header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Misfits Thread

 (Read 397815 times)

Kris60

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 2514
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7112 on: August 27, 2020, 12:57:31 PM »
How in the hell should I know?  Neither of us knows, but why am I the only one asking the question?
Great question. Why are you the only one asking that question?  The answer probably isn’t a compliment to you.


847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25029
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7113 on: August 27, 2020, 12:58:09 PM »
You're bypassing the "why" behind him not complying with police.  That's what I've been saying.  Your crowd doesn't care about the 'why'. 
The knife was in his pocket, and when he managed to pull it is the exact time the two cops jumped off of him. You can see that in the unedited video I posted pages ago.

It's when ran around the front of the car and said he was getting a gun that the cops drew their weapons.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25029
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7114 on: August 27, 2020, 12:59:28 PM »
Lol. I’d love to see your meltdown the first time a cop hogtied a black person.
Uh.. yeah. A rope and a black person. Fredo would go ape shit.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25029
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7115 on: August 27, 2020, 01:03:36 PM »
Come on, buddy. What centuries-long oppression of white people do you refer to? Please enlighten me. Don't give me the "Irish" or "Polish" line--that's not because of the color of their skin. Nor was it widespread, actual chattel slavery, 3/5, one-drop, Dred Scott, Jim Crow, lynching, redlining, restrictive covenants, etc., etc., etc.

And you're saying segregation and suppression of whom started by the Roosevelt administration? White people? Black people? Surely you're not arguing that the systemic, and government sponsored suppression of black people started with either Roosevelt administration.

Are you arguing that redlining was systemic oppression of white people because it denied black people entrance to white neighborhoods? That's a novel approach.
I'd much rather you comment on my third point than my first two, but hey.

When did the projects start to get built in the big (D) cities?


In 1933, faced with a housing shortage, the federal government began a program explicitly designed to increase — and segregate — America's housing stock. Author Richard Rothstein says the housing programs begun under the New Deal were tantamount to a "state-sponsored system of segregation."


https://www.npr.org/2017/05/03/526655831/a-forgotten-history-of-how-the-u-s-government-segregated-america#:~:text=In%201933%2C%20faced%20with%20a%20housing%20shortage%2C%20the,were%20tantamount%20to%20a%20%22state-sponsored%20system%20of%20segregation.%22



U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

NorthernOhioBuckeye

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1098
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7116 on: August 27, 2020, 01:20:25 PM »
You're bypassing the "why" behind him not complying with police.  That's what I've been saying.  Your crowd doesn't care about the 'why'. 
It doesn't matter "why" he resisted, the fact is that he did. If he was in the right, comply with the officers and let a judge hear your case. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

However, the obvious "why" he resisted is that he was facing felony charges and didn't want to wind up in prison for a number of years. That does NOT justify resisting arrest. 

SFBadger96

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1243
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7117 on: August 27, 2020, 01:22:15 PM »
You want me to agree that historically the Democratic party was the party of slave holders, segregationists, and racists? Done. I agree. And the housing laws and rules put in place in by the FDR administration were insidious, wrong, and have had horrible, lasting consequences.

How do you feel about Lee Atwater and the Southern Strategy?

Which party championed and passed the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act, and in so doing, "lost the south for a generation?"

Which party desegregated the military?

Which party reacted to the 2013 Supreme Court decision invalidating Congress's continued finding of a need for pre-approval of voting law changes by instituting voting restrictions to "impose cures for problems that did not exist" which "target[ed] African Americans with almost surgical precision?" That wasn't 90 years ago, that was this decade.

Which party's leaders and spokespeople complained that President Obama was trying to give free stuff to black people?

Which party's leaders consistently target Black Lives Matter protesters rather than opening up a real dialogue about how we might address centuries of harm?

Now I'll give you a tougher one, because, it's an example of how difficult and nuanced the solutions to these problems can be.
Which party adopted "school choice" as a major party platform in the 1970s as a way to allow white parents to use public dollars to send their kids to segregated, private schools? How is that complicated? Because school choice, when it is used to address inequality--rather than reinforce racism--is a complicated issue. In some instances it provides real opportunity for traditionally disadvantaged groups that are not immediately available; at the same time, it often starves the remaining people--those who don't get that opportunity--of precious resources. This is a difficult issue; there is some good school choice; and there is some bad.

To address your point, yes education matters, a great deal, though education alone isn't a magic fix.

That gets to my fundamental view of these things: there is no simple solution. People who admit there is a real problem with systemic racism in this country will not immediately solve it. And well-meaning people who are trying to find solutions will make mistakes--and even good solutions will never be perfect for every situation. But it all has to start with admitting there is a problem; and part of admitting there is a problem is not blaming Black Lives Matter for highlighting the problem, but instead accepting that there is a very real, very current reason people are so angry.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71095
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7118 on: August 27, 2020, 01:27:54 PM »
The voting rights bill was passed in the U.S. Senate by a 77-19 vote on May 26, 1965. After debating the bill for more than a month, the U.S. House of Representatives passed the bill by a vote of 333-85 on July 9.

Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act into law on August 6, 1965, with Martin Luther King Jr. and other civil rights leaders present at the ceremony.

This vote was related to S. 1564 (89th): An Act to enforce the 15th amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

Two Republicans voted NAY.  Seventeen Democrats voted NAY.  The Democrats, of that era, who voted no were Dixiecrats in effect.

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25029
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7119 on: August 27, 2020, 01:29:43 PM »
The first step in any possible solution is to build trust, and that is a two way street.

The policies of the past 90-100 years have failed. No more programs. No more speeches. 

We need action, and it starts in the communities. All of our communities.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

NorthernOhioBuckeye

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1098
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7120 on: August 27, 2020, 01:32:05 PM »
1) Agreed.

2) What this has to do with racism is the familiarity the black community has with being on the wrong side of police violence, and the systemic problems that put them there. Maybe this was a justified shooting (we're still waiting on that), but it is endemic of a problem that a large part of this country wants to pretend doesn't exist. Racism, and its effects on this society, did not end in 1965, or even when George Wallace agreed that maybe segregation wasn't the right way of handling things.

The solutions to these deeply ingrained problems aren't easy, but they also aren't simply throwing our hands up and pretending they don't exist. Nor are they state legislatures explicitly saying that the reason they are enacting voting "reform" is to deny black people votes (as the appeals court held regarding North Carolina's legislature in this decade, they "target African Americans with almost surgical precision.")

That's what drives Black Lives Matter protests. When people stop responding with "All Lives Matter" without being willing to agree that "All" necessarily includes "Black," there will be fewer protests.

This is just about the criminal justice system, but it's a useful start:
https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/un-report-on-racial-disparities/

As a thought experiment, imagine two farms that share a river as a water source and grow the same crops. The upstream farmer intentionally pollutes the river as it leaves his property because he knows it will flow downstream and damage his neighbor's crops. This allows him to sell his crops at a higher price because his are beautiful, whereas his neighbors are poor. He does this for decades. When the downstream farmer realizes that for decades his fields have been wrecked by the upstream farmer's intentional conduct, he takes that farmer to court. The upstream farmer learns of the lawsuit and stops the intentional pollution. Over the course of those decades the upstream farmer has gotten rich, while the downstream farmer has barely managed to scrape by. The upstream farmer has gotten rich, reinvested in equipment, expanded his farm, and grown a small empire where his product is known as the gold standard, while the downstream farmer has lived season to season barely getting by, had to sell most of his assets, is deeply indebted to the bank, and has a long reputation for poor quality. But the intentional pollution has now stopped, so we're all good, right?
I am not arguing your point. However, I am talking specifically about the incident in Kenosha. At this point and from what we know, the history of discrimination in the United States has absolutely NOTHING to do with the action of either party in this incident. To assume that it does is mere conjecture on your part and a bit of racial bias being impugned on the officers involved.

There is ZERO public evidence to suggest that this shooting had ANYTHING to do with race, yet here you are, trying to give a history of race relations in the country as if they have anything to do with this single event.  

All I am suggesting is that we suspend assigning blame or motives to either party until the facts are in. Could this have been racial? Maybe, but I have seen nothing to indicate that is was. Could this shooting be justified? I don't know, perhaps it can. From the little video that I have seen, it does not look good, but I have not seen all of the evidence. 

But what I can say is that if the man that was shot had complied with the LEO's instructions, most likely, he would not have been shot. While I cannot state that with any degree of certainty, I can assume that there would have been no other reason for the police to draw their weapons. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71095
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7121 on: August 27, 2020, 01:35:10 PM »
One issue as has been noted is statistical.  We have however many "confrontations" between police and the public.  Some of them are going to go bad.  Some of the bad ones may be white LEOs and white suspects or black LEOs and white suspects, but those don't merit news coverage.  One "event" here in Atlanta was black cops apparently mistreating two black students in a car.

Then you have statistically some where you have white LEOs and black suspects, and those get highlighted.  So long as those continue to be "the news" and nothing else, perspective gets lost.

SFBadger96

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1243
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7122 on: August 27, 2020, 01:36:13 PM »
Indeed; and it was Democratic senators from West Virginia, Georgia, and South Carolina (and a Republican from Texas) that led the filibuster against the Civil Rights Act--though it was a Texan Democrat who pushed the legislature to pass it, and who signed it into law, which ushered in the fundamental political realignment that Johnson feared.

NorthernOhioBuckeye

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1098
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7123 on: August 27, 2020, 01:41:48 PM »
The first step in any possible solution is to build trust, and that is a two way street.

The policies of the past 90-100 years have failed. No more programs. No more speeches.

We need action, and it starts in the communities. All of our communities.
I honestly believe one of the major reasons for the problems in the inner cities is due to the war on poverty by the LBJ administration in the 1960's. While it was meant to help people to escape poverty, all it did was to make poverty more comfortable and rewarded single parent homes. Children of single parent homes grew up in a system that never gave much incentive to leave it. 

When government offers to help, my suggestion is to run the other way. They continually screw things up and then try to fix their screws up by doubling down on the problem which makes things even worse. 

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 25029
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7124 on: August 27, 2020, 01:43:08 PM »
There is good news from last night. Lots of arrests (Marshalls aren't playing) and lots of the true activists condemning the paid rioters and asking them to leave.

This is from one of the peaceful organizers, and what I love to hear. They even had a cookout in the afternoon for all to attend (I almost went, but we needed to move on):

“This is what it’s going to be, if you’re here after curfew, we’re not going to have anything to do with you,” she said. “Point blank. Period. So, if you’re out here after curfew, that is on you with those on. They’re not associated with us.

“If you’re out here after curfew, you are not associated with us. This is what we do. Peaceful stuff,” she said. “We get out here hang out together and be peaceful and demand justice. So, if you want to remain safe, we’re asking you all, please we’re asking you all we don’t want to have what we had last night.”

...

“Whoever stays out here, you’ll learn the difference,” she said. “There are two different types of people.”

She called for an end to the violence.


“That ends today. Either you’re here to be peaceful and do that for the cause and do what’s right or just don’t come because we’ve got to rebuild this. We live here, you guys get to go home to a pretty little city,” she said to the throng of media that approached her after the rally. “We’ve got to wake up to this now." 

U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7125 on: August 27, 2020, 01:43:34 PM »
If these shooting victims were properly restrained by police initially, none of them die.  (Floyd may have died later of an OD.)

Maybe police need better hand to hand training.
It's more difficult for the average cop to engage in hand-to-hand fighting with the average resister these days.  For one thing, cops carry a lot heavier load than they used to, more ammo, more comm gear, often including flak vests, so they are relatively slow and cumbersome compared to the guys they are trying to catch and arrest.
There are increasingly more female cops, and on average they are smaller and weaker than the males.  And they too are encumbered by the additional baggage that cops now carry.  I believe that I have seen some seemingly reliable studies showing that female cops are more likely to escalate a confrontation into a shootout.  Also, too bad about the facts of biology, females generally have less authoritative/intimidating voices than males do.
But, yeah, they do seem rather unversed in h-to-h tactics and techniques.  I've wondered why those Kenosha cops didn't just tackle that guy instead of letting him walk toward his car.
Play Like a Champion Today

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.