Nordin was kicked off the team for calling Harbaugh a motherf***er in practice. Was probably transferring either wayBeen a long time since Harbaugh spent the night with him.
Metellus is terrible in every big game. Getting all the cornerbacks back is big though.Because Don Brown asks him to do things he shouldn’t be asking him to do.
Been a long time since Harbaugh spent the night with him.That was wrong but funny
Something has to change offensively. As I was watching Baker Mayfield almost come back and beat the Ravens, it hit me, that Michigan’s offense is not only ineffective vs better teams, but it’s also incredibly boring.Pep has taken another job sounds like, and the problem isn’t the QB or Pep, it’s Harbaugh. It’s his boring, stupid offense with his fingerprints all over it.
Looking back, this was one of the most boring 10 win seasons I can remember. They simply are not a fun team to watch. I would honestly rather watch a 7-8 win RichRod team than this 10 win Harbaugh team.
It’s difficult to determine if it’s Pep or Harbaugh, but the offense has not evolved with as the game has evolved over the last 15 years.
I’m hopeful something changes heading into 2019. My preference is that there’s a change with Pep and at qb. Those two changes will help us see if Harbaugh is actually the problem.
If they can get the other starting CB David Long to return as well- whoa.Long declared for the draft
Long declared for the draftAlways made more sense for him to leave early than Hill imo.
Pep has taken another job sounds like, and the problem isn’t the QB or Pep, it’s Harbaugh. It’s his boring, stupid offense with his fingerprints all over it.Brandon Peters actually played ok. The fact that Speight was the starting qb tells me that the coaching staff has no grasp at deterring the best an on the roster. I believe that was true in 2018 as well. Say what you will, but Shea did nothing to wow me. He did have a solid completion percentage, but when you throw to your tight ends a million times, or Nico and DPJ catch wvwrything, I’m not sure how much of that’s on the qb.
Shea was actually pretty good all things considered. You saw how bad Speight, O’Korn, and Peters looked playing in this shit show offense for these stupid coaches, right? McCaffrey has shown next to nothing and newsflash: Joe Milton sucks at playing QB. Better pray to god that Shea doesn’t get hurt or 2019 will be ugly as shit.
In other news, TE Zach Gentry has declared for the NFL draft. Which makes no sense to me, seeing as how he has some ways to go as a blocker still and he dropped more big key passes in the biggest games this season than any WR/TE that I’ve ever seen at Michigan. Should’ve stayed in school and improved.
LB coach Al Washington to Ohio State. If you can't beat 'em join 'em I guess. I think this makes DC Brown to Temple more likely since Washington was one of his guys.Not sure it means anything in regards to Don Brown.
to be fair.. sometimes people want to create their own shadows and not live under a relatives...Harbaugh shit the bed here imo. This one was a layup with mom and dad heavily in Michigan’s corner.
Yeah but....F that Michigan man noise. Go out and hire the best people regardless of ties.
Is he a Michigan man?
It did say co-OC right? I assume that means Pep is stayingBeen rumors for months that Pep wouldn’t be back next year and was told to go look for an NFL job.
Liking the hire more and more just reading about this guys chops as a recruiter and the work he did with Penn State and Bama’s WRs.PSU WR fell off a cliff without him
Michigan has 3 elite talents at WR coming into their jr seasons in DPJ, Black, and Nico, and a pair of talented kids going into their sophomore year in Ronnie Bell and Oliver Martin. They are also bribing in a very talented frosh in Cornelius Johnson.
With a little bit of luck in the health department and some development that WR crew could really take off next season if this guy is allowed to change that offense around.
Not many teams will have a WR crew as talented as this Michigan one next year. Would be a huge shame if it didn’t make a big leap forward with Patterson coming back and a healthy Black and a new OC and WRs coach.
PSU WR fell off a cliff without himHe seems to be an ace recruiter and a WR guru. Two things Michigan desperately needed right now.
F that Michigan man noise. Go out and hire the best people regardless of ties.Okay, he coached the WRs for a year at Western. He good.
I think it's a little weird Bama didn't seem interested in keeping him.Oh please. Bama just lost basically their entire offensive staff from the best offense they’ve ever had.
Oh please. Bama just lost basically their entire offensive staff from the best offense they’ve ever had.But...Gattis didn't get a promotion. With Locksley gone, he would seemingly be OC at Alabama with an amazing amount of talent returning. Instead, he was going to Maryland and then Michigan to also be the OC. I'm not knocking him as a coach, I just don't understand what the reasoning is there.
Locksley got the HC job at Maryland, Dan Enos got the OC job at Miami, Gattis got the OC job at Michigan and their OL coach Brent Key left for Co-OC and OL coach at Georgia Tech.
That’s what happens when you have a record setting offense. You lose coaches. They all left for promotions. Enos and Gattis drop the CO title and get full control, Locksley got a head job in the P5, and the OL coach also got a bump in pay and better title. They all did.
But...Gattis didn't get a promotion. With Locksley gone, he would seemingly be OC at Alabama with an amazing amount of talent returning. Instead, he was going to Maryland and then Michigan to also be the OC. I'm not knocking him as a coach, I just don't understand what the reasoning is there.He’d have more than likely had to share the CO OC title with Enos assuming both stayed. More money, no sharing of title. Easy choice to make.
I think it's a little weird Bama didn't seem interested in keeping him.Just getting back from a four-week vacation (Utah Nat'l Parks in the offseason!!) and am slow on the uptake, but if you are implying this could be similar to the Nussmeier hire (...) maybe (...) because always maybe. But the situations aren't very similar.
Just getting back from a four-week vacation (Utah Nat'l Parks in the offseason!!) and am slow on the uptake, but if you are implying this could be similar to the Nussmeier hire (...) maybe (...) because always maybe. But the situations aren't very similar.I'm not implying anything. Alabama had a historically good offense this year. THE OC gets a head coaching job. The position coaches get better jobs. Gattis was the co-OC. One would logically assume that Alabama might want some continuity on the offensive coaching staff given how good they were and how many people are returning. Unless Gattis just didn't like Alabama, he didn't have the option to stick around as offensive coordinator. I just don't understand why.
For one, Harbaugh, not Hoke, made the hire and he has been a great hirer of coaching talent**. For two, whereas Alabama fans were cheering Nuss out the door, they are clearly disappointed about losing Gattis. And in the neutral-but-different-than-Nuss category, Gattis hasn't ever been an OC. That last one remains a legitimate question/concern/curiosity, but in his last two stops, he's been part of two "highest end" offenses, likely absorbed plenty, and is a fast rider for other reasons. I.E., no one is questioning his recruiting or WR chops.
**(this one is worth spending an extra second on, however, since both of Harbaugh's failed hires - Drevno and Pep - have been OCs. Skepticism is healthy. However, both of those were lapdog hires, whereas Gattis is the first Harbaugh OC to be reported to take over play calling. Maybe that doesn't qualify as a paradigm shift, but it is an extra reason for positivity.)
Enos just named OC at Miami, so...Bama247 saying Saban is zeroing in on ND OC Chip Long.
I think it's both a good hire, and clear Saban wanted to clear house on offense.But isn't that weird? Far be it from me to question Saban, but cleaning house on offense after last season seems...odd.
But isn't that weird? Far be it from me to question Saban, but cleaning house on offense after last season seems...odd.So does leaving MSU to go live in a swamp :96:
Seems like a really good choice- especially if he is allowed to call plays.Press release said Gattis would be calling plays. I have my doubts Harbaugh will back off. We’ll see.
Wolverines have 3 elite level WRs and a damn good QB, plus most of the offensive players back.
A potential for some dynamic offense.
Just getting back from a four-week vacation (Utah Nat'l Parks in the offseason!!)Did ya get up on a little Zion and Bryce?
Did ya get up on a little Zion and Bryce?Thanks for asking, man!🙃
Crazy how many times we saw tracks that clearly belonged to a big cat (cougar, not a dog). Was glad to have the bear mace. But, unlike a grizzly, you always wonder what your odds are of knowing you have to ward the cat off before it's at your neck and game over.Nice write up it's been more than a few years - I've had brushes with black bears in Canada.Happened to be fishing off of a 20 ft ledge when I realized there were wild berry bushes all over the place a bear passed prolly 50 yds away but fortunately going parallel.Nothing like looking around the shore and seeing Bruin paw prints everywhere.Fortunately I was much faster than my fishing buddies.But cougars don't make any noise when stalking.Bears are used to being the baddest thing around so they don't care how much racket they make - they take what they want
Michigan hasn’t had this much WR talent going into a season since like 2004 with Braylon, Avant, and Breaston.Truth.Not sure about Manningham but wasn't Arrington on that team also
Truth.Not sure about Manningham but wasn't Arrington on that team alsoI think they were both freshmen in 2005?
Nice write up it's been more than a few years - I've had brushes with black bears in Canada.Happened to be fishing off of a 20 ft ledge when I realized there were wild berry bushes all over the place a bear passed prolly 50 yds away but fortunately going parallel.Nothing like looking around the shore and seeing Bruin paw prints everywhere.Fortunately I was much faster than my fishing buddies.But cougars don't make any noise when stalking.Bears are used to being the baddest thing around so they don't care how much racket they make - they take what they wantHahaha, faster than your buddies? A little dark but that's all it takes. 😂
Thanks for asking, man!🙃Yeah, you pretty much conquered Utah. My folks grew up out there, and retired to the Zion area about a dozen years ago. It is definitely best in the off season. Good call.
Bryce and Escalante didn't fit our road map. That'll be an incentive to come back for the next trip! I'd really love to win the park's lottery to be one of the 10-20 people per day with permission to see The Wave. And despite having two nights in Zion for Angel's Landing, Observation Point, etc., we'll definitely be back for the Narrows, the Subway, and Kolob.
Ten nights in all. Got in like 70 miles of primitive hiking (some was less than primitive - true wilderness, which is the real dream) all throughout the UT, with a touch in AZ.
Usually stayed in airbnbs or NP lodges for the wife but also satisfied my cold camping itch: At Goblin Valley, we holed up in a yurt (wish I had brought my telescope!) and at Canyonlands, I set up my tent a few steps from the cliff at Island in the Sky. It got down to 16*F that night. Brrrrrr!
Flew into SLC and after grabbing bear mace and booze, we were off to Capitol Reef NP for a day and night. Then Goblin Valley and Little Widhorse. Then Arches NP, then Canyonlands NP. Did Monument Valley (was minorly bummed at how that's less hiking than a restaurant and driving around). A day in Antelope Canyon plus Coral Pink Sand Dunes. And finally the 48h at Zion.
From talks with rangers, the parks seemed to top out at 50-200 people per day. And very few of them were hiking. Stuff of dreams.
Crazy how many times we saw tracks that clearly belonged to a big cat (cougar, not a dog). Was glad to have the bear mace. But, unlike a grizzly, you always wonder what your odds are of knowing you have to ward the cat off before it's at your neck and game over.
We finished with 24-hours in Vegas. Which is probably the ideal amount of Vegas for Beth and I. And after showing up late and lying about it being our honeymoon, the Bellagio upgraded us to the stupidest suite I may ever see - penthouse, private elevator, overlooking the famous fountain. So so so perfect and dumb.
Looking back, wow. Never seen anything like Utah. Well I went as a child but had forgotten. Still, it was the right length of trip because just as it was ending, we were ready to be elsewhere, home with families in Algonac, MI then across Canada to Buffalo, NY. So whew - we've put in some miles.
Very jealous, AC... Glad you had a blast. Sounds amazingThanks man! This probably isn't weird, at least I hope not, but when we were out there I did briefly think of you and medina, just based on past posts about the great outdoors.
Very cool about your origins; had no clue. I'm not sure if your parents retired around Zion/Springdale or a small hop away, like St. George.They are in St George.
It's a real embarrassment of riches out there - state wide, truly, but somehow even more so in that SW corner. We had originally hoped to include St. George. We were basically there, but it just didn't fit. Ditto Kanarraville and New Harmony.
If you get into the nitty gritty, including not just parks/towns but named hikes/sites, there may be a literal hundred reasons (on our scratch papers and word docs) begging us back to that SW corner of UT. And that's just what Google helped us know about.
But...Gattis didn't get a promotion. With Locksley gone, he would seemingly be OC at Alabama with an amazing amount of talent returning. Instead, he was going to Maryland and then Michigan to also be the OC. I'm not knocking him as a coach, I just don't understand what the reasoning is there.It's realistic that he would have remained co-OC at Alabama. Leaving to become sole OC is not quite a lateral move when the HC also offers you full control of the offense.
It's realistic that he would have remained co-OC at Alabama. Leaving to become sole OC is not quite a lateral move when the HC also offers you full control of the offense.yeah pretty easy to see his reasoning. $1.5 million of them. That's what Gattis' annual salary will be at Michigan. And the press release of his hiring said he'd be calling the plays and on Harbaugh's own podcast it was explicitly stated that Gattis would have full control.
Locksley may have been offering that. We've been skeptical about whether Harbaugh was offering that (it'd be unprecedented for him), but JH just admitted he's handing over the keys on his podcast. Meanwhile, it's now being reported that Saban gave Gattis a "20-minute verbal lashing" when he expressed his interest in leaving for UMd.
I think those are significant changes in info that's public. So rather than it being weird that Gattis didn't stay at Alabama or that "Saban didn't want him," I think it's at least as safe (and arguably truer) to say Saban did want Gatttis** and frame Gattis's motivations as pretty normal: He wanted full freedom and a guarantee for no "Co-." And perhaps he'd have had neither in Tuscaloosa.
**("When Coach Harbaugh called, it kind of caught me off guard because I had just left a meeting with Nick Saban getting my butt chewed out for 20 minutes telling him I was leaving and he was trying to get me to stay. It did not go over well.")
What makes no sense to me and strikes me as weird- is Dan Enos going to Miami.Sounds like Saban was blindsided by the idea that Locksley, Enos and Gattis would all be gone.
Quite the offseason in Ann Arbor. Helluva 17 days so far. Jeez.it's been a doozy. That's for sure.
Quite the offseason in Ann Arbor. Helluva 17 days so far. Jeez.You're not wrong.
I'm thinking it'd be next to impossible to get an upgrade at DL coach. Can't do better than Mattison. He's one of the very best.It may be true, especially in his prime. I think he probably still has it, but an interesting thing about the Michigan DL, which has been up there with the very best nationally across the last 4 or so seasons, is how much they feasted on Hoke era recruiting. Harbaugh has been impressive at recruiting and developing DEs (Mattison clearly never lost that), but the best of these recent M DLs were driven by highest end college tackles (Hurst, Glasgow, Henry, etc.). And now those guys are going extinct in A2. Kemp and Dwumfour aren't garbage, but they're merely above average among Big Ten starters, which's a massive dropoff from recent editions. And this isn't covering depth issues either. Even with Mattison, 2019 appeared dire on the interior DL. Crazy to say.
it's been a doozy. That's for sure.I wonder if John Palermo would be available. He seems to be taking it easy, but he is very good at what he does, although abrasive. I remember him coaching my kid at camp in Madison. Definitely old-school. Might fit in.
I'm really liking the hires of Gattis and Campanile. Both of those look like home runs on paper. They got an upgrade at OC by snatching Gattis and dumping Pep and an upgrade at Safety coach and LB coach with Patridge likely heading back to LB and Campanile taking over safety.
I'm thinking it'd be next to impossible to get an upgrade at DL coach. Can't do better than Mattison. He's one of the very best.
It's realistic that he would have remained co-OC at Alabama. Leaving to become sole OC is not quite a lateral move when the HC also offers you full control of the offense.I mean, I get that Gattis was basically a glorified receiver coach and it is an upgrade to go be the OC at Michigan. I don't get Saban letting all of his offensive staff go. It's just kind of weird, with Gattis apparently not liked enough to be the OC at Alabama but now he's the OC at Michigan and Harbaugh is supposedly going to let him run the offense as he wants. On paper it is good - Michigan really needs to open up things on offense a bit to be a real contender, and Gattis brings experience with two very good offenses. But I have my doubts on how this is all going to work.
Locksley may have been offering that. We've been skeptical about whether Harbaugh was offering that (it'd be unprecedented for him), but JH just admitted he's handing over the keys on his podcast. Meanwhile, it's now being reported that Saban gave Gattis a "20-minute verbal lashing" when he expressed his interest in leaving for UMd.
I think those are significant changes in info that's public. So rather than it being weird that Gattis didn't stay at Alabama or that "Saban didn't want him," I think it's at least as safe (and arguably truer) to say Saban did want Gatttis** and frame Gattis's motivations as pretty normal: He wanted full freedom and a guarantee for no "Co-." And perhaps he'd have had neither in Tuscaloosa.
**("When Coach Harbaugh called, it kind of caught me off guard because I had just left a meeting with Nick Saban getting my butt chewed out for 20 minutes telling him I was leaving and he was trying to get me to stay. It did not go over well.")
You formed that opinion (that Saban let his offensive staff go) at a time when it was still probable. But now you have good reason to change that opinion. After verbally abusing Gattis over his decision to leave for Maryland and trying to convince him to stay, it doesn't make sense to believe Saban "let Gattis go" unless you believe that story Gattis told -- about Saban being pissed, stressing to keep him and Gattis leaving anyway -- was made up.There is zero chance that Saban wanted to purge his entire offensive staff that just engineered his offense to be the best in the history of Alabama’s program and the best offense Saban has ever coached anywhere at any level just so he could go hire a fricken loser like Sark. Adding Sark after losing all that coaching talent = a disaster imo.
In other news, TE Zach Gentry has declared for the NFL draft. Which makes no sense to me, seeing as how he has some ways to go as a blocker still and he dropped more big key passes in the biggest games this season than any WR/TE that I’ve ever seen at Michigan. Should’ve stayed in school and improved.Probably not the best year for Zach Gentry to declare early at the TE position. There are other tight ends coming out early.
You formed that opinion (that Saban let his offensive staff go) at a time when it was still probable. But now you have good reason to change that opinion. After verbally abusing Gattis over his decision to leave for Maryland and trying to convince him to stay, it doesn't make sense to believe Saban "let Gattis go" unless you believe that story Gattis told -- about Saban being pissed, stressing to keep him and Gattis leaving anyway -- was made up.There's almost no question he let him go. The question is why wouldn't he give him the same opportunity Michigan gave him so he would stay.
There's almost no question he let him go. The question is why wouldn't he give him the same opportunity Michigan gave him so he would stay.I think that's an unfounded opinion, whereas the "Saban really tried to keep Gattis" opinion has at least some founding:
Probably not the best year for Zach Gentry to declare early at the TE position. There are other tight ends coming out early.He couldn't have known about Gattis at the time but could reasonably have sensed that (major?) offensive change was coming.
I think that's an unfounded opinion, whereas the "Saban really tried to keep Gattis" opinion has at least some founding:Right - what I'm saying is it seems pretty clear Alabama had no interest in Gattis as the offensive coordinator. It was pretty well rumored he was going to Maryland for a long time, and Saban basically offered Gattis nothing to keep him. My point is that it is a weird situation to let your co-offensive coordinator just walk without trying to keep him, and the only response I've heard is that Saban didn't think Gattis could be the offensive coordinator. Well, why not?
Gattis:
- "If you look at my track record, I've been at places for a long time. I was with James Franklin for six years. Opportunities started presenting themselves and I had some tough choices to make. And, obviously, professionally and personally one of my goals was to be an offensive coordinator. That's been a lifelong dream of mine. That's something with the input that I've had and the fingerprint I've been able to leave on a lot of programs has allowed me to continue to prepare myself to put me in this position. When Coach Harbaugh called, it kind of caught me off guard because I had just left a meeting with Nick Saban getting my butt chewed out for 20 minutes telling him I was leaving and he was trying to get me to stay. It did not go over well."
We have no evidence for Saban letting any of these guys go, but now we do have evidence for at least one of them (a) going out and getting a better job without letting Alabama in on a bidding war and (b) Saban being mad/sad about that.
Right (...) and the only response I've heard is that Saban didn't think Gattis could be the offensive coordinator.I know you keep saying that, but where else have you heard it. Saban? Gattis? Other members of the staff? I'm clearly doubting you heard it from a reliable place.
I know you keep saying that, but where else have you heard it. Saban? Gattis? Other members of the staff? I'm clearly doubting you heard it from a reliable place.Just putting the pieces together. A guy says he's leaving because he wants to be the offensive coordinator. So, that wasn't an option at Alabama. Otherwise, we start getting weird theories about how he would rather be at Maryland than Alabama.
Just putting the pieces together. A guy says he's leaving because he wants to be the offensive coordinator. So, that wasn't an option at Alabama. Otherwise, we start getting weird theories about how he would rather be at Maryland than Alabama.This is my take. Saban would have liked to have kept him, but felt he wasn't ready to be the OC at this time.
Just putting the pieces together. A guy says he's leaving because he wants to be the offensive coordinator. So, that wasn't an option at Alabama. Otherwise, we start getting weird theories about how he would rather be at Maryland than Alabama.Not to get too Bayesian, but: A weird theory with direct support is equal or better than a normal theory without any.
Of course it's OK to blindly guess that's the case. I do prefer that we emphasize that no one associated with Alabama has said anything to strengthen that idea yet. Especially this new info from someone assoc'd with Bama (Gattis) that, whether Saban wanted to promote him or not, Nick was in the dark until after everything was over.It's not a blind guess. It is almost certainly what happened. There are no facts which suggest Gattis was ever considered to be the offensive coordinator at Alabama. I just haven't really puzzled out why that's the case.
Not to get too Bayesian, but: A weird theory with direct support is equal or better than a normal theory without any.Anything is possible, but we do have direct support that he wasn't considered the Alabama OC, and that is that he's not the Alabama OC and there is no evidence suggesting he had that option. I mean, under your logic you and I were possible options for Alabama OC and we just didn't want it, either.
Gattis keeping Saban completely in the dark is definitely weird, but - apparently - true anyway. Maybe he just didn't want to be on Saban's staff anymore.
It's not a blind guess. It is almost certainly what happened. There are no facts which suggest Gattis was ever considered to be the offensive coordinator at Alabama. I just haven't really puzzled out why that's the case.It doesn't take any real puzzling to build plausible scenarios thay begin with the only insider take we have:
he's not the Alabama OC and there is no evidence suggesting he had that option.There's equal evidence (none) that Gattis would and would not have been offered the OC position if he hadn't done the unusual thing of keeping Saban completely in the dark until being his OC was irrelevant.
I mean, under your logic you and I were possible options for Alabama OC and we just didn't want it, either.Haha, I can't believe you want me to type this: You and I were never talented enough to get a co-OC job from Saban last year and he never expressed anger and disappointment that we took a job without his knowing that was happening.
It doesn't take any real puzzling to build plausible scenarios thay begin with the only insider take we have:We certainly don't know that Saban was surprised. It was reported before this meeting that Gattis was going to Maryland, Harbaugh said he heard through the grapevine that he was leaving, and somehow Nick Saban is in the dark? Seems very unlikely. Then they had a 20 minute conversation and that was Saban's pitch to keep him?
Saban wouldn't have been incentivized to promote his WR coach unless he knew Gattis was leaving. And (despite the rumor mill), from Gattis's telling, Saban clearly didn't know that until after Gattis was gone.
We certainly don't know that Saban was surprised. It was reported before this meeting that Gattis was going to Maryland, Harbaugh said he heard through the grapevine that he was leaving, and somehow Nick Saban is in the dark? Seems very unlikely. Then they had a 20 minute conversation and that was Saban's pitch to keep him?According to Gattis, who would know, yes, that's when Saban got mad and tried to keep him on staff.
It doesn't appear likely that Saban wanted to offer him the job.If you changed your wording here on purpose, then we no longer have a disagreement.
According to Gattis, who would know, yes, that's when Saban got mad and tried to keep him on staff.If you changed your wording here on purpose, then we no longer have a disagreement.Well, there are tried and true methods for trying to keep someone, and they involve money and promotions, and it doesn't appear Saban offered either. Instead, he offered 20 minutes of tongue lashing. Draw conclusions on that as you will.
Again, I was only ever rejecting the extent you were going to insist Saban absolutely wouldn't offer a pure OC job to his co-OC. If you step back from definitely to "likely," then we're good.
The idea that Saban would never want Gattis as OC next year has a chance but it was wrong to conclude it past "maybe." Because we know Saban tried to keep Gattis, who was gone before Saban knew whether or not to give an OC offer. And that takes oomf out of "but he wasn't publicly offered the OC job before leaving Tuscaloosa."
Well, there are tried and true methods for trying to keep someone, and they involve money and promotions, and it doesn't appear Saban offered either. Instead, he offered 20 minutes of tongue lashing. Draw conclusions on that as you will.We're going round and round and don't have to so long as that word choice was deliberate (when you changed from "definitely" to "likely"). But to repeat in case it wasn't deliberate:
The facts-Harbaugh's best Off Playcalling years were 2015 and 2016, with the creative screens, traps and FB dives. They moved away from those things. I'm sure part of that was that defenses were catching on. That kind of arms race is normal. But then we transitioned into an O that moreso fits the Bo/Harbaugh aesthetic. The main problem with that - basically the forfeiture of unpredictability - is that Michigan isn't a fully formed offense and "biggest kid on the block" right now. So they need an offense that can consistently punch above its weight class. They had that in 2015/16. And then they gave it up.
* Gattis is a proven commodity in recruiting and player development
* Gattis has little to no experience with developing an offensive unit's identity and play-calling
Offensive coordinators are judged heavily on the latter. I think it's a risk worth taking. The bar for Michigan is low. When they have had offensive success, the last couple years it has been in spite of play-calling and strategy. It's largely to due with the talent they line up with being better than what's across from them. Gattis has spent time with Locksley and Moorehead, and appears to share a similar philosophy.
Y'all were pretty giddy about the Pep hire on here. Just sayin'.don't remember that. most Michigan fans on the message boards were actually pissed off when Jedd Fisch left and he got replaced with Pep Hamilton.
Y'all were pretty giddy about the Pep hire on here. Just sayin'.I'm giddy about many Michigan things, but at least someone wasn't. I just can't remember who.
Gattis was a great hire and anyone saying otherwise is just talking bs.
I'd much rather have someone like Gattis get full control of the offense and call the plays vs. the weird, clunky, Pep/Harbaugh collab that has failed miserably the last 2 seasons.
Pep was fired from his last two NFL jobs. Yet Harbaugh thought it was a great move to hire him and pay him $1.2 million a year.
Saban wanted to keep Gattis. He tried to keep him. That's a fact. Even the Bama insiders have said as much. Problem is- he wasn't willing to hand over full control of the offense and pay Gattis $1.5 million a year like Harbaugh was. Gattis would've made $525,000 at Alabama this year. He's making a million dollars more this year by taking the Michigan job. Saban wasn't offering full control, he'd have to have share it with Enos and they weren't offering to up his contract by $1 million.
I give Harbaugh a lot of credit for having the balls to go outbid Saban & Maryland and take a chance on a young, up and comer. Honestly didn't think he had it in him. Just thought he'd try more of the same old bullshit with Pep & him working on their clumsy, stupid, "body blow", 10 TE set offenses.
Really didn't think Harbaugh had this in him. Might be the thing that saves his ass in the long run if it works out.
don't remember that. most Michigan fans on the message boards were actually pissed off when Jedd Fisch left and he got replaced with Pep Hamilton.Are you OK with M paying $1.5MM for a coordinator who never truly coordinated?
Pep Hamilton made Andrew Luck look mediocre in Indianapolis. Think for a second how much you have to suck to make a once in a generational talent like Andrew Luck look bad? Well, Pep did that shit. I was no fan of Pep Hamilton's ever. And I was even less of a fan of his stupid massive contract. NO ONE is knocking down his door to hire him let alone pay him $1.2+ million a year.
y'all pay yer assistants WAY too much $$$And with all that money, there's not even that much retention of assistants for those schools.
Are you OK with M paying $1.5MM for a coordinator who never truly coordinated?Yes. I mean, it grates somewhat it the generic ways, where (a) fans complain about ticket prices or (b) hard working everyday people whine that some famous person works equally but makes 50-100x more annually. But while those emotional arguments are familiar and comforting in an Everyman kind of way, they're also terrible arguments. Because they ignore subtleties about capitalism. Or that despite atypically high assistant salaries, Michigan's ticket prices aren't growing at any different rate than they are for the rest of the P5.
Are you OK with M paying $1.5MM for a coordinator who never truly coordinated?Yes. He’s an up and comer. They pretty much had to overpay him to get him to leave Bama and turn down Maryland.
Is he really getting full control of the "bus"? As in, he gets to shape his own staff? If that's the case, they should have kicked the tires on Canada. He'd be in Bloomington right now, if given full control. Wilson wouldn't do that though.Canada was my dream hire. He’d have been great but it’d have never worked. He’s too much like Harbaugh- just too big of an asshole. Two big time assholes like that- it’d never work.
don't remember that. most Michigan fans on the message boards were actually pissed off when Jedd Fisch left and he got replaced with Pep Hamilton.I recall, maybe not giddiness, but some excitement about a steady pro-style hand. The thing about the Luck stuff is you could've credited the first two years to Pep and written the last one off as injuries at the time.
Pep Hamilton made Andrew Luck look mediocre in Indianapolis. Think for a second how much you have to suck to make a once in a generational talent like Andrew Luck look bad? Well, Pep did that shit. I was no fan of Pep Hamilton's ever. And I was even less of a fan of his stupid massive contract. NO ONE is knocking down his door to hire him let alone pay him $1.2+ million a year.
I wonder if Jaybaugh is going to keep his job.I assumed he was the one who just extended that offer to a 13 year old from his Fortnite crew?
I assumed he was the one who just extended that offer to a 13 year old from his Fortnite crew?Could be. I read the comments that there is an 8th grade offer out, in addition to this 7th grader. What is neat is that they will both be from the same high school. When they get to high school, that is.
Is he really getting full control of the "bus"? As in, he gets to shape his own staff? If that's the case, they should have kicked the tires on Canada. He'd be in Bloomington right now, if given full control. Wilson wouldn't do that though.I can't speak to what JH meant. I can just say that he is now on record saying that Gattis has the keys to the car - I believe that regarded O design and game day calls. However, I am 100% sure he does not have the ability to hire/fire assistants. Still, at least in rhetoric, this is a seismic change. JH has never "given over the keys" at any of his stops as far as I know - not even in words.
I wonder if Jaybaugh is going to keep his job.he’s arguably the 2nd best recruiter on that staff behind Chris Partridge.
Hired Arizona State's DL coach. Dude should send a finders fee to that NT they had last year, who was a one man wrecking crew.Love the hire on paper. Don’t think he’s going to be an upgrade from Mattison. But he’s like 35 years younger. So there’s that.
I recall, maybe not giddiness, but some excitement about a steady pro-style hand. The thing about the Luck stuff is you could've credited the first two years to Pep and written the last one off as injuries at the time.Dollars to donuts, that was my take. Positive with seemingly good reasons ... but ultimately deluded.
Granted I feel like Michigan often has the most extremity of overall program buildup on this site, but it's also had the most ups/downs/dissatisfaction with pretty good owing to the OSU thing.
Meanwhile, Michigan is now 1 over the limit on coaches. They can either demote McDaniels back to analyst or release Pep. And every insider take is that McDaniels is here to stay. JH - as he did with Drevno - seems to be shopping Pep around (he's been seen all over the NFL of late) but set to fire him if there are no takers. Sadly, I'm guessing there won't be.Pep is a goner. Insiders all said months ago he was told to look for a new job.
too many 4-stars? not enough 5-stars?
Michigan’s biggest problem at RB has been recruiting. They haven’t recruited a legitimate high level RB. Hopefully Zach Charbonnet is that.
too many 4-stars? not enough 5-stars?An ongoing joke both within and from outside the program (but especially viral among M fans) is that Ann Arbor has lured too many 5-star RBs. As if that number at that position + M = curse. It's silly, but the coincidence (0/4 - Baraka, Grady, Green, Isaac) is nevertheless surprising.
Does he have the personnel to make that move right now will be a huge question. Think back when Rich Rod came in and wanted to run his system, the personnel just was not there and M fan were not going to give him the transition time to make it work. If Jimmy Football does not like the result, he will go back to what he knows and loves.I don't think the personnel is the question. If anything, Harbaugh's 2018 offense was built for the wrong roster.
Per Gattis, his offense will be more spread/RPO.I mean this politely as possible, this sentace is the start of disappointment.
It's such an unexpected move by Harbaugh. Should be fascinating to follow.
I mean this politely as possible, this sentace is the start of disappointment.That's why Harbaugh's commitment to change is still my top question. The quotes are too dramatic to believe. But if JH is committed and Gattis is truly in charge, THEN I'd predict that he'd use those words (RPO and spread) to mean at Michigan what they did when the 2018 Bama and 2016/2017 PSU offenses were being designed.
Spread and RPO sound a lot more high tech and foreign than they end up being.
I will probably go to the M game in Madison this year.If I've finished this second doctorate by then, I'll be there too. I'm not usually one for restraint, but that's the rule I've given myself. Would be great to get back. Last I was there was for a bachelor weekend - including broom ball on UW's practice rink.
Does he have the personnel to make that move right now will be a huge question. Think back when Rich Rod came in and wanted to run his system, the personnel just was not there and M fan were not going to give him the transition time to make it work. If Jimmy Football does not like the result, he will go back to what he knows and loves.Of course they have the personnel to do it. Shea Patterson is tailor made for that style of offense. As is Dylan McCaffrey. These are athletic QB's that can run and throw on the run. These guys aren't statue pocket passers by any means. Their only returning RB with any experience- Chris Evans- is tailor made for that style of offense. He's not a downhill, I-formation runner- like Harbaugh stupidly kept trying to make him into. Evans has a chance to really flourish and take off to the next level in a different style of offense.
That's why Harbaugh's commitment to change is still my top question. The quotes are too dramatic to believe. But if JH is committed and Gattis is truly in charge, THEN I'd predict that he'd use those words (RPO and spread) to mean at Michigan what they did when the 2018 Bama and 2016/2017 PSU offenses were being designed.You misunderstand me, these quotes are not too dramatic to believe. They are not that way because UM already runs a modest amount of "spread" stuff, as that word is kinda meaningless at this point. And Michigan has some RPOs in their package.
And that's why my next biggest question is whether Gattis is all that.
You misunderstand me, these quotes are not too dramatic to believe. They are not that way because UM already runs a modest amount of "spread" stuff, as that word is kinda meaningless at this point. And Michigan has some RPOs in their package.That's fair. I'm an amateur but accept and respect the nuance. Rather than complain about play calls or scheme, I should have complained more broadly about an offense that doesn't work. Part of that is execution, but the 2018 squad had better cogs and a better-executing OL than the 2015 or 2016 editions. So it's not all offseason prep, execution and recruiting. Whether it's gameplan (drawn up during the week) or play choices (called up in the moment), I keep going back to the continuum of "un/predictability," which you may see as a popular (and conveniently vague) cop out.
I know, I know, this is my hobby horse, but we put so much on design and play-calling, when what we're really talking about it effectiveness. And these are much less tightly linked than we imagine. Technique, finer points of coaching and just playing better matter far more than having a third WR out there all the time.
Using the Bama offense as a comparison point for anything isn't all that useful. Their third-leading rusher might be the first back taken in the draft. They have five receivers ranked ahead of anyone Mich has but DPJ, and have a very rare QB. Garbage time started in the second quarter much of the season.
Penn State is a more interesting comparison. I don't know if they fully gave themselves to the RPO lifestyle, but they have the numbers of a team that did. They didn't run the ball much. The thing with RPOs is the defense tells you when you run and when you pass. Penn State also had the oddity it wasn't that efficent but was hilariously good at big plays. If they go that route and struggle, I wonder when we hear, "Why aren't they running it more?"
In the end, I worry we'll see what we want to see. If the offense is running spread and RPOs and isn't good, we'll see it as a Harbaugh thing, as we've discussed run-run-pass is more reaction than question of strategy. If it looks like this year's offense, with less under center, and it's good, the spread revolution will have arrived. This year's offense, at least the times I sat to break down the film, rarely suffered from a lack of diversity off offensive concepts. It had plenty, and often modern ones. They just we're being run well.
Pick something, run it well with good talent, that's always key.
Astonishingly now sounds like Pep Hamilton is staying put and taking a demotion to QB coach.I don't care about the money. It is of no consequence. The AD and ticket prices are effectively refractory to an extra $1MM in expenses. My main thoughts are about recruiting, in-game effects, McDaniels, and the WRs/Gattis:
He was told to find an NFL job. No one wanted him in the NFL so he’s staying put. Instead of having the stones to fire him, Harbaugh is letting one of his buddies stay on staff and collect $1.2+ million to coach QBs. Jesus f’ing Christ.
https://twitter.com/GoBlueBrooks/status/1091777884065316865?s=19sucks. hopefully he works it out and gets back with the team.
I don't care about the money. It is of no consequence. The AD and ticket prices are effectively refractory to an extra $1MM in expenses. My main thoughts are about recruiting, in-game effects, McDaniels, and the WRs/Gattis:And just like that, Pep Hamilton is extricated from the premises. Wow.
(1) this is a recruiting bummer. Michigan's QB recruiting has been acceptable under Pep, but he's otherwise dead weight in this department; McDaniels by comparison was a major boost
(2) I don't think this will impact the 2019 game days much at all if Gattis truly has control of O design and playcalling as we've been told
(3) I feel bad for McDaniels ... he finally made it, except "psych!"
(4) and I wonder about the WRs. Will they be coachless again, like in 2017, or is Gattis pulling double duty? There've been several recent OCs in CFB who've gone from all-star position coaches to sucky at both that position and coordinating because they were apparently spread too thin (Drevno and Warinner are immediate examples). Is that risk in play for Gattis from day one? Seems dumb if so.
sucks. hopefully he works it out and gets back with the team.Officially gone.
this shift of offensive philosophy with Gattis now in charge- if true- and I'm starting to believe it is- benefits Chris Evans most outside of those WR's. Evans has a real shot to become something special in this type of offense. Won't have that shot though if he's in hot water off the field.
Officially gone.HUGE blow. Can't be spun any other way.
Correction: Not officially gone. Officially suspended. Sounds academic, serious, and self-inflicted. But the door remains open to return. I'm not sure he'll pull it off. And clearly he won't participate in fall ball.I assume you mean spring ball? Fall ball being the most important of the seasonal balls
Pep Hamilton to the XFL.We must question the judgement of who hires all of these failed coaches. There are so very many.
:hee20hee20hee:
We must question the judgement of who hires all of these failed coaches. There are so very many.The XFL is the kind of leauge you'd expect to be filled with coaching rejects. Pep belongs in the XFL.
Just saw this Family Matters recruiting spoof. Lighthearted and grabs at my childhood programming, so it landed for me:Kinda of sick of all the twitter bs and nonsense like this Jim Harbaugh's program puts out. How about he just beats Ohio State for once and not shit the bed in a bowl game?
https://mobile.twitter.com/UMichFootball/status/1093261076496551937
Also: man am I glad that Don Brown will get a chance to work with Daxton. Phew!
Of course. I'm just not sure why we'd tie them together. I happen to have high expectations for Michigan football but also enjoy smiling. So I happened to like the Family Matters spoof, despite thoroughly disliking the result against OSU. But it takes all kinds to make a world. If a person wants specific unhappinesses to spoil other happinesses, that's their prerogative. The world has room for curmudgeons, too.I'm just sick of Harbaugh and his program. Nothing but hype. Where's the beef man? Get back to me when the guy beats Ohio State and wins the B1G. He needs to quit focusing on this dumbass little social media memes and the podcast and espousing about building statues to Tom Brady and just win some damn football games. I don't know who the hell this guy is. This isn't the same guy that was with the 49ers. I want that guy. The guy that didn't have a twitter or podcast and was a complete psycho on the sidelines blowing up on the refs that made bad calls and on players who f'd up. He needs to get off the meds and go back to being a complete psycho. That worked for him. This doesn't.
(2) I really dislike the idea of the Tom Brady statue. I think there's something dignified about a campus honoring zero sports people with statues. So I even opposed the Bo statue. But at least that one was one-of-a-kind on campus and of someone who's life is past. So, I oppose any future sports people statues, and doubly oppose them for the living.Why in the world would Michigan erect a Brady statue? He didn't lead them to a national title. He was 1-1 against Ohio State. He led them to a share of the 1998 conference title, but didn't go to the Rose Bowl either of his starting years. In fact, despite calling them "starting" years, he was battling Drew Henson for PT the entire time. He did lead the team to two bowl wins, but given that neither were Rose or BCSCG, it's not exactly statue-worthy.
Why in the world would Michigan erect a Brady statue?For the same reason every Michigan fan I know is a Patriots fan?? Hangin' the hat, man.
does Purdue have statues of any astronauts that possibly achieved something noteworthy after graduation?Figured that was coming next...
Why in the world would Michigan erect a Brady statue? He didn't lead them to a national title. He was 1-1 against Ohio State. He led them to a share of the 1998 conference title, but didn't go to the Rose Bowl either of his starting years. In fact, despite calling them "starting" years, he was battling Drew Henson for PT the entire time. He did lead the team to two bowl wins, but given that neither were Rose or BCSCG, it's not exactly statue-worthy.That's where I'm at. Even if Michigan is going to start putting up statues, which I have no problem with, although we should have learned our lesson by now in general of putting up statues of living people, Brady shouldn't be anywhere near the front of that line.
I recognize that he's gone on to attain some truly amazing heights, but he didn't do that at Michigan, he did that in New England. At Purdue, we revere Drew Brees for what he did at Purdue, not what he's done with the Saints.
If Michigan wants to put up statues, they should be statues of Michigan greats, not greats who happened to go to Michigan.
I'm just sick of Harbaugh and his program. Nothing but hype. Where's the beef man? Get back to me when the guy beats Ohio State and wins the B1G. He needs to quit focusing on this dumbass little social media memes and the podcast and espousing about building statues to Tom Brady and just win some damn football games. I don't know who the hell this guy is. This isn't the same guy that was with the 49ers. I want that guy. The guy that didn't have a twitter or podcast and was a complete psycho on the sidelines blowing up on the refs that made bad calls and on players who f'd up. He needs to get off the meds and go back to being a complete psycho. That worked for him. This doesn't.I get this and all of it. It's not just anger, it's not self defeating.
For the same reason every Michigan fan I know is a Patriots fan?? Hangin' the hat, man.You know me and I'm not a Patriots fan. I'm not even a Brady fan (several things about him are disappointing). But I am a Michigan fan (the only kind of football fan I am), and his Super Bowl wins are better than zero for Michigan, so I root for furtherance of their accumulation.
Maybe just HArbaugh for the sole purpose of recruiting.That's all it is, and I'm against it. But I'm against most statues, and perhaps all of them for the living, and that's even outside of sports, where there are countless fields more deserving.
Sounds to me that some Michigan fans are tired of the hype w/o the success. very understandableSeeing the depths Michigan is coming from, I'd call being one game away at the end of the season a form of realistic success. We've been that close to championships and playoffs in the final week in 2016 and 2018. It's statistically unrealistic that even if Michigan were to get zero better but just stay at that level that they wouldn't break through. That doesn't mean there aren't disappointments. I just don't think it's reasonable to cast his tenure as unsuccessful. We accelerated out of the doldrums and are now on the fringe. Sounds like 4 years of work to me.
Michigan takes a grad transfer from DE Mike Danna, formerly of CMU. Albeit against a lower level of competition, PFF rated him at a 91.3 last year, placing him as their overall 69th highest college football player in America. He's probably worth a one year scholarship flier.Well, couple things.
Howevvvver, I don't think Michigan's roster needed the help at DE nearly as much as at DT. I really don't think Michigan has sufficient skill or depth in the interior line to pull off another Top 5 or even Top 10 defense next year. Guess we'll see.
Instead, both starting cornerbacks, Sean Bunting and Xavier Crawford declared early for the draft; and then Mike Danna, who tied for 2nd in the MAC in sacks, entered the transfer portal as a grad transfer. Just to show the type of player he is, Michigan State, Iowa and Nebraska have apparently already contacted him.So he's (a) not a stretch at all, multiple Big Ten teams contacted him, including MSU and Iowa, who aren't exactly hurting for DL; and (b) nothing is in a vacuum, so if nothing else he isn't playing for a conference opponent next year.
It's amazing what can happen when kids with all the talent age a year and actually get a position coach.My guess is that it has a ton to do with the catchability of the passes being thrown, which is an unmeasurable but real thing. Lost in the MSU 2012 to 2013 fix was how many fewer drops MSU had in 2013 with the same WRs, but Cook, rather than Maxwell throwing the ball, even though Maxwell had the better measurables. Several guys noted the catchability of Cook's rotation.
That has me slightly nervous still for 2019 with McElwain leaving and Gattis pulling double duty. Obviously WRs are a specialty for him (and at a standout level nationally), but where's the rub? We've seen many examples of late where OCs were stretched too thin between coordinating and their positional specialty. If Gattis masters both, I'll be over the moon, but it's too easy to remember what happened with Drevno at M or Warinner at OSU** who were to go in expecting the best.
**(highest level OL assistants who bit off too much, becoming meh at both OC and OL at the end)
With almost everyone back on offense (only 1 OL, 1 RB and 1 TE left), there's a lot of potential for a fun first year for Gattis. Especially with this QB, these WRs, and by far the best OL of Harbaugh's tenure.Agreed re: QB, WR, OL. But I thought basically every RB is gone (Higdon, Evans, Samuels). Isn't it just Tru Wilson and the freshmen?
Agreed re: QB, WR, OL. But I thought basically every RB is gone (Higdon, Evans, Samuels). Isn't it just Tru Wilson and the freshmen?Correct. Higdon graduated and Samuels got kicked off the team. Evans is suspended and off the team, there is a small chance he could be back however. It's basically hot-shot true frosh Zach Chabornnet or bust. RB is slim pickings. Evans' academic issues really couldn't have come at a worse time for him. IF it's to be believed Gattis has full control and is changing the offense drastically- he'd have been the guy to benefit most outside of the WR crew. Evans' ability to make plays in space and run pass routes and catch the ball is as good as I've ever seen for a Michigan RB. Scratch that- probably the best I've ever seen from a Michigan back. Really huge blow if he isn't able to get back.
Sounds like Luigi Vilain may be the healthiest he's ever been for a football camp. Music to my ears. Of course, Michigan doesn't have a DE problem, but we've been clamoring for this kid to get better forever.will be great for depth. Throw 10-15 pounds on Josh Uche and start him at the weakside and start Kwitty Paye at the strong side and the pass rush really shouldn't skip a beat despite losing Gary and Winovich. Aidan Hutchinson should take it up a notch in his 2nd year and back-up Paye. The key will be seeing if Uche can step his game up a notch and put on some weight and hold up vs the run. If Josh Uche does that- DE's will be A OK. It's the DT's that worry me to death.
This is the first or second offseason since maybe 2006 or 2003 that Michigan is favored by Vegas in every single game. I know opposing fans have the bias that Michigan is overranked in everything, but it's highly unusual this century for Michigan to be favored over OSU at all, let alone this much.The offense has nowhere to go but up. Liked the hire of Gattis. Questions still remain just how much control he'll have and also- how will he do as the sole OC when it's all him now.
- -8.5 vs ND
- -6 @Wisconsin
- -13.5 vs MSU
- -6.5 @PSU
- -6.5 vs OSU
Best to play 4 and save the year.he's going to play this year, he's just going to miss spring ball unfortunately.
Is it truly legal under NCAA rules for a donor to buy an international vacation for possibly 100 plus football players and staff that is not offered free of charge to nonathletes?It must be permitted, but I don't understand the nuts and bolts of it. On the surface, it looks like an extra benefit, not afforded to the student body. But, nobody's in NCAA jail, so it must be OK.
I realize it doesn't seem to have advanced Michigan football, but if we did that at Iowa, Wisconsin would be screaming.
Is it truly legal under NCAA rules for a donor to buy an international vacation for possibly 100 plus football players and staff that is not offered free of charge to nonathletes?Yes. It's just a gift that the NCAA allows (arguably educational), occurring in a window the NCAA allows. Anyone that wants can do the same.
I realize it doesn't seem to have advanced Michigan football, but if we did that at Iowa, Wisconsin would be screaming.
Not if it risks further injury. I'd rest him until the last 4 games and then play him.If that's the medical report, any coach in America would do the same. But meniscus tears, especially mild ones, are like a gnat in the face. He had an excellent senior season *with* the injury, for example. The only serious part is experiential - that he's missing spring camp because of operation timing.
Not if it risks further injury. I'd rest him until the last 4 games and then play him.Yeah, except it doesn’t. His injury isn’t that serious.
Is it truly legal under NCAA rules for a donor to buy an international vacation for possibly 100 plus football players and staff that is not offered free of charge to nonathletes?The donor didn't buy it. He just donated to the school at the time when Michigan took their players on this trip. Purely coincidental.
I realize it doesn't seem to have advanced Michigan football, but if we did that at Iowa, Wisconsin would be screaming.
The donor didn't buy it. He just donated to the school at the time when Michigan took their players on this trip. Purely coincidental.The least schools could do is give their unpaid laborers a free trip during spring break when they actually have time off.
Evans is suspended and off the team, there is a small chance he could be back howeverDid not know Evans was coming back,but he is exciting.Kind of reminded me of Curtis Samuel with out the surrounding cast
Did not know Evans was coming back,but he is exciting.Kind of reminded me of Curtis Samuel with out the surrounding castThere's no guarantee he's coming back. But his situation is 100% academic bad kid decision making, he's still enrolled to fix it, and if he does so before running out of eligibility, he'll rejoin the team.
Did not know Evans was coming back,but he is exciting.Kind of reminded me of Curtis Samuel with out the surrounding castHe’s not coming back for sure. He’s got a chance to come back though.
Is there any discernible grumbling about the state of the program with Michigan fans (beyond what is always present)?Hard to see them finishing 8-5 this year. If they did- man Harbaugh's seat would be white hot.
What if they finish 8-5 this year?
I'm just curious as to when the seat would get really hot. Obviously, 8-5 is not likely, 9-4 is perhaps somewhat possible, and 10-3 is not hard to see happening.8-5 and life gets annoying for Harbaugh. 10-3 and nothing really changes. Ten wins is the plateau/status quo range. Anything over 10 in the regular season and there's a strong chance Michigan is in the BTCG and things are super peachy, because winning that means both a championship and a likely CoFoPO bid.
I see 4 regular season games that COULD be losses. Lose half of those and a bowl game ...
Hard to see them finishing 8-5 this year. If they did- man Harbaugh's seat would be white hot.Good points if anything else the schedule favors "M".As you mention it's always better to get Bucky the 1st half of the season.The earlier the better before they get traction.Also not bad timing headed to Happy Valley,as I have no idea what to expect there.I'd imagine a drop off from the previous 2 seasons.Find out how good Franklin did on the recruiting trail
Schedule sets up nicely as they get ND, MSU, Iowa, and Ohio State all at home. They have to play Wisconsin on the road but it's early in the season which to me is a plus. I'd rather play Wisconsin 3rd week of the season and be fresh vs having to play them late in the season banged up. Wisconsin's style of offense also plays right into Don Brown's hands. It's those spread you out, tempo offenses that Brown seems to have no idea how to slow down. Other than that the only road game they really have is Penn State. And not sure how good Penn State is even going to be this year.
Wisconsin's style of offense also plays right into Don Brown's hands. It's those spread you out, tempo offenses that Brown seems to have no idea how to slow down.I don't agree with that. He came back down to earth at the very end of last year because Michigan had two major holes as DT and 3rd CB. Well that and ... nobody had feasted on it before the OSU game and he had the #1 defense in the country. Obviously I wish he had seen the invisible problem, but I can't hate him for ignoring the invisible problem.
8-5 and life gets annoying for Harbaugh. 10-3 and nothing really changes. Ten wins is the plateau/status quo range. Anything over 10 in the regular season and there's a strong chance Michigan is in the BTCG and things are super peachy, because winning that means both a championship and a likely CoFoPO bid.I'd agree with this. I'm sure some fans would be very frustrated if he finished 10-3 again and lost to OSU- but hard to see them firing him after the guy had four 10 win seasons in 5 years when the program was basically a complete dumpster fire and joke for a decade under RR/Hoke.
I don't agree with that. He came back down to earth at the very end of last year because Michigan had two major holes as DT and 3rd CB. Well that and ... nobody had feasted on it before the OSU game and he had the #1 defense in the country. Obviously I wish he had seen the invisible problem, but I can't hate him for ignoring the invisible problem.It's not an invisible problem. It's a glaring problem that few teams on Michigan's schedule under Brown have actually had the personnel to exploit. Brown plays WAY too much man to man coverage across the board. He makes it easy pitch and catch for the QB/WR's because he's not mixing up the coverage enough and he asks marginally athletic LB's and safeties to do things they have no business doing like covering elite RB's and slot WR's. Someone like Mike McCray should NEVER, EVER, NEVER be manned up one on one single coverage vs an ELITE ELITE athlete like Saquon Barkley. That is a LOSE situation 100% of the time. Devin Gil isn't slow at all by the way. He's very fast for a LB'er.
Also, his reputation at BC was exclusively as a destroyer of spread offenses. And he showed us that in 2016 when he ground OSU's offense to a halt. Overturning all of that because of three games (2017 PSU, 2018 OSU/UF) is silly when there's such a better explanation. That his personnel was less perfect than he knew based on their performance in every other game.
I trust he'll iron out a lot of that this offseason just as he ironed out a lot of the issues versus 2017 PSU last year. But (1) this is also the worst personnel he's ever had at Michigan at DT and (2) my most legit gripe will remain unchanged: he's too loyal to slow upperclassmen like Gil and Watson.
It has to do with expectations. A fan base wanting nothing less than an NC will likely be disappointed (I know this). A fan based that expects at least a division title and a W over the main rival has a better chance of being at least "OK". I was thinking that 10-3 is probably "break even", better is good, and less than that is going to generate grumbling.10-3 just maintains status quo. He does worse- his seat starts to get really hot. He does better- 11-2 or 12-1- he's a hero again.
I'd agree with this. I'm sure some fans would be very frustrated if he finished 10-3 again and lost to OSU- but hard to see them firing him after the guy had four 10 win seasons in 5 years when the program was basically a complete dumpster fire and joke for a decade under RR/Hoke.Time to win. All the players are his now. There is no excuse anymore. Now that he is focused on actual coaching, instead of all the other BS, it will be interesting to see how he does this year. We know the guy can coach.
Benjamin St-Juste done with a medical hardship. I remember his recruitment - that's too badYeah, it really is too bad. I had high hopes for him. He was an unranked sleeper prospect from Canada that Michigan found early and after solid performances on the camp/combine circuit and the HS All-Star games his rankings in the recruit sites exploded. 247's own rankings they had him in the top 100 players in the nation. Hard to find legitimate 6'3 DB's that have the hips and feet to play CB in college and beyond.
I didn't get to watch, but from reading it seems the offense is very different structurally. The I-formation is gone. They've gone more spread. Two-back sets were almost nonexistent, and for the few examples they were in split-backs formation. Sounds like 3WR formations ruled the day. There were some 2TE sets, but even those were not very Harbaugh-like as the TEs were both out wide.Wow, they've got an offense that looks like lots of offenses. That’s ... something I guess.
Wow, they've got an offense that looks like lots of offenses. That’s ... something I guess.Why the snark? This counts as news. The offense may be ordinary, it could even suck, but the fact that it is different now joins accumulating evidence that it will also be different in the fall. And ever since the Gattis hire that's remained an open question.
Why the snark? This counts as news. The offense may be ordinary, it could even suck, but the fact that it is different now joins accumulating evidence that it will also be different in the fall. And ever since the Gattis hire that's remained an open question.It's hitting a small hobby horse of mine. Namely this:
Chipping away at enduring questions doesn't do it for you?
We've had that conversation - recently even. I liked your take and thought I had assimilated it. This time my claim was different. For however cyclic and dull, I went no further than concluding the thing you can interpret about the newness on offense is that there actually is a new offense. No value judgement or prediction on the good/bad continuuum. Just acknowledging it's different in ownership and structure. Despite the dullness that's newsworthy because it runs counter to many predictions, for example that Harbaugh wouldn't "hand over the keys" or permit a no huddle offense.That’s fair. My knee just jerks hard at it. Maybe a bit over the top. I mean, his offense has always been interesting in its way.
As for an actual value judgment: the QB, I'm surprised to see you describe Patterson as meh-accurate. 65%, 22-7 (td-int) seemed peachy to me.
Difference in scheme doesn't equal difference in quality.Amen,fundamentals,mechanics,talent always factor in - the more things change the more they remain the same
Last year's Michigan offense was stupid diverse.I think this is an under-appreciated issue in the college ranks.
<snip>
(Last year, the offense might've been a bit too diverse, which is another story)
Technique, talent, execution and little things matter worlds more than the broad strokes of scheme. It's news, yes, but it doesn't say that much about the good to bad axis. It's a stand-in for hope. It just is. The "we're opening up the offense" is the counterpart to "the more aggressive defense."
I think this is an under-appreciated issue in the college ranks.agree 100%.
If Michigan's offense was too diverse for a bunch of student-athletes who have limited amounts of time to devote to actually practicing their scheme to execute it well, then the offense goes from "Good" to "Bad" on that axis VERY quickly.
At the NFL level, I think scheme is more important. You have professionals who have the time to practice and learn to execute the entire playbook, so every player knows their responsibility on every snap. You have more reps.
That's just not the case in college. Sometimes making the offense simpler makes it better, just because the players are able to execute.
Tempo and not necessarily simplicity- but not trying to do too much matters a hell of a lot in college. Look at Oregon under Chip Kelly. That was an offensive machine and they went fast and didn't try to do too much.I was going to mention tempo... One of the things that Kelly always talked about is that not only did they play fast, they practiced fast. That way they got more reps in practice than other teams did.
Kelly would IIRC try to run practice non-stop and then go over what needed to change in film study, which I think doesn't count as practice time so it wasn't part of the restrictions on how much time you can practice.I believe that is incorrect. I think scheduled film study with coaches and also scheduled chalk talk with coaches counts as practice time. During fall camp Michigan has these infamous 4 hour practices and makes it work (re: the limit on allowable camp hours) by 100% cutting out chalk talk and organized film study from the days with 4 hour practices. On those days, if given 4 structured hours, Harbaugh spends all those seconds on the field.
I believe that is incorrect. I think scheduled film study with coaches and also scheduled chalk talk with coaches counts as practice time. During fall camp Michigan has these infamous 4 hour practices and makes it work (re: the limit on allowable camp hours) by 100% cutting out chalk talk and organized film study from the days with 4 hour practices. On those days, if given 4 structured hours, Harbaugh spends all those seconds on the field.Yeah, you're probably right. Maybe they only were on-field for 90 minutes of their allotted practice session and the idea was to get as many reps in those 90 minutes and then review them in the film room. But that they really tried to avoid stalling practices for on-field instruction unless absolutely necessary, so they didn't have 40 people standing around while one player was getting chewed out.
Everyone has a different system.
Brandon Peters transferringsurprised it didn't happen sooner. McCaffrey jumped him last year to be QB 2 and there were points in the games where they put in the true frosh Milton before Peters.
Met Chase Winovich at a charity event tonight, really, really nice kid.perfect fit for the Patriots. He just might wind up having a better career than lots of guys that were picked way before him.
perfect fit for the Patriots. He just might wind up having a better career than lots of guys that were picked way before him.Told my extreme Patriots Fan wife when they pick him that I hated the pick. She asked why, isn't he that good? I said no because he will fit in great with the Patriots.
surprised it didn't happen sooner. McCaffrey jumped him last year to be QB 2 and there were points in the games where they put in the true frosh Milton before Peters.Doubt it. Purdue's QB room is crowded as it is.
Kinda shocked that Peters didn't work out. My guess is he transfers home to Purdue and kills it under Brohm.
Doubt it. Purdue's QB room is crowded as it is.for some reason I was thinking that Sindelar was a SR. Purdue probably wouldn't be a great fit for him then. I think Peters has his degree so he'd be able to play right away wherever he goes. Ohio State has like 1 legit QB on scholly right. Maybe he transfers there lol.
While Peters is obviously very talented, is it expected he can come in on day 1 and unseat Elijah Sindelar? Both have 2 years eligibility remaining, and while I think Sindelar wants to be in the NFL in 2020, there are 3 good QB recruits behind him already.
So Peters would have to be thinking that he can beat out Sindelar in 2019, or hope Sindelar does so well he goes to the pros in 2020 and that his natural ability will put him ahead of Purdue's 3 very good underclassmen, two of which were hand-picked by Brohm in recruiting.
for some reason I was thinking that Sindelar was a SR. Purdue probably wouldn't be a great fit for him then. I think Peters has his degree so he'd be able to play right away wherever he goes. Ohio State has like 1 legit QB on scholly right. Maybe he transfers there lol.Sindelar is a 5th-year RS senior now, but due to injuries has already been granted a 6th year by the NCAA. So he has an extra year.
Is Oliver Martin going to transfer? Kid should have either stayed home, or went to Madison, if so.Yeah crazy that Iowa, UW, MSU, others, built a relationship with him. Harbaugh shows up, offers him, jumps in a pool, and that relationship doesn't stick.
Yeah crazy that Iowa, UW, MSU, others, built a relationship with him. Harbaugh shows up, offers him, jumps in a pool, and that relationship doesn't stick.I mean let’s be honest too, it was a bad move on his part to go join a WR class that consisted of DPJ, Tarik Black, and Nico Collins. DPJ was a 5* and the #1 WR recruit of that class and Black and Nico we’re both 4*, top 100ish overall players.
Unless he goes to an FCS, or below program, he must sit out one-year.Maybe if this were 2014
WR room is very crowded in Madison. Not sure about MSU's WR situation, but I have to believe he's going to Iowa. That being the case, he will not get a waiver. Those are reserved for helmet schools only.Is it though?
But, I don't want to turn this thread into a Wisconsin one.You're gettin' soft man
It strikes me as rare that a wide received can have a large impact on an offense. It happens when you have a guy who is truly elite such that he has to be found before every snap and probably doubled, or lined up with your best guy on D. Most of them in top programs strike me as capable and very good but not elite. Some have good hands, run good route, have elite speed and cutting ability, and length, whatever, but few have the entire package.Agreed. WR is a completely dependent position. Needs the line and QB and RBs helping him to get his.
A very good, but not elite, running back or quarter back might have a greater impact on the game than a very good but not elite WR.
Yeah, they have a lot of guys who are good/very good. I expect to see the WR's look a whole lot better this season. But, I don't want to turn this thread into a Wisconsin one.Ha, I was scrolling up and just assumed you were here flattering the Michigan receivers.
I still have a difficult time understanding why Oliver Martin would transfer after playing for Michigan his redshirt freshman year. Unless he goes to an FCS, or below program, he must sit out one-year. Either something is very wrong for him academically at Michigan, or he is a very poor fit on the football team, or he is very home sick. When I visited Ann Arbor it seemed so much like Iowa City that it is hard to imagine a guy from Iowa City would not feel right at home in Ann Arbor.That's right. Based on business prospects and logic, it was not a good idea to leave. Especially since at least one and perhaps as many as three of DPJ/Black/Collins will be clearing space after this year. So he was nearly guaranteed to be a starter in 2020 by staying at Michigan.
I wish Oliver Martin well, wherever he goes.
Here's the site, and it has the years of each logo.AC can you chime in on this?
http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/ (http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/)
I thought the block M with "Michigan" across it was a major logo, too, but I was told by UM people here the yellow block M has always meant 'Michigan'. What I'm doing is trying to use the various logos through the years used by schools, as my team cards go back to 1971. So I use the big red N for Nebraska until the mid-90s, where it's the red N with black "Huskers" across it. I use the elephant through the A until a certain year for Alabama until it changed to the fancy A within a circle as it is now, etc.
I guess my question is that if I was a Michigan fan and bought this game with my beloved 1973 Michigan team set in it, would I prefer the yellow block M or the one with the wolverine on it? Which would seem more correct?
Here's the site, and it has the years of each logo.The plain Block M has always been a logo, but I'd argue it wasn't the primary logo until the last decade or so. Before that the MICHIGAN inside the box was clearly the primary logo. Just for simple form it wasn't necessarily used on hats or what not. But I do believe the Wolverine was at least co-primary through the 80s and early 90s.
http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/ (http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/)
I thought the block M with "Michigan" across it was a major logo, too, but I was told by UM people here the yellow block M has always meant 'Michigan'. What I'm doing is trying to use the various logos through the years used by schools, as my team cards go back to 1971. So I use the big red N for Nebraska until the mid-90s, where it's the red N with black "Huskers" across it. I use the elephant through the A until a certain year for Alabama until it changed to the fancy A within a circle as it is now, etc.
I guess my question is that if I was a Michigan fan and bought this game with my beloved 1973 Michigan team set in it, would I prefer the yellow block M or the one with the wolverine on it? Which would seem more correct?
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Well that's pretty hamhanded and stupid. How long until we get the ubiquitous "I was hacked?"Actually seems like it was just straight up made up, and the screen grab was a fake
Patterson is way too classy and smart- obvious fake. He is a good kid and will be a beast this year.I see what your doing. Very good.
Aint drinking that OL Kool Aid.I'm with you. Not going to believe it until I see it. Ed Warriner is a helluva an OL coach, one of the best in the business, but they've got to prove it before I buy into the hype.
I don't think Michigan needs elite tackle pass pro to have a great offense. Maybe my view is off, but I think they're aiming to shift to wrecking people on the ground and through the air by RPOs. Which shifts focus to the strength of the team -- Bredeson/Ruiz/Onwenu, Shea, and the WRs.You make a great point there.
Aside from the no-huddle, loss of the fullback position, and drop in TE snaps, perhaps the next best heuristic for the extent to which Harbaugh has given over the offense to Gattis will be the percentage of pass plays that are late-developing. I'm expecting that fraction to drop by a lot. WIth it being replaced by short and intermediate stuff -- much of it likely going over the top.
A small clarification. You will almost assured see very few 4 WR sets and almost no 5 WR sets.
You make a great point there.
As long as they really make a huge shift in the offense with Gattis and they spread it out 4 & 5 WR's more and sit the TE's and FB's on the sidelines and go with tempo and try to get the ball out of Shea's hands quickly- they'll be able to hide Runyan a lot better. Not too worried about the RT spot to be honest. Steuber is a massive, powerful human being with long arms and Jalen Mayfield is like a proto-type of what you want an offensive tackle in todays game to look like physically. So is the other RS frosh tackle Ryan Hayes for that matter. That's what your tackles ought to look like. It's the LT spot that worries me to be honest. Runyan is 6'3.5" MAX and he's got short arms.
(Interestingly Mich broke out a look with all five guys wide semi-often last season)I remember those. I'm not sure the definition of semioften but think we both wish we had those numbers. Relevant here: I suspect (relatively) many of those were slow-developing plays.
Did Urban just say which conference was best?SEC is the best imo.
I kind of would have respected him more if he had just said "well, I'm gone, so they have a shot."Lol. That’s more like something Jim would say. Urban handles himself way too professionally, is way too media savvy and has too much class to pop off at the mouth like that. Urban is a politician.
Lol. That’s more like something Jim would say. Urban handles himself way too professionally, is way too media savvy and has too much class to pop off at the mouth like that. Urban is a politician.There's no maybe about it,he sure as hell blew the Media day last year.Had he not tripped over his tongue IMO he'd still be HC in C-Bus
Now maybe he bends the truth a little bit, maybe he lies, maybe he looks the other way on things sometimes- but the guy sure as hell knows how to handle himself with the media/public. Jim? He’s just a weirdo who will say/do anything.
Ambry Thomas has colitis. No word on whether it is ulcerative (chronic) or infectious (acute). The timeline, with first concerns popping up around May/June, may line up better with the chronic condition, unfortunately. He gained then lost 20-25 pounds this offseason, landing him back at his playing weight from last year.
CB might as well be the only position I'm worried about now. It's surely not RB. And I'm getting more sanguine about DT. But CB has almost no one behind Ambry and Levert.
Oh Harbaugh has been accused of being a liar, so I don't think Urbs has a monopoly there.Everyone on earth has lied before. I think the issue here isn't presence/absence, it's extent, stakes and recidivism.
Everyone on earth has lied before. I think the issue here isn't presence/absence, it's extent, stakes and recidivism.Eh, hard to swing a cat without finding someone that says Harbaugh hasn't been a square dealer.
Oh Harbaugh has been accused of being a liar, so I don't think Urbs has a monopoly there.This is my third-favorite OSU-Mich sparring point behind the Dean-Pipkins runoff showdown and which coach had the more terrible situations he turned around in past jobs.
This is my third-favorite OSU-Mich sparring point behind the Dean-Pipkins runoff showdown and which coach had the more terrible situations he turned around in past jobs.(https://i.imgur.com/mpqB2HK.png)
Eh, hard to swing a cat without finding someone that says Harbaugh hasn't been a square dealer.I specified my comments are about the extent, stakes, and recidivism of lying. You are still focused on presence/absense.
I specified my comments are about the extent, stakes, and recidivism of lying. You are still focused on presence/absense.I've never found Harbaugh to be very candid. He can be salty, but that's different than candid. For example, in his latest controversy I very much liked him vocalizing what he thinks the process should be, but found it very offputting that he would pretend Michigan has no say so in his guys transferring. For lack of a better word, that's a bitch ass thing to say. Do I give him points for vocaling a policy that would help players and say he's candid, or say he's a liar because he says one thing but his actions say another? *shrug*
Also, this conversation started with the premise that tact and candor are inversely proportional trains and that, on the continuum from
> tact -------- candor < ,
Meyer falls closer to the left than Harbaugh. Do you disagree with that, and why?
You are still focused on presence/absence. Focusing on extent/stakes/recidivism would involve comparing Meyer and Harbaugh on this. For example on the severity of their scandals, whether they lied about those, how often those worst scandals appeared, and how far back in their careers those scandals began. Go ahead and focus that if you like.I am. I certainly see very little difference in the scandals, other than how the media reacts to them. The Urban Meyer "lying scandal" was mostly about his statement that Zach Smith had no felony charges (which was true) without admitting that he was aware of at least some sort of accusations. That's not really lying about something very important, IMO.
Would you think 9-4 is about as bad a season as it could be (barring some bizarre injury bug)?9-4 would be a disaster. Especially if they lost to Ohio State....again. Probably only Georgia is ready to play with Clemson/Bama. Michigan is still not there yet.
Lose every loseable game and the bowl game, maybe see an upset somewhere. Is this team able to play with Clemson and Bama yet? I guess that's why they play them, my original quote there.
year 2 with Gattis could be much better, if he can find the right QBShea should pick up that offense fast. That's the style of offense he came from at Ole Miss and the style of offense he played at all throughout high school. It was this pro-style offense under Harbaugh that was completely foreign to him.
9-4 would be losses to OSU, ND, and PSU, plus a bowl game against say Florida. I had that as the worst they could do, barring something weird.Not sure how good PSU will be. That white out at night on the road is a TOUGH game. Harbaugh seems to have Franklin's number however.
Losing to OSU this year, at home, with a senior QB in Patterson and with no Urban Meyer on the other sideline = unacceptable. Harbaugh will start to lose me if that happens.Oh please oh please oh please,Puhle-e-e-ze
5* true frosh Chris Hinton is in the two deep at DT.I don't think [EDIT] Solomon would have made much of a difference (he barely played last year and has been veiledly accused of having an allergy to hard work). I certainly wouldn't guarantee a starting spot for him. He'd improve the depth, admittedly. Then for Gary, would *love* to have him. But DE is not a weakness for this team. It's not even on the radar.
Really sucks that Rashan Gary left early and Aubrey Solomon transferred to Tennessee. Michigan has the worst luck with this crap. I was hoping that Gary would come back after a hugely disappointing junior year where he missed most of the year with injury. Solomon was only a true soph that was just starting to really hit his stride. Played a ton as a true frosh, dealt with some injuries as a true soph and then inexplicably transfers to Tennessee. I tell you what, this DL would look a lot different right now if you had Gary and Solomon in that mix.
9-4 would be losses to OSU, ND, and PSU, plus a bowl game against say Florida. I had that as the worst they could do, barring something weird.I'd say a home loss to MSU ranks as more likely than @PSU. Either would portend a disappointing year.
I don't think Hudson would have made much of a difference (he barely played last year and has been veiledly accused of having an allergy to hard work).So both you and Harbaugh thinks the kid wasn't having emotional problems.Great,good to hear,I don't know that he was and neither do you.
Losing to OSU this year, at home, with a senior QB in Patterson and with no Urban Meyer on the other sideline = unacceptable. Harbaugh will start to lose me if that happens.Even if Ryan Day is a lesser coach than Meyer (feels likely) and if OSU will eventually equilibrate to a new lower level as he takes over (if this first premise is true, this would also seem likely), then this could be the most difficult year to beat Ryan Day. I see no choice but to give Harbaugh a pass if he loses this game. I'd say Harbaugh only needs to get 1 of the next 3 and maybe 2 of the next 5.
So both you and Harbaugh thinks the kid wasn't having emotional problems.Great,good to hear,I don't know that he was and neither do you.I'll go back and edit mine. I typed Hudson. I meant Aubrey Solomon. The post was about Solomon and how losing him as a DT was perhaps not that big of a deal.
There will be a lot more games this year that will capture my fascination. Should be fun.I agree,Certainly seems to be a lot of uncertainty which should be a rather exciting season from a fans standpoint
Georgia could be 9-4 just as easily, losses to ND, Florida, Auburn, and the bowl game. Georgia could lose to A&M as well in Athens. The ND game in Athens might be epic, the crowd will be ready, it's a night game.no Bama for the Dawgs this season?
Auburn is at Auburn, a series where curiously the visiting team seems to win more often than not.
Anyone else worried about the game with Army? You should be.They definitely have my attention. Especially against a young defense. Oklahoma's close call versus Army last year seemed to be primarily due to a rough OU defense.
Anyone else worried about the game with Army? You should be.I don't know. These are the sort of offenses that Don Brown's heavy blitzing and pretty much 100% man to man across the board seem to just shut down and beat the hell out of. Don Brown's defenses look amazing for like 9 or 10 games during a season. But then there is always 1 or 2 games a year where his defenses just get absolutely shredded. PSU in 2017 and OSU in 2018 come to mind immediately. In both those games the offenses exposed that man to man across the board scheme badly. Barkley and Geisicki abused Michigan's LB's in man coverage and DaeSean Hamilton absued Michigan's safeties in the slot. Saquon Barkley vs Mike McCray 1 on 1 in man coverage...LMAO. Poor bastard never stood a chance vs Barkley. OSU ran a lot of mesh and crossing routes to get those speedy WR's free. Got away with a few pick plays, but Brandon Watson and the safeties were obliterated trying to keep up man to man against those OSU WR's.
CB is the far away leading concern, then DT.Those are still the top two concerns, and I'm struggling to think of which other concerns are in view of these. Unfortunately, Ambry Thomas is now out with colitis and Dwumfour is still meaningfully less than 100% (foot?) ... so that's crummy.
Those are still the top two concerns, and I'm struggling to think of which other concerns are in view of these. Unfortunately, Ambry Thomas is now out with colitis and Dwumfour is still meaningfully less than 100% (foot?) ... so that's crummy.Ambry should be back. It's just a matter of when. Really sucks, because he's brimming with talent and this looked like it might be his breakout year. He's probably the fastest, most athletic CB that Michigan has had under Harbaugh yet. Jourdan Lewis was an excellent CB and so is LaVert Hill, but Ambry is taller and faster than those guys. The only guy in the same ballpark is David Long, and Ambry is about an inch taller and has another gear than Long. Long wasn't slow by any means, Ambry is just really fast.
Apparently Luke Fickell asked Harbaugh to lie to the NCAA about Hudson leaving because he was "forced" to play OL. I don't know which part of Fickell's thought process was more broken -- (a) inclination to get a coach you don't like to lie for you or, even if it worked, that (b) the NCAA would believe in the structure of this lie:At least- that’s the story on Michigan fan boards/ if you are to believe them.
"Hudson left A2 because he was forced to play OL and transferred to Cincinnati ... where he is excited to play OL"
At least- that’s the story on Michigan fan boards/ if you are to believe them.You're absolutely right. Since you and I are neither named Harbaugh, nor Fickell, we can't be *certain* of the truth. We can only collect signals. On this there are two:
Then you also have to believe that Day at OSU and Saban at Bama lied to get their transferring players eligible at UC.
Methinks it is much more nuanced- but knowing Fickell I am highly confident he asked nobody to lie
Harbaugh has said in the past he believes transfers should be allowed to leave a school with instant eligibility once, no matter the circumstances. He repeated that on Tuesday. But he expressed doubt last month (https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/university-of-cincinnati/2019/07/19/james-hudson-jim-harbaugh-depression-remarks-cant-serious/1783523001/) when asked during a radio interview with ESPNU whether college athletes should be allowed to gain immediate eligibility under the current rules in place due to mental-health or depression-related conditions.This is a weird part of your post. You seem to imply there's an inconsistency here. I don't think there is. Harbaugh is wanting a future world (with a rule change to get us there!) where every player gets one freebie (instant eligibility) transfer. And he's lobbying for that rule change. Until it happens, he's saying he'd prefer us to be rigid about the rules we have.
What did Habaugh say about the twisted web we weave or sumsuch
Yes. He wants a new rule where everyone is eligible no matter the circumstances. But we don't have that rule yet, so he and everyone else is stuck with the rules we have.Man are you thick there is nothing to confirm or deny.Harbaugh - the same asshole that started the shitstorm at media days - you remember that right?While Harbaugh has said he wasn’t talking about Hudson specifically, it was easy for some to connect the dots because Hudson had an appeal to play right away at Cincinnati denied then later said he left the Michigan football program because of depression.,so the kid,his mother and Fickell are all full of crap.Answer my inquiry.AGAIN(3rd time) Harbaugh has said in the past he believes transfers should be allowed to leave a school with instant eligibility once, no matter the circumstances._Obviously that was bullshit or this conversation doesn't takes place
Meanwhile, Fickell still hasn't denied Harbaugh's claim. Maybe he'll change his mind and deny it soon.
You don't need to be so angry about disagreeing. Clearly we haven't persuaded one another despite trying our darnedest. Es ok.Not angry strongly pointing out the script is getting flipped and some have been less than candid - go have an IPA
Not angryTyping "didn't say shit" in one post and calling me thick in another is a sign the conversation has lost its composure. At least it's a sign we should discuss something else. Don't worry. Inevitably this will come up later and we'll both say the same things all over again. If we stop with a handshake now it's more friendly and efficient.
Fickell's account of the conversation differed.I hadn't seen this quote. You're right, he is addressing it, but -- while I don't expect you to agree with me -- my interpretation is that what he's saying is consistent with what Harbaugh said.
(...)
"I’ve got notes if you want them," he said.
(...)
So, as you can see, Fickell DID deny it. So, your assessment the he “asked him to lie” is quite a stretch.
Typing "didn't say shit" in one post and calling meOK my bad how about stubbornly inaccuratethickin another is a sign the conversation has lost its composure. At least it's a sign we should discuss something else. Don't worry. Inevitably this will come up later and we'll both say the same things all over again. If we stop with a handshake now it's more friendly and efficient.
I hadn't seen this quote. You're right, he is addressing it, but -- while I don't expect you to agree with me -- my interpretation is that what he's saying is consistent with what Harbaugh said.I think the “ I have notes if you want them”was for when he was asked about Harbaugh’ s version of the conversation.
Harbaugh is basically complaining that another coach called him and said
- "hey you know that thing you're filling out, here, take my notes on how to do it."
And in that quote Fickell is saying literally that:
- "I've got notes if you want them."
It's not rocket science, Fickell (and the kid and his mom) said Michigan wasn't going to help and Harbaugh confirmed it. This nonsense about asking him to lie is nonsense and mostly besides the point.Michigan doesn't need to help. Not their problem. There is only a problem when a school tries to get in the way and try to block a transfer- like Alabama did to that kid who transferred to Georgia.
You"re right but Harbaugh doesn't need to accuse someone else of being slippery when they weren't.I don't necessarily agree with the immediate transfer thing.These kids have enough time to figure out where the want to go.There should be like a 4-5-6 game penatly.The kid transferring to play football some where else isn't going to ease his depression.Unless the circumstances are unbearable.But Harbaugh was on record as saying he's for immediate transfers,so take the high road and sign his release or in JH's case don't.Michigan signed his release. Harbaugh didn't say anything. He repsonded to something Fickell said. We wouldn't even be talking about any of this if Fickell didn't open his fat mouth. Better idea: the coach at Cincinnati should shut up and focus on coaching his team.
The thing is Black is the one who blasts out of the gate,if he doesn't get hurt Patterson will have absolutely no excuses.I could throw lawn jarts to these guys and they'd come down with itthis is what has me salivating at the mouth. As good as DPJ and Nico looked last year, Tarik Black is a flat out better receiver than both of those guys. He's had some really crappy luck with injuries. If he can just stay healthy- look out.
this is what has me salivating at the mouth. As good as DPJ and Nico looked last year, Tarik Black is a flat out better receiver than both of those guys. He's had some really crappy luck with injuries. If he can just stay healthy- look out.Collins from what I watched of him seemed to develop as the season progressed not only his ability to get open but to hang on to the ball.However if Black stays healthy that could spell problems,but I'm wrong quite frequently so there's that
Nico and DPJ both looked great as true sophs last year playing in a very restrictive offense for WR's and with a new QB that was learning a new offensive system on the fly that was completely foreign to him.
I don't understand that fear. If the reports are correct that the offense is already transformed -- no longer beholden to full clock huddling, capable of fast snaps, erasure of the fullback, emphasized RPO game, and at least the mere attempt to have pass and rush plays be integrated to the normal extent that they look like one another in terms of alignment presnap ... if all of that's true, then we already have what we want.You should take a look at the head-coaching career of one Mr. John Blake, OU HFC from 1996 through 1998. He sometimes changed offenses in mid-game.
That'll mean we've spent an entire offseason building a *structurally* different offense. It's not really possible (let alone smart) for an entire structure to be undone in the confines of a single game ... or even during the season. Harbaugh gave up the structure. It'd already be over.
You should stop thinking that Harbaugh'd even *consider* taking it back midseason. What examples are there of a coach ever doing something similar?
You should take a look at the head-coaching career of one Mr. John Blake, OU HFC from 1996 through 1998. He sometimes changed offenses in mid-game.Whoa. He switched midgame to a system(s) his players had never practiced?
He's not in Jim Harbaugh's league. Hell, he's not in Adam Sandler's league. But he was a head coach at what was even then a major college program.
Whoa. He switched midgame to a system(s) his players had never practiced?I think it was his second season (of three dreadful ones). He had decided during the off-season to go back to the wishbone. First game, they ran a series or two with it, he was not satisfied with the results, so they went back to what they had been using before. Pro-set, power-I, whatever it was.
Would like to see the doctors get that under control, if possible. UC is no joke.Ambry Thomas is now practicing. That's progress! Being back for UW feels more realistic than ever.
Ambry Thomas has shown flashes of being a special player.
Weird rumbles: it sounds like Dylan McCaffery is going to get 1-2 drives per game. Usually that's because there's an ongoing competition and a team has a so-called "QB controversy." But we are hearing that is emphatically not the case. That Shea can't be usurped. But Michigan is in the odd position of having a distinctly cemented #1 as well as a #2 who's so good that they have the luxury to win while getting him ready for next year.1 - 2 drives per game vs Middle Tenn and Army might be good. Or in Big Ten games after gaining a size-able lead
We can't know whether it will happen for ~10 days, but that sounds pretty unusual.
Ambry Thomas is now practicing. That's progress! Being back for UW feels more realistic than ever.HUGE news. They need him back healthy and up to full speed as soon as possible. He's got big time potential and if he's healthy and takes that next step, he could give Michigan the best CB tandem in the conference.
McCaffery doesn't have a monster arm, true, but (a) that doesn't mean the arm he does have is wimpsauce and (2) what else does he lack?His arm actually did look a little wimpsauce to me. I think his lack of size might've had something to do with that though. Arm strength actually can be developed a little bit. Especially in guys as rail skinny as he was/is when they work on their legs and adding weight.
Beyond his athleticism/run game, I really like his decisions and patience. He also seems to have good leadership traits and make good decisions. If it weren't for Shea, I'd still be thrilled about the starting QB ... but not the depth. Having both feels rare. If you disqualify Denard/Gardner because Borges misused Robinson and the OL ruined Devin, then you have to go all the way back to Henson/Brady to find this kind of QB two-deep.
similar to James FranklinISWYDT
Totally seperate cases,apples/oranges.Yes, and once again the NCAA decides these things- not the former school. It's very interesting to me how 3 kids transferring from Michigan to P5 schools get granted immediate eligibility, yet one kid transferring to a school that I don't even know what conference the team he transferred to plays in- gets denied. I think James Hudson's real crime was not transferring to a P5 school. Probably gets approved right away.
Zach Charbonnet is farther ahead than I (most?) expected. Also, we knew he was fast and had moves, but a few examples of textbook pass blocking were another shock to see.A speedy, powerful glider. Reminds me of A train
Josh Ross impersonating Devin Bush:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BlindCalculatingIcelandicsheepdog-mobile.mp4)
Nico Collins sits on a guy in the endzone:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FilthyArtisticAlpaca-mobile.mp4)
Ambry is fully weaponized:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LeanAlertBarnswallow-mobile.mp4)
Yea we know Harbaugh is “polarizing” as every last columnist labels Jim ad nauseum, but name anyone reasonable worth moving on to.I'd take Matt Campbell in a second
Well, sports media is at it again, waiting in the weeds to rail on Harbaugh, and last weekend’s Army game is the latest rallying point. Last year it was the season opening loss to Notre Dame that became the season-long excuse to rail on Harbaugh. Is there some sort’ve background movement rooting for Michigan to move on from Harbaugh? Perhaps the same journalists blindly linking every NFL opening to Jim Harbaugh? Yea we know Harbaugh is “polarizing” as every last columnist labels Jim ad nauseum, but name anyone reasonable worth moving on to.I didn't see this until now. Harbaugh came to Michigan as a celebrity and flew in hot. He had a thousand silly one-liners (chicken being a nervous bird) and hyper-competitive strategies (large-scale satellite camp popularization) that became daily fodder for readers. For a while the turnover on fodder may have been close to hourly. And readers lapped it up, almost unprecedentedly. Even the people who hated the "content" still clicked through and then popped onto a message board to vent their spleen, ultimately guaranteeing their involvement in the machine.
If Rodriguez or Hoke had Harbaugh's record they'd likely still be coaching in Ann Arbor. For the vast majority of Michigan fans there is no one they would rather have coach Michigan than Harbaugh. If you feel otherwise, please let me know who you'd like to see as coach. I like to laugh.Look up thread,this is JH's 5th year he has to make in roads.No excuses BTCG or bust.
if he doesn't beat Ohio State this year- he never will and he can go take a hike as far as I'm concerned.That's sensationalizing, and I don't really understand it. Especially given that it is quite plausible that Ryan Day will finish his career as less legendary than Urban Meyer, in which case it's quite plausible that 2019 will be the hardest year to beat a Ryan Day HC'd OSU team, since the Meyer culture and player development is still the highest it can be moving forward.
“Jim, I’m tired of it. I’m done. I’m signing off.”I don’t know what that guy was saying. I couldn’t get over how terrible his yard looked.
https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1175558256871260161
This is not a good look.Surely he's going to have to say that he didn't see the hashtag.
https://saturdaytradition.com/michigan-football/internal-frustration-michigan-wr-likes-tweet-with-hashtag-fireharbaugh/
I don’t know what that guy was saying. I couldn’t get over how terrible his yard looked.That whole thing was sort of weird. He had an "Alabama Baseball" t-shirt on, and the whole image was reversed as if in a mirror.
That whole thing was sort of weird. He had an "Alabama Baseball" t-shirt on, and the whole image was reversed as if in a mirror.You've never been to Michigan I take it?
I wouldn't bet my last dollar that that guy was a Michigan fan.
You've never been to Michigan I take it?No, I haven't. It's one of 7 states I haven't visited.
Also, it's a Southgate HS baseball shirt
I'd take Matt Campbell in a second
No, I haven't. It's one of 7 states I haven't visited.Finding a UM alum/UM fan within the state borders is rare
I have conflicting images of Michigan. Detroit on the one hand, Ann Arbor on the other.
You know, I read the backwards "Southgate" on the shirt, but then all I remembered was the semi-cursive "A" that looks just like Bama's.
Well he's beaten Texas and Oklahoma and it's not like Ferentz shellacked him and ISU has always been the little step brother there.He did good things at Toledo & BG.Iowa won by 1 pt last week and by 3 in OT 2 years ago.Flip the script and see how Capt Kirk does
That whole thing was sort of weird. He had an "Alabama Baseball" t-shirt on, and the whole image was reversed as if in a mirror.
I wouldn't bet my last dollar that that guy was a Michigan fan.
Finding a UM alum/UM fan within the state borders is rareEven though a lot of Michigan grads aren't from there and/or left the state after graduating, there are still many more Michigan grads in Metro Detroit than anywhere else. I couldn't find the actual numbers, but a quick LinkedIn search is proportionally representative enough, which shows that nearly 90k out of 292k alumni on LinkedIn live in Metro Detroit. Even if a lot of those are current students (Michigan's enrollment is ~46k), after excluding those, that's still a lot more than the next largest chapters (NYC has 26k, Chicago 18k, Bay Area 16k, DC 12k).
Ferentz has always struggled in CyHawk games.Domination isn't 2 games by 1 pt & 3 pt OT.Iowa is a more established program
His domination over them during the Campbell era is the exception, not the rule.
Domination isn't 2 games by 1 pt & 3 pt OT.Iowa is a more established program
Alaska was my 49th state.What did you do in SD? Go to Sturgis for the big biker festival? ;)
ND is left.
What did you do in SD? .
(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/f_auto,q_auto,w_1100/v1555173328/shape/mentalfloss/istock-92166742.jpg)Sure, there is Mt. Rushmore, but STURGIS, man! ;-)
Zero Conference Titles, .500 Bowl record, 0-4 vs rival Iowa...We'll see how Campbell does this season, but if it gets to 8+ wins this year, you're writing off some major accomplishments. He's going to be really good for some major program, not sure which yet.
Harbaugh can do that.
Harbaugh has suffered some close rivalry losses that could have gone either way as well.ARE you seriously comparing Michigan's resources or even Iowas to the Cyclones.I'd love to see Campbell at those gigs.This isn't even apples to oranges it's Grape Fruit to crab apples :017:.Come to think of it I may not want to see Campbell in AA.
I would guess the folks in AA expect to beat the Buckeyes more than a few times a decadeOhio State has won 14 of the last 16 vs Michigan. Michigan is 2-14 vs Ohio State in the last 16 games. That is pathetic.
I'm just guessing
I don't think UM will need to fire Harbaugh, my guess is he'll still have interest from the NFL and take a job there to get out and save face.they will be 8-5 or 9-4 imo.
that's right, keep those lips flappinYou mean fingers tappin',hey you don't have the shorthorns to kick around anymore.Might as well whip up the froth with the poisonous nuts for a week ta keep the blood flowin'
It all hinges on expectations. At say Iowa State, expectations are obviously lower, and 9-4 is a solid season. What should expectations be at Michigan, realistically? 10-3?Bo is revered in Ann Arbor for winning 9 games per season and losing Rose Bowl games. What kept him around and revered was his 11-9-1 record against Ohio State, as well as beating up on the Little 8.
OK then. But for any who "expect" to compete* for NCs almost every year, that won't cut it.
(By compete, I mean be in the conversation at least until the last game of the year.)
Yeah, that was my point. Now, with the extra games added, I'd say JH would be in good shape if he averaged 10 wins and beat his rival(s) at a better clip.There's a very good chance of that happening. Not only was Wisconsin very good, but Michigan was very bad this weekend. They were slow, soft and poorly coached. As much as JH was supposed to be the QB Whisperer, he has actually turned out to be the exact opposite.
There is a chance he could go O-fer this season against MSU, ND and OSU (and PSU).
Michigan needs to show up this weekend and not overlook ________ in favor of Iowa.
Different times back then they didn't hand out Bowl Games like condoms at the Free ClinicLmao
Bo is revered in Ann Arbor for winning 9 games per season and losing Rose Bowl games. What kept him around and revered was his 11-9-1 record against Ohio State, as well as beating up on the Little 8.Bo won more than 9 games per season. He won 10 or more games 12 times in his 21 years at Michigan. He had a 4 year stretch where he only lost 3 games in 4 years. He went 41-3-1 from '71-'74.
So, can this season be saved?bench Shea and get Harbaugh off his meds and get the fiery competitive ahole psycho back and maybe there's a chance.
This season is reminiscent of 2007 so far, except Michigan beat Army instead of losing to App State. 07 Oregon (before Dixon got hurt) is roughly comparable to Wisconsin this year. That 07 team got its heads of their asses and won the next 8 games with some decent wins and also had a chance at Wisconsin and vs Ohio State despite Henne being out and playing hurt in those respective games, before finally beating Florida during Tebow's Heisman year in the bowl game.this team doesn't have that leadership.
I'm not sure this team has the leadership to more or less repeat that, but I do think it's possible....
Bo won more than 9 games per season. He won 10 or more games 12 times in his 21 years at Michigan. He had a 4 year stretch where he only lost 3 games in 4 years. He went 41-3-1 from '71-'74.I just took his win total of 194, and divided by 21.
Jim is losing 3 games a season minimum right now. Harbaugh could only dream of a stretch run like that at this point. Bo was the head coach at Michigan for 21 years. He went 21 years without ever having a losing season. 6-6 in 1984 was his worst season- a .500 season. That's pretty impressive, to go 21 years and never have a losing season. Every other of Bo's 20 years- he had a minimum of 8 wins.
Yeah he lost too many Rose Bowls, but aside from that he was a great coach. He was a model of consistency, won a ton of games, and he beat Ohio State more than he lost to Ohio State.
bench Shea and get Harbaugh off his meds and get the fiery competitive ahole psycho back and maybe there's a chance.so, does Brother John in the NFL still display some fire on the sideline?
Otherwise, this team loses 3-4 more games. Possibly even more.
I just took his win total of 194, and divided by 21.It's a little unfair to use math and actual data.
9.23 wins/season.
A lot of us are good about trying not to draw too much from one data point. Maybe this was "one of those games", the likes of which we've mostly all seen from our teams at times, I know I have. A very good UGA team lost to a decent (10-4) Tennessee team 35-14 in 2007 and cost them a shot. They looked dazed and hapless in that game, it was peculiar. UGA ended up ranked 2nd and 3rd that season with an 11-2 record (the other lose to USCe).I agree with your underlying point that it is dangerous to read too much into one game but Michigan hasn't looked anywhere near like what most of us expected in any of their three games so far this season. They beat MTSU reasonably comfortably but the game was competitive until late in the third and MTSU lost to DOOK by a similar score. The Army and Wisconsin games were clearly WAY below what most of us expected from Michigan this year.
So, maybe we're seeing overly much here?
Bo ... beat Ohio State more than he lost to Ohio State.I think it is a little bit dangerous and can be misleading to rate a coach based on how he does against a rival because those rivals have their own ups-and-downs. Auburn losing to Bama lately sucks if you are an Auburn fan but you can't fire a coach for not being able to beat the machine that Saban has going in Tuscaloosa. Urban (and maybe Day) in Columbus are only a little off from that.
The last seven Ohio State teams finished:you are correct, sirNo team is going to do very well against that.
- 13-1
- 12-2
- 11-2
- 12-1
- 14-1
- 12-2
- 12-0
UW knows that there are never going to be any 5* DT's knocking on the door, and those 5* DT's run like 3-4* DE's do. So you get those 3-4* DE's, put them in the strength program, and turn them into DT's that can run. OLB is a little different, but the starters now were a QB (Baun) and a DE (IG-M) in HS. For a program like UW is, talent evaluation and development are the keys.
- UW has quietly assembled a fascinating defensive front. People are calling it a 2-4-5, and I think that's right. Superficially, it resembles a 4-3, but the inside guys like Loudermilk are SDE sized, and the outside guys are LB sized (< 240lbs). That makes their success remarkable, because they looked around the country, said "nah, you don't need that many true DL up front" and it's actually working. I wonder if that'll catch on. I'm betting it will.
you are correct, sirI get that, just pointing out that a rival is never a constant so just saying that Coach X beat the rival more than he lost to them while Coach Y lost to them more than he beat them can be highly misleading.
but if Michigan would have won 3 of the 7 the records may have looked like this:
13-1
11-3
10-3
12-1
14-1
11-3
12-0
still very impressive, but this is what M fans would like
I don't think it's necessarily one game, but this team under JH, not showing up for big games. They gave up 62 to the Buckeyes and looked hopeless in the bowl game. First opportunity to make a statement after a terrible showing against Army and they show up with no energy and quite frankly, awful play calling in key situations.
On the other hand we may want to just chill out as fans because we have this tendency to over react to games like this. When things look great there never really is good as they look for a college football team, and when things look bad they’re usually not as bad as they look.
Wisconsin is clearly fantastic, and maybe Michigan is working their way up to that slowly. Who knows?
Bo won more than 9 games per season. He won 10 or more games 12 times in his 21 years at Michigan. He had a 4 year stretch where he only lost 3 games in 4 years. He went 41-3-1 from '71-'74.Well sort of he had a winning record vs Woody but a losing one vs Earl
. He was a model of consistency, won a ton of games, and he beat Ohio State more than he lost to Ohio State.
Your example illustrates this point very well. Suppose that Michigan was 3-4 against tOSU over the last seven years. That is obviously less than .500 but 3-4 against those Ohio State teams wouldn't really be bad at all. In fact it would be VERY good. The three wins (your example) would have come against teams that finished a combined 32-9 while the four losses would have come against teams that finished a combined 51-3.regardless of your rivals strength, 51-3 or even Bama good or mid 90's Huskers dominant
Best case, realistically, I think, if UM gets it together:M has PSU in HV the Lions are the lean IMO,right now.Could be a brutal stretch - this is what JH is paid for to get things on the right path
Rutger - Win
Iowa -Win
@ Ill -Win
@ Penn State - Win
ND - Loss
@ UMd - Win
MSU - Win
@ IND - Win
OSU - Loss
9-3 obviously, disappointing, but hardly terrible, a Citrus Bowl maybe against Florida again?
2018/11/24 Alabama 52 - Auburn 21 W
2017/11/25 Alabama 14 - Auburn 26 L
2016/11/26 Alabama 30 - Auburn 12 W
2015/11/28 Alabama 29 - Auburn 13 W
2014/11/29 Alabama 55 - Auburn 44 W
2013/11/30 Alabama 28 - Auburn 34 L
2012/11/24 Alabama 49 - Auburn 0 W
2011/11/26 Alabama 42 - Auburn 14 W
2010/11/26 Alabama 27 - Auburn 28 L
2009/11/27 Alabama 26 - Auburn 21 W
2008/11/29 Alabama 36 - Auburn 0 W
2007/11/24 Alabama 10 - Auburn 17 L
2006/11/18 Alabama 15 - Auburn 22 L
2005/11/19 Alabama 18 - Auburn 28 L
2004/11/20 Alabama 13 - Auburn 21 L
2003/11/22 Alabama 23 - Auburn 28 L
2002/11/23 Alabama 7 - Auburn 17 L
Lastly, when you're paid the type of money Harbaugh is paid, Nick Saban money, being completely embarrassed by Ohio State and then Wisconsin doesn't sit well.Amen. He's paid WAY too much money for these kinds of results. I say fire him and offer Urban Meyer like $15 million a year. Call up Stephen Ross and ask for a blank check.
The salary is kind of a weird thing for the fanbase to be upset about.That's like saying a CEO's salary is a weird thing for shareholders to be upset about if the CEO is the 2nd highest paid in the country and the company is continually under-performing.
Not for some. Many fans put a lot of money toward their favorite programs. Glad to no longer be one of those.
A fan would be more comparable to a customer/consumer than a shareholder.
Brutus over on 11 Warriors
The salary is kind of a weird thing for the fanbase to be upset about.I don't understand complaining about the high salary either
If they let him go and rehired Hoke because he could produce similar results at a fraction of the cost, I don't think that would be seen as a preferable scenario by Maize and Blue nation.
I don't understand complaining about the high salary eitherYeah, I don't fault the frustration, just trying to figure out the angle here.
unless the buyout clause is too much to remove the coach such as Ferentz a few seasons ago, but that has seemed to work itself out
Got back home late last night. My thoughts:Another:
- For the first time, I found it delightful to have a wedding-football conflict
- Redzone turnovers are known to have a negative effect
- Taylor will be a NY finalist
- Especially with Dwumfour injured, Michigan is severely undersized at tackle for Don Brown's 4-3. The 2017 and 2018 classes included Hudson, Paea, and Solomon at DT. Two of those guys left and one was an OL anyway. There's your problem. I'm thinking for program health it's more crucial than ever to NOT play Mazi and Hinton this year. Going forward, their redshirts seem essential.
- UW has quietly assembled a fascinating defensive front. People are calling it a 2-4-5, and I think that's right. Superficially, it resembles a 4-3, but the inside guys like Loudermilk are SDE sized, and the outside guys are LB sized (< 240lbs). That makes their success remarkable, because they looked around the country, said "nah, you don't need that many true DL up front" and it's actually working. I wonder if that'll catch on. I'm betting it will.
- Shea Patterson has always had trouble with zone. But in this game, he struggled to read the field at all. Even when he had time. Here, Nico Collins beats his man onto the ground and gets 30-yards downfield before Shea throws it. There is no safety there. Shea still can't see him:
- https://twitter.com/JDue51/status/1175770009949356032
- eeewwwww
That was posted earlier on 11 Warriors - don't act like you don't know them
Huh?
That was posted earlier on 11 Warriors - don't act like you don't know them
It's very interesting the schadenfreude between Spartans/Wolverines - lots and lots of delicious smack hurled
I already knew about that guy from previous big Michigan losses.
Exactly, nobody at Auburn should have the torches and pitchforks out because they are 3-8 in the last 11 against Bama. Against those 11 Bama teams, 3-8 isn't bad. Sure, you want to beat your rival all the time but when your rival is going through what is probably the greatest extended run in all of college football history you can't reasonably expect to go .500 against them.2018/11/24 Alabama 52 - Auburn 21 W
2017/11/25 Alabama 14 - Auburn 26 L
2016/11/26 Alabama 30 - Auburn 12 W
2015/11/28 Alabama 29 - Auburn 13 W
2014/11/29 Alabama 55 - Auburn 44 W
2013/11/30 Alabama 28 - Auburn 34 L
2012/11/24 Alabama 49 - Auburn 0 W
2011/11/26 Alabama 42 - Auburn 14 W
2010/11/26 Alabama 27 - Auburn 28 L
2009/11/27 Alabama 26 - Auburn 21 W
2008/11/29 Alabama 36 - Auburn 0 W
If this is a somewhat comparable rivalry, Bama is 8-3 over the last 11. It changes prior to that obviously. Going 3-8 has to be marginal, but then Bama has been Bama.
Expectations and reality.That is exactly the issue and here is a chart that illustrates it:
(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fs3media.247sports.com%2FUploads%2FAssets%2F797%2F434%2F9434797.jpg%3Fwidth%3D600%26amp%3Bfit%3Dbounds&hash=18b446f93285c9db737d16c7ad51b106)I'm not seeing it here, Lloyd
:67:
when a very good team gets on a roll, they can make another very good team look bad and beat them by 20+ points
especially in this day of spread offenses and teams running up the score
also interesting that Brutus and Nubbz have the majority of posts here latelyYou're right,disgraceful and I know you've never poked your pot-stirrin' snout into the Big XII Board during Texas-Oklahoma week since UNL fled....I mean left :great:
It is interesting to ponder whether some of this is cyclical, or a long term trend (Michigan and Tennessee). It takes a while to really know obviously, and one very good coaching hire and flip the script (just as one bad one after Saban or Meyer or Sabo can do the same).Michigan has been essentially in this spot before. It is usually underappreciated even by Michigan fans just how huge the Schembechler hire was. From 1951-1968 Michigan won only one league title and no NC's. They were, IMHO, on their way to becoming another Minnesota*. Then they hired Bo and the rest, as they say, is history.
FSU and Miami have too much recruiting talent in their backyardMiami has worked very hard in the last couple of decades to increase its academic stature (it has). I don't know if this is coincidence or not. I also think moving away from Orange Bowl Stadium really hurt too. They might be best off moving to Marlins Park, if they could make the dimensions work.
losing support from the university for the football program would be the only thing to cause them to fail
and obviously, there's too much money to be gained by football
Miami and FSU are not helmet schools.but, possibly could be in another 50 years
Who knows what will happen when King Barry hangs 'em up. Fitz, Kirk, etc.One of the most remarkable things about the Wisconsin run is that it has succeeded under three coaches post Barry. Even Andersen had good teams (and left at the right time). I think (and hope) Chryst is a long-term solution, but one thing that is clear is that as long as it hold onto its core identity, Wisconsin is in good shape. More than anything else, that appears to be the Alvarez legacy.
FSU and Miami have too much recruiting talent in their backyardThis^^^^^,unless UCF becomes a power or Clemson/Bama/Gawja/FLA continually pinch the talent pool,they'll be back IMO
This^^^^^,unless UCF becomes a power or Clemson/Bama/Gawja/FLA continually pinch the talent pool,they'll be back IMOregardless what other programs do or don't, if FSU and or Miami get the right guy in charge with the proper support of the University, they will get the talent and win big
We discussed this a couple offseasons ago. I guess none of the helmets have gone through an extended period of mediocrity, but it's almost like once college football became a national sport, instead of a regional one, in the 70s and 80s, it somehow locked in the helmet schools.Not this again, LoL.
Looking at some other helmet or potential helmet teams, and their worst 15 year stretch in the past 50 years (going back to Bo's hiring). Obviously UM could still accomplish a bunch of things this seasonTennessee really stood out to me on this list. They are last or close to it on every measure that you used:
Michigan - 2005-2019 (0 Big 10 titles, 0 division titles, 2 AP Top 10 finishes, 4 major bowls, 3 losing seasons)
Alabama - 1993-2007 (1 SEC title, 3 division titles, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 2 major bowls, 3 losing seasons)
Oklahoma - 1987-2001 (2 Big 8/12 titles, 1 division title, 1 National Title, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 3 major bowls, 3 losing seasons)
Texas - 1978-1992 (2 SWC titles, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 3 major bowls, 4 losing seasons)
USC - 1987-2001 (5 Pac 10 titles, 2 AP Top 10 finishes, 5 major bowls, 2 losing seasons)
Ohio State - 1987-2001 (3 Big 10 titles, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 3 major bowls, 1 losing season)
Notre Dame - 1996-2011 (1 AP Top 10 finish, 3 major bowls, 4 losing seasons)
Nebraska - 2004-2018 (0 Big 12/10 titles, 4 division titles, 0 AP Top 10 finishes, 1 major bowl, 5 losing seasons)
Tennessee - 2004-2018 (0 SEC titles, 2 division titles, 0 AP Top 10 finishes, 1 major bowl, 8 losing seasons)
Penn State - 2000-2014 (2 Big 10 titles, 1 division title, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 2 major bowls, 4 losing seasons)
Miami has worked very hard in the last couple of decades to increase its academic stature (it has). I don't know if this is coincidence or not. I also think moving away from Orange Bowl Stadium really hurt too. They might be best off moving to Marlins Park, if they could make the dimensions work.I get the impression that part of the issue for Miami is that there is very little alumni support for the program for multiple reasons including:
Miami and FSU are not helmet schools.
Anyone have data on Minnesota after their great run? Did they slowly fade or was it more of a collapse?
Minnesota is 263-324-5 since they won their last (shared) Big Ten title in 1967. Prior to that, their record was 431-194-36, with 18 Big Ten championships and 7 MNC's.
But, if you go back to 1941, Minnesota had 16 Big Ten championships and 6 MNC's. It's record was 306-94-25.
From 1942 through 1967 the record was 125-103-11, with 2 Big Ten championships and 1 MNC.
So, which is the inflection point? 1941, or 1967?
The Gophers were pretty mediocre for much of the 50s and 60s anyway.I was going to basically say what Badge already said. I'll expand on it a little bit.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/minnesota/index.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/minnesota/index.html)
In 1960, they were voted Number 1 because the Rose Bowl loss didn't count and they were 8-2.
So, the transition probably is closer to 1941, with a few up seasons thereafter. I'm not sure we can discern much from pre1941 results relevant today.
Vis a vis Michigan, I doubt they fall as far as Tennessee has. They won't lose much luster by 10-3 seasons. They'd have to be 7-6, 8-5, 4-8, ... over 20 years to really fall out of favor I think.Yeah, I included Tennessee and Penn State for comparison purposes, but I've already said I don't think they are.
Minny and Ole Miss are not good examples I think, OM a bit better. But the Vols could be one more bad coach away from dropping from near Blue Blood to mediocre.
Aside from the 3 Florida schools, who would obviously have the best, I wonder what the BEST 15 year stretches from any school not among those 10 in the past 50 years.Probably Clemson? I just looked at the 15 years prior to this year. Really wish we had ftbobs to weigh in.
Rank | Team name | Winning Percentage | Games Won | Games Lost | Games Tied | Games Played |
1 | Boise State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Boise_State) | 0.83249 | 164 | 33 | 0 | 197 |
2 | Ohio State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Ohio_State) | 0.83243 | 154 | 31 | 0 | 185 |
3 | Alabama (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Alabama) | 0.80328 | 147 | 36 | 0 | 183 |
4 | Oklahoma (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Oklahoma) | 0.79500 | 159 | 41 | 0 | 200 |
5 | Louisiana State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Louisiana_State) | 0.76289 | 148 | 46 | 0 | 194 |
6 | Appalachian State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Appalachian_State) | 0.75000 | 48 | 16 | 0 | 64 |
7 | Wisconsin (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Wisconsin) | 0.74874 | 149 | 50 | 0 | 199 |
8 | Clemson (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Clemson) | 0.74627 | 150 | 51 | 0 | 201 |
9 | Georgia (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Georgia) | 0.73367 | 146 | 53 | 0 | 199 |
10 | Texas Christian (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas_Christian) | 0.72917 | 140 | 52 | 0 | 192 |
11 | Southern Cal (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Southern_Cal) | 0.72527 | 132 | 50 | 0 | 182 |
12 | Oregon (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Oregon) | 0.72165 | 140 | 54 | 0 | 194 |
13 | Florida (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Florida) | 0.69430 | 134 | 59 | 0 | 193 |
14 | Virginia Tech (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Virginia_Tech) | 0.69000 | 138 | 62 | 0 | 200 |
15 | Penn State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Penn_State) | 0.68586 | 131 | 60 | 0 | 191 |
16 | Texas (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas) | 0.68394 | 132 | 61 | 0 | 193 |
17 | Utah (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Utah) | 0.68229 | 131 | 61 | 0 | 192 |
18 | Auburn (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Auburn) | 0.68205 | 133 | 62 | 0 | 195 |
19 | Florida State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Florida_State) | 0.67568 | 125 | 60 | 0 | 185 |
20 | West Virginia (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=West_Virginia) | 0.67539 | 129 | 62 | 0 | 191 |
21 | Oklahoma State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Oklahoma_State) | 0.66667 | 128 | 64 | 0 | 192 |
22 | Brigham Young (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Brigham_Young) | 0.64583 | 124 | 68 | 0 | 192 |
23 | Notre Dame (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Notre_Dame) | 0.64211 | 122 | 68 | 0 | 190 |
24 | Louisville (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Louisville) | 0.63492 | 120 | 69 | 0 | 189 |
25t | Michigan (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Michigan) | 0.63158 | 120 | 70 | 0 | 190 |
25t | Cincinnati (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Cincinnati) | 0.63158 | 120 | 70 | 0 | 190 |
27 | Navy (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Navy) | 0.62887 | 122 | 72 | 0 | 194 |
28 | Stanford (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Stanford) | 0.62827 | 120 | 71 | 0 | 191 |
29t | Michigan State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Michigan_State) | 0.62694 | 121 | 72 | 0 | 193 |
29t | Houston (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Houston) | 0.62694 | 121 | 72 | 0 | 193 |
Minnesota is 263-324-5 since they won their last (shared) Big Ten title in 1967. Prior to that, their record was 431-194-36, with 18 Big Ten championships and 7 MNC's.Minnesota was not a helmet in 1967. The question is when after 1941 that status went away.
But, if you go back to 1941, Minnesota had 16 Big Ten championships and 6 MNC's. It's record was 306-94-25.
From 1942 through 1967 the record was 125-103-11, with 2 Big Ten championships and 1 MNC.
So, which is the inflection point? 1941, or 1967?
Some UM writer said that UM football right now is just a helmet a stadium and a song.
There's two kinds of Helmets. The ones that can still compete for a NC, and the ones that are essentially a museum.
Not sure which side of the divide Notre Dame is on. Mostly a museum, but they do make a run from time to time that ultimately "falls short" (to put it mildly).
Some UM writer said that UM football right now is just a helmet a stadium and a song.yup. kinda like the Cowboys in the NFL. One of the most talked about and hyped teams if not the most in the NFL because of the fan base, helmet, and past history- yet they haven't won jacksheeet since '95.
I agree, but that's what being a helmet is. You are still something, even when you aren't something.
Anything truly going on with this?Who knows, though I will say I see Michigan fans openly talking about life after Harbaugh, and who could potentially be the next coach. Right now, Matt Rhule and PJ Fleck seem like the biggest poachable coaches.
https://footballscoop.com/news/sources-jim-harbaugh-eyeing-exit-strategy/
"total crap"One UM writer speculated that what is true is that Jim's people leaked it, but what isn't true is that he is entertaining it. But they leaked it so he could specifically address that he wasn't leaving.
https://247sports.com/college/michigan/Article/Jim-Harbaugh-refutes-NFL-return-with-letter-to-recruits-137392063/?utm_source=247Sports%20Newsletter&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_campaign=191023_090335_Michigan%20Wolverines&utm_content=Link&liveconnect=AA-BF-A3-17-39-70-37-CB-33-1D-25-B2-40-8C-22-E3191023_090335MichiganWolverines (https://247sports.com/college/michigan/Article/Jim-Harbaugh-refutes-NFL-return-with-letter-to-recruits-137392063/?utm_source=247Sports)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1138249880718249984/JhKp3Pj3_normal.jpg) (https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone)
(https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone)Kyle Boone✔
@Kyle__Boone
(https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone)
Wow, the Sooner Schooner took a hard fall.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1185605509514182656/pu/img/skjx1E0z4bRodzaS?format=jpg&name=small) (https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone/status/1185605532218019842)
23K (https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=1185605532218019842) 12:16 PM - Oct 19, 2019 (https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone/status/1185605532218019842)
8,030 people are talking about this
Evans reinstated for 2020Wow, that's some big news. RS Frosh Haskins and true frosh Charbonnet are really developing as a very nice 1-2 power punch at RB right now. Both these guys look like legit RB's to me. Something Michigan has lacked for a long time. Evans coming back gives them more scheme versatility with his ability as a pass-catcher. Evans is more than capable of even lining up in the slot at WR.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/28059115/michigan-reinstate-rb-chris-evans-2020-season (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/28059115/michigan-reinstate-rb-chris-evans-2020-season)