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Topic: Misfits Thread

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Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4802 on: July 12, 2020, 03:56:24 PM »
I would probably move to Canada as my first choice, maybe BC, Vancouver or something that way, if I had to move.

Other than that, maybe Puerto Rico or Hawaii or Guam.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4803 on: July 12, 2020, 04:16:14 PM »
If anyone wants to finance a brewery in the Cinque Terre, just let me know and I'm gone. 

847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4804 on: July 12, 2020, 04:27:18 PM »
Stay proud, guys.  Badge, could you quote where I said the rest of the world hates us?  I'll hang up and listen.
I substituted "hate" for your two sentences on how we are perceived. In general, you could not possibly be more wrong.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4805 on: July 12, 2020, 05:15:03 PM »
I'm not sure the new deal was failed/bad at the time.There were no Gov't safety nets in place at the time save some soup lines.No welfare,unemployment just the The WPA; renamed in 1939 as the Work Projects Administration was an employing millions of job-seekers to carry out public works projects, including the construction of public buildings and roads.Had to kick start the economy somehow
The New Deal did not kick-start the economy.  It was all about centralized control, and that didn't work.  The economy was still floundering in 1939 when WWII began in Europe.  It started pulling out as we began selling military weapons and materiel to Britain and France, and then our own entry after Pearl Harbor really brought about economic recovery.
The way we teach the New Deal is by dividing it up into its three stated goals--Relief, Recovery, and Reform.
It did provide relief, it created long-lasting reforms (you can argue about whether they were good ones or not), but it absolutely did not provide for economic recovery.  The economy would have recovered more quickly had there never been a New Deal (or Herbert Hoover's massive-for-their-time) interventions either.
The contemporary nicknames for the WPA were “We Poke Along,” “We Piddle Around,” “We Putter Along,” “We Provide Alms,” etc.
Throw enough money at things and some good stuff comes out.  My parents graduated from a high school built by the WPA in a new architectural style, "WPA Art Deco."


It was built on the poor side of town.  The WPA built an even nicer one in a nicer part of town.

The WPA built 3 runways out on little islands in the Pacific for Amelia Earhart's flight.
A lot of the federal "redlining" policies that kept black families from accumulating wealth through home-ownership started during the New Deal.

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4806 on: July 12, 2020, 05:16:45 PM »
The New Deal did not kick-start the economy.  
Then kids are being taught wrong, lol.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4807 on: July 12, 2020, 05:17:20 PM »
I substituted "hate" for your two sentences on how we are perceived. In general, you could not possibly be more wrong.
Right, you changed my words.  At least you acknowledge reality.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

847badgerfan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4808 on: July 12, 2020, 05:46:39 PM »
Then kids are being taught wrong, lol.
Of course. History professors like to re-write it too.
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Cincydawg

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4809 on: July 12, 2020, 05:56:21 PM »
The New Deal likely had some impact on the economy, but there was another downturn in 1937 that was pretty severe.  It really was the war that moved us out of the Depression.  Economies do tend to recover on their own to some extent, so it's hard to distinguish how much was government policy related and how much was just normal.

CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4810 on: July 12, 2020, 06:32:25 PM »
I don't know.  Those parents have their own subpar childhoods influencing their undesirable ideologies and behaviors now. 

What doesn't help are the positive, helpful parents removing their students from local public schools.  If the school community is positive and their child brings home positive things, that's going to make it more likely for the 'other' families to buy-in.  If their only contact are negative phone calls from school and their child only has negative stories to bring home, then it's the same old shit and they have no incentive to improve.

I've always taught at Title 1 schools and have lived in poorer areas and if I may, one thing I've learned is that when people are poor, anything that isn't an immediate need is irrelevant.  Following traffic laws?  Nah.  Holding a door open?  Right.  Sitting down with my child and asking them about their day, earnestly?  Nuh uh.  Turning down my music because it's late and my neighbors might not appreciate it?  Puh-lease.
I understand this is a wide, general...generalization.  It's unfair to many, but it's still real-world observations over the course of years.

Anyway, it's about immediate needs/wants being met.  A 20 year old interacts very differently with you if they're texting on their phone than if their phone just got cut off.  A parent suddenly doesn't have time to help with homework when they're trying to do the math that gets them to the end of the month (math they struggle with in the first place).

How to provide that?  I don't know.  Universal basic income?  Too liberal, right?  Raising the minimum wage?  Destroys all small businesses, I know, I know. 

Basically what it comes down to is that we have 2 options and maybe both will be required.  We're going to need one generation to be amazing and just "get it" and yearn to do better.  And we need to remove excuses from the generation before it by just inundating them with assistance.  I know, that's a dirty word, but instead of decades of assistance that keeps the same ghettos from the 70s still ghettos today, a one-gen only deluge of help might do it.  Might turn a corner.  Might move the needle in the right direction. 

I doubt any of you will agree, and that's fine.  I don't claim to have THE answer, it's just a shot in the dark.  But financially, this is superior to what's been going on.  It's like a contract with a football player - no one-year deal is a bad deal from the team's perspective, no matter how rich.  The problem that hamstrings teams are bad long-term deals.  We've had a bad long-term deal with poverty for decades.  Cutting a fat, virtual one-year deal is, at least, something different.
Thank you for teaching at poor schools.  It takes a special sort of teacher to willingly do that.  I am not one of those.  I taught at what was supposed to be a magnet middle school for foreign languages, but was at the edge of "inner city-dom."  It was not by far the worst or poorest middle school in town.  It had no race/ethnic group in the majority.  Whites were the largest minority group, then blacks, then Latinos, then Native Americans.  I did that for 8 years.  It was not a joy for me.  Every Sunday evening during the school year, my stomach started twisting into knots in anticipation of the next five days.

Middle school, for one thing, is the pits.  I'm sure that most of us remember ourselves when we were 12-14, and we think that we were just fine then.  Well, we weren't.  Most of us were awful.  That's the worst age.  And most of the kids, and most of their parents, didn't put much value on the notion of education.  We did not set and uphold high standards of either behavior or academic performance.  In general, the black kids were the worst-behaved, but there was a quota system on school discipline.  We could not have impose disciplinary action on a higher percentage of black kids than the percentage of black kids in the overall school population.  The black kids--no dummies--had this figured out and they knew that they could get away with behavior that would get white kids suspended.

All that is to say that what you are doing in teaching impoverished kids is a good thing.

About your recommendations, I think that they are very high-minded, but I don't think that they would work.  They are extensions of the same ideas that have failed over the last 50+ years.  More federal money into inner-city schools.  More before-school and after-school programs.  Head Start.  Free meals.  Free laundry service at school.  What all of that has done is to relieve parents of their responsibilities to raise their children properly.

When Hammerin' Henry Cisneros was HUD Secretary during the Clinton years, he had the idea that the way to inspire poor people to move out of poverty was to put them into subsidized housing in middle-class neighborhoods.  They would see that middle-class people got up in the morning and went to work, that they that came home at the end of the work-day, that they mowed their yards, that they kept their homes repaired.  So middle-class values would rub off on the poor folks, and they would adopt those values, and they would join the middle class.  It didn't work.  Instead, the middle-class areas that were the recipients of these projects deteriorated, property values went down, and the middle-class folks moved out.  So the net effect was to expand poverty rather than to help people climb out of it.

To me, your well-intentioned proposal seems to be to do more of the same.  A lot more.  All at once.  To jump-start a generation of poor minority parents into being being good parents in strong families.  But one effect of our anti-poverty programs over the last 50+ years has been to weaken the family structure in poor families, which means, disproportionately, black families.  (It's not the only factor doing this--a criminal justice system that incarcerates black convicts longer than white ones is another.)  In fact, if you look at poverty rates in America over time, you will find that from 1950 to 1965, they were consistently coming down.  More Americans got off poverty during that time--with the benefit of few if any centralized anti-poverty programs.  Starting in 1966, the "War on Poverty" programs began to kick in, and the decline in poverty rates stopped.  Ever since, it has remained between 11 and 14 percent, fluctuating with the economy.

Just as with many things that the federal government runs, the results were far different from what was promised.  The money was spent, and is still being spent, but poverty rates aren't going down anymore.  We would have done better, perhaps, to have just cut very large checks to poor people rather than building an armada of social programs that don't work well and often even work at cross purposes.

It doesn't work to say, "Well, they didn't design the programs right--we'll do it better this time."  When billions of dollars are going to be spent, our political system isn't very good at making sure that they all go to where they are most needed.  Most of it goes to line the pockets of people with connections to powerful politicians and never makes it to the supposed target audience.

One more thing.  It is also no good to say, "Well, those white middle-class families should have stayed in the deteriorating neighborhood rather than abandon it."  Parents' primary responsibilities are to their own children, not the children of some folks they don't even know who have moved into the neighborhood because of some federal program.  Our circles of responsibilities work outward, in decreasing degrees of responsibility.  I am responsible to my wife more than I am to the welfare of the other wives in my neighborhood.  I am responsible for the welfare of the wives in my neighborhood more than I am for the welfare of the wives on the other side of town.  And more for them than for the wives on the other side of the country.  Same thing with our parents and our children.  It is not right for you or the government to expect that, faced with a deteriorating school system, I will keep my children in it out of a sense that I owe it to the other kids in the school system.

We meet our obligations to those closest to us directly.  We meet our obligations to society by being good neighbors, paying our taxes, obeying the laws, and, if possible, through charitable works and donations.  (BTW, Americans are the most charitable people in the world.)  But my children are not sacrificial pawns to make programs designed by Henry Cisneros and his ilk work.  What parents owe their children is the best that they can provide.  If that means moving them out of a failing public school system into a better one, then that's what they should do, IMO.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4811 on: July 12, 2020, 06:36:03 PM »
They should honestly rename this "being American."
No.  They should rename it "being human."
I don't know where you got this idea that people everywhere else are better, smarter, wiser, more honorable, etc.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4812 on: July 12, 2020, 06:43:00 PM »
Yes, the trick would be improving areas while keeping the same population in place.  But simply raising rent/mortgages costs doesn't do that.  A commensurate increase in income would offset that and we could come up with some other fancy word when the ideal goal is met.
But the areas WON'T improve while the same population is there.  The evidence is that they haven't improved.
Areas don't get gentrified merely by someone coming in and raising rents and mortgages.  The rising rents and mortgages are the results, not the causes.
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CWSooner

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4813 on: July 12, 2020, 06:47:51 PM »
Then kids are being taught wrong, lol.
If you are teaching them that the New Deal did kick-start the economy, then they are being taught wrong.

Here's what FDR's Treasury Secretary had to say on the subject:

Quote
“We’ve tried spending money. We’re spending more money than we’ve ever spent before, and it does not work.

“I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get jobs. We have never made good on our promises. I say after eight [sic] years of this administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started and an enormous debt to boot.”

~ Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau testimony to Congress, 9 May 1939
He should have said "six."  Maybe he was also thinking about Hoover's proto-New Deal programs that also didn't lead to economic recovery.  Much of the New Deal consisted of extension and expansions of programs that Hoover had started.

Quote
“We didn’t admit it at the time, but practically the whole New Deal was extrapolated from programs that Hoover started.”

~ Rexford Tugwell
Interview, 1974
Rexford Tugwell was part of FDR's "Brains Trust" of advisors.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 06:53:59 PM by CWSooner »
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MrNubbz

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4814 on: July 12, 2020, 07:32:07 PM »
If anyone wants to finance a brewery in the Cinque Terre, just let me know and I'm gone.
I can help tend the wort?Would Cinque Terre be to hot for laggering?Just right for IPAs,meh Maybe I'll go to Ontario/Qubec
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: 2020 Offseason Stream of Unconciousness
« Reply #4815 on: July 12, 2020, 09:16:41 PM »

I don't know where you got this idea that people everywhere else are better, smarter, wiser, more honorable, etc.
I don't know why people keep inventing words I never said.  FFS.

People around the world are no better, smarter, wiser, or more honorable than we Americans are.  They're simply less delusional about themselves.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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