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Topic: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread

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bayareabadger

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2023, 05:32:26 PM »
Yes, but having consistently large recruiting classes means you're replacing guys that leave the program early. If that's due to them leaving for the NBA, it's evidence you're getting talent.

Purdue and Wisconsin are recruiting four year players (sometimes 5 with redshirts), because they can't regularly get one and done or two and done guys.

Their smaller classes are then a symptom of less talent in general.
On the one hand, this is somewhat true.

On the other, that No. 108 class was 100 percent eventual consensus All-Americans.

Purdue’s case is odd. Defense has occasionally been an issue. March is also weird and cruel. Thematically it hasn’t been any one thing, though is suppose you could just say it’s a case of too much regular season overachieving. But then again, teams worse get to the last weekend most years.

boilerbanger

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2023, 08:08:04 PM »
I am not down with the player rankings issue.  I think there are issues in general with player rankings and I don't think one and done is the answer either.  I think more athleticism and length is needed around our shooters, need someone who can go get a bucket or penetrate the lane with consistency and be a good defender.  Hopefully Colvin will bring some of this next year.

ELA

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2023, 09:33:26 PM »
I also think, as efficient as Edey was, how did he only take 11 shots?  FDU sold out to double him.  He passes well out of the double team, and Purdue just missed a ton of open 3s.

Yes, part of Izzo's tournament success is due to him being willing to lose games to find working combinations, but it's not like Purdue didn't know how to handle a defense selling out on Edey.  They just missed a TON of shots.

Now, what might be on Painter's system is that he needs to just recruit shooters.  He has an eye for big men, and can clearly develop them.  So while Ivey was an elite player, he might be a less useful compliment than just a pure 3 and D guy.  Maybe he needs to abandon recruiting athletic wings or true point guards, and just find 3 and D guys.  Guys who can just hang around the line, and make teams pay for doubling down on his elite bigs.

boilerbanger

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2023, 08:27:57 AM »
I also think, as efficient as Edey was, how did he only take 11 shots?  FDU sold out to double him.  He passes well out of the double team, and Purdue just missed a ton of open 3s.

Yes, part of Izzo's tournament success is due to him being willing to lose games to find working combinations, but it's not like Purdue didn't know how to handle a defense selling out on Edey.  They just missed a TON of shots.

Now, what might be on Painter's system is that he needs to just recruit shooters.  He has an eye for big men, and can clearly develop them.  So while Ivey was an elite player, he might be a less useful compliment than just a pure 3 and D guy.  Maybe he needs to abandon recruiting athletic wings or true point guards, and just find 3 and D guys.  Guys who can just hang around the line, and make teams pay for doubling down on his elite bigs.
Fair point, his philosophy as I understand has been to recruit more shooters, unfortunately those shooters weren't making shots at the clip they are capable of this past year.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2023, 10:55:29 AM »
I honestly don't mean this as a dig at Purdue and the FDU upset was bad regardless but does anyone else feel like Purdue this year wasn't quite up to typical #1 seed standards?

I don't mean that they didn't "deserve" a #1 seed. Everything I saw/read at the time indicated that they were one of the top four teams this year. What I'm getting at is the "this year" part of that statement. Some years there are five or six teams playing at the level of a typical #1 seed and one or two of them get relegated to #2 and other years there are only two or three teams playing at the level of a typical #1 seed so the last spot or two gets filled with a team that maybe isn't quite as good as a typical #1 seed.

FearlessF

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #47 on: March 31, 2023, 11:21:22 AM »
probably not

just because of the way they finished the season
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2023, 11:26:40 AM »
Related to my above post questioning whether or not Purdue was as good as a typical #1 seed, here are some past #1 seeds from the B1G and their league records that year:

  • 2023 Purdue, 15-5
  • 2021 Michigan, 14-3
  • 2021 Illinois, 16-4
  • 2015 Wisconsin, 16-2
  • 2013 Indiana, 14-4
  • 2012 Michigan State, 13-5
  • 2011 Ohio State, 16-2
  • 2007 Ohio State, 15-1
  • 2005 Illinois, 15-1
  • 2001 Illinois, 13-3
  • 2001 Michigan State, 13-3
  • 2000 Michigan State, 13-3
  • 1999 Michigan State, 15-1
  • 1997 Minnesota, 16-2
  • 1996 Purdue, 15-3
  • 1994 Purdue, 14-4
  • 1993 Michigan, 15-3
  • 1993 Indiana, 17-1
  • 1992 Ohio State, 15-3
  • 1991 Ohio State, 15-3
  • 1990 Michigan State, 15-3
  • 1989 Illinois, 14-4
  • 1988 Purdue, 16-2
  • 1987 Indiana, 15-3
  • 1985 Michigan, 16-2
Eyeballing it, it looks like Purdue was only the second team from our league to have five conference losses and draw a #1 seed. There are a few with four but most have three or less. Even adjusting for differing numbers of games played, 15-3>15-5, obviously. 


To be fair to Purdue, I'm not sure how to rate the B1G for 2023. In terms of really good, elite teams I think it was weaker than normal. OTOH, in terms of easy games I think it was tougher than normal because only Minnesota was just plain bad. Ohio State finished second-to-last but the computers all had them much better than that which I think is an indication that they could and sometimes did play quality BB. That, IMHO, made the 2022/2023 B1G a really tough grind because, for Purdue, there were 12 teams capable of beating them.

boilerbanger

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2023, 01:18:10 PM »
I honestly don't mean this as a dig at Purdue and the FDU upset was bad regardless but does anyone else feel like Purdue this year wasn't quite up to typical #1 seed standards?

I don't mean that they didn't "deserve" a #1 seed. Everything I saw/read at the time indicated that they were one of the top four teams this year. What I'm getting at is the "this year" part of that statement. Some years there are five or six teams playing at the level of a typical #1 seed and one or two of them get relegated to #2 and other years there are only two or three teams playing at the level of a typical #1 seed so the last spot or two gets filled with a team that maybe isn't quite as good as a typical #1 seed.
Not a dig at all, I think this has merit.  This team won, but didn't dominate people like you would have expected given their #1 ranking for a time.  If Edey comes back next year, we make more 3's and limit turnovers, I love our chances.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2023, 02:25:51 PM »
Not a dig at all, I think this has merit.  This team won, but didn't dominate people like you would have expected given their #1 ranking for a time.  If Edey comes back next year, we make more 3's and limit turnovers, I love our chances.
This theory is kinda proven incorrect by the example I'm going to use but I've always thought, as a fan, that the teams with the best chance in March are the teams that have multiple ways to win.  

My favorite Ohio State team in my memory was not the 2007 National runner up, or any of the several other F4 teams that I've experienced as a fan.  The Ohio State team that I think would have the best chance to win it all if you replayed the tournament from their year was the 2011 team.  

They lost in the S16 but finished 34-3 overall.  Going into the Tournament that year I really thought that would be "our" year because they could hurt you from everywhere.  If you look at ESPN's season schedule for a team it shows by columns:
  • Date
  • Opponent
  • W/L and score
  • Cumulative record and conference record after that game
  • High scorer for the team you are looking at.  
If you go look at 2023 Purdue, that fifth column is almost always Edey.  He is REALLY good, but Purdue just didn't have much behind him.  For that reason, I didn't think that Purdue had a very serious shot at the NC this year.  I, of course, thought they'd get beyond the first game and probably out of the first weekend but that was about all I expected.  

If you look at that 2011 Ohio State team, just in their last six games (3 BTT, 3 NCAA Tournament) they had four different leading scorers:
  • Sullinger in the BTT opening win over NU and the NCAA loss to KY
  • Buford in the BTTCG win over PSU and the NCAA opener over UTSA
  • Diebler in the BTT semi-final win over M
  • Lighty in the NCAA second-round win over Geroge Mason
That wasn't unusual for that team.  If you just look down that column it is pretty much a different leading scorer each night including at least once each by:
  • Sullinger
  • Buford
  • Diebler
  • Lighty
  • Thomas
That presented opponents with basically a "pick-your-poison" situation:
  • Clamp down inside on Sullinger, get lit up from behind the arc by Diebler.  
  • Clamp down inside on Sullinger and double Diebler, get lit up by Buford.  
  • Somehow keep Sullinger, Diebler, and Buford in check, get lit up by Thomas.  
  • Somehow keep Sullinger, Diebler, Buford, and Thomas in check, get lit up by Lighty.  

Even though they "only" made it to the S16, I think that is the closest Ohio State has been to an NC in my memory.  The 2007 team made it to the NCG but I think you'd have to play that CG a lot of times before Ohio State managed to take one from Florida.  They also made a couple other F4's in my memory but I felt like those teams overachieved to get there and probably wouldn't actually win no matter how many times you replayed the Tournament.  Instead, in a replay they probably wouldn't make the final weekend.  The 1992 #1 seed that lost to a EXTREMELY highly paid Michigan team in the E8 is possibly the next best.  

The 2011 team:
The two regular season losses were both in mid-February, on the road, and they were against the next two best teams in the league that year (Wisconsin and Purdue).  The Wisconsin loss was by four points to a Wisconsin team ranked #13 in the Kohl Center.  The Purdue loss wasn't as close, 13 points, but in tOSU's defense they obliterated Purdue in Columbus that year, 87-64 and Purdue was also in the top-13 both times that Ohio State played them.  

The Kentucky loss was just one of those days.  Buford had an incredibly cold shooting night, Sullinger shot 50% but that isn't all that good for a guy who mostly shoots layups and dunks, Craft and Thomas were a combined 0-6 from the floor for two points in a combined 39 minutes.  Lighty and Diebler were "ok" but not great.  In spite of playing THAT poorly, at the buzzer the Buckeyes had a shot in the air that would have won the game had it gone in.  It didn't and that was that.  

They had played phenomenally well in their first two NCAA games with ~30 point wins over UTSA and GMU.  In retrospect, I sure wish they'd had their "off night" against one of those two.  They'd have won anyway.  Oh well.  

None of the above is to take anything away from Kentucky.  The Wildcats were very good that year.  I thought they were underseeded at #4 and they made the F4.  Certainly their defensive efforts contributed to Ohio State's difficulties.  


Relative to Purdue, all that is to say that I agree with you, if Painter can get better production around his Big Man, I think they can go far.  At one point earlier this season when Ohio State was playing like crap and Purdue was the run-away leader, @ELA said that if you took Edey away from Purdue, he'd pick Ohio State over Purdue comfortably.  I think his point was correct.  Purdue this year was Edey and . . .  Well not much.  You generally aren't getting far in the Tournament that way because eventually you'll run into someone who can take that away and you need to have a "Plan B".  

ELA

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2023, 03:38:10 PM »
Hunter Dickinson in the transfer portal

847badgerfan

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #52 on: March 31, 2023, 04:15:10 PM »
Hunter Dickinson in the transfer portal
Who's gonna touch that POS?
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

bayareabadger

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2023, 01:08:06 AM »
Wisconsin could bring back basically everyone, so we'll go with a mix of what they need to improve/what a guy could bring. 

PG - Hepburn: Hit layups, create like a good perimeter option, get to the mid-70s, low 80s on free throws
SG - Klesmit: Basically does what I want now, but needs to improve finishing and free throws. Was a few ticks from very nice efficiency 
Other SG - Essegian: Get bigger so defense isn't awful, improve stamina to avoid late-season slum (21.5 percent from 3) 
PF - Wahl - Rediscover ability to finish, hopefully have to do less because three other guys can do more
C - Crowl - Hit jumpers/free throws like he can, draw more fouls and avoid those stretches of just missing everything at the cup. 

Bench
Jordan Davis - Already gone
Carter Gilmore - I need him to be able to hit jumpers. Wide open ones. At an OK rate. Apparently he can shoot in practice
McGee - Connect on some shots. He just wasn't accurate enough
Ilver - Get stronger? I think he could be a nice stretch option, but he needs to be able to hang defensively to get in the flow
Hodges - Probably close to gone

The freshmen are interesting
Nolan Winter - Stretch big, ideally he could be the backup center over a transfer
Gus Yalden - A bit shorter and squatter, but a good rebounder and offensive play-maker. Defense will tell if he can get in the mix behind Crowl and Wahl
John Blackwell - Not sure what to make of him. Doesn't seem good enough to take on some primary ball-handling duties, but this team has two good off-guard types, so another wing who comes in will likely be a bit on the taller side. Real wait and see spot.

And then we wait on transfers. 

boilerbanger

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2023, 02:59:34 PM »
Who's gonna touch that POS?
It will be interesting ... lot of talk around Caleb Love from NC as well ... my thought is you can have him.  Ball dominant guard who is an inconsistent shooter and doesn't make great decisions and I would be cautious about chemistry as well after seeing NC crap the bed this year with significant talent (on paper)

boilerbanger

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Re: 2023-2024 B1G Basketball Thread
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2023, 03:03:55 PM »
Colvin and Carr (PU vs MSU) battled it out in the finals of the slam dunk championship with Carr pulling out the W.  Exciting to see the BIG having some athletes coming in.

 

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