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Topic: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation

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utee94

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2019, 02:40:34 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous Coward on September 11, 2019, 11:28:49 AM
I think you are making the mistake of assuming that (whether it's boosters or coaches) all of the richest schools are cheating (and/or cheating equally). If that were not true (if there are rich schools that aren't yet cheating as well as rich schools that are cheating to lesser degrees), then opening the market (and allowing the non-cheaters and lesser cheaters to come out of the woodwork) will be disproportionately favorable for them relative to the rich schools that were formerly cheating most. Because the biggest rich cheaters were previously accessing the largest chunk of their true "pay players" potential, they will be at a relative disadvantage in this new environment. They may well still grow in payer payments, just not as much as elsewhere.

And I think you're making the mistake of believing that there aren't a LOT of wealthy cheaters already.  They're more than willing to help this along. The "relative" disadvantage from current state to future state will be slight because they still have the deep pockets, and the reduced friction in the system will become a tremendous advantage to the wealthy cheaters.  They'll no longer have to lie with the dogs and get fleas.  That will make a lot of the coaches that currently know their boosters are cheating, but can't do anything to control them, quite happy.


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Anonymous Coward

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #71 on: September 11, 2019, 02:54:35 PM »
There are a LOT. I'm not ignoring that. But that world is NOT flat. I'm specifying that there are bagman disparities. That not everyone is cheating to their full potential**. And if there are any disparities among these programs (in terms of living up to their true potential to pay players), then the ones living up to their true potential now (in paying players) will be fractionally disadvantaged when, in the future, the rules change and they can't "extra-activate" their paying players as much as everyone else. They'll prove to have been some fraction closer to topping out than everyone else. That means player payments across CFB will grow globally, including growth in what are now the cheating hotbeds, but that growth in today's cheating hotbeds will be less than the growth in areas where today's cheating is any amount less than maximal.

**(bagman actual divided by bagman potential multipled by 100%)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 03:04:33 PM by Anonymous Coward »
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #72 on: September 11, 2019, 03:04:42 PM »
Maybe I can pull off a tortured analogy. After World War II, the american manufacturing economy dominated worldwide largely because wartime bombings lessened manufacturing capabilities on every continent spare ours. That was a massive temporary advantage in the same way that the #1 bagmanners in CFB now have a temporary advantage, but will cease to have this much of an advantage when the world around them more fully steps up to the plate. To take this tortured analogy even further, we might acknowledge that some of those other European/Asian nations still had factories but not as many as was their true potential after WWII. Likewise, the US -- despite not being decimated -- could still build even more factories than they started with. But what we care about is fractional growth. The US's fraction (of new factories) was smaller than that of Europe and Asia, which is a relative disadvantage for the US now as compared to its advantage in the immediate-post-WWII environment.

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utee94

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #73 on: September 11, 2019, 03:07:06 PM »
No, I know what you're saying, and I don't really disagree.

I just think it's going to be WORTH IT to the cheaters to give up some small margin of advantage.  Currently they're always walking the tightrope of ethics and results.  Especially some of the coaches and administrators that are basically good people, but know EXACTLY what their boosters are doing.  And believe me, they all know EXACTLY what their boosters are doing.

These schools are always on the ragged edge of being caught and doing permanent damage to their reputation.  They're going to be happy to move those payments above board.  The boosters are going to be happy to do it.  The legislators in those states are already in the pockets of those boosters and will go along with it because that's what they're paid to do.

This isn't the only reason that states/schools are going to want to push for similar laws or at least posture like they are, to break the NCAA's power.  But it's definitely A reason, and a pretty widespread one.

Look at it another way, even if the cheaters didn't want to put all the payments over the table, if other schools are going to be doing it completely legally, then they can't afford to get behind and still be forced to do it illegally.  Laws allowing player payment will effectively become table stakes just to continue playing the game of FBS college football.  
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EastAthens

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #74 on: September 11, 2019, 03:18:52 PM »
Quote from: utee94 on September 11, 2019, 03:07:06 PM
No, I know what you're saying, and I don't really disagree.

I just think it's going to be WORTH IT to the cheaters to give up some small margin of advantage.  Currently they're always walking the tightrope of ethics and results.  Especially some of the coaches and administrators that are basically good people, but know EXACTLY what their boosters are doing.  And believe me, they all know EXACTLY what their boosters are doing.


Mark Richt said once, sort of wistfully, that if he change one thing about his job at UGA, it would be to have more control over the boosters.
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #75 on: September 11, 2019, 03:23:34 PM »
Ah, maybe we understood each other all along, utee. Because I don't disagree with you, either. At least not in direction. As far as the extent of things, however, I do think that the following developments have removed a lot of cheating risk from major football programs:


  • last decade of NCAA investigations has empowered the approach of deny-deny, don't-cooperate-don't-cooperate; large programs who take that tack (when under investigation) have rarely been sanctioned
  • the public perception of paying players has significantly changed into a moral issue; even many of those fans who hate the breaking of rules are now qualifying that anti-player payment rules are somewhere between dumb and bad for the sport

The first makes getting caught less likely as well as punishment (even when caught!) less likely. And the second makes people less judgy about the cheating.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 04:07:33 PM by Anonymous Coward »
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utee94

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #76 on: September 11, 2019, 03:53:53 PM »
Awesome!  Now that we have THAT resolved, let's move on to the issue of soccer-style flopping and faking injuries in college football... :)
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CWSooner

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #77 on: September 11, 2019, 08:09:37 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous Coward on September 11, 2019, 03:04:42 PM
Maybe I can pull off a tortured analogy. After World War II, the american manufacturing economy dominated worldwide largely because wartime bombings lessened manufacturing capabilities on every continent spare ours. That was a massive temporary advantage in the same way that the #1 bagmanners in CFB now have a temporary advantage, but will cease to have this much of an advantage when the world around them more fully steps up to the plate. To take this tortured analogy even further, we might acknowledge that some of those other European/Asian nations still had factories but not as many as was their true potential after WWII. Likewise, the US -- despite not being decimated -- could still build even more factories than they started with. But what we care about is fractional growth. The US's fraction (of new factories) was smaller than that of Europe and Asia, which is a relative disadvantage for the US now as compared to its advantage in the immediate-post-WWII environment.
I don't know enough about the world of CFB financial cheating to say if your analogy is any good or not, but that is a very nice capsule summary of our manufacturing supremacy for the first 15 or so years after WWII compared to the highly competitive environment we face now.

:13:
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FearlessF

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #78 on: September 11, 2019, 08:51:23 PM »
Quote from: utee94 on September 11, 2019, 03:53:53 PM
Awesome!  Now that we have THAT resolved, let's move on to the issue of soccer-style flopping and faking injuries in college football... :)

perhaps soccer should clean this up
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utee94

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #79 on: September 11, 2019, 09:20:05 PM »
Quote from: FearlessF on September 11, 2019, 08:51:23 PM
perhaps soccer should clean this up

Perhaps they should, but since I care a lot more about American football than I do about South American soccer, I'd say we have our own mess to worry about.
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SFBadger96

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2019, 11:59:17 AM »
"Simulation" is already supposed to earn a caution (yellow). The problem is it's really hard to tell at game speed what is simulation, and what isn't. Not in all cases-there are instances that are obvious, but more often than not two players are in close proximity, one goes down in a way that is entirely consistent with contact (whether illegal or not), and, ps, running at full speed and having your foot, ankle, or shin kicked or stepped on hurts...a lot. Even if it doesn't cause lasting injury.

There's also a question of what is "simulation" (i.e., there was no contact/foul) and embellishment (as one coach I've heard called it, "helping the referee see the foul").

The Alex Morgan PK against the Netherlands is a good example. A lot of people complained that Morgan was simulating, but on VAR there was enough contact to warrant awarding the foul. And the bruise on her arm showed that she really was drilled on that play.

All that said, the cautions for simulation should come more often than they do. That would help.

PS Morgan "simulates" and embellishes more than most women players.
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utee94

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2019, 12:24:35 PM »
Alex Morgan may simulate and embellish anything she likes.  I'll allow it.
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ELA

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2019, 02:55:24 PM »
Quote from: utee94 on September 11, 2019, 03:53:53 PM
Awesome!  Now that we have THAT resolved, let's move on to the issue of soccer-style flopping and faking injuries in college football... :)

Way worse in basketball
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utee94

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Re: California Asembly passed bill to allow players likeness compensation
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2019, 04:01:14 PM »
Yeah I also don't care about basketball, so no worries there.
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