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Topic: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation

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utee94

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2019, 10:24:23 AM »
I get that,but Universities can just say enough we're in the business of educating young adults not providing entertainment for the networks.The problem is IMO from a collegiate POV is that most sports in most programs are money losers - this is what is brushed aside.Not a lot of DI programs turn a profit after "ALL" the bills/program expenses are paid for
I get that,but Universities can just say enough we're in the business of educating young adults not providing entertainment for the networks.The problem is IMO from a collegiate POV is that most sports in most programs are money losers - this is what is brushed aside.Not a lot of DI programs turn a profit after "ALL" the bills/program expenses are paid for
I don't disagree that something's gotta give.

I just don't think it'll be the NFL doing the "giving" you know what I mean? :)


Anyway, after all of the liability for injuries/concussions/CTE comes home to roost, I think football is going to look very different at ALL levels.  We're already seeing declining numbers of junior high and high school athletes playing football.  The foundation is eroding and ultimately I don't think what we're doing is sustainable at all.


I'm just trying to enjoy it because what we're seeing rifght now ARE the "good old days" -- football just doesn't know it yet.

rolltidefan

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2019, 10:28:00 AM »
I don't think California is going to have to stand by itself or strongarm anyone.  I think there are plenty of states/universities that will likely enact similar law.
i'm not so sure.

first, i might be wrong but i think i saw where most cal schools were against the law, or at least apprehensive about it. ncaa IS the schools, that's the only ones they represent. they wouldn't have the rules if the vast majority didn't want these rules. or even a strong minority.

second, and i am not an attorney so take this with a big block of salt, i don't think most states will need to. nothing they did in this act really changed anything. all they did is basically make a law that 'nullifies'  the ncaa bylaw. ncaa has some interstate commerce and antitrust protection due to the type of entity it is, but they must be within state/federal laws. however, i don't think you can just make a law for the sole purpose of nullifying a bylaw of such entities. (everything i just said it amateur hour based on what i've read/seen/heard, and could be completely off. would love to hear some attorney thoughts on it). 

also, and more importantly, most states won't need to because it will work itself out without them needing to do anything. as i said, this law doesn't make anything that was previously illegal legal, it just attacks this bylaw. whether the ncaa decides to just go along with it and adapt, fight it and win, or fight it and lose, it'll be resolved long before the other state will need to make changes. some will anyway.

FearlessF

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2019, 11:12:32 AM »
there is some stats that, if they don't refute it, then at least muddy it so that that narrative isn't a clear one. i haven't looked at them in several years, but the win% of small schools vs big boys was actually higher before the limits (minutely, it was basically a wash). again, it's been a while, and these wins 'feel' more common, and maybe they are since i looked it up 5-10 years back, but i thought that was interesting.
you could be right

back in the 60s, 70's and early 80's I don't remember Nebraska and Michigan having close calls or huge upsets vs Appy St. and Northern Ill.  Also don't remember North Dakota schools terrorizing the big boys.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2019, 11:14:53 AM »
Oh I'm not disagreeing that a lot of schools cheat the system, I just don't agree that those that are cheating right now would be against this change.


Make no mistake about it, the schools that are already paying players, are licking their lips at this opportunity. 
Ed Zachery.  Also, just because there would now be a legal way to pay players doesn't mean the cheaters would quit cheating.  They would also continue paying players illegally.  Such as recruits before they sign......
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Anonymous Coward

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #60 on: September 11, 2019, 11:19:26 AM »
I disagree. People in positions of power rarely lose their power when change is made. It will be the other student athletes that get hurt. No AD is going to cut his salary drastically when instead he can get rid of 2 non-revenue sports and blame the Big Bad Football for it. "I had to get Volleyball and Fencing because of this new rule. I had no choice."
Yes, if (a) the NCAA refuses to compromise (on name/likeness or independent pursuit of market value) *and* (b) the ADs respond to that environment in the worst possible way, contraction of  non-revenue sports is the remaining option. But that's the dumbest possible outcome. In that situation, (a) the NCAA and its inaction is to blame for its worst nightmare and (b) the ADs have chosen bad stewardship, since we already showed in the 1990s and early 2000s that these ADs could each support this many sports with 1990s/early-2000s budgets.

A "market value stipend" (which, to be clear, I strongly disprefer except as a last resort) might cost $100K *110 scholarship revenue athletes at a place like Michigan where the only revenue sports are football, bball, and hockey. That $11M *pales* in comparison to any Big Team's revenue growth (even accting for inflation) since 2000, when -- again -- these ADs were comfortably managing the same number (or approximately the same number) of sports they support now.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #61 on: September 11, 2019, 11:22:04 AM »
Arizona and Oregon and Utah simply can't afford to allow the California schools' players to be paid, while theirs cannot.  The playing field would be unbelievably slanted in that case, and any chance at competition would cease to exist.

One way or the other, this has to end up all or nothing.  It might be within the construct of the NCAA.  It might not.  It might be within the construct of the current conferences.  It might not.
That is precisely accurate. And I think this groundswell of litigants against the NCAA and of Skinner-type bills in other legislatures all combine to indicate that the future is more likely to be "all" than "nothing."

Anonymous Coward

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #62 on: September 11, 2019, 11:28:49 AM »
Oh I'm not disagreeing that a lot of schools cheat the system, I just don't agree that those that are cheating right now would be against this change.

The schools cheating the most right now would be happy to move that pay from under the table, to over the table.  This is an incredibly easy vehicle for them to do so.  And they'd avoid having to pay the bagmen and street agents and "trainers" and "7-on-7 Organizers" their cut.  They could either save some money, or they'd have more money to pay off their players.  The ones with the deepest pockets will be able to funnel the most money to recruits and they'd be delighted to be able to do it above-board.

Make no mistake about it, the schools that are already paying players, are licking their lips at this opportunity. 
I think you are making the mistake of assuming that (whether it's boosters or coaches) all of the richest schools are cheating (and/or cheating equally). If that were not true (if there are rich schools that aren't yet cheating as well as rich schools that are cheating to lesser degrees), then opening the market (and allowing the non-cheaters and lesser cheaters to come out of the woodwork) will be disproportionately favorable for them relative to the rich schools that were formerly cheating most. Because the biggest rich cheaters were previously accessing the largest chunk of their true "pay players" potential, they will be at a relative disadvantage in this new environment. They may well still grow in payer payments, just not as much as elsewhere.

SFBadger96

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #63 on: September 11, 2019, 11:32:59 AM »
and i am not an attorney so take this with a big block of salt, i don't think most states will need to. nothing they did in this act really changed anything. all they did is basically make a law that 'nullifies'  the ncaa bylaw. ncaa has some interstate commerce and antitrust protection due to the type of entity it is, but they must be within state/federal laws. however, i don't think you can just make a law for the sole purpose of nullifying a bylaw of such entities. (everything i just said it amateur hour based on what i've read/seen/heard, and could be completely off. would love to hear some attorney thoughts on it). 
How was your stay at Holiday Inn? :)

So a couple of things: states can certainly regulate commerce within their borders, but there could be an argument that California's actions interfere with the federal regulation of interstate commerce. Haven't put a lot of thought into that, but I think it's a stretch. There isn't a lot of direct federal regulation over the NCAA; it's a private organization operating primarily pursuant to its own rules. The NCAA could argue that this somehow infringes on distribution of Title IX funds, but, again, a stretch.

The NCAA doesn't really have any special antitrust protection. Unlike MLB, there is no special exemption for the NCAA. However, the NCAA has relied for decades on "amateurism" for the product it sells. So in an antitrust analysis, the NCAA wants courts to apply the antitrust laws in a way that maintains amateurism in college sports because without that, the NCAA says, it has no product, or at least not a competitive one. The big problem for the NCAA is that the courts have been pretty hostile to that view. Antitrust laws are all about economic analysis, and the analysis for amateurism as a product doesn't work very well.

SFBadger96

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #64 on: September 11, 2019, 11:40:51 AM »
Of course, this isn't just about the NCAA championship level programs. There are 58 Div. 1-3 schools in California. Although that's less than 10%, it's still a big number.

Now, at all but the major Div. 1 schools, this law will have no impact, or almost none. Few people clamber to buy the center's jersey for a D-3 program, or even most Div. 1 programs outside of major football and major basketball, and photographs (and even video game likenesses) of all of those non-major players aren't likely to drive a lot of royalty dollars. But it could really shake up how the big kids interact with the littles. And it will really confuse athletic directors as to how to treat their major sport athletes as opposed to their others. 

What wouldn't surprise me is a players association that forms and negotiates for the rights of the players as a group, with its own system for divvying up the dollars that come in from royalties.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #65 on: September 11, 2019, 11:51:24 AM »
Of course, this isn't just about the NCAA championship level programs. There are 58 Div. 1-3 schools in California. Although that's less than 10%, it's still a big number.

Now, at all but the major Div. 1 schools, this law will have no impact, or almost none. Few people clamber to buy the center's jersey for a D-3 program, or even most Div. 1 programs outside of major football and major basketball, and photographs (and even video game likenesses) of all of those non-major players aren't likely to drive a lot of royalty dollars. But it could really shake up how the big kids interact with the littles. And it will really confuse athletic directors as to how to treat their major sport athletes as opposed to their others.

What wouldn't surprise me is a players association that forms and negotiates for the rights of the players as a group, with its own system for divvying up the dollars that come in from royalties.
If the eventual rules are "market value" rules and the smaller school athletes have little market value, their ADs should not be much affected by these rule changes. Ditto about P5 schools dealing with non-revenue athletes. They may be hurt in pride, and the small schools may be hurt in association, if the P5 breaks away, but I don't think we need to coddle them. Just acknowledge that this is the way of our capitalistic world and that college athletics is no longer in a separate reality.

FearlessF

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #66 on: September 11, 2019, 11:54:07 AM »
the offensive guards and the women's sports members will love the player's union

the star QB, LB, RB, and WR on't like it so much.

instead of the NCAA members making money from the QB's likeness, it'll be the union making the money.

the star players will still be exploited
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #67 on: September 11, 2019, 11:55:31 AM »
How was your stay at Holiday Inn? :)

So a couple of things: states can certainly regulate commerce within their borders, but there could be an argument that California's actions interfere with the federal regulation of interstate commerce. Haven't put a lot of thought into that, but I think it's a stretch. There isn't a lot of direct federal regulation over the NCAA; it's a private organization operating primarily pursuant to its own rules. The NCAA could argue that this somehow infringes on distribution of Title IX funds, but, again, a stretch.

The NCAA doesn't really have any special antitrust protection. Unlike MLB, there is no special exemption for the NCAA. However, the NCAA has relied for decades on "amateurism" for the product it sells. So in an antitrust analysis, the NCAA wants courts to apply the antitrust laws in a way that maintains amateurism in college sports because without that, the NCAA says, it has no product, or at least not a competitive one. The big problem for the NCAA is that the courts have been pretty hostile to that view. Antitrust laws are all about economic analysis, and the analysis for amateurism as a product doesn't work very well.
An excellent survey.

rolltidefan

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #68 on: September 11, 2019, 12:09:30 PM »
How was your stay at Holiday Inn? :)

So a couple of things: states can certainly regulate commerce within their borders, but there could be an argument that California's actions interfere with the federal regulation of interstate commerce. Haven't put a lot of thought into that, but I think it's a stretch. There isn't a lot of direct federal regulation over the NCAA; it's a private organization operating primarily pursuant to its own rules. The NCAA could argue that this somehow infringes on distribution of Title IX funds, but, again, a stretch.

The NCAA doesn't really have any special antitrust protection. Unlike MLB, there is no special exemption for the NCAA. However, the NCAA has relied for decades on "amateurism" for the product it sells. So in an antitrust analysis, the NCAA wants courts to apply the antitrust laws in a way that maintains amateurism in college sports because without that, the NCAA says, it has no product, or at least not a competitive one. The big problem for the NCAA is that the courts have been pretty hostile to that view. Antitrust laws are all about economic analysis, and the analysis for amateurism as a product doesn't work very well.
it was rough. my hair is all messed up, didn't sleep well, really effecting my posting and memory and, clearly, my understanding of the law. :)

thanks, btw. i read, apparently incorrectly, that the ncaa was in same boat as mlb/nfl in regards to antitrust... stuff.

i not inherently against the law, i'm just not sure it's the best course of action. it will be interesting, either way, to see where this lead cfb.

rolltidefan

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2019, 12:15:09 PM »
link to ncaa response

The NCAA Board of Governors sent a letter Wednesday to California Gov. Gavin Newsom, making clear its belief that this bill would wipe out the distinction between college and professional athletics and eliminate the element of fairness that supports all of college sports.

 

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