header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Misfits Thread

 (Read 402675 times)

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71537
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7126 on: August 27, 2020, 01:47:40 PM »
Valid points.

We have two highly public shooting events where the suspect evaded two police officers and ended up being shot.

NorthernOhioBuckeye

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1101
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7127 on: August 27, 2020, 01:48:49 PM »
It's more difficult for the average cop to engage in hand-to-hand fighting with the average resister these days.  For one thing, cops carry a lot heavier load than they used to, more ammo, more comm gear, often including flak vests, so they are relatively slow and cumbersome compared to the guys they are trying to catch and arrest.
There are increasingly more female cops, and on average they are smaller and weaker than the males.  And they too are encumbered by the additional baggage that cops now carry.  I believe that I have seen some seemingly reliable studies showing that female cops are more likely to escalate a confrontation into a shootout.  Also, too bad about the facts of biology, females generally have less authoritative/intimidating voices than males do.
But, yeah, they do seem rather unversed in h-to-h tactics and techniques.  I've wondered why those Kenosha cops didn't just tackle that guy instead of letting him walk toward his car.
If he had a knife in his hand (which I believe someone in the thread indicated), they most likely didn't want to be stabbed when they hit the ground by a guy holding a knife. But again, I can only give my reasoning. I have no idea what those officers thoughts were. 

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7128 on: August 27, 2020, 01:49:15 PM »
But in both cases, the shooting of the suspect appears to be motivated by a fear for their lives by the LEO and not due to "systemic racism". It is only made an issue of race by those with an agenda.
Many times, it's bad policing that has let a strong discussion escalate to the cop fearing for his/her life.
Just as the rioting in Kenosha should have been nipped in the bud, so should an escalating confrontation between cop and suspect.  Better police techniques could end some/many of these altercations that end up with the suspects being shot.
Play Like a Champion Today

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12186
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7129 on: August 27, 2020, 01:50:59 PM »
That gets to my fundamental view of these things: there is no simple solution. People who admit there is a real problem with systemic racism in this country will not immediately solve it. And well-meaning people who are trying to find solutions will make mistakes--and even good solutions will never be perfect for every situation. But it all has to start with admitting there is a problem; and part of admitting there is a problem is not blaming Black Lives Matter for highlighting the problem, but instead accepting that there is a very real, very current reason people are so angry.
Well said. 

I'd also highlight that the focus on the riots is in many ways a deflection. If we focus on the bad reaction, we don't have to address that there are serious and fundamentally unjust things going on in society that spurred all this anger. 

Those of us who point to these root causes are accused of supporting or at least excusing the riots, vandalism, and other bad behavior. That's not the case. Rioting and vandalism are wrong. But I can condemn riots and vandalism as wrong while focusing on the fact that the long-standing systemic racism that is causing the anger needs to be addressed. They're not mutually exclusive.

SFBadger96

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1243
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7130 on: August 27, 2020, 01:53:29 PM »
There is ZERO public evidence to suggest that this shooting had ANYTHING to do with race, yet here you are, trying to give a history of race relations in the country as if they have anything to do with this single event. 

All I am suggesting is that we suspend assigning blame or motives to either party until the facts are in. Could this have been racial? Maybe, but I have seen nothing to indicate that is was. Could this shooting be justified? I don't know, perhaps it can. From the little video that I have seen, it does not look good, but I have not seen all of the evidence.

But what I can say is that if the man that was shot had complied with the LEO's instructions, most likely, he would not have been shot. While I cannot state that with any degree of certainty, I can assume that there would have been no other reason for the police to draw their weapons.

There is plenty of evidence that the disparities in outcomes between black and white people in the country is race-based. So much so that the point is essentially irrefutable in honest discourse. 

The point about systemic racism isn't that in any one situation an overtly racist person commits a racist act (though in the George Floyd example a likely explanation is a person who isn't actively racist, but probably at least unconsciously so, committed a racist act). It is that the systemic problems we have not addressed led to a situation where, once again, the outcome is dire for a black person.

As I said (so many) pages back, this doesn't excuse lawbreaking, including resisting arrest, and it doesn't mean we should coddle people who have proven they are a threat to society. It does mean that we need an honest reckoning about race in America so that we can try to address it.

Cincy above noted some programs aimed at addressing historical inequities, like affirmative action. There is this strain of thinking that affirmative action (1) unfairly harmed white people (and men), and (2) that as a result, black people actually have an advantage in today's America (or 1980s/90s America). But for all that chatter, it would be difficult to find a white person who would voluntarily switch with a black person if that included all the other issues a black person faced in his or her life. And the research (and anecdotal evidence) on the black experience in America is that even with race-based quotas or even just preferences, black people continued to face much greater challenges to their success than white people. That doesn't mean white people don't also face challenges--we do. But the mere fact of being black adds significant challenges, even when coupled with affirmative action and programs of the like.

So why are we talking about this here? Rioting is not ok. Destroying people's property--or government property--is not ok. But labeling Black Lives Matter protesters as domestic terrorists because some people (including some white-supremacist agitators) infect their demonstrations feeds into the "everything is ok, there's no racism here" narrative, and attacks their idea--one that is hard to argue with honestly--that black people are still suffering from unfair policies. Responding that "All lives matter" is not ok. When people said "Vegas Strong," or "Boston Strong," the reaction wasn't, "No, America strong."

Earlier Kris, I think, suggested colorblindness. Read my farm example: is everything ok at the end?

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7131 on: August 27, 2020, 01:54:54 PM »
Wanted on a warrant, physically resisted arrest, went for a weapon in his car. All three things led up to the result. Had he complied with the lawful orders of the police, he would not have been shot.
What weapon in his car was he reaching for?  Did the cops see him reaching for a weapon?
Or is that ex post facto speculation folks have created to defend the cops?
I've also seen "he might have had a knife" mentioned?  Did he really have one?  Did the cops see a knife?
If the police officers didn't see a weapon, then all the talk about guns and/or knives is moot.
Play Like a Champion Today

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71537
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7132 on: August 27, 2020, 01:56:37 PM »
https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/wisconsin-doj-reveals-new-details-surrounding-jacob-blakes-shooting-by-kenosha-police/2329213/

[color=rgba(13, 13, 13, 0.9)]"Mr. Blake walked around his vehicle, opened the driver’s side door, and leaned forward," a press release from the department read. "While holding onto Mr. Blake’s shirt, Officer Rusten Sheskey fired his service weapon 7 times. Officer Sheskey fired the weapon into Mr. Blake’s back. No other officer fired their weapon."[/color]
[color=rgba(13, 13, 13, 0.9)]Authorities noted that the Kenosha Police Department does not have body cameras, "therefore the officers were not wearing body cameras."[/color]
[color=rgba(13, 13, 13, 0.9)]According to the release, Blake admitted to investigators that he did have a knife at the time and a knife was recovered from the driver's side floorboard of his vehicle. No other weapons were found, the report said.[/color]



Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71537
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7133 on: August 27, 2020, 01:58:34 PM »
https://www.wdio.com/news/kenosha-officer-identified-knife-found-jacob-blake-vehicle/5840998/#:~:text=Kenosha%20officer%20identified%2C%20investigators%20find%20knife%20in%20Jacob%20Blake%27s%20vehicle,-Updated%3A%20August%2026&text=The%20Department%20of%20Justice%20also,were%20no%20other%20weapons%20found.

The Department of Justice also said Wednesday evening that Blake allegedly admitted he had a knife, and a knife was found on the driver's side floorboard of Blake's vehicle. They say there were no other weapons found. 
A press release said officers tried to tase Blake first, but he did not stop. 
The DOJ says Sheskey was the only one who fired his gun, but all law enforcement involved are cooperating with the investigation. At a Wednesday afternoon press conference, Kenosha Police Chief Dan Miskinis said three officers are on administrative leave.
The Kenosha Police Department does not have body camera equipment. 



SFBadger96

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1243
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7134 on: August 27, 2020, 01:59:11 PM »
Stripped of the rest of my argument:

Imagine two farms that share a river as a water source and grow the same crops. The upstream farmer intentionally pollutes the river as it leaves his property because he knows it will flow downstream and damage his neighbor's crops. This allows him to sell his crops at a higher price because his are beautiful, whereas his neighbors are poor. He does this for decades. When the downstream farmer realizes that for decades his fields have been wrecked by the upstream farmer's intentional conduct, he takes that farmer to court. The upstream farmer learns of the lawsuit and stops the intentional pollution. Over the course of those decades the upstream farmer has gotten rich, while the downstream farmer has barely managed to scrape by. The upstream farmer has gotten rich, reinvested in equipment, expanded his farm, and grown a small empire where his product is known as the gold standard, while the downstream farmer has lived season to season barely getting by, had to sell most of his assets, is deeply indebted to the bank, and has a long reputation for poor quality. But the intentional pollution has now stopped, so we're all good, right?

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71537
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7135 on: August 27, 2020, 02:00:23 PM »
A possible sequence of events after the suspect got up is that he told police he was getting a knife.  The LEO told him not to go to his car and pulled on his shirt in a rather lame attempt to get his attention or deter him, perhaps saying "I will shoot you.".

The man continued and reached for the knife and then was shot.

It's also possible this is not the sequence of course.

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7136 on: August 27, 2020, 02:02:34 PM »
Some wise man once said, "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is not compassion, it is not mercy—it is force."
Play Like a Champion Today

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71537
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7137 on: August 27, 2020, 02:04:24 PM »
I guess that is like how being incarcerated is violence.

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7138 on: August 27, 2020, 02:05:25 PM »
From a cop out of another jurisdiction who lives in Kenosha and knows both of these guys.

It will all come out. Did you see the video from Fox News? Shows a lot more than what is being shown on CNN.
Badge, respectfully, cops have been known to cover for each other.  It's one of the problems with trying to reform police departments.  The good cops cover for the bad ones.  "Don't rat out a fellow cop."
Play Like a Champion Today

NorthernOhioBuckeye

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 1101
  • Liked:
Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #7139 on: August 27, 2020, 02:06:58 PM »
There is plenty of evidence that the disparities in outcomes between black and white people in the country is race-based. So much so that the point is essentially irrefutable in honest discourse.

The point about systemic racism isn't that in any one situation an overtly racist person commits a racist act (though in the George Floyd example a likely explanation is a person who isn't actively racist, but probably at least unconsciously so, committed a racist act). It is that the systemic problems we have not addressed led to a situation where, once again, the outcome is dire for a black person.

As I said (so many) pages back, this doesn't excuse lawbreaking, including resisting arrest, and it doesn't mean we should coddle people who have proven they are a threat to society. It does mean that we need an honest reckoning about race in America so that we can try to address it.

Cincy above noted some programs aimed at addressing historical inequities, like affirmative action. There is this strain of thinking that affirmative action (1) unfairly harmed white people (and men), and (2) that as a result, black people actually have an advantage in today's America (or 1980s/90s America). But for all that chatter, it would be difficult to find a white person who would voluntarily switch with a black person if that included all the other issues a black person faced in his or her life. And the research (and anecdotal evidence) on the black experience in America is that even with race-based quotas or even just preferences, black people continued to face much greater challenges to their success than white people. That doesn't mean white people don't also face challenges--we do. But the mere fact of being black adds significant challenges, even when coupled with affirmative action and programs of the like.

So why are we talking about this here? Rioting is not ok. Destroying people's property--or government property--is not ok. But labeling Black Lives Matter protesters as domestic terrorists because some people (including some white-supremacist agitators) infect their demonstrations feeds into the "everything is ok, there's no racism here" narrative, and attacks their idea--one that is hard to argue with honestly--that black people are still suffering from unfair policies. Responding that "All lives matter" is not ok. When people said "Vegas Strong," or "Boston Strong," the reaction wasn't, "No, America strong."

Earlier Kris, I think, suggested colorblindness. Read my farm example: is everything ok at the end?
I can see that we are not going to agree. 

Let me just say this. I don't see people as monolithic groups defined by sex, race, sexual preference, etc. I see people simply as people, capable of making decisions for themselves, regardless of societal or environment norms. If I am being robbed or assaulted by someone, I don't stop and consider their race, gender or any other physical characteristic of the person committing the act. All I know is that in that moment, that person is a threat to me and the only thing I need to worry about is what action should I take to escape the situation alive. 

We can sit an analyze racial strife until the cows come home but it will not change what happened in Kenosha. And as long as people, white, black, brown, yellow, resist lawful police instructions and then fight with the police, there will be cops shooting people. That is a fact.   

But let me ask you this. If you believe that this incident is a result of historical discrimination or systemic racism or whatever other reason that may be postulated, can you explain how someone could make a claim such as:

“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

Do you want to guess who said that?

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.