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Topic: The Club of Helmets

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2021, 05:50:43 PM »
Of course it matters, but how much does it matter?  Half of the top programs from the first half of the last century aren't even FBS anymore. 
I get what you are saying but I think "half" is a bit of an exaggeration.  Here are the top-20 from 1900-1949:
1Notre Dame0.832213596226447
2Michigan0.779623198320422
3Army0.753903239531449
4Minnesota0.739612919523409
5Alabama0.7386431210226440
6Yale0.7218430010728435
7Southern Cal0.7169127710031408
8Dartmouth0.7101629411227433
9Texas0.7096131412222458
10Pennsylvania0.7085132812727482

11Vanderbilt0.7074030211727446
12Tennessee0.7011429211533440
13Harvard0.6983929111827436
14Ohio State0.6941928211533430
15Princeton0.6904826010831399
16California0.6881226611424404
17Pittsburgh0.6846730513424463
18Utah0.6743923610823367
19Nebraska0.6739627912827434
20Cornell0.6729027913118428
Off the top of my head, the no longer FBS are:
  • #6 Yale
  • #8 Dartmouth
  • #10 Penn
  • #13 Harvard
  • #15 Princeton
  • #20 Cornell
So that is 3 of the top-10 (30%), five of the top-15 (33%), and six of the top-20 (30%).  



Cincydawg

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2021, 05:58:28 PM »
Status was built up back in the day and is hard to get rid of.  It happens of course, some programs have fallen from grace, but it takes a while.  Half of that top ten are still Helmets, and the other half have fallen from grace, mostly because they got mediocre rather quickly after 1949 (and before).  It takes I'm guessing 20 years or more today to get kicked out.  Nebraska I think is on the verge.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2021, 06:00:47 PM »
I think the top of the 70- year list and Penn State perhaps not getting its due is that it's the only team in the top 12 that didn't play anyone else up there.
UNL-OU
UF-UGA
UF-FSU
UM-OSU
AL-AU
USC-ND
OU-UT
UGA-AU
.
Everyone else had a strong rival to parry & joust with.  Penn State..........won that "Best in the East" trophy every year.  They had to beat out.....who?  Syracuse?  Big whoop.  
.
Maybe that's why they may fall short in many people's eyes.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2021, 06:02:26 PM »

Off the top of my head, the no longer FBS are:
  • #6 Yale
  • #8 Dartmouth
  • #10 Penn
  • #13 Harvard
  • #15 Princeton
  • #20 Cornell
So that is 3 of the top-10 (30%), five of the top-15 (33%), and six of the top-20 (30%). 



Yes, I used "half" as a general term.  But I think it still stands.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2021, 07:17:18 PM »
It doesn't stand, it was just the Ivy League voluntarily demoting their athletic departments in order to devote all of their resources to academics. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2021, 07:23:28 PM »
...when they started sucking and saw that they would continue to suck.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2021, 07:46:21 PM »
They started sucking because they stopped awarding athletic scholarships. 

It's not the same situation at all as Minnesota, Nebraska and Tennessee falling off of a cliff without any kind of status demotion conference wise; teams that are still trying to be good but can't. 

Fordham might be a better example, but their success predated your specified time frame. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

Gigem

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2021, 11:12:37 PM »
My question to you is what difference does it really make?  Texas by anybody’s definition is a helmet and Clemson and Florida are not however both programs have done as much or more in the last 30 years. ND has not done much of anything since the 80’s and probably never will. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2021, 01:14:40 AM »
Because a "helmet" defined by us is a different list than one made by a 20 year old.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2021, 10:54:56 AM »
My question to you is what difference does it really make?  
The differences are, I think:

1.  Helmet teams get more attention than better teams that aren't. ($$$)
2.  They get ranked higher, especially preseason, than better teams.
3.  They get more bets, which can be important, against nonhelmets.  I think if you bet against HTs every game you might make out after the vig.
4.  Bowls would choose a HT over a NHT that was better if it was close at all.
5.  The "Committee" may also be influenced by helmetosity.  (I think they are more influenced by past ~15 years than 50).





medinabuckeye1

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2021, 10:59:56 AM »
Because a "helmet" defined by us is a different list than one made by a 20 year old.
I'll give an example.  I remember back in the late 1990's sometime I think it was Nebraska was very highly ranked and they were about to play Oklahoma.  

Oklahoma had a great run that ended with three consecutive 11-1 seasons from 1985-1987.  They lost to Miami, FL in each of those seasons (Orange Bowl in 1987, road in 1986, home in 1985 and finished ranked #1, #3 behind PSU and Miami, FL, and #3 behind Miami, FL and FSU.  Oklahoma had been consistently elite from shortly after WWII up through 1987.  From 1948-1987 they were:
  • #1 in win% by a LARGE margin over #2 PSU.  
  • #1 in AP Appearances over #2 tOSU
  • #1 in AP top-10 appearances over #2 tOSU

The point is that they were REALLY good from 1948-1987.  Then they pretty much sucked from 1988-1999.  Their best seasons in those 11 years were 9-3 campaigns in 1988, 1991, and 1993 and they were:
  • #41 in win %
  • #20 in AP Appearances
  • #18 in AP top-10's

As the Oklahoma/Nebraska game in (I think) 1997 was approaching I was desperately hoping for a Nebraska loss because the Cornhuskers were ranked ahead of Ohio State and a Nebraska loss was one of the things on my mental list of everything that needed to happen for tOSU to win the NC.  

I was talking with my dad and he said something to the effect of "Well Oklahoma is pretty good."  This statement made absolutely no sense to me.  I only had a vague recollection of the very end of Oklahoma's great run up through 1987.  Most of my CFB fandom coincided with the 1988-1997 and Oklahoma had been generally terrible.  They finished .500 in 1994 and 1995 then went 3-8 in 1996 and they were below .500 in 1997 as well.  Additionally, they hadn't beaten Nebraska since 1990 and this was when they still played every year so six consecutive losses from 1991-1996.  Worse, the recent losses hadn't even been close.  Oklahoma lost to Nebraska 37-0 in 1995 and 73-21 in 1996.  From my youthful perspective, Nebraska was a major National Power and Oklahoma was chopped liver.  My dad, being much older, remembered Oklahoma's great run.  To him, as a casual fan, Oklahoma was a major national power even though they hadn't actually been a major national power in about a decade.  

That right there is "Helmet".  

Oklahoma's greatness was great enough and long enough that casual fans like my dad still thought of them as a great team even when they weren't.  

Now consider a school like Clemson.  They've been phenomenal under Dabo Swinney.  They haven't finished with more than two losses since 2011 and they've been Alabama's main competitor in the CFP era.  They've won 2 CFPNC's and played in five CFPNCG's.  Their pinnacle is very high but their success hasn't lasted very long.  I mentioned that they haven't finished with more than two losses since 2011 but from 2001-2011 they never finished with less than four.  Their current great run is 10 years.  Oklahoma's post WWII great run was 40.  If Clemson now enters a decade like what Oklahoma had from 1988-1997 will fans in 2030 still think of them as a great team (like my dad thought of Oklahoma) or will we think of them as an "ok team that had that one great run back, when was it?"  



Cincydawg

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2021, 11:05:23 AM »
The casual fan is heavily influenced by Helmet.

The serious fan much less so, "we" realize that Texas is, for example, down right now better than many.  We're not as shocked to see Vandy beat Tenn.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2021, 12:01:52 AM »
So helmet status is fueled by casual fans' ignorance of current events?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Club of Helmets
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2021, 12:04:41 AM »
Clemson is interesting.  Basically anonymous post WWII for 30 years.  Then very strong in the 80s.  Then average-ish for 20 years.  Then great for 10.  
It would have been interesting to see how they'd have fared for that 20-year lull if FSU had never joined the ACC.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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