header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: The Ukraine Topic

 (Read 75688 times)

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14324
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #420 on: March 02, 2022, 04:40:09 PM »

https://twitter.com/Forbes/status/1499128423947636739?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1499128423947636739%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.surlyhorns.com%2Fboard%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcoremodule%3Dsystemcontroller%3Dembedurl%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FForbes%2Fstatus%2F1499128423947636739
woah nellie. these guys getting squeezed might be what causes Putin to go down. i'd rather see them take the hits then regular old joes in Russia getting crushed.

not sure what the legal justification is for seizing private property however. a private citizen does not = the actions of his country. I think he'll probably be able to fight it and win. not sure what private property laws are like in germany.

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17621
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #421 on: March 02, 2022, 04:47:48 PM »
You can freeze an asset without seizing it.  I'm sure they intend to give it back.  Just about the same time Putin is dead and Russia pulls completely out of Ukraine.



MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13062
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #423 on: March 02, 2022, 04:54:00 PM »
So you're saying that a sovereign nation doesn't have a right to choose to join a military alliance, if that alliance will have them?

And Russia has the moral or legal authority to override the choice of that sovereign nation via invasion?
Does a sovereign nation have a right to develop a nuclear weapon? We have certainly been pretty interested in keeping that from happening, depending on the nation. Russia has a right to security, and a neighboring state joining an alliance with powerful armies, receiving weapons from those nations, and generally being unwilling to negotiate is not a recipe for Russia to feel secure.

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17621
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #424 on: March 02, 2022, 04:56:50 PM »
Does a sovereign nation have a right to develop a nuclear weapon? We have certainly been pretty interested in keeping that from happening, depending on the nation. Russia has a right to security, and a neighboring state joining an alliance with powerful armies, receiving weapons from those nations, and generally being unwilling to negotiate is not a recipe for Russia to feel secure.
And being invaded and murdered by Russia, is not a recipe for Ukraine to feel secure.


MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13062
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #425 on: March 02, 2022, 04:58:35 PM »
And being invaded and murdered by Russia, is not a recipe for Ukraine to feel secure.
Certainly not. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71171
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #426 on: March 02, 2022, 05:00:02 PM »
It's sort of interesting thinking about "rights of nations", I could probably write a book on that no one would read, maybe it's been done.

A sovereign nation basically has a right to do anything it wants and has the capability to do, there can be repercussions of course.  There is no global contract or list of laws governing nations, outside specific treaties.  There is the UN, yes, and they can use harsh language.

Ukraine has a right to join NATO if invited, and NATO has a right to invite, or not invite.  But this seems ancillary to me.  I'm still confused by the media reports, realizing how off they can be.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71171
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #427 on: March 02, 2022, 05:01:01 PM »
Does a sovereign nation have a right to develop a nuclear weapon? We have certainly been pretty interested in keeping that from happening, depending on the nation. Russia has a right to security, and a neighboring state joining an alliance with powerful armies, receiving weapons from those nations, and generally being unwilling to negotiate is not a recipe for Russia to feel secure.
If they have signed the NNPT, then legally, no.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71171
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #428 on: March 02, 2022, 05:02:12 PM »
In the Ludendorf Offensive of 1918, one thing that slowed the advance was German troops stopping in French towns to eat (and drink).  They didn't have nearly enough food.


rolltidefan

  • Global Moderator
  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 2219
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #429 on: March 02, 2022, 05:05:57 PM »
Does a sovereign nation have a right to develop a nuclear weapon? We have certainly been pretty interested in keeping that from happening, depending on the nation. Russia has a right to security, and a neighboring state joining an alliance with powerful armies, receiving weapons from those nations, and generally being unwilling to negotiate is not a recipe for Russia to feel secure.
within their borders, sure. it's when they extend those security concerns outside those borders that they're infringing on another nation's rights to their own security.

if they want their bordering neighbors to stop seeking other forms of security that opposes russian interest, maybe russia should stop giving them reason to seek those alternatives.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71171
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #430 on: March 02, 2022, 05:07:19 PM »


Take this with a grain, but it's probably somewhat accurate.

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12135
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #431 on: March 02, 2022, 05:07:36 PM »
within their borders, sure. it's when they extend those security concerns outside those borders that they're infringing on another nation's rights to their own security.

if they want their bordering neighbors to stop seeking other forms of security that opposes russian interest, maybe russia should stop giving them reason to seek those alternatives.
Exactly. Why do former bloc nations want NATO membership? Because they want protection from Russia.

And Putin just showed them why they need it. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71171
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #432 on: March 02, 2022, 05:19:48 PM »
Russia confirms casualties in Ukraine for the 1st time : NPR

If this photo is reasonably informative, Russia is taking a beating.


Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14324
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #433 on: March 02, 2022, 05:26:57 PM »
Joining a military alliance is a right--contingent on there actually being a willingness to admit you.

Just like freedom of speech is a right--but nobody is required to print your views.

If NATO extended an invitation, and Ukraine wanted to join, then no third party (i.e. Russia) has a right to stop them.
not seeing how that is a right. does Russia have a right to join NATO? does Cuba? No country has a right to join a military alliance. 

A right is something that cannot be taken away, nor is it given to you by anyone. NATO membership can be taken away, and it's given to countries by other NATO members (specifically the United States). It's not like freedom of speech. At all really.

Russia has legitimate security concerns and grievances- but that does not give them a right to invade another country. And I've never said as much, nor would I ever. I don't think any country has the right to invade another one. Countries have a right to defend themselves from invasion like Ukraine is doing right now, but that's about it in my view. Maybe also a right to security- but that's questionable to me as security can be open to interpretation. Russia is invading Ukraine not because they have some right to do so, they are doing so simply because they can. They are a much larger neighboring country with 100+ million more people, they have an economy almost 10x the size of Ukraine's, and they have a vastly larger and superior military. Countries don't do what they do because of any rights or morality. They do what they do because they either have the power to do something or they don't. Ukraine is not a powerful enough country to think it can incite tensions with Russia and expect no response from Russia. Unfortunately, they have to take into account the concerns of their much more powerful neighbor in order to ensure their security- that is just the reality of the situation. Things are what they are. Not what we wish them to be.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.