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Topic: The Ukraine Topic

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Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #434 on: March 02, 2022, 05:32:21 PM »
It's pretty obvious what is meant by "right to join NATO".  If NATO offers membership, a country can join it.  If not, they can't.  Simple, no?  No need to bandy minor details about terminology.

A country has a right to engage in any alliance with other countries that agree to the joining.  But in reality a country has a right to do anything it wants, or that it's leaders want.  Russia has a "right" to invade Ukraine, probably not under international law, whatever that means.

A country can do anything, but there can be repercussions.
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Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #435 on: March 02, 2022, 05:34:23 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on March 02, 2022, 05:01:01 PM
If they have signed the NNPT, then legally, no.
Even this seems questionable to me. Countries and governments come and go. How many countries that were signatories to that treaty have seen their governments overthrown and constitutions changed and entire country/political system change since signing? Probably many. Why should the new country or government be burdened by old treaties they didn't agree to? 
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Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #436 on: March 02, 2022, 05:37:05 PM »
They can if they wish leave the NNPT.  It's part of the treaty.  To the extent a treaty is a legal obligation, building a nuke as a signee would be illegal.

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Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #437 on: March 02, 2022, 05:39:33 PM »
The Javelin Missile - Tank Historia

In the warhead is a tandem charge, containing two shaped charges. Tandem warheads are devastating as the first charge eliminates any protection systems, like explosive reactive armor (ERA), paving the way for the main charge to get to work against the actual armor.
As it is not wire guided like earlier weapons and has its own on board guidance system, the Javelin can hit targets up to 2,500 meters away. This also enables the operators to relocate, take cover or even fire a second missile before impact.
The flight path of a Javelin MissileThe flight path of a Javelin missile.
Its direct-attack capabilities allow it to be used in confined spaces (where there isn’t room for the missile to climb upwards) or even against helicopters.


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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #438 on: March 02, 2022, 05:46:52 PM »
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utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #439 on: March 02, 2022, 05:48:53 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on March 02, 2022, 05:46:52 PM
See, this is what we're dealing with.

People give Russia too much respect.  They're a dude who looks like he can bench 500 lbs, but can't squat 100. 
Just because they have some nukes they won't/can't really use doesn't mean much to me. 
It's a fair point.  They're the guy that only works arms and chest, never back, and always skips leg day.
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utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #440 on: March 02, 2022, 05:49:10 PM »
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Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #441 on: March 02, 2022, 05:54:47 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on March 02, 2022, 05:46:52 PM
Just because they have some nukes they won't/can't really use doesn't mean much to me. 
They have thousands of nukes, most deliverable.  It's not a great situation if their leadership goes unstable.  
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MaximumSam

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #442 on: March 02, 2022, 05:59:42 PM »
Quote from: rolltidefan on March 02, 2022, 05:05:57 PM
within their borders, sure. it's when they extend those security concerns outside those borders that they're infringing on another nation's rights to their own security.

if they want their bordering neighbors to stop seeking other forms of security that opposes russian interest, maybe russia should stop giving them reason to seek those alternatives.
Certainly raises the key issue. We have invaded several countries to alleviate our security concerns, arguably with a lot flimsier pretexts compared to what Russia has done. You can say, hey, that's politics or irrelevant or whatever you like, but it still happened and perhaps exacerbates the situation, where Russia doesn't see any success diplomatically and therefore sees military force as the only solution. 
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utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #443 on: March 02, 2022, 06:02:07 PM »
But what about...

I'll play.  What about Ukraine?  Just sitting there getting invaded and murdered?  

You know, the reason for this thread?

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MaximumSam

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #444 on: March 02, 2022, 06:04:24 PM »
Quote from: utee94 on March 02, 2022, 06:02:07 PM
But what about...

I'll play.  What about Ukraine?  Just sitting there getting invaded and murdered? 

You know, the reason for this thread?
Yes. What about them. Do they have any motivation to stop the invasion? 
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MrNubbz

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #445 on: March 02, 2022, 06:06:47 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on March 02, 2022, 05:02:12 PM
In the Ludendorf Offensive of 1918, one thing that slowed the advance was German troops stopping in French towns to eat (and drink).  They didn't have nearly enough food.
Sherman's Army ate good on their march
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utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #446 on: March 02, 2022, 06:13:30 PM »
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utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #447 on: March 02, 2022, 06:14:25 PM »
But forget all that, it seems far more important to discuss how Ukraine was so threatening to Putin that he had to undertake slaughtering its citizens (and anyone else that happened to be in the area at the time).
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