time to get into that. Ie, guys in their 60's who have done reasonably well for themselves financially will go buy the car they wanted when they were 15-17ish.

For 70's and 80's cars this would normally cause a price spike between roughly 2015 (15 yr olds from 1970 turned 60 in 2015) and 2042 (17 yr olds from 1989 will turn 70 in 2042).

Performance sucked so bad during that era that I think most of the car guys of those decades instead dreamed about the pre-emmissions cars of the late 60's. It really wasn't until the early 90's ZR1 came out that the new Corvette could beat those.

That puts a car like the 84 Vette in a weird place. Granted, it has MUCH better handling than say a 67 Vette but on a dragstrip the 67 is a second and a half quicker and 14 mph faster at 1,320'.

So will the Vettes of say 1973-1988 ever gain significant collector value?

Per cargurus, a 1984 Vette is worth $2,500-$7,000 today. For comparison a 1964 Vette is worth at least 4x that.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 27, 2021, 10:49:33 PM
as did I
perhaps next to Farrah


( ^ ) ( ^ )
That iconic poster was printed in my hometown. I've often wondered how this will eventually impact the collectors market.
.

Farrah Fawcett went to UT and lived at the exact same apartments I did for a couple of years, although she was there a few years before me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MarqHusker on April 27, 2021, 10:50:23 PM
Love seeing Corvette Clubs get together, they are quite prolific.    One cool byproduct of living in Indy, mass respect and interest in automobiles.   Lots of cool shows, fairs and festivals.   To say nothing of all the cool testing they do at IMS.    This is always the best month or two of the year with classics on the road following winter and getting into May in Indy.

It may not be Pebble Beach, Amelia or some of the other high profile shows but there's not much you won't see in any given year. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on April 28, 2021, 01:04:57 AM
And the emissions of all the electricity generated to power the EV, assuming it isn't 100% solar or other clean energy...
Was that the WSJ op-ed page or somewhere else in the paper?

Based on just that line, I wonder if it was an ideologically-motivated author.
We are at a bit of an advantage in Iowa over the rest of the USA in that our power grid is 40% wind power, in addition we have some solar, and some hydroelectric. Our only nuclear power plant was closed recently. In Iowa EV emissions are fairly low, but so far we have few Teslas, and few Chevy Bolts. If your area still generates electricity through coal, EV autos are not so good with emissions.
Everything is relative, and is more difficult to consider than we like, but having things be relative is the beauty of having an educated society that can see things in grayscale, not just B & W.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 28, 2021, 07:56:36 AM
Human beings prefer absolutes, even when they are wrong.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MrNubbz on April 28, 2021, 08:06:47 AM
Absolutely
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 28, 2021, 08:14:56 AM
We seem to be most comfortable with birds of a feather, in groups, which makes sense.  If we're OSU fans, we don't like UM fans, absolutely, and vice versa.  We act the same way politically and with general opinions, few humans thrive on diverse opinions that are well formed and logical, it makes us uneasy in the main.

This is one thing scientific training SHOULD make you enjoy.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 28, 2021, 08:42:08 AM
So will the Vettes of say 1973-1988 ever gain significant collector value?

Per cargurus, a 1984 Vette is worth $2,500-$7,000 today. For comparison a 1964 Vette is worth at least 4x that.
cars of the mid-70s thru the 80s sucked
I blame Ralph Nader
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 08:56:26 AM
Love seeing Corvette Clubs get together, they are quite prolific.    One cool byproduct of living in Indy, mass respect and interest in automobiles.  Lots of cool shows, fairs and festivals.  To say nothing of all the cool testing they do at IMS.    This is always the best month or two of the year with classics on the road following winter and getting into May in Indy.

It may not be Pebble Beach, Amelia or some of the other high profile shows but there's not much you won't see in any given year.
I'm the same way but with Mustang Clubs.  I really can't get enough of seeing them.

I was never a huge fan of the Mustang Mach 1, I prefer the smaller and more subtle 65/66 years, but I saw a really beautiful gold and black Mach 1 in the Costco parking lot the other day.  Looked like this:


(https://i.imgur.com/ovYNjnB.jpg)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MrNubbz on April 28, 2021, 09:07:45 AM

I was never a huge fan of the Mustang Mach 1

I'm not a classic car nut but a friend had one back in the day it had some cajones.I liked it even though I was a GM guy
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 28, 2021, 09:24:43 AM
classic car clubs gathering and cruising and showing off the iron is always good, even Mopars

a few years ago I started attending the "Show & shine" and other car shows in the area, was gonna try to buy something cool.

Then I decided I'd rather have something I could drive 5,000 miles a year and take to Lincoln or Texas.

So, I gave up on the 60's and early 70's and turned towards 90's Vettes.  Still looking. They are expensive
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 09:48:11 AM
classic car clubs gathering and cruising and showing off the iron is always good, even Mopars

a few years ago I started attending the "Show & shine" and other car shows in the area, was gonna try to buy something cool.

Then I decided I'd rather have something I could drive 5,000 miles a year and take to Lincoln or Texas.

So, I gave up on the 60's and early 70's and turned towards 90's Vettes.  Still looking. They are expensive
Yeah the classics are fun to dream about.  Not at all practical of course.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 28, 2021, 10:01:32 AM
There used to be car shows on many weekends at a park near us.  Some of them were really impressive, some were virtual unknown types.  I enjoyed walking around when the weather was nice.

I went to one very informal "show" (more of a meeting of sports car owners) in France, I had no idea what most of the models were, 1960s Peugots and whatnot.  There was one Vette there, which looked, um, out of place.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 28, 2021, 10:55:37 AM
GM Will Build Two Electric SUVs for Honda by 2024 (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36276289/gm-building-electric-cars-for-honda/?utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR2Gp4VbmHKgSTwdHmYl3BAWm-OGHeatQDWyyeKVN7n4osORoc6L0fNWFqI)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 11:08:34 AM
There used to be car shows on many weekends at a park near us.  Some of them were really impressive, some were virtual unknown types.  I enjoyed walking around when the weather was nice.

I went to one very informal "show" (more of a meeting of sports car owners) in France, I had no idea what most of the models were, 1960s Peugots and whatnot.  There was one Vette there, which looked, um, out of place.


In 1995 I saw a Jeep Cherokee drive through downtown Paris with a surfboard on its roof rack.  Talk about looking out of place...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 28, 2021, 11:10:41 AM
some poor lost American

no wonder the Parisiens have a less than glowing opinion
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 28, 2021, 11:35:06 AM
New Energy Department Battery Target: Shocking Drop To $60/kWh (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/news/503923/energy-dept-battery-price-drops/?fbclid=IwAR09L4_Su4t3G79S-3FdnfqdUehBRpODuxgDTgmvqrMq5WKwMId0JG8bNkc)

 the Energy Department dropped its federal target to $80/kWh. This was an effort that was part of the department's “Energy Storage Grand Challenge," which the publication says may have been influenced by Tesla's and VW's lofty goals.
Now, just this week, the department has dropped its target yet again, to a shocking $60/kWh. Moreover, the department’s director of the Office of Vehicles Technologies Dave Powell told the Mobilist that the new price target "more closely approximates the total cost of the combustion drive train." We're talking about price parity with ICE cars here.
It's important to note that back in 2009, that cost per kilowatt-hour was a whopping $1,200. The goal for 2012 dropped significantly, to $500, with a future target of $100 to $150/kWh. However, at that time, there was no year listed for when that target might become a reality.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 28, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
80s Mustangs were hideous.  But they're collectable now because they had that 5.0 and could really move (for the time).  But to abandon the familiar body design for that crap....ugh.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 28, 2021, 11:52:08 AM
1982 Mustang 5.0L (“M” Code)
bbl 2 barrel
Cylinders 8
Power (hp) 157 hp @4,000 RPM


_______________________________

nothing to be proud of
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 28, 2021, 12:20:13 PM
Might be paywalled, but I was able to access this on mobile this morning:

https://www.ft.com/content/c4e075b8-7289-4756-9bfe-60bf50f0cf66

It's discussing the future of lithium-ion battery tech and the challenges of scale. They seem to think that we're not going to get to a truly "viable" EV scenario at a mass level without solid state battery tech. That's due to a lot of the issues I've noodled on, like lithium and other metal mining scalability, etc. 

One of the few I've seen actually talking about this stuff in depth. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 28, 2021, 12:28:00 PM
Might be paywalled, but I was able to access this on mobile this morning:

https://www.ft.com/content/c4e075b8-7289-4756-9bfe-60bf50f0cf66
I'm interested but it was behind the paywall for me.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 12:41:20 PM
80s Mustangs were hideous.  But they're collectable now because they had that 5.0 and could really move (for the time).  But to abandon the familiar body design for that crap....ugh.
Really 1973 was the end of the first era of Mustangs.  After that, they introduced the "Mustang II" which looked pretty much like the Ford Pinto.  It wasn't until 1979 that they switched to the Fox body that you find hideous, which was the standard platform through 1993.
'
I actually liked the Fox body a lot better than some other iterations (I even owned one for about 10 years).  It was absolutely better than the Mustang II (Which many Mustang clubs won't even acknowledge as a Mustang) and it was also better than some of the bloated, more sedan-like looking 1st gen Mustangs of the early 70s.




Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 12:45:53 PM
For me #1 > #2 > #3



(https://i.imgur.com/Mb50RFi.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/IFB4ITf.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/JxTJ1zn.png)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 28, 2021, 01:03:05 PM
#1 was certainly high on my list circa early 90's.  I always like the LX Mustang of the era a little better for some reason.  

The 80's/early 90's Camaro did not age well at all IMO and the mid 90's to mid '00's aged worse.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 28, 2021, 01:26:20 PM
I think that early-90s mustang saved it.  Total game-changer.
Looking at the year-by-year sales, yeah, the Fox-body was down to 79K, by far the lowest figure ever.  That doubled in 2 years with the early-90s design.  That fizzled in the early-2000s, and the next design change bumped it back up in 2005.  And another big bump in 2015.
.
I was born in '80, and so all I knew growing up was the mid-60s (classics), and Foxbody before the '93/94 version came out.  Those early-mid 70s weren't even a blip on the radar, which you explained why, lol.  But my mind couldn't wrap around going from the 60s design to the Foxbody.....I didn't see the convoluted evolution, just the stark contrast of awesome to awful.
The 93/94 was a huge step in the right direction, and the further redesign in 05 was great, too.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 28, 2021, 01:39:44 PM
Love seeing Corvette Clubs get together, they are quite prolific.    One cool byproduct of living in Indy, mass respect and interest in automobiles.  Lots of cool shows, fairs and festivals.  To say nothing of all the cool testing they do at IMS.    This is always the best month or two of the year with classics on the road following winter and getting into May in Indy.

It may not be Pebble Beach, Amelia or some of the other high profile shows but there's not much you won't see in any given year.
One of the benefits of living in SoCal is that I see a lot of pretty crazy cars on the road.

In ~2003, I was riding motorcycles with a Purdue buddy from Indiana up on Mulholland Highway and we were stopped at a turnout for a break. A parade of ~100+ Ferraris, of all vintages, comes roaring past. Must have been the local Ferrari club. I looked at him and said "I doubt there are this many Ferraris in the entire state of IN..."

It's almost crazy how jaded you get... How exotic a car has to be before it genuinely gets your attention here. Even seeing a McLaren is pretty much ho-hum. Lamborghini, Ferrari? Yeah, I see them in the Target parking lot. Heck, I remember in the early 2000s when I lived in an apartment, and there was an apartment-dweller who had a BMW Z8. Fancy cars are just not all that impressive here.

One that I rarely see and always get a little excited about are Aston Martin. It's one of those situations where you feel like it's somebody that doesn't just have money; they have taste. 

I don't think I've ever seen a Bugatti... That would be an event. That goes beyond "taste" to someone who is just flaunting their wealth again lol...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 01:40:20 PM
 Those early-mid 70s weren't even a blip on the radar, which you explained why, lol.  But my mind couldn't wrap around going from the 60s design to the Foxbody.....I didn't see the convoluted evolution, just the stark contrast of awesome to awful.

The 93/94 was a huge step in the right direction, and the further redesign in 05 was great, too. 
Yeah the Fox body was definitely a huge departure from the original mid 60s styling, and I can totally understand why you don't like them.  And you're not alone, tons of people disliked them.

The 94 Mustang was sort of their first attempt at a bit of a throwback, and I'm luke-warm on it.  When they REALLY committed to the throwback look in 2005, that's when I loved Mustangs again.

My 13yo daughter also loves them, this is her current dream car and she's pretty much dead set on it.  Sure hope she's saving up her babysitting money! :)

(https://i.imgur.com/dbT5hL7.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 02:09:01 PM
Oh, and to keep it on topic-- there is NOT an electric version of the Mustang above. :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 28, 2021, 02:23:35 PM
Husker RED with Blackshirt accents is pretty
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 02:34:32 PM
Husker RED with Blackshirt accents is pretty
Her current middle school colors are red and black, I'm gonna go with that. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 28, 2021, 02:37:43 PM
better a Husker than a Red Raider
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 02:40:39 PM
better a Husker than a Red Raider
As UT has become more and more difficult to get into, a lot more college candidates are finding they must settle for lesser schools like Texas Tech and Texas A&M.  

My kids are straight A+ students, and I expect that to continue through high school, but even then they might not be lucky enough to get into Texas.  

I might seriously have to entertain the thought of allowing them to go to Tech or A&M.  

Tough times.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 28, 2021, 02:47:55 PM
send them up north to a Yankee Big Ten University
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 02:57:20 PM
send them up north to a Yankee Big Ten University
outta state tuition can be a killer.  Unless youse guys give them some full ride schollies.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 28, 2021, 02:59:11 PM
kids that smart have plenty of opportunities for scholarships
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 28, 2021, 03:03:22 PM
That's the plan!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 28, 2021, 03:04:41 PM
#1 was certainly high on my list circa early 90's.  I always like the LX Mustang of the era a little better for some reason. 

The 80's/early 90's Camaro did not age well at all IMO and the mid 90's to mid '00's aged worse.
As the owner of a 1998 Camaro Z28 Convertible I obviously disagree with this. Mine looks like this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=1998+camaro+convertible&client=ms-android-sprint-us-sscr-revc&prmd=sivn&sxsrf=ALeKk03SJS0rE9G87t80dQpoTdm9uz97kA:1619635779956&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiQoNG6zaHwAhWOQs0KHbPBBWQQ_AUoAnoECAIQAg&cshid=1619635808416&biw=412&bih=670&dpr=2.63#imgrc=eH-itfD-wB3rKM

My feelings on the iterations of the Camaro:

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 28, 2021, 03:07:38 PM
Feeling old after posting that. I bought my 98 Camaro in 2002 when it was fairly new. It is now pushing 25 years old.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 29, 2021, 02:40:47 PM
I have to admit that I loved the '93-02 Camaro when they first came out. I loved the earlier ones like you stated, before they changed the head lights.  

Now when I see them I think that they did not age well at all.  I really don't care for them at all, but I supposed if I found a great deal on a convertible or similar nice looking one I might would buy.  

Does the interior have those ridiculously large bubble buttons/knobs? Man, those were really strange, even for the era.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 29, 2021, 02:52:29 PM
The industry’s use of renewable sources of energy is expected to rise from 20% in 2020 to 21% in 2021 and 22% in 2022, due in large part to more wind and solar becoming operational. EIA expects an additional 16.1 gigawatts of new wind capacity in 2021 and 5.8 gigawatts in 2022. And new utility-scale solar capacity is expected to rise by 15.8 GW in 2021 and 14.9 GW in 2022. Another 5 GW in small-scale solar projects will be added in 2021 and 2022, according to EIA.

The 2021 Summer Fuels Outlook forecasts gasoline prices and demand for the April-September driving season. Summer gasoline prices will reach a three year-high, it said.

Prices at the pump will average $2.78 a gallon from April to September, compared to $2.07 a gallon last summer. Buoyed by vaccines and fewer pandemic restrictions, more drivers will likely hit the road this summer, the agency said.


https://www.cooperative.com/news/pages/eia-projects-more-electricity-demand-higher-prices-at-the-pump.aspx?utm_medium=email&utm_source=rasa_io&PostID=29333489&MessageRunDetailID=5074585392 (https://www.cooperative.com/news/pages/eia-projects-more-electricity-demand-higher-prices-at-the-pump.aspx?utm_medium=email&utm_source=rasa_io&PostID=29333489&MessageRunDetailID=5074585392)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 29, 2021, 03:11:58 PM
I have to admit that I loved the '93-02 Camaro when they first came out. I loved the earlier ones like you stated, before they changed the head lights. 

Now when I see them I think that they did not age well at all.  I really don't care for them at all, but I supposed if I found a great deal on a convertible or similar nice looking one I might would buy. 

Does the interior have those ridiculously large bubble buttons/knobs? Man, those were really strange, even for the era. 
To me, that era of Camaro always looked a little weird.  Like an elongated Geo Storm.


(https://i.imgur.com/fojzvUc.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8n6OX12.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 29, 2021, 03:31:11 PM
still looks much better than a similar year Mustang
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 29, 2021, 03:38:25 PM
still looks much better than a similar year Mustang
As I said before, I didn't love the Mustangs of that era either-- but still, I disagree, I don't think the Camaro looks better.  About the same I guess.



(https://i.imgur.com/mWBVJLx.jpg)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 29, 2021, 03:39:24 PM
just being a chevy fan
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 29, 2021, 03:45:29 PM
Ah ok.

I've never really understood the brand identity thing.  I've owned Ford, Chevy, MOPAR, Honda, Toyota, Jeep.  

They all had strengths and weaknesses but were basically the same.  Honda was the most reliable, the Toyota was the biggest POS I've ever owned, but I suppose it might have just been a lemon.

Regardless, I've never seen anything from any specific brand that makes me overly loyal to it, over the others.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on April 29, 2021, 03:49:20 PM
I understand being 'loyal' or a fan of pre-Fiat owned Jeep, but that's about it.  It's like religion, you tend to side with what you grew up with.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 29, 2021, 04:01:36 PM
I don't have any brand loyalty... But somehow I've had a Ford Escort, Probe, Ranger, and now a Flex. The only car I've bought for myself that isn't a Ford is the Jeep. 

Somehow Ford just happens to have the right vehicle for me at the time...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 29, 2021, 04:30:34 PM
I was a Chevy guy, then a Caddy guy.  Now a GTI guy.   Had a Dodge and an Olds too.  The Ford Flex was a neat conveyance.

The fastest car I've driven was a Caddy or a Ferrari Scuderia.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 29, 2021, 04:35:04 PM
Ah ok.

I've never really understood the brand identity thing.  I've owned Ford, Chevy, MOPAR, Honda, Toyota, Jeep. 

They all had strengths and weaknesses but were basically the same.  Honda was the most reliable, the Toyota was the biggest POS I've ever owned, but I suppose it might have just been a lemon.

Regardless, I've never seen anything from any specific brand that makes me overly loyal to it, over the others.
think of it as the Texas Longhorns are a brand
it's exactly like that
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 29, 2021, 04:56:55 PM
think of it as the Texas Longhorns are a brand
it's exactly like that
Oh I understand that people do this.

I don't understand WHY.

Cars aren't teams.  I didn't earn two degrees from The University of Chevy.  

I don't have any brand loyalty... But somehow I've had a Ford Escort, Probe, Ranger, and now a Flex. The only car I've bought for myself that isn't a Ford is the Jeep.

Somehow Ford just happens to have the right vehicle for me at the time...
This, I COMPLETELY understand. I've never been a pickup truck guy, and certainly not specifically a Ford guy despite my longtime love of Mustangs.  But when I was searching for my next vehicle, the F150 Supercrew with the twin turbo ecoboost and max towing package, was the best fit for my needs.   If any auto maker still made a 3/4 ton SUV then that's what I would have ended up with, but they don't.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on April 29, 2021, 09:35:06 PM
Dang,  never made the connection between the geo storm and the 90s Camaro but that’s freaking hilarious. I agree about the back end being weird. Like the guy who designed it was a really huge fan of the millennium falcon because it looks like it needs a bunch of thrusters back there. 

Had all kinds of trucks and cars. Was a Chevy man awhile, bought a F150 crew cab eco boost and now a Ram with the 3.0 eco diesel. Ram is easily the best truck I ever owned, Ford the worst. I actually currently own 4 trucks, a 15 F-250 with the 6.2 gasser, a ‘04 F350 6.0 power stroke diesel, the ‘16 Ram 1500 diesel, and I inherited dads 18 Chevy 1500 5.3 gasser. Also owned Toyota cars and Honda cars. 

Strangely the Honda wasn’t as reliable as I thought it would be. Never owned any Jeep’s but I’d like to. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MarqHusker on April 29, 2021, 09:55:07 PM
I just realized I've gone from owning as my car; Chevy, Ford, Mazda, Subaru, Audi presently. I've liked all of them, but clearly doesn't equate to brand loyalty. 

4 years, 8 years, 7 years, 12 yrs, and 5.
Used, Used, New, Used, New.
Cavalier, Taurus, 6, Outback, A6.
The sub was the only car that my wife drove new for 6 and then I took it over when she went new.
Engine: 4cyl, V6, V6, 3.0R, V6.
Miles: 176k, 215k, 97k, 140k, 56k
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on April 29, 2021, 11:12:19 PM
I just realized I've gone from owning as my car; Chevy, Ford, Mazda, Subaru, Audi presently. I've liked all of them, but clearly doesn't equate to brand loyalty.


Wait, so you're telling me your Audi doesn't sport a Calvin pissing on BMW sticker? :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on April 30, 2021, 08:56:31 AM
On reliability, I think all modern cars are reliable, maybe one or two are slightly more so than others, but you could have the worst one and have no problems for a long time.

As compared with something from 1980, anything today is massively more reliable, for me, it isn't an issue in a purchase decision.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on April 30, 2021, 01:57:03 PM
The company presented a 40 Ah solid-state battery and names like Dieter Zetsche and Mark Fields.

Can a company that offered no details on its technology be a credible contender in the solid-state battery race? If it has names such as Dieter Zetsche and Mark Fields, it certainly hopes so. That’s the case of Factorial Energy, a company that showed its face with a 40 Ah solid-state battery about which it did not speak much.

https://insideevs.com/news/504071/factorial-energy-solid-state-battery/?fbclid=IwAR13JFnn2vKxudOZ-tgPA6tHOPxk57vglI-NB9NSAsjazZpO8-k84stF8zQ (https://insideevs.com/news/504071/factorial-energy-solid-state-battery/?fbclid=IwAR13JFnn2vKxudOZ-tgPA6tHOPxk57vglI-NB9NSAsjazZpO8-k84stF8zQ)

It obviously has a solid-state electrolyte, which would suppress lithium dendrite formation. That is something QuantumScape also said its technology could do. The difference is that Factorial Energy would have already reached the manufacturing stage, like Solid Power.

This seems to be its major breakthrough. The method for manufacturing it would be compatible with “existing lithium-ion battery manufacturing infrastructure,” according to Joe Taylor, the company’s chairman and former Panasonic North America CEO. Other solid-state battery strategies failed to achieve a cost-effective manufacturing process.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 01, 2021, 10:19:17 AM
Electric Car Owners Switching to Gas Because Charging Is a Hassle: Study (businessinsider.com) (https://www.businessinsider.com/electric-car-owners-switching-gas-charging-a-hassle-study-2021-4?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sf-bi-ti&fbclid=IwAR26xGLMljVA4JHWCnKQXdZb2nbjBBdgnvDndeo5VMncGf6v35IJx9QJnfE)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 01, 2021, 10:42:02 AM
I saw that article this morning as well. 

Doesn't surprise me, because it said the same thing I've been saying for years. 



It's one more reason (in addition to price, of course) that EVs are still largely a luxury item. They make the most sense to people who already have homes and can install chargers. They make even MORE sense to people with the means to install solar, especially if those people also invest in home battery backup to charge their batteries during the day and then feed the EV from their batteries at night...

This is much bigger as a purchase decision criteria than range anxiety or charging speed on road trips IMHO. 

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 01, 2021, 11:14:07 AM

Somehow Ford just happens to have the right vehicle for me at the time...
Then someone is earning their paycheck at Ford.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 01, 2021, 11:18:07 AM

It's one more reason (in addition to price, of course) that EVs are still largely a luxury item. They make the most sense to people who already have homes and can install chargers.

And I'd argue that this is the demographic (when it comes to home situations) that least wants an EV at the moment.  Bad combination of the best-equipped also being the least excited.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 01, 2021, 12:18:00 PM
And I'd argue that this is the demographic (when it comes to home situations) that least wants an EV at the moment.  Bad combination of the best-equipped also being the least excited.
Probably some truth to that, although I do know quite a few people in Austin that are homeowners with solar setups and will likely move to having at least one EV in the near future.

But I won't pretend that Austin is representative of the rest of the country when it comes to stuff like this.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 01, 2021, 02:52:16 PM

But I won't pretend that Austin is representative of the rest of the country when it comes to stuff like this.


Yeah, just some truth, not total.  I was about to respond with this ^^ but saw you did.  It's especially true with Texas-centric stuff, too.  Austin is representative of Austin.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 01, 2021, 02:55:17 PM
Georgia had a tax credit on top of the Federal tax credit for a while and I see quite a few EVs around as a result of that.  Of course, it was the relatively wealthy vuying $90 K Teslas and getting $10 K from guvmint for it.

Charging stations are becoming fairly common now.

I counted 14 in easy walking distance.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 01, 2021, 03:50:21 PM
Georgia had a tax credit on top of the Federal tax credit for a while and I see quite a few EVs around as a result of that.  Of course, it was the relatively wealthy vuying $90 K Teslas and getting $10 K from guvmint for it.

Charging stations are becoming fairly common now.

I counted 14 in easy walking distance.
My office building has 12 or 15 charging spots, that all run off solar panels installed on the roofs of all the covered parking.  But that's 12-15 out of several thousand, and of course none of us have actually been in the office since March 11, 2020.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 01, 2021, 04:03:18 PM
My office building has 12 or 15 charging spots, that all run off solar panels installed on the roofs of all the covered parking.  But that's 12-15 out of several thousand, and of course none of us have actually been in the office since March 11, 2020.
Do they have their solar cells coupled with batteries or some storage device?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 01, 2021, 09:00:16 PM
Do they have their solar cells coupled with batteries or some storage device?

Yes, of course.  The charging stations are powered entirely by solar and battery.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 02, 2021, 12:52:08 PM
Here's the problem with electric cars (motorauthority.com) (https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1127239_here-s-the-problem-with-electric-cars?ta=&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A Trending)

A gallon of gasoline is equivalent to 33.7 kilowatt-hours of energy, according to Fenske. So that one gallon contains more energy than the entire battery pack of a first-generation Nissan Leaf.

However, electric cars are generally more efficient than gasoline cars, Fenske noted. The 2ZR-FXE engine used in the Toyota Prius is one of the most efficient internal-combustion engines in production, at around 40 percent, according to Toyota. But most electric motors can consistently operate at 90 percent efficiency, according to Fenske.



Interesting data here, I think.  If you compare a Chevy Cruze and a Bolt, the latter has a 60 kwhr battery and about 250 miles of range.  A Cruze gets around 35 mpg highway, so it would use about 7 gallons to traverse 350 miles.  The above indicates that you need about 15 kwhrs to go as far as a gallon of gas (efficiency included).  So, we'd project the Cruze would need about 7 times 15 kwhrs in gasoline to g et 250 miles, which is a bit off.  Regen braking would add some range in city driving.

In reality, in a mixed urban/highway driving, the Cruze gets about 30 mpg which helps sort it out.  I think.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 02, 2021, 01:18:22 PM
Charging stations are becoming fairly common now.

I counted 14 in easy walking distance.
They're no use to people if they're within walking distance!!!!  lol
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on May 03, 2021, 09:16:53 AM
I was under the impression that gasoline engines were 25% efficient, diesel at 35%. Most of the energy is wasted out the tailpipe as heat. Add in transmission losses, mechanical losses through the differential, etc. 

The weak link in EVs is and will be the battery. The cost, the weight, and the energy density. Speed of charge and longevity are factored as well. 

I think we’re about two battery tech breakthroughs from what it would take to get EVs on par with ICE. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 03, 2021, 09:20:29 AM
The GM Ultium concept is interesting, not a breakthrough of course, but interesting.  I'd say we're one major battery advance short now.  Or, a major government tax credit short.  Take your pick.  GM and Ford and VW "think" the market is going EV in 14 years in a Big Way.  We'll see, maybe.

I'd take Cadillac to EVs, perhaps, in cars, and let Chevy remain mostly ICE.  Buick is stupid to me, they shoulda kept Pontiac.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 03, 2021, 09:51:08 AM
Buicks are for old folks that don't want to spend Cadillac money
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 03, 2021, 09:53:31 AM
Yeah, something like that.  Pontiac had a clear image, rightly or wrongly, better than Buick's.  I think they kept Buick because it is a top seller in China.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: 847badgerfan on May 03, 2021, 09:59:00 AM
Yeah, something like that.  Pontiac had a clear image, rightly or wrongly, better than Buick's.  I think they kept Buick because it is a top seller in China.


And in Arizona and Florida.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 03, 2021, 10:30:33 AM
in my experience, Buick has been a much better vehicle the past decade or so.

old folks don't put up with crap

the 97-2004 Grand Ams and Grand Prixs were junk
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 03, 2021, 10:54:16 AM
The mechanical differences back then between Pontiac and Buick were minimal.

Same car, different body styling.

When I'm in the car market, Buick doesn't even come to mind, for me, as a plausible option.  My daughter in C-bus just leased a Hyundai Tucson, 2022 model.  She had been looking at a Chevy Trailblazer, I suggested some other options including Hyundai, she drove one and really liked it a lot more than the Chevy.  I don't even know what the Buick equivalent would be named.

The Trailblazer has a 3 cylinder engine (2 types), which always strikes me as odd for some reason.:)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 03, 2021, 11:11:52 AM
I had a 3 cylinder 2-stroke 750 Kawasaki motorcycle back in the day

called it the bug killer - blue fog out the back

it was quick

some called it the Widowmaker
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 03, 2021, 11:14:45 AM
I find the boxer 4 cylinder engines of Porsche and Subaru interesting.  Usually, if a design is that superior, everyone adopts it, I suppose in this case the advantages are offset by disadvantages (roughness among them).

Balance shafts today are amazing though.

The car I'd like to own is a BMW 240i convertible with the straight six.  It sounds really good, goes like a bat, and gets good fuel economy.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 03, 2021, 12:39:12 PM
2022 Kia EV6 GT Is a High-Performance EV with 577 HP and AWD (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35978496/2022-kia-ev6-gt-specs-revealed/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR03FQvLyIi79QW5toI3VyklbXs9rMduJabeJ7K5nbEwGYkRR1p7E0ZWgzA)


Kia has surprised us with a high-performance version of its new electric car, the EV6 (https://www.caranddriver.com/kia/ev6). Called the EV6 GT, this range-topping model features an all-wheel-drive powertrain with front and rear electric motors that produce a total of 577 horsepower and 546 pound-feet of torque. It's available only with the larger of the EV6's two battery packs and also features visual tweaks to set it apart from the lesser versions.
Kia's performance claims for the GT are impressive: a sprint to 62 mph in 3.5 seconds and a top speed of 162 mph. It also features software that is said to to mimic the behavior of a limited-slip differential. Hyundai has not announced any sort of performance version of the related Ioniq 5 EV (https://www.caranddriver.com/hyundai/ioniq-5), so Kia may have the exclusive on this high-powered drivetrain.


Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 04, 2021, 07:22:34 PM
Tesla Model S Long Range Plus Can Go 320 Miles at 75 MPH (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36302930/tesla-model-s-long-range-plus-highway-range-testing/?utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1VKMfATlMvoBu8XgtBMmMgDo2VPYQpJkGcf2XcQ5kOPGiRhXPpS6Rz-pQ)

Not bad, recharging of course takes times.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on May 05, 2021, 10:11:54 AM
Two weeks ago I drove from Houston to north of Wichita KS.  From the Northern OK border area all the way past Wichita we were behind a Tesla.  I didn't know it because it was night and I couldn't see the make or type of car until we hit a slow spot and was able to get up beside him.  I had been wondering what kind of car it was but I was mostly just keeping pace as I'm apt to do on long stretches of unremarkable driving.  We were driving 80+ mph for several hours.  When I finally realized it was a Tesla I was quite shocked because he or she kept up this pace for several hundred miles.  I'm not sure how much range they had left but I was impressed at how fast and how long that car had went.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on May 07, 2021, 06:11:26 AM
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2021/05/07/reimagining-muscle-dodge-must-redefine-itself-age-electrification/4931392001/?utm_source=detroitnews-Daily%20Briefing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=daily_briefing&utm_term=list_article_thumb
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 10, 2021, 11:49:30 AM
Are Hydrogen and Fuel Cells Finally—Finally!—Ready For Prime Time? (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/hydrogen-fuel-cells-ox-injection-hyblend/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR0wNeKNijxQ_VtopU90N6BJW6w19Mto55OTd2J0udz1aD4jpeE54x1e8-c)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 10, 2021, 04:07:06 PM
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36384035/ford-f-150-lightning-name-confirmed/



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iS5f716oYQ&feature=emb_imp_woyt

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 11, 2021, 01:19:38 PM
If so, game changer I think ... but cars in Europe cost quite a bit more than here.

Electric vehicles cheaper than combustion by 2027: study (techxplore.com) (https://techxplore.com/news/2021-05-electric-vehicles-cheaper-combustion.html?fbclid=IwAR2EdtexjtdpWFdiLACg4LueDsHmW49BknTFcffVMMt8K2ELfcJw9benDjs)

Electric cars will be cheaper to build than fossil fuel vehicles across Europe within six years and could represent 100 percent of new sales by 2035, according to a study published Monday.
Carmakers are shifting en masse to electric and hybrid models in order to bring average fleet emissions under a European Union limit of 95 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometre, or face heavy penalties.
The study by Bloomberg New Energy Finance found that electric sedans and sport-utility vehicles will be as cheap to make as combustion vehicles from 2026.
Small cars will have to wait until 2027 to match the cost of fossil fuel models, according the study, which was commissioned by Transport and Environment, a European clean transport campaign group.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 11, 2021, 02:53:09 PM
That's so strange that change is initiated by hitting them in their wallets!  Wait, no, their commercials inform me that they're doing it for the planet.  Now I'm confused.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 11, 2021, 02:58:39 PM
That's so strange that change is initiated by hitting them in their wallets!  Wait, no, their commercials inform me that they're doing it for the planet.  Now I'm confused.
I certainly am, I have no clue what this post means, none.  Pronouns such as "them" and "their" and "they're" often are vague.

I'm sure they are responsible for it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 13, 2021, 08:43:01 AM
2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E RWD First Test: A Very Cool Electric Pony (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang-mach-e/2021/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-rwd-first-test-review/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR3tjigZPSVuElci7G9zQcFMyCwU-RH13amiGhR1yoIQxIs4Knnnc_bznH4)

In due time, Ford is going to give Tesla a run for its money, I added. (Of course, it already has, in our extremely close recent comparison test between the two automakers (https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-y/2020/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-vs-tesla-model-y-electric-suv-comparison-test-review/).) The brief conversation took place in Palm Springs, an idyllic setting for an electric stallion (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-power-torque-details/) in vibrant Rapid Red to roam the palm tree-lined streets emissions free. Just the night before, I had immersed myself in a thrilling night drive behind the wheel of our Mach-E test vehicle near the Port of Long Beach.





I'm pondering what this will mean for Tesla longer term if GM and Ford sell comparable vehicles.  Competition is good for pricing.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 13, 2021, 09:01:08 AM
Mahle's cheap, highly efficient new EV motor uses no magnets (newatlas.com) (https://newatlas.com/automotive/mahle-magnet-free-electric-traction-motor/?fbclid=IwAR2jkp5yk_9m2ypFPyiUXzER1bLqg4m9K6WLBRY0IktuUMmCif3aWwn2zJ8)

The new Mahle design uses no magnets, instead using powered coils in its rotor. Unlike previous efforts, it transfers power to the spinning rotor using contactless induction – so there are basically no wear surfaces. This should make it extremely durable – not that electric motors have a reputation for needing much maintenance.


This is a bit misleading I think.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 13, 2021, 09:20:58 AM
Some click-baity looking article on FB says they have roads that can charge a car AS IT DRIVES.
.
That could be our "new tech" that makes the 'charging station vs battery switch-out' debate moot.  You know, teach the controversy.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 13, 2021, 09:22:45 AM
We discussed this previously, induction usually is not very efficient, it's well known tech of course.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 13, 2021, 12:46:36 PM
Ford Mustang Mach-E Vs Tesla Model 3: Detailed Comparison (insideevs.com) (https://insideevs.com/features/506916/mustang-mache-vs-tesla-model3/?fbclid=IwAR2NvFeQN2TxSx-JEBTpZf3zYFHB8-0bZip0vY8jZbKWUkScQgOfXp8-JP0)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 13, 2021, 01:32:22 PM
2022 Chevy Bolt EUV's Range Falls Short of Original Estimates (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-chevrolet-bolt-euv-range/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR18SZM9o7W-UmLiZE2040zBau5woAFevR-WxTpOqbMnH9X1MpqEN4k6A-E)

Look for the 2022 Bolt EUV (https://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevrolet/bolt-euv/2022/) and 2022 Bolt to go on sale before the end of the summer, with the former priced from $33,995 and the latter from $31,995.

247 mile est. range.  I think this is about as good an EV as you can get at that price.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 13, 2021, 01:43:36 PM
It's fun that a car guy who likes to blow up space ships can shit on your stock with one tweet.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 13, 2021, 01:44:17 PM
not if you don't own that stock
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 13, 2021, 01:48:34 PM
We discussed this previously, induction usually is not very efficient, it's well known tech of course.
But I clicked it anyway!!!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 13, 2021, 01:49:36 PM
I'm looking for investers in an exciting opportunity:  OAMcoin!  We'll start the tidal wave, pump it up to $2 billion, then cash out!  Who's with me?!?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 13, 2021, 05:40:36 PM
2022 Hyundai Santa Cruz Is a Small-Pickup Version of the Tucson (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36125131/2022-hyundai-santa-cruz-pickup-revealed/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR29MTDj48HHPe8-UVfwdY6yGwE69jVnFqfsdUc3vike5bKqW1udftShVSI)

I think this is pretty cool, not an EV of course.  The daughter just leased a Tucson, a 2022 model.


(https://i.imgur.com/RHVffvJ.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 13, 2021, 06:04:33 PM
I think Chevy was doing it better back in 1966.

(https://i.imgur.com/ZsJkUli.jpg)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 13, 2021, 06:12:13 PM
2022 Hyundai Santa Cruz Is a Small-Pickup Version of the Tucson (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36125131/2022-hyundai-santa-cruz-pickup-revealed/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR29MTDj48HHPe8-UVfwdY6yGwE69jVnFqfsdUc3vike5bKqW1udftShVSI)

I think this is pretty cool, not an EV of course.  The daughter just leased a Tucson, a 2022 model.


(https://i.imgur.com/RHVffvJ.png)

I don't see it.

Seems to me that it fits the idea that "hey, I need 4 seats but occasionally I need a pickup truck", but... I doubt it does either very well. 

What is that, a 4 ft truck bed? That's not a pickup. You're not going to do pickup things with that. 

And you have 4 doors with seats in the back, but looking at the proportions I don't think you're going to have much rear legroom. 

Seems like the vehicle designed to do everything... but it doesn't do anything well... 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 13, 2021, 06:32:54 PM
True, but I have had need at times for a small pickup, but usually I just needed a four door vehicle.  I like the concept.

When I needed a pickup though, I rented one for $20 at the local Menard's and got it done, so that is a better option.

My GTI has a surprising amount of room inside.  It's too dang practical really.  It does everything quite well.  Unfortunately.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 13, 2021, 06:43:25 PM
True, but I have had need at times for a small pickup, but usually I just needed a four door vehicle.  I like the concept.

When I needed a pickup though, I rented one for $20 at the local Menard's and got it done, so that is a better option.

My GTI has a surprising amount of room inside.  It's too dang practical really.  It does everything quite well.  Unfortunately.
I think a lot of people don't ever even think of this. 

And that's the problem with that Santa Cruz... It's not a small pickup. It's a small sorta-pickup. A 4' bed is useful when? 

Let's say you need a pickup 6 times a year... How many of those 6 times a year will a 4' bed not work for you? Half of them? More? Less? 

I can see where that vehicle might make sense... Let's say you are heavily into gardening. A small bed like that might make perfect sense for carrying around nasty stuff you don't want in your vehicle (soil, fertilizer, potting equipment, etc) as well as plants or flats of flowers. I can see something like that.

But if you need a pickup for actual real hauling on a regular basis, a 4' bed is useless...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 13, 2021, 06:49:27 PM
Even the 5.5' bed on my actual pickup is too small to do many pickup things.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 13, 2021, 06:53:13 PM
Even the 5.5' bed on my actual pickup is too small to do many pickup things.

Wait, your F150 is a midget pickup?

Even my Ranger had 6'.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 13, 2021, 06:59:11 PM
Wait, your F150 is a midget pickup?

Even my Ranger had 6'.

With the Supercrew cab (way more room in the cab than competitors) they only offer the 5.5 and 6.5, they don't even offer a full longbed.  And by far most people only order the 5.5.  It barely fits in my garage, and my garage is long.

To me the interior space is way more important than the exterior space.  I bought it for three things-- comfortable daily driver, family vehicle, and a tow rig.  I didn't buy it to haul 4x8 sheets of plywood in the bed, but it does quite well for camping/boating gear.  As I've said many times, if I coulda gotten a Suburban or Expedition with the towing specs my pickup has, that would be the ideal vehicle for the purpose.  

But they haven't made them in over a decade.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 13, 2021, 07:05:25 PM
This one is just like mine:

(https://i.imgur.com/wnM9gl7.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 13, 2021, 07:05:47 PM
Ahh yeah, I remember you saying that towing was the key. 

I originally bought the Ranger so I'd have a vehicle I could use to take the bike to track days... It was only a year or so later that I crashed that bike and sold it... But I kept the truck nearly a decade more...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 13, 2021, 07:25:20 PM
Ahh yeah, I remember you saying that towing was the key.

Yup, I don't even need it to be an offroader, now that we have the Jeep. :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on May 16, 2021, 02:01:11 PM
I had a F150 super crew with the 6.5’ bed. Dang thing was long, and hard to park. I find my Ram super crew with the 5.5’ bed much easier to maneuver. Plus, I have a small utility trailer that I can tow to handle the times where I need a little more bed space. Otherwise the 5.5 is a perfect compromise. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 16, 2021, 02:09:02 PM
Tested: 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E Lives up to the Hype (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a34968692/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-drive/?utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR2kyrBSLXLZtRDrNS-gI6_umovinBG3bRvxhMGqs1oQqHtlXtzcQKJLhE8)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 16, 2021, 02:21:54 PM
there was hype for a 4-door electric?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 16, 2021, 05:00:23 PM
there was hype for a 4-door electric?
Yes, it's sort of standard, I think nearly all EVs have four doors now.  Apparently Ford wanted the name to garner attention, which is has, but attention can work both ways.

The wife liked the Mustang convertibles we have rented, I didn't so much, but I think I would enjoy the 5.0s.  I was earlier today looking for a BMW 240i convertible nearby, even used the few around are too expensive for what they are IMHO.  I might look for the 'Stang.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 16, 2021, 09:58:08 PM
as you know, 4 doors are for kids and groceries

impracticable

not hype able, unless you have a few kids 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 17, 2021, 07:59:51 AM
as you know, 4 doors are for kids and groceries

impracticable

not hype able, unless you have a few kids
G-men and mobsters like 4 doors, too!
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 20, 2021, 01:02:47 PM
F-150 Lightning: Ford already has 20K reservations for new electric pickup (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/20/ford-already-has-20000-reservations-for-new-electric-f-150-lightning-pickup-.html)

How Much Will the 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning EV Pickup Cost? (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36451264/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-price/)

All Lightnings will come with all-wheel drive and a crew cab, so by our approximation the most equivalent gasoline model is the 2021 F-150 XL SuperCrew 4WD with a short bed, which costs $41,855. That base version has a 3.3-liter V-6 engine with 290 horsepower and 265 pound-feet of torque, which pales in comparison with the base Lightning's 426 hp and 775 pound-feet.


I heard on the news towing was rated at 8,000 lbs, but range is probably very short if doing that.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 20, 2021, 01:25:41 PM
gonna cost more the $50K
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 20, 2021, 01:31:15 PM
When demand outstrips supply, which happens early in a car's run, the mfg will only build "well equipped" models, not base models.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 20, 2021, 02:35:35 PM
regardless of trim package

EVs cost much more than their gasser counterparts
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 20, 2021, 02:39:51 PM
The 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Can Power Your House, a Lot Else—for a While (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-truck-charging-generator-power/?fbclid=IwAR2FRR-xodODTBKnzDZOrYrZNL5Pf8XDqRLcoTi1-vnZZv9VbYjEjEnr3HY)

Plug into a 150-kW DC fast charger and the battery can fill from 15 to 80 percent charge in just 41 minutes, gaining as much as 54 miles in 10 minutes. With the extended-range battery and dual-charger plugged into an 80-amp Ford Charge Station Pro charger, the system can take the battery from 15 to 100 percent charge in 8 hours, or roughly 30 miles per hour of charging.

Now the fully electric 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning (https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-electric-first-look-review/) leapfrogs that capability by making it possible to power an entire average home for about three days through its charging cord.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 20, 2021, 03:22:07 PM
We Bet F-150 Lightning Range Is under 100 Miles with Heavy Towing (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36481590/ford-f150-lightning-range-towing/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR1DqgdwmPvezSijBjTtRCDfInReWWdsOGz8mJfI88SaR61n1wLY_0DmlkE)

For folks with bank and who drive a pickup around town exclusively, this seems like a decent option, to me.

But if you want to tow 10,000 lbs 500 miles, not.

(https://i.imgur.com/Pwg0Ec1.png)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 20, 2021, 03:44:14 PM
regardless of trim package

EVs cost much more than their gasser counterparts
The problem with that statement is "their gasser counterparts" is a really hard thing to define...

Look at the ubiquitous Tesla Model 3. They like to compare themselves to luxury sedans, such as the BMW 3-series or the Lexus ES.

The base Tesla Model 3 starts at $38K, and will do 0-60 in 5.3s. The base BMW 3-series starts at a little over $41K, and will do 0-60 in 5.6s. The base Lexus ES starts at 40K, and will do 0-60 in 6.6s.

Now, you may say that 0-60 performance isn't all that, and I completely agree. But one of the key metrics that people rave about with EVs is their instant torque and acceleration, so for a sporty luxury sedan, performance isn't something that doesn't matter at all.

If you then start looking at performance models, the Model 3 Performance starts at $55.5K and does 0-60 in 3.1s. The BMW M340i jumps to about $55K as well and does it in 4.4s, or you can go all the way up to the M3 Competition to get to about $73K and 3.8s. The Lexus ES F Sport is much less expensive, of course, not getting past $50K, but all of the performance gains are suspension, not acceleration.

If you max out the build options on that Model 3 Performance, including the Full Self Driving* package, you get to $68.5K. If you (pretty much) max out all the options on the M340i, you get to $65K.

So, when you look at the car that Tesla considers in its class**, it's actually fairly competitively priced.

* Full Self Driving not actually being full self driving; rather it's just advanced driver assistance.
** The argument against would be that Teslas are not as luxurious as a BMW... But Tesla fanbois will argue that with you until they run out of breath.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 20, 2021, 03:50:01 PM
EVs excel at acceleration, even the relatively humble Chevy Bolt.

The F-150 is supposed to start in the low $40 K range which is competitive with an equivalent F-150 ICE truck.

I'm impressed really.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: 847badgerfan on May 20, 2021, 03:52:21 PM
The Model 3 is old man ass ugly.

Only the Model S looks nice.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 20, 2021, 03:55:13 PM
my interest level in EVs is weak regardless of looks

I'm not even interested in an Electric golf cart

but, I'm an old man
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 20, 2021, 04:02:01 PM
I think EVs are "getting there", and faster than I imagined, but are not quite there yet.

One factor that could come into play is the impact on gasoline pricing down the road.  At some point, EVs will likely reach an appreciable percentage that cuts gasoline usage and demand, which should cut prices.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 20, 2021, 04:12:03 PM
in the same respect, if demand for gas powered vehicles is lowered significantly, the pricing could also drop for a new F-150 w/o lightning
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 20, 2021, 04:17:36 PM
35,000 trees............


https://youtu.be/r7kWuIsPl0c
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 20, 2021, 04:30:40 PM
The Model 3 is old man ass ugly.

Only the Model S looks nice.
The S is a damn good looking car. It's sleek and literally everything works, design-wise. They nailed it.

The X is a nondescript bubble. 

The 3 is generally a decent-looking car, but that platypus front end just ruins everything. 

The Y is profoundly boring, but again would be a much better looking car without the platypus nose.

------------------

And then there's the CYBRTRK. Nobody owns one yet, but I already want to punch all CYBRTRK owners. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: 847badgerfan on May 20, 2021, 04:52:29 PM
Holy crap that's bad.

Inspiration for that must have been...


(https://i.imgur.com/eJ1KDKY.jpg)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 20, 2021, 04:58:25 PM
Holy crap that's bad.

Inspiration for that must have been...


(https://i.imgur.com/eJ1KDKY.jpg)
That's ugly, but at least it's functional. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on May 20, 2021, 04:58:49 PM
Now do you have to have your testicles removed before you are allowed to step onto the lot? Or do they just do that while they are finalizing the sale, and filling out the paperwork? 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 20, 2021, 06:00:30 PM
We Bet F-150 Lightning Range Is under 100 Miles with Heavy Towing (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36481590/ford-f150-lightning-range-towing/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&fbclid=IwAR1DqgdwmPvezSijBjTtRCDfInReWWdsOGz8mJfI88SaR61n1wLY_0DmlkE)

For folks with bank and who drive a pickup around town exclusively, this seems like a decent option, to me.

But if you want to tow 10,000 lbs 500 miles, not.

(https://i.imgur.com/Pwg0Ec1.png)

There is zero chance it will be a reasonable choice for people that tow a lot. 

Hybrid is the correct "green" technology for that use case.

Also, ever notice how any time the manufacturers want to show how "cool" a truck is, it's towing an Airstream?  Yeah, they really are the coolest.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 20, 2021, 06:59:58 PM
That may not be a Ford image.  Very short haul towing would be OK.  Like from the boat dock to the marina.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 20, 2021, 08:07:27 PM
That may not be a Ford image.  Very short haul towing would be OK.  Like from the boat dock to the marina.
Ford Image, Chevy Image, Dodge image.  They all love to use Airstreams to bolster their brands.  As they should.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 20, 2021, 11:06:10 PM
it's simple

airstream owners have a huge  carbon footprint
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 21, 2021, 02:53:29 PM
Herbert Diess, just like Tesla's Elon Musk, seems to be on the same page with full commitment to battery-electric cars and distancing themselves from hydrogen. Tesla and Volkswagen Group are the #1 and #3 largest automotive groups in terms of BEVs sales globally right now.

https://insideevs.com/news/508443/vw-herbert-diess-hydrogen-cars/?fbclid=IwAR2_zqi-PQHp_kHX9hl30O_Ptj8Ta3cD-tM98ygfbJ8ho9-G-QMPT47nRz4 (https://insideevs.com/news/508443/vw-herbert-diess-hydrogen-cars/?fbclid=IwAR2_zqi-PQHp_kHX9hl30O_Ptj8Ta3cD-tM98ygfbJ8ho9-G-QMPT47nRz4)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMp12K5mR1cdqMOXP9r05Rhcw--Xq-t382C7cuPpCOF7zecPyC-VfIgoxATS3izVa006k&usqp=CAU)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 21, 2021, 03:44:14 PM
(https://scontent.ffod1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/187090293_10160808174055828_499212109484446130_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=8mHhL7X8QEAAX96BuXv&_nc_ht=scontent.ffod1-1.fna&oh=caf74f9e1b5f700a67bb56a754ce2ebf&oe=60CC82A8)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on May 22, 2021, 12:44:14 AM
Herbert Diess, just like Tesla's Elon Musk, seems to be on the same page with full commitment to battery-electric cars and distancing themselves from hydrogen. Tesla and Volkswagen Group are the #1 and #3 largest automotive groups in terms of BEVs sales globally right now.

https://insideevs.com/news/508443/vw-herbert-diess-hydrogen-cars/?fbclid=IwAR2_zqi-PQHp_kHX9hl30O_Ptj8Ta3cD-tM98ygfbJ8ho9-G-QMPT47nRz4 (https://insideevs.com/news/508443/vw-herbert-diess-hydrogen-cars/?fbclid=IwAR2_zqi-PQHp_kHX9hl30O_Ptj8Ta3cD-tM98ygfbJ8ho9-G-QMPT47nRz4)

[img width=300 height=168.991 alt=Michael Wickle (@michael_wickle) | Twitter]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMp12K5mR1cdqMOXP9r05Rhcw--Xq-t382C7cuPpCOF7zecPyC-VfIgoxATS3izVa006k&usqp=CAU[/img]
The electric lithium battery powered car is a bridge car to another car of a different fuel, which I believe will probably be hydrogen. The electric car will lower emissions, somewhat. 

Although hydrogen cars are currently on the market in the USA, they probably will not gain much market share for another 10+ years as there is almost no infrastructure in place. California has some limited hydrogen infrastructure. 

How will no longer useful lithium batteries be disposed? 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 22, 2021, 10:44:46 AM
How do you get hydrogen?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 22, 2021, 12:19:37 PM
How do you get hydrogen?
You just need some water molecules and a samurai sword, duh.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 25, 2021, 09:38:58 AM
for the chemist...........

Scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL) have found that a bright yellow powder, known as common fluorenone, is a frontrunner in using low-cost organic compounds that step away from traditional lithium-ion batteries.

The material has proven to be a stable, energy-dense source when partnered with flow battery systems that store energy for grids, despite taking some “chemical persuasion” at first.


https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/05/24/meet-clean-energy-s-unlikely-secret-weapon-scented-candles (https://www.euronews.com/green/2021/05/24/meet-clean-energy-s-unlikely-secret-weapon-scented-candles)

Common fluorenone is readily available as a waste product from coal tar and from the manufacture of benzoic acid, a common food additive.

It can successfully synthesise into a tiny battery no larger than a postage stamp that holds incredible energy density, losing only 3 per cent of its energy capacity throughout the duration of the experiment.

PNNL’s battery operated continuously for 120 days, ending only when other equipment unrelated to the battery itself wore out. The battery went through 1,111 full cycles of charging and discharging, the equivalent of several years of operation under normal circumstances.

The speed and high energy retention of this battery could sidestep many of the issues that come with keeping clean energy grids going in the face of structural and severe weather challenges.

"This is a great demonstration of using molecular engineering to change a material from one widely considered impossible for use into something useful for energy storage," says Wei Wang, who leads the flow battery team.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 25, 2021, 09:40:56 AM
Three years ago, scientists at the University of Michigan discovered an artificial photosynthesis device made of silicon and gallium nitride (Si/GaN) that harnesses sunlight into carbon-free hydrogen for fuel cells with twice the efficiency and stability of some previous technologies.

Now, scientists at Lawrence Livermore and Lawrence Berkeley national laboratories – in collaboration with the University of Michigan – have uncovered a surprising, self-improving property in Si/GaN that contributes to the material’s highly efficient and stable performance in converting light and water into carbon-free hydrogen. The research, reported in Nature Materials, could help radically accelerate the commercialization of artificial photosynthesis technologies and hydrogen fuel cells. 

Materials in solar fuels systems usually degrade, become less stable, and as a result produce hydrogen less efficiently, but the team found an unusual property in Si/GaN that somehow enables it to become more efficient and stable.

Previous artificial photosynthesis materials are either excellent light absorbers that lack durability or they are durable materials that lack light-absorption efficiency.

But silicon and gallium nitride are abundant and cheap materials that are widely used as semiconductors in everyday electronics such as LEDs (light-emitting diodes) and solar cells, said co-author Zetian Mi, a professor of electrical and computer engineering at the University of Michigan who invented Si/GaN artificial photosynthesis devices a decade ago.

When Mi’s Si/GaN device achieved a record-breaking 3 percent solar-to-hydrogen efficiency, he wondered how such ordinary materials could perform so extraordinarily well in an exotic artificial photosynthesis device – so he turned to senior author and Berkeley Lab scientist Francesca Toma for help.


https://scitechdaily.com/unusual-property-in-hydrogen-fuel-device-discovered-could-be-ultimate-guide-to-self-improvement/ (https://scitechdaily.com/unusual-property-in-hydrogen-fuel-device-discovered-could-be-ultimate-guide-to-self-improvement/)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MarqHusker on May 25, 2021, 09:46:10 AM
I drove my friend's Tesla this weekend.   The only thing that remains disorienting is the pedal/regenerative braking.   Wonderful car otherwise. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 25, 2021, 10:15:54 AM
I love hearing about material/technology advances made in a lab, but I always take that with a grain of salt. 

Proving you can do something in a lab and proving that you can actually produce it at scale and economically are two WIDELY different things. 

There are tons of results proven in a lab that a press release states are going to revolutionize our world. Maybe one of 100 actually does it? Maybe fewer than even that?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 25, 2021, 11:26:53 AM
agreed, but it does give me some hope that a breakthrough could happen
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 26, 2021, 10:51:24 AM
I begin to think this is upon us, sooner than expected.

Ford ups EV investments, targets 40% electric car sales by 2030 under latest turnaround plan (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/26/ford-ups-ev-investments-targets-40percent-electric-car-sales-by-2030-under-latest-turnaround-plan.html)

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 26, 2021, 12:12:35 PM
40% is a target

as you know, the market will decide
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 26, 2021, 05:01:07 PM
Yes, a target, and for "cars" also.  NYD resolution kind of thing.  One way to hit such a target is to have much less sales volume.

And if new car sales hit say 50% by 2035, it still takes years for the cars on the road to hit 50%, and then we'd be needing more power on the grid.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on May 27, 2021, 01:58:49 AM
I think by 2026 we will be close to 40% EVs. Time will tell. If the performance is what we have read, the masses will be persuaded. I like performance. I also like to drive from NE Iowa to Colorado, Arizona, and Florida, occasionally, so improvement in EV infrastructure, and battery life is needed. But for 90% of my driving, I don't need infrastructure improvement.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 27, 2021, 06:17:59 AM
Maybe new car sales are 40%, maybe, but cars on the road will still be 10% or so, at most.

The Japanese car makers are not on board with this, to date, they prefer hybrids.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 27, 2021, 12:07:13 PM
That's also a global number.  I scanned quickly but didn't see anything mentioned for domestic sales.  FoMoCo sells quite a few cars abroad.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 27, 2021, 12:19:00 PM
EVs are not yet a thing in much of Europe oddly enough from what I've seen, aside from Norway.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 27, 2021, 12:27:46 PM
I love hearing about material/technology advances made in a lab, but I always take that with a grain of salt.

Proving you can do something in a lab and proving that you can actually produce it at scale and economically are two WIDELY different things.

Is this a Covid joke? 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 27, 2021, 12:28:53 PM
EVs are not yet a thing in much of Europe oddly enough from what I've seen, aside from Norway.
China appears to be their #2 market by a wide margin.  Not sure how ubiquitous EVs might be in China.  I have a couple guesses though...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 27, 2021, 12:37:00 PM
Like Beta says, I've seen myriad reports of some new incredible breakthrough "in the lab" that simply didn't translate to commercial feasability.  I probably have been directly involved in a couple.  Folks get some positive results and tend to hype the positive and downplay the "issues", which turn out later to be significant.

My managers would do this all the time, to the point I eventually found a different job.  The managers would move on, get promoted, whatever, and I'd be left witht he turds.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on May 27, 2021, 01:01:00 PM
The vessel’s electrical motors are powered by hydrogen and fuel cells and it can cruise at 30 knots while also being energy-efficient. Its unique design, based on hydrofoils and slender hulls, reduces wave generation. And this is important not just for a smooth sail, but mostly because boat-generated waves also have a negative impact on the environment.

The high-speed shuttle was designed to be customizable, meaning that it can be used to transport passengers or freight and the design can be adapted to various sizes and capacities, ranging from 50 to 400 passengers, or from 4 to 36 tons.

The Japanese version of ZESST is only a prototype for now, with plans to become a high-speed passenger shuttle in the near future.


https://www.autoevolution.com/news/fuel-cell-high-speed-shuttle-to-be-introduced-in-japan-for-passenger-transport-161967.html (https://www.autoevolution.com/news/fuel-cell-high-speed-shuttle-to-be-introduced-in-japan-for-passenger-transport-161967.html)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 27, 2021, 01:03:17 PM
Is this a Covid joke? 
No. Not at all. Wasn't political, and wasn't a joke.

I've spent the last decade being told about all the things that are going to replace NAND flash. Phase change memory. Racetrack memory. Memristors. Spin-torque memory. Probably a few others that I'm missing because they didn't pan out.

They all have wonderful success--in the lab. And given a decade more research and a number of billion dollars, one of them MIGHT someday prove to be a NAND-killer. We have no clue which one, of course...

So I'm excited when I hear about some potentially new and revolutionary battery technology, because I'm a tech geek. But then I file away in my memory. What I don't do is start predicting that revolutionary battery technologies are "just around the corner" based on what someone does in a perfectly controlled lab environment, at a small, scale, without regard to the logistics necessary to produce at scale.

If I was a VC, I might follow these things a little more closely though lol...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 27, 2021, 01:32:26 PM
I was approached a while back by a person who advised a VC (unnamed) about a technology, and I looked at it and saw several points of, well, garbage.  I wrote up a one pager with the pros and cons and emailed it, got paid a little bit, never heard back.

The "spin" was well done, very professional, it just overlooked two huge obvious issues, or ignored them to get money.  I thought maybe I'd get more "business" but never did.  It would be a nice sideline.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 27, 2021, 01:42:58 PM
I was approached a while back by a person who advised a VC (unnamed) about a technology, and I looked at it and saw several points of, well, garbage.  I wrote up a one pager with the pros and cons and emailed it, got paid a little bit, never heard back.

The "spin" was well done, very professional, it just overlooked two huge obvious issues, or ignored them to get money.  I thought maybe I'd get more "business" but never did.  It would be a nice sideline.
I wonder if you had advised differently if you would have gotten more business. 

Sometimes [usually] telling someone what they want to hear is a lot more profitable than telling them the truth. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 27, 2021, 01:49:18 PM
Yup, I thought that as a possibility.  I know the person who was advising him fairly well, we used to be "friends" and coworkers, he contacted me a few times since about other matters but not this.  I also wondered if the VC dropped HIS services.  He was a Stanford MBA, no technical background.  I also wonder if VCs throw money around almost at random, I don't know if many are able to evaluate anything of a technical nature fairly.

The wife watched Sharp Tank a lot, so I catch some of it, and I think their "evaluations" are shallow perforce given time and TV limitations.  I guess some work out for them.

A lot of times someone will say they have a provisional patent, which is worth squat, or even an issued patent, but of what sort?  With what claims?  Just having a patent means nothing.  You have to look at the claims and the art area.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 27, 2021, 05:54:04 PM
Is this a Covid joke? 
No. Not at all. Wasn't political, and wasn't a joke.

My post WAS a joke.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: utee94 on May 27, 2021, 10:58:09 PM
My post WAS a joke.
i saw it as a joke.

People around here seem overly sensative. :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 28, 2021, 11:36:11 AM
Norway Fines Tesla for Battery Loss on Older Model S, Model X EVs (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36522448/norway-fines-tesla-battery-loss-ev/?utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1tRx0BPEeV9sStCxd9uhFEh3nUG12Dd36MaOeG4bb7G2i8Ps6O6BSam6Q)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Geolion91 on May 28, 2021, 01:15:51 PM
I'm a bit late to the conversation, but I haven't been on here for awhile.  (Work, and life, has been very busy)  FWIW, I prefer trucks, I have an F-150 right now and am planning to buy again in a few years.  I'd be interested in an electric one, if the range is good enough, or a hybrid.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 28, 2021, 01:31:44 PM
The F-150 electric has pretty good range as advertised, 300 miles or so.  I think it would be more than adequate for someone who needs it for around town work.

If you need it to tow something heavy for 300 miles, not a good option yet.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Geolion91 on May 28, 2021, 01:40:41 PM
I do have some boat trailers to tow, but they are not heavy.  The tricky part would be traveling to rural lakes and being able to charge it.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on May 29, 2021, 06:35:44 AM
The truck EVs will first appeal to folks who use them locally with no long range towing, I think, and who have the money to buy something fancy (plus early adopters).  I'd guess a lot of work trucks are used entirely locally to get to jobs.  If the price premium makes sense, they should be popular, though the private contractors who drive 15 year old trucks won't be first in line.

If you tow something long range, some Diesel hybrid would to me make sense.  An electric motor could provide extra torque when climbing hills under heavy load and braking would recover some of your energy.  Hybrids usually have exceptional urban fuel economy for that reason, regen braking.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 03, 2021, 04:25:04 PM
Ford Is Producing More Electric Mustangs Than Gas Ones (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36622782/ford-mustang-mach-e-vs-gas-sales/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR2XvzlR9zpQjPnNfFem_F_AMDAkfn124_d5-X5hRJwDusN67yhawsmak14)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Honestbuckeye on June 06, 2021, 10:01:13 AM
This.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 06, 2021, 10:43:54 AM
Ford Is Producing More Electric Mustangs Than Gas Ones (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36622782/ford-mustang-mach-e-vs-gas-sales/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR2XvzlR9zpQjPnNfFem_F_AMDAkfn124_d5-X5hRJwDusN67yhawsmak14)
that's great but, those aren't mustangs
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 06, 2021, 11:37:20 AM
I've seen ads for the Lightning and read some reviews, I think it will be a hit at that price point.  I think the "Mustang" won't be, much, they have novelty sales now.  The F150 variant is more appealing than the Mustang I think.



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on June 06, 2021, 11:41:50 AM
I've seen ads for the Lightning and read some reviews, I think it will be a hit at that price point.  I think the "Mustang" won't be, much, they have novelty sales now.  The F150 variant is more appealing than the Mustang I think.

I think the Mustang will be plenty popular... Just not with Mustang fans lol...
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 06, 2021, 11:45:29 AM
any vehicle can be popular if the price is right
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 06, 2021, 12:10:04 PM
The price IMHO is too high, the price of the Lightning isn't, in my view, for what you get.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on June 06, 2021, 11:38:50 PM
I think the Mustang will be plenty popular... Just not with Mustang fans lol...
My sister and her husband took delivery on the Mustang SUV EV about 5-weeks ago, replacing their Ford Fusion Hybrid. When they rebuilt their house four-years ago they had 240V installed in the garage anticipating advancements in automobile technology. They get all the charge they need overnight, as most of their driving is local.

The reviews they give are good. It looks more like a Mustang than an SUV, despite its four doors, and it is very, very fast. They will never have to repair or replace a transmission, engine, water pump, or change engine oil. My brother-in-law reports that the batteries are very heavy which makes the Ford Mustang SUV perhaps heavier than a regular SUV. It does 0-60 in 4.2 seconds. Motors on front and back.

I am waiting until the new VW Type 2 type EV comes out. :)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 07, 2021, 09:23:01 AM
2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E: Model Y Not?

[th]SPECIFICATIONS[/th]
[th]2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E 4x[/th]
[th]2020 Tesla Model Y Dual Motor Long Range[/th]
0-60 MPH4.8 sec4.1 sec
QUARTER MILE13.4 sec @ 103.5 mph12.4 sec @ 114.8 mph
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH109 ft118 ft
LATERAL ACCELERATION0.85 g (avg)0.86 g (avg)



Very respectable numbers, but I think it's too expensive for what you get.  I think the F-150 EV is a better deal for folks needing a local truck.

One other things about EVs is you likely would never need brake pads or rotors, ever.  They rarely get used.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 07, 2021, 09:55:25 AM
I wasn't aware that a 240V outlet was required for a EV charger
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 07, 2021, 10:18:16 AM
You can charge most EVs with 120v, but it would take forever.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 07, 2021, 10:19:26 AM
like 4-5 hours overnight?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 07, 2021, 11:49:09 AM
Level 1 electric car chargers are the least expensive option, and are typically provided when you purchase your Chevy Bolt. Level 1 chargers plug into a standard wall outlet. They are also the slowest type of EV charger available. A standard Chevy Bolt Level 1 charging station will be able to offer about 4 miles of range per hour of charging. The Bolt has a 238 mile range, which means that it can take more than a day to charge its battery with a Level 1 charger. As a result, this type of charging station is best for overnight use at home.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 07, 2021, 11:51:18 AM
I've heard that the slow chargers are better for the life of the battery.  Fast chargers are hard on the battery.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 07, 2021, 11:55:53 AM
That could be true for older models, I THINK the newers ones have smarter charging regimes.  If you don't drive much, 110v overnight is adequate.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on June 07, 2021, 12:54:55 PM
like 4-5 hours overnight?
No, as CD pointed out, charging on 120V gets you around 4-5 miles per hour spent charging. 120V might work for someone who works from home and isn't driving much, but for someone with a meaningful commute plus errands every day, a few days in a row of driving will leave you in trouble.

I've heard that the slow chargers are better for the life of the battery.  Fast chargers are hard on the battery.
There is a lot that is done to optimize charging. Temperature, charge rate, how full you charge the battery, etc all play into battery life.

For example, most Tesla owners don't regularly charge their batteries to 100% unless they're prepping for a road trip. They set the max charge around 80% which helps to preserve battery life, and assume that 80% is going to be more than enough for daily around-town driving. 

For road trips, Tesla can map out your charging regimen such that it plots out the next supercharger location for you to stop along the route. A certain number of miles before you reach the supercharger station, Tesla will actually start heating up the battery packs because the batteries takes charge better and preserve battery life when charging at higher temps than low temps.

"Faster" is not necessarily worse than "slower", as long as everything is within the design parameters of the battery pack. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 07, 2021, 01:04:14 PM
 a lot is happening with battery technology for sure

seems extreme temps would be rough in places like Arizona or northern Minnesoota
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 07, 2021, 06:15:18 PM
Electrify America, a charging network funded with money paid by Volkswagen as punishment for its emissions cheating scandal, says it’s ready for the newer EVs. Having installed fast chargers since 2018, it runs more than 600 stations with 2,600 plugs nationwide. All can pump out 150 kilowatts. That means they can charge a typical EV with 300 miles of range to 80 percent of battery capacity (240 miles) in roughly 45 minutes. Over half of Electrify America’s stations can pump out 350 kilowatts, which charge twice as fast.

A fast-charge fill-up to 80% of battery capacity varies by state but typically costs around $16.


https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-b53446b771166fda14c24d814d1758c9 (https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-b53446b771166fda14c24d814d1758c9)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on June 08, 2021, 01:57:33 AM
I pay $47 to fill up 16 gallons. I can get about 450 miles. Mustang EV range is 300 miles. Let's assume $20 to fill it up. We have to have a new measurement of efficiency, i.e. miles per dollar. 

Mustang SUV EV gets about 15 miles per dollar.

2017 Chevy Equinox gets 9.6 miles per dollar. But, add in the oil changes, transmission oil changes, tune ups, and radiator flushes, and miles per dollar goes south with internal combustion engines. 

Since most families are two car families, I think it is wise now to have one internal combustion engine auto for long trips, and one EV.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 08, 2021, 08:34:36 AM
I think in 3-4 years, a lot of families will go to one and one.  We're not quite there yet I think.  The EV premium needs to be less.

Electricity hereabouts is much cheaper than the national average.  Of course, places where it's higher often have higher gas prices as well.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on June 08, 2021, 09:03:44 AM
My F-I-L only slow charges, and he has the chevy bolt.  He reasons that by slow charging the battery will last longer, and plus he doesn't want to expend the cash to install a 240V Level 2 Charger.  I personally think it's stupid because when you're driving you're discharging the battery much faster than slow charging replenishes it.  Of course, he doesn't travel any meaningful distance, and has three other ICE vehicles, so he doesn't mind if it takes all day to recharge.  


We figured out that he gets about 5 miles per KWH, or 20 KWH per 100 miles of effeciency.  So at $.12 per KWH it cost him about $2.40 cents to travel 100 miles.  Not sure what it would cost to fill up a commercially available charger, but there lots of place around where  you can charge for free, even in my rural area.  I think it's in novelty stage right now.  I'm almost certain that once those "free" charges start to become occupied all day every day the business owners will realize that people are taking advantage of their generosity and start charging.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 08, 2021, 09:12:02 AM
They added two chargers in our building, they require a credit card.  So far, I've seen one EV hooked up, and I walk by 2-3-4 times a day.

It's coming, and faster than I expected 2-3 years back, but still not all that fast.  A two car family will start considering an EV as a second car seriously I think within five years.  They might not buy it, but they will often consider one.  The price premium is still there, but that truck is, to me, impressive.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on June 08, 2021, 09:33:00 AM
At some point economics will be the driver.  When I can do 80% of what I need to do with an electric F-150 (like tow my 20' boat to the harbor and back ~80 miles) cheaper with an EV than I can do with gas then it's game over.  Right now I don't think an electric F-150 would quite do the job I need.  The Electric F-150 is supposed to be starting at $40,000, which is right in line with what a gas F-150 would cost.  The range is not the same, and of course it will take longer to "refuel".  I'd love to see the range/specs when towing medium loads like a boat.  

I think they will appeal the most to people like myself who own 3-4 pickups/vehicles that don't have to rely on one truck to do it all.  I currently own 5 trucks, two for my business, two for personal, and then my sons.  Give the EV a couple of battery capacity upgrades over the next 5-10 year I can easily see that EV 150 fitting nicely in my fleet. Remember, the price of lithium batteries has went down ten fold over ten years.  I'm not sure if we'll still see a drop in price like that but as more and more economies of scale come online I expect them to still drop some, even with increased demand.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 08, 2021, 09:56:24 AM
economics is always the driver.  When it's cheaper for me to drive electric, I will.

but, it will need to be quite a bit cheaper, because today I'm driving a V8 not a 4-cylinder.  Obviously I could be saving some money.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on June 08, 2021, 10:21:12 AM
https://www.mining.com/scientists-develop-cheap-and-easy-method-to-extract-lithium-from-seawater/
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 08, 2021, 11:37:43 AM
https://www.mining.com/scientists-develop-cheap-and-easy-method-to-extract-lithium-from-seawater/
Researchers at King Abdullah University of Science and Technology developed what they believe is an economically viable system to extract high-purity lithium from seawater.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 09, 2021, 10:14:18 AM
The Future Summit 2021 Is a Sneak Peek of the Cars (and Thinking) of the Future (motortrend.com) (https://www.motortrend.com/news/cars-future-coming-car-future-summit-2021/?sm_id=organic_fb_MT_trueanthem&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=&utm_source=&fbclid=IwAR2TePVLYmshm3DNeLeBrlNvXKGMC61bvtAObYsivm5OTHRiBxgKCtga4DA)
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Gigem on June 09, 2021, 03:45:28 PM
economics is always the driver.  When it's cheaper for me to drive electric, I will.

but, it will need to be quite a bit cheaper, because today I'm driving a V8 not a 4-cylinder.  Obviously I could be saving some money.
Well, it's the driver on a large scale, yes.  but I'd argue that for each individual it's not always the driver.  For example, I drive a diesel pickup.  Yes, it gets much better fuel mileage than a comprable gas pickup (mid 20's compared to high teens).  But it cost more to buy, more to maintain, and the diesel fuel is more expensive.  So, based purely on economics, it's not really a money saver.  But, I like driving a diesel truck, I like the power, and I like other things about it.  Even though economics isn't necessarily the driver.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 09, 2021, 04:06:14 PM
I'm an individual like you

it's got to save me BIG money before it will drive me to buying an EV
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 09, 2021, 04:31:10 PM
Would you pay more money for faster acceleration?  Probably, for most of us, the answer is yes, in some cases.

But right now the economics don't work in my view, the F-150 is maybe close depending.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on June 09, 2021, 04:42:35 PM
One of the big things for me if I were looking right now is that I don't typically buy brand new vehicles. Get them lightly used, let someone else eat the initial depreciation, and I'll still get a decade out of any decent car.

I understand that used EVs right now aren't much of a discount to new. 

Hopefully by the time I'm in the market (5-6 years) there will be a more reasonable supply of quality used EVs on the market at reasonable discounts to brand new.

Or at least if there aren't, that I can find some sort of 0% financing deal, because that's one of the few things that can somewhat offset the penalty for buying brand new. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 09, 2021, 04:45:51 PM
Buying used is economical, especially considering how reliable most cars are today.  I'm not sure buying a 3 year old Camaro SS is a great idea in general, but a 3 year old Malibu?  Cheap and probably reliable for ten years.

I saw some Porsche 911, I think it was a 2012 model, on sale for $~90 K.  Holy cow.

A used EV "could" have diminished battery life of course, will to some extent.  Don't know if that gets factored into the used price.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 09, 2021, 04:49:15 PM
electric golf carts don't hold their value like gasser cause the batteries are expensive to replace

I enjoy faster acceleration, but I usually have the V8 which is probably fast enough for me to get in trouble
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 09, 2021, 04:53:17 PM
These EVs are often faster than comparable V8s, like the Porsche Tachan, or however it's spelled.

The Chevy Bolt is a good deal faster than the Chevy Cruze.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 09, 2021, 04:55:18 PM
yup, but it's not like I'm driving a dog, like the Chevy Cruze
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 09, 2021, 05:07:54 PM
Ford Will Source F-150 Lightning Batteries in Georgia, U.S.A. (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36488021/ford-f-150-lightning-batteries-us-trade-war/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR1cX_WPp1lIC2xQpF5_z-104NnlRqvAmL4OeMoSC6OvuyAjkpR34RZq0Bs)

I had not known this, we drove by that new battery plant, it's huge.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Hawkinole on June 10, 2021, 01:55:23 AM
yup, but it's not like I'm driving a dog, like the Chevy Cruze
Chevy Cruze is not a performance car. I received good reports regarding how it would drive long distance from a mechanic. So, I bought one for my daughter. We drove it from NE Iowa to Tucson for her internship. I flew back. Gas mileage from 34 to 42 mpg. When you drive it, it drives bigger than it is. I flew down and rode back with her. Then, she drove 3x Dubuqe - Stevens Point 412 miles RT for her next internship. It has been a very good little car. Too bad it was discontinued and the Lordstown factory in Ohio closed. It is a solid car with high safety ratings for such a little car, and many other feelings of quality, especially considering its size.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MrNubbz on June 10, 2021, 06:13:55 AM
CD might like this from my favorite mad genuis mechanic

https://youtu.be/KFbXVLS0lAs
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 10, 2021, 08:48:38 AM
Chevy Cruze is not a performance car. I received good reports regarding how it would drive long distance from a mechanic. So, I bought one for my daughter. We drove it from NE Iowa to Tucson for her internship. I flew back. Gas mileage from 34 to 42 mpg. When you drive it, it drives bigger than it is. I flew down and rode back with her. Then, she drove 3x Dubuqe - Stevens Point 412 miles RT for her next internship. It has been a very good little car. Too bad it was discontinued and the Lordstown factory in Ohio closed. It is a solid car with high safety ratings for such a little car, and many other feelings of quality, especially considering its size.

most cars are good cars these days, not knocking them for their intended purpose.
I'm currently driving my daughter's school car, 2010 Malibu.  It's a solid car.  Not my type, but I can see why people like them.
daughter thought the car wouldn't last the winter in Lincoln.  I talked her into buying a Lincoln with all-wheel drive instead of a Durango on a used car lot in Lincoln.

I gave her $3,000 for the malibu thinking I would sell it.  I've driven it over 9,000 miles since last fall.
I need to dump it, the A/C doesn't work and it's way to warm for that here in Iowa.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 10, 2021, 10:16:30 AM
My kid had a job with a lot of driving involved at the time, so we bought a Cruze Diesel, it routinely got over 60 mpg highway.

And it was a nice car I thought, for about $23K we paid.  Obviously, it was slow once you got past the torque band, it was a manual transmission.  The daughter had a 2012 Cruze, an absolute strippo, not a single option, it also was a pretty nice car.

My point is that an EV as compared with an ICE model of similar size and function will likely be a good deal quicker on acceleration.  So, you get that benefit.

But we're not very close yet to cost equivalence.  Maybe the F-150 is close.  That one sparks my interest.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 10, 2021, 11:04:45 AM
the question is...... why would a half ton pickup be very close on cost, but not a small car?  Seems odd.

Are they willing to lose money on the F-150 to gain market share and reputation?
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 10, 2021, 11:10:00 AM
I think they would be losing money initially.  Obviously, a larger heavier frame provides volume for batteries, and also weight.  I don't know the trade offs of course.  It also has a rather spacious frunk as an added component.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 10, 2021, 11:28:02 AM
the base C8 Corvette has gone up $1200 each year.

Perhaps the Lightning bumps the price measurably next year? 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 10, 2021, 11:33:04 AM
What often happens is they don't build more than a handful of "base" vehicles.  They make fully optioned Corvettes because they can sell them at $90K and make a little money.  Ford probably will make mostly $60 K F-150s initially and be closer to break even.

Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 10, 2021, 11:54:49 AM
This Is Why We Don't Have Solar-Powered Cars (roadandtrack.com) (https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a36675078/why-we-dont-have-solar-powered-cars/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowR%26T&fbclid=IwAR0NhaK1FHOlwxxZp7I4zy59AYhAMwBVww8Gl5RRvbT4cBdWtrvf7E9UZxs)

Leave the car sitting still and you can build up that energy reserve. It just won't happen quickly. With cloudless skies, it'd take 200 hours (8.3 days) to fully charge a Tesla Model 3's 75-kWh battery. With perfect solar panels and perfect weather, that's still a pretty imperfect result.
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: FearlessF on June 10, 2021, 01:13:06 PM
perhaps they could mount a small windmill as a hood ornament
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: MrNubbz on June 10, 2021, 01:19:26 PM
https://youtu.be/cHT0qUpLxMI
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on June 10, 2021, 01:31:11 PM
I think the F-150 is basically Ford's most profitable model. So they may be making money but at much thinner margins on the base Lightning compared to the comparably priced F-150 ICEV. 
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 10, 2021, 02:39:53 PM
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36376244/2020-tesla-model-y-performance-by-the-numbers/?src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR2ozzAsXCqXPMO4W9EUHQ81f27ABYBF7Ha0_tjK_A8RwS11vm2f1pULduk
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 19, 2021, 04:56:02 PM
Here's What it Will Take for EVs to Take Over the Car Market (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36676835/ev-report-net-zero-2050/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social-media&src=socialflowFBCAD&utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&fbclid=IwAR12w9pjiBhKdpelT_PQ3iDjGgxvBLWiI15kcB5ueeK50sXO2-qf5ezS7Y8)



Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 20, 2021, 09:44:43 AM
There are about 276 million vehicles in the US.  About 16 million new ones are sold each year.  So, if EVERY new vehicle were an EV today, it would take a long time to replace most of the fleet.  
Title: Re: Electric Vehicles - Your Interest level
Post by: Cincydawg on June 20, 2021, 10:29:59 AM
Here's Every New Electric Vehicle Model for Sale in the U.S. (caranddriver.com) (https://www.caranddriver.com/shopping-advice/g32463239/new-ev-models-us/?utm_campaign=socialflowFBCD&utm_medium=social-media&utm_source=facebook&src=socialflowFBCAD&fbclid=IwAR1PTsIYlAJ9SnZP7OatN098sCdn-AbJ5GICKvbR0WCBizHq4kx9ylWaqUU)