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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 12:53:45 PM

Title: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 12:53:45 PM
One of our favorite topics.  My list, and feel free to ..., is:

Texas  USC  Notre Dame  Bama  OSU (The)  OU  Michigan Nebraska

Just out: Penn State, and then somewhere near the club, Clemson, UGA, UF, LSU,  ....    FSU, Miami, Wisconsin, grey area

I might be forgetting somebody, like Easter Michigan.

In the Club but slipping are USC Texas Nebraska, and Michigan somewhat.  You could argue Nebbie has slipped.

Out but gaining is Clemson, UGA ....?
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 03:20:04 PM
In the past 50 years, Texas and ND aren't in the top 10 and are behind Georgia, Florida, and Clemson in win%.  
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 21, 2021, 03:44:07 PM
I don't see any reason the Penn State is not a helmet. They certainly fit the bill.

(https://i.imgur.com/sXddyLK.png)
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 04:11:22 PM
It's an opinion, but in my opinion, we have to go back more than 50 years.  A lot is perception.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 21, 2021, 04:22:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/3PA2KAz.png)
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 04:25:59 PM
I don't think the Club is determined by statistics of any sort, obviously they play a role.  It could be the teams that were often on TV back when we have one game of the week sort of thing.

I sometimes think of it as teams I'd be super excited to hear we're going to play in the future.  There are other teams I'd like to see scheduled of course, but if USC showed up on the list I would think it was pretty cool, even if they are bad.

Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 21, 2021, 04:30:03 PM
It was nice to see UW beat USC a few years back.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 04:40:19 PM
The Dawgs have Clemson, UCLA, Oregon, and Oklahoma in the next years followed by Texas and FSU, Texas and Clemson, Ohio State and Oklahoma, Clemson and Ohio State, so they are pairing up with some helmets and near helmets over the next decade.  USC would be a nice add.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 21, 2021, 05:40:25 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 04:11:22 PM
It's an opinion, but in my opinion, we have to go back more than 50 years.  A lot is perception.
Maybe, but IMHO probably not much more than 50 years and possibly not at all.  

One concept here that I consider is "living memory".  Most people don't remember a lot from before they were about 10 years old.  Sure, you'll remember things with your family and within your house and school before you were 10, but most people don't remember much about CFB games played when they were <10 or so.  

Example, Woody was hired by Ohio State in 1951 and won his first NC in 1954.  When I was a kid (80's) there were a LOT of people around Ohio who remembered both of those things.  It had only been 30-40 years prior so anyone 50 or older could remember it.  Now . . .  If you turned 10 the year Woody was hired you'll turn 80 this year.  How many people really remember Woody's hiring or remember watching games from the 1954 season when Woody won his first NC?  Precious few IMHO.  My dad did but he was born in 1940 and died earlier this year.  

Certainly anything past 70 years is outside the living memory of all but a handful of elderly fans.  Winning Percentage from 1951-2020:
1Ohio State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Ohio_State)0.7747560317015788
2Oklahoma (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Oklahoma)0.7635762719012829
3Alabama (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Alabama)0.7312859721417828
4Penn State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Penn_State)0.723805842216811
5Nebraska (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Nebraska)0.700725792458832
6Michigan (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Michigan)0.6968654823512795
7Southern Cal (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Southern_Cal)0.6960355223618806
8Texas (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas)0.6939056424610820
9Notre Dame (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Notre_Dame)0.6762552424811783
10Georgia (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Georgia)0.6729454626117824
11Florida (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Florida)0.6717454326117821
12Auburn (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Auburn)0.6703653926212813
13Florida State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Florida_State)0.6644052926317809
14Louisiana State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Louisiana_State)0.6642253426520819
15Tennessee (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Tennessee)0.6553052827320821
16Clemson (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Clemson)0.6503152327814815
17Miami-Florida (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Miami-Florida)0.643665152845804
18Arizona State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Arizona_State)0.640965032808791
19Virginia Tech (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Virginia_Tech)0.6122848830711806
20Brigham Young (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Brigham_Young)0.609305003199828
21West Virginia (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=West_Virginia)0.6058947830911798
22UCLA (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=UCLA)0.6013946830719794
23Arkansas (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Arkansas)0.6013648131711809
24Fresno State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Fresno_State)0.591304733266805
25Washington (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Washington)0.5902346532112798
26Southern Miss (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Southern_Miss)0.589764633217791
27Louisiana Tech (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Louisiana_Tech)0.585283972809686
28Miami-Ohio (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Miami-Ohio)0.5820243531017762
29Mississippi (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Mississippi)0.5803045532715797
30Texas A&M (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas_A+M)0.5798346133215808

Then I think you need a hard-to-define, "some but not too much" recency bias so here is the same list for the last 35 years:
1Ohio State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Ohio_State)0.78388333905428
2Florida State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Florida_State)0.746513201082430
3Oklahoma (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Oklahoma)0.744903271113441
4Alabama (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Alabama)0.730233141160430
5Miami-Florida (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Miami-Florida)0.723903121190431
6Florida (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Florida)0.719953171231441
7Clemson (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Clemson)0.709933131273443
8Nebraska (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Nebraska)0.709573111271439
9Georgia (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Georgia)0.707293101281439
10Michigan (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Michigan)0.700002991274430
11Penn State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Penn_State)0.692582981321431
12Auburn (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Auburn)0.680142921365433
13Louisiana State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Louisiana_State)0.679812921372431
14Southern Cal (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Southern_Cal)0.675002811345420
15Oregon (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Oregon)0.669002871420429
16Notre Dame (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Notre_Dame)0.664232721372411
17Virginia Tech (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Virginia_Tech)0.657892861483437
18Texas (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas)0.657412831472432
19Texas A&M (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas_A+M)0.656682841482434
20Brigham Young (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Brigham_Young)0.654712911532446
21Tennessee (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Tennessee)0.652422811493433
22Wisconsin (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Wisconsin)0.627592711604435
23Toledo (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Toledo)0.624702561534413
24Utah (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Utah)0.619052601600420
25West Virginia (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=West_Virginia)0.617652611613425
26Texas Christian (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas_Christian)0.609792551631419
27Iowa (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Iowa)0.609562591655429
28Fresno State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Fresno_State)0.594912561742432
29Washington (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Washington)0.591232481713422
30Louisville (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Louisville)0.587682471732422

In my view, if you aren't on both lists, you aren't in the discussion.  If you are, we can talk.  So here are the teams on both lists:
Thus, my "helmets" are:
Of those 13, Nebraska and Michigan are on the shakiest ground at this point IMHO.  

Then you have a list of near-helmets that are close and threatening to become helmets:


Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 05:43:51 PM
My listing is subjective, by definition, as I think about it.  It's in large part which programs are known to casual fans as being good, even if they aren't, and they will think when say Michigan plays say Clemson, Michigan should win.  I think it also impacts the polls.

Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 05:44:54 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 04:11:22 PM
It's an opinion, but in my opinion, we have to go back more than 50 years.  A lot is perception.
Of course it matters, but how much does it matter?  Half of the top programs from the first half of the last century aren't even FBS anymore.  
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 05:46:03 PM
Quote from: 847badgerfan on July 21, 2021, 04:22:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/3PA2KAz.png)
Any list with Tennessee in the top 10 isn't much of a list. I think even Vols fans would acknowledge that.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 05:47:52 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 05:43:51 PM
My listing is subjective, by definition, as I think about it.  It's in large part which programs are known to casual fans as being good, even if they aren't, and they will think when say Michigan plays say Clemson, Michigan should win.  I think it also impacts the polls.


You're describing 70 year old women.  No one directly involved with the game is like this.  The players aren't, the coaches aren't, and the fans aren't.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 05:50:21 PM
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 05:47:52 PM
You're describing 70 year old women.  No one directly involved with the game is like this.  The players aren't, the coaches aren't, and the fans aren't.
Maybe I need to define what I mean by "casual fans".  Few 70 year old women are that.  And certainly players and coaches aren't,  but MANY fans are.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 21, 2021, 05:50:43 PM
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 05:44:54 PM
Of course it matters, but how much does it matter?  Half of the top programs from the first half of the last century aren't even FBS anymore. 
I get what you are saying but I think "half" is a bit of an exaggeration.  Here are the top-20 from 1900-1949:
1Notre Dame (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Notre_Dame)0.832213596226447
2Michigan (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Michigan)0.779623198320422
3Army (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Army)0.753903239531449
4Minnesota (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Minnesota)0.739612919523409
5Alabama (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Alabama)0.7386431210226440
6Yale (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Yale)0.7218430010728435
7Southern Cal (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Southern_Cal)0.7169127710031408
8Dartmouth (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Dartmouth)0.7101629411227433
9Texas (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas)0.7096131412222458
10Pennsylvania (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Pennsylvania)0.7085132812727482
11Vanderbilt (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Vanderbilt)0.7074030211727446
12Tennessee (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Tennessee)0.7011429211533440
13Harvard (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Harvard)0.6983929111827436
14Ohio State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Ohio_State)0.6941928211533430
15Princeton (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Princeton)0.6904826010831399
16California (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=California)0.6881226611424404
17Pittsburgh (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Pittsburgh)0.6846730513424463
18Utah (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Utah)0.6743923610823367
19Nebraska (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Nebraska)0.6739627912827434
20Cornell (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Cornell)0.6729027913118428
Off the top of my head, the no longer FBS are:
So that is 3 of the top-10 (30%), five of the top-15 (33%), and six of the top-20 (30%).  


Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 05:58:28 PM
Status was built up back in the day and is hard to get rid of.  It happens of course, some programs have fallen from grace, but it takes a while.  Half of that top ten are still Helmets, and the other half have fallen from grace, mostly because they got mediocre rather quickly after 1949 (and before).  It takes I'm guessing 20 years or more today to get kicked out.  Nebraska I think is on the verge.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 06:00:47 PM
I think the top of the 70- year list and Penn State perhaps not getting its due is that it's the only team in the top 12 that didn't play anyone else up there.
UNL-OU
UF-UGA
UF-FSU
UM-OSU
AL-AU
USC-ND
OU-UT
UGA-AU
.
Everyone else had a strong rival to parry & joust with.  Penn State..........won that "Best in the East" trophy every year.  They had to beat out.....who?  Syracuse?  Big whoop.  
.
Maybe that's why they may fall short in many people's eyes.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 06:02:26 PM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on July 21, 2021, 05:50:43 PM

Off the top of my head, the no longer FBS are:
  • #6 Yale
  • #8 Dartmouth
  • #10 Penn
  • #13 Harvard
  • #15 Princeton
  • #20 Cornell
So that is 3 of the top-10 (30%), five of the top-15 (33%), and six of the top-20 (30%). 



Yes, I used "half" as a general term.  But I think it still stands.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on July 21, 2021, 07:17:18 PM
It doesn't stand, it was just the Ivy League voluntarily demoting their athletic departments in order to devote all of their resources to academics. 
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 07:23:28 PM
...when they started sucking and saw that they would continue to suck.  
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on July 21, 2021, 07:46:21 PM
They started sucking because they stopped awarding athletic scholarships. 

It's not the same situation at all as Minnesota, Nebraska and Tennessee falling off of a cliff without any kind of status demotion conference wise; teams that are still trying to be good but can't. 

Fordham might be a better example, but their success predated your specified time frame. 
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Gigem on July 21, 2021, 11:12:37 PM
My question to you is what difference does it really make?  Texas by anybody’s definition is a helmet and Clemson and Florida are not however both programs have done as much or more in the last 30 years. ND has not done much of anything since the 80’s and probably never will. 
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 22, 2021, 01:14:40 AM
Because a "helmet" defined by us is a different list than one made by a 20 year old.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 22, 2021, 10:54:56 AM
Quote from: Gigem on July 21, 2021, 11:12:37 PM
My question to you is what difference does it really make?  
The differences are, I think:

1.  Helmet teams get more attention than better teams that aren't. ($$$)
2.  They get ranked higher, especially preseason, than better teams.
3.  They get more bets, which can be important, against nonhelmets.  I think if you bet against HTs every game you might make out after the vig.
4.  Bowls would choose a HT over a NHT that was better if it was close at all.
5.  The "Committee" may also be influenced by helmetosity.  (I think they are more influenced by past ~15 years than 50).




Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 22, 2021, 10:59:56 AM
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 22, 2021, 01:14:40 AM
Because a "helmet" defined by us is a different list than one made by a 20 year old.
I'll give an example.  I remember back in the late 1990's sometime I think it was Nebraska was very highly ranked and they were about to play Oklahoma.  

Oklahoma had a great run that ended with three consecutive 11-1 seasons from 1985-1987.  They lost to Miami, FL in each of those seasons (Orange Bowl in 1987, road in 1986, home in 1985 and finished ranked #1, #3 behind PSU and Miami, FL, and #3 behind Miami, FL and FSU.  Oklahoma had been consistently elite from shortly after WWII up through 1987.  From 1948-1987 they were:

The point is that they were REALLY good from 1948-1987.  Then they pretty much sucked from 1988-1999.  Their best seasons in those 11 years were 9-3 campaigns in 1988, 1991, and 1993 and they were:

As the Oklahoma/Nebraska game in (I think) 1997 was approaching I was desperately hoping for a Nebraska loss because the Cornhuskers were ranked ahead of Ohio State and a Nebraska loss was one of the things on my mental list of everything that needed to happen for tOSU to win the NC.  

I was talking with my dad and he said something to the effect of "Well Oklahoma is pretty good."  This statement made absolutely no sense to me.  I only had a vague recollection of the very end of Oklahoma's great run up through 1987.  Most of my CFB fandom coincided with the 1988-1997 and Oklahoma had been generally terrible.  They finished .500 in 1994 and 1995 then went 3-8 in 1996 and they were below .500 in 1997 as well.  Additionally, they hadn't beaten Nebraska since 1990 and this was when they still played every year so six consecutive losses from 1991-1996.  Worse, the recent losses hadn't even been close.  Oklahoma lost to Nebraska 37-0 in 1995 and 73-21 in 1996.  From my youthful perspective, Nebraska was a major National Power and Oklahoma was chopped liver.  My dad, being much older, remembered Oklahoma's great run.  To him, as a casual fan, Oklahoma was a major national power even though they hadn't actually been a major national power in about a decade.  

That right there is "Helmet".  

Oklahoma's greatness was great enough and long enough that casual fans like my dad still thought of them as a great team even when they weren't.  

Now consider a school like Clemson.  They've been phenomenal under Dabo Swinney.  They haven't finished with more than two losses since 2011 and they've been Alabama's main competitor in the CFP era.  They've won 2 CFPNC's and played in five CFPNCG's.  Their pinnacle is very high but their success hasn't lasted very long.  I mentioned that they haven't finished with more than two losses since 2011 but from 2001-2011 they never finished with less than four.  Their current great run is 10 years.  Oklahoma's post WWII great run was 40.  If Clemson now enters a decade like what Oklahoma had from 1988-1997 will fans in 2030 still think of them as a great team (like my dad thought of Oklahoma) or will we think of them as an "ok team that had that one great run back, when was it?"  


Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 22, 2021, 11:05:23 AM
The casual fan is heavily influenced by Helmet.

The serious fan much less so, "we" realize that Texas is, for example, down right now better than many.  We're not as shocked to see Vandy beat Tenn.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 23, 2021, 12:01:52 AM
So helmet status is fueled by casual fans' ignorance of current events?
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 23, 2021, 12:04:41 AM
Clemson is interesting.  Basically anonymous post WWII for 30 years.  Then very strong in the 80s.  Then average-ish for 20 years.  Then great for 10.  
It would have been interesting to see how they'd have fared for that 20-year lull if FSU had never joined the ACC.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Gigem on July 23, 2021, 08:51:27 AM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on July 22, 2021, 10:59:56 AM
I'll give an example.  I remember back in the late 1990's sometime I think it was Nebraska was very highly ranked and they were about to play Oklahoma. 

Oklahoma had a great run that ended with three consecutive 11-1 seasons from 1985-1987.  They lost to Miami, FL in each of those seasons (Orange Bowl in 1987, road in 1986, home in 1985 and finished ranked #1, #3 behind PSU and Miami, FL, and #3 behind Miami, FL and FSU.  Oklahoma had been consistently elite from shortly after WWII up through 1987.  From 1948-1987 they were:
  • #1 in win% by a LARGE margin over #2 PSU. 
  • #1 in AP Appearances over #2 tOSU
  • #1 in AP top-10 appearances over #2 tOSU

The point is that they were REALLY good from 1948-1987.  Then they pretty much sucked from 1988-1999.  Their best seasons in those 11 years were 9-3 campaigns in 1988, 1991, and 1993 and they were:
  • #41 in win %
  • #20 in AP Appearances
  • #18 in AP top-10's

As the Oklahoma/Nebraska game in (I think) 1997 was approaching I was desperately hoping for a Nebraska loss because the Cornhuskers were ranked ahead of Ohio State and a Nebraska loss was one of the things on my mental list of everything that needed to happen for tOSU to win the NC. 

I was talking with my dad and he said something to the effect of "Well Oklahoma is pretty good."  This statement made absolutely no sense to me.  I only had a vague recollection of the very end of Oklahoma's great run up through 1987.  Most of my CFB fandom coincided with the 1988-1997 and Oklahoma had been generally terrible.  They finished .500 in 1994 and 1995 then went 3-8 in 1996 and they were below .500 in 1997 as well.  Additionally, they hadn't beaten Nebraska since 1990 and this was when they still played every year so six consecutive losses from 1991-1996.  Worse, the recent losses hadn't even been close.  Oklahoma lost to Nebraska 37-0 in 1995 and 73-21 in 1996.  From my youthful perspective, Nebraska was a major National Power and Oklahoma was chopped liver.  My dad, being much older, remembered Oklahoma's great run.  To him, as a casual fan, Oklahoma was a major national power even though they hadn't actually been a major national power in about a decade. 

That right there is "Helmet". 

Oklahoma's greatness was great enough and long enough that casual fans like my dad still thought of them as a great team even when they weren't. 

Now consider a school like Clemson.  They've been phenomenal under Dabo Swinney.  They haven't finished with more than two losses since 2011 and they've been Alabama's main competitor in the CFP era.  They've won 2 CFPNC's and played in five CFPNCG's.  Their pinnacle is very high but their success hasn't lasted very long.  I mentioned that they haven't finished with more than two losses since 2011 but from 2001-2011 they never finished with less than four.  Their current great run is 10 years.  Oklahoma's post WWII great run was 40.  If Clemson now enters a decade like what Oklahoma had from 1988-1997 will fans in 2030 still think of them as a great team (like my dad thought of Oklahoma) or will we think of them as an "ok team that had that one great run back, when was it?" 
Yes, and if you asked my wife about the Dallas Cowboys she'd say "They're pretty good".  So if helmet status means that you live on your past accomplishments then so be it.  It doesn't automatically make you a contender.  
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Geolion91 on July 23, 2021, 10:36:05 AM
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 21, 2021, 06:00:47 PM
I think the top of the 70- year list and Penn State perhaps not getting its due is that it's the only team in the top 12 that didn't play anyone else up there.
UNL-OU
UF-UGA
UF-FSU
UM-OSU
AL-AU
USC-ND
OU-UT
UGA-AU
.
Everyone else had a strong rival to parry & joust with.  Penn State..........won that "Best in the East" trophy every year.  They had to beat out.....who?  Syracuse?  Big whoop. 
.
Maybe that's why they may fall short in many people's eyes.
Uh, in the 70's and 80's Penn State regularly played Pitt, which was a powerhouse at the time, and Notre Dame.

In the 90's, Penn State started playing Ohio State and Michigan annually, once they joined the Big Ten.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 23, 2021, 11:20:13 AM
Quote from: Geolion91 on July 23, 2021, 10:36:05 AM
Uh, in the 70's and 80's Penn State regularly played Pitt, which was a powerhouse at the time, and Notre Dame.

In the 90's, Penn State started playing Ohio State and Michigan annually, once they joined the Big Ten.
Also played a lot of games against Bama and Miami. Some with Nebraska, and tUSC.

PSU has also played UW 19 times, and holds a 10-9 advantage in the series.

PSU has nothing to be ashamed of here.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: MarqHusker on July 23, 2021, 11:24:49 AM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on July 22, 2021, 10:59:56 AM
I'll give an example.  I remember back in the late 1990's sometime I think it was Nebraska was very highly ranked and they were about to play Oklahoma. 

Oklahoma had a great run that ended with three consecutive 11-1 seasons from 1985-1987.  They lost to Miami, FL in each of those seasons (Orange Bowl in 1987, road in 1986, home in 1985 and finished ranked #1, #3 behind PSU and Miami, FL, and #3 behind Miami, FL and FSU.  Oklahoma had been consistently elite from shortly after WWII up through 1987.  From 1948-1987 they were:
  • #1 in win% by a LARGE margin over #2 PSU. 
  • #1 in AP Appearances over #2 tOSU
  • #1 in AP top-10 appearances over #2 tOSU

The point is that they were REALLY good from 1948-1987.  Then they pretty much sucked from 1988-1999.  Their best seasons in those 11 years were 9-3 campaigns in 1988, 1991, and 1993 and they were:
  • #41 in win %
  • #20 in AP Appearances
  • #18 in AP top-10's

As the Oklahoma/Nebraska game in (I think) 1997 was approaching I was desperately hoping for a Nebraska loss because the Cornhuskers were ranked ahead of Ohio State and a Nebraska loss was one of the things on my mental list of everything that needed to happen for tOSU to win the NC. 

I was talking with my dad and he said something to the effect of "Well Oklahoma is pretty good."  This statement made absolutely no sense to me.  I only had a vague recollection of the very end of Oklahoma's great run up through 1987.  Most of my CFB fandom coincided with the 1988-1997 and Oklahoma had been generally terrible.  They finished .500 in 1994 and 1995 then went 3-8 in 1996 and they were below .500 in 1997 as well.  Additionally, they hadn't beaten Nebraska since 1990 and this was when they still played every year so six consecutive losses from 1991-1996.  Worse, the recent losses hadn't even been close.  Oklahoma lost to Nebraska 37-0 in 1995 and 73-21 in 1996.  From my youthful perspective, Nebraska was a major National Power and Oklahoma was chopped liver.  My dad, being much older, remembered Oklahoma's great run.  To him, as a casual fan, Oklahoma was a major national power even though they hadn't actually been a major national power in about a decade. 

That right there is "Helmet". 

Oklahoma's greatness was great enough and long enough that casual fans like my dad still thought of them as a great team even when they weren't. 

Now consider a school like Clemson.  They've been phenomenal under Dabo Swinney.  They haven't finished with more than two losses since 2011 and they've been Alabama's main competitor in the CFP era.  They've won 2 CFPNC's and played in five CFPNCG's.  Their pinnacle is very high but their success hasn't lasted very long.  I mentioned that they haven't finished with more than two losses since 2011 but from 2001-2011 they never finished with less than four.  Their current great run is 10 years.  Oklahoma's post WWII great run was 40.  If Clemson now enters a decade like what Oklahoma had from 1988-1997 will fans in 2030 still think of them as a great team (like my dad thought of Oklahoma) or will we think of them as an "ok team that had that one great run back, when was it?" 



This is a good anecdote. 
Of course the final score of that 97 OU at N game was 69-7. Osborne's 250th win.    Not the OU I remembered either, still a helmet.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 23, 2021, 11:48:07 AM
Quote from: Geolion91 on July 23, 2021, 10:36:05 AM
Uh, in the 70's and 80's Penn State regularly played Pitt, which was a powerhouse at the time, and Notre Dame.

In the 90's, Penn State started playing Ohio State and Michigan annually, once they joined the Big Ten.
Per Stassen, Penn State's all time record against Pitt is 52-43-4 or .545 (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/opp-opp.pl?start=1869&end=2020&team1=PennState&team2=Pittsburgh) so that sounds like a reasonably even series.  For comparison, Michigan is 58-52-6 or .526 against Ohio State.  

The thing is that Pitt's wins in the series seem to have come in bunches.  From 1913-1938 Pitt just dominated the series, going 20-1-2 and up through about 1965 Pitt was still around 50/50 so in total Pitt went 32-15-3 from 1913-1965.  

Medina's breakdown of the PSU/Pitt series:

While the series is fairly even overall that is only because Pitt absolutely dominated 80+ years ago.  Within the living memory of basically anyone, the only time that PSU wasn't just flat dominating this series was a brief competitive interlude from 1979-1988.  

The bottom line is that Pitt is simply NOT a helmet.  In @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) 's comparison above all of those helmets have been playing another helmet (or near helmet, nearer than Pitt) every year for decades and were doing so long before PSU joined the Big11Ten.  Pitt simply doesn't fit that description.  Here are all of the "Helmets" and "near-helmets" that PSU has played at least 10 times:




Quote from: 847badgerfan on July 23, 2021, 11:20:13 AM
Also played a lot of games against Bama and Miami. Some with Nebraska, and tUSC.

PSU has also played UW 19 times, and holds a 10-9 advantage in the series.

PSU has nothing to be ashamed of here.
I'm not, and I don't think that OAM was arguing that PSU had something to be ashamed of.  His point (I think) and mine (I know) is that those rivalry series between helmets like OU/UNL, ND/USC, tOSU/M, etc kept both teams "in the news" even when they weren't all that great.  PSU really didn't have a similar thing until they started playing tOSU every year (and Michigan most years) starting in 1993.  
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 23, 2021, 08:57:03 PM
Yeah, Pitt was good for a few years, but not a top-12, multi-decade program.  
I just observed that every Tom Sawyer had a Huck Finn, 'cept the Lions.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 24, 2021, 07:32:30 AM
I really think Helmetosity is basically perception, and all the data is not necessarily relevant to the discussion.  A program that had great success over years 50 years back but slipped into mediocrity over the past 20 likely is still perceived as a Helmet team by many, much as the Dallas Cowboys are a helmet team.

The dedicated fan knows Nebraska is not currently very good, but the casual fan sees that helmet and figures they probably are tough, even if they know they have slipped a bit in recent years.  It takes a while for that patina to wear off.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 24, 2021, 09:35:03 AM
Quote from: Cincydawg on July 24, 2021, 07:32:30 AM
I really think Helmetosity is basically perception, and all the data is not necessarily relevant to the discussion.  A program that had great success over years 50 years back but slipped into mediocrity over the past 20 likely is still perceived as a Helmet team by many, 
Okay, but who gives a shit about these people's ignorant opinions?  The status of a program (or anything, really) should not be reliant on the opinions of the ill-informed.  
Those are the opinions that are to be disregarded.  They don't count in this.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: FearlessF on July 24, 2021, 09:55:54 AM
ok, you're in charge of telling the rest of the nation that those opinions are not valid

as you know, the nation as a whole, college football fans of simply the unwashed masses are largely ill-informed
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 24, 2021, 09:59:18 AM
The reason these opinions can matter, as I noted before, is on betting lines, if someone wagers.  And it relates to how rankings are contrived, at least AP rankings, where some "helmet teams" get noticed above the others.  And it can impact those who follow the game closely as well, I think, at times.

If I were to bet, the two rules I would follow are:

1.  Never bet on a helmet team to cover.
2.  Awlays bet the dog in a bowl game.

It would be interesting to see how well this works, my GUESS is it works better than 50-50 but not enough to cover the vig.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: MrNubbz on July 24, 2021, 01:08:13 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on July 21, 2021, 12:53:45 PM

I might be forgetting somebody, like Easter Michigan.

WOFFORD COLLEGE
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: MrNubbz on July 24, 2021, 01:14:18 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on July 24, 2021, 09:59:18 AM
If I were to bet, the two rules I would follow are:

1.  Never bet on a helmet team to cover.
2.  Awlays bet the dog in a bowl game.

It would be interesting to see how well this works, my GUESS is it works better than 50-50 but not enough to cover the vig.
You'd still break even and pay the VIG,believe me we went quite in depth in the wagering wars.Tried sticking to the contrarian plays for a season.Final results, Same-Same, Lost Wages knows how to middle...and meddle
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 24, 2021, 10:31:31 PM
Quote from: FearlessF on July 24, 2021, 09:55:54 AM
ok, you're in charge of telling the rest of the nation that those opinions are not valid

as you know, the nation as a whole, college football fans of simply the unwashed masses are largely ill-informed
Correct, when their opinions are demonstrably false, they don't count as much.  It's not complicated.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 25, 2021, 08:26:59 AM
Perception often trumps reality, at least for a time.  If Joe Fan sees "Nebraska" playing say Indiana, he's likely to assume Nebbie is going to win.  And he may bet that way, though I'd guess folks who bet much pay more attention.

The lines aren't that far off in general.

The teams most often over ranked are generally Helmet Teams (Notre Dame).
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 25, 2021, 10:02:33 AM
Quote from: Cincydawg on July 25, 2021, 08:26:59 AM
Perception often trumps reality, at least for a time.  
Literally my least-favorite saying of all-time.  
"Perception is reality" placates the ignorance of the many.  Screw that.  The majority can be wrong and often is. 
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 25, 2021, 10:53:55 AM
It's not some saying, it's reality, in many fields.

Reality could be you are the best employee in your group, but perception by the manager is that Joe is the best, and he gets the promotion.

Welcome to the real world, one of perception, flawed, human perception.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 25, 2021, 11:32:02 PM
That place of business isn't going to stay in business, then.  
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 26, 2021, 09:19:06 AM
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on July 25, 2021, 11:32:02 PM
That place of business isn't going to stay in business, then. 
Yes, they will, for decades and decades.  I speak from very personal experience.

The Real World is built of perception, not Reality.  The stock market can be another example of that.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: FearlessF on July 26, 2021, 10:17:31 AM
everyone's perception is a bit different
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 26, 2021, 01:39:54 PM
Folks think of large companies as some highly efficient cut throat operation where everyone works hard and it's all efficient.

Ha.

They made a movie that is far far more realistic.

(https://i.imgur.com/3llMSd8.jpg)
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Thumper on July 27, 2021, 07:00:33 PM
FtBobs (remember him?) used to say he collected "eras".  He always insisted the only metric was total number of wins.  I once did a bunch of research and realized what we call "college football" wasn't anything like much of the early days.  
The rules were radically different and varied from game to game.  Michigan got a lot of wins while the Indian wars were still being fought.  Since there weren't many universities with football teams, a lot of their wins were over high school teams or independent "club teams".  OU and Texas started playing before Oklahoma statehood when OU was just a territorial college in Indian Territory.  OU lost a lot of those.  Most years there weren't enough players to make a team so they got local guys who didn't attend the university.  In fact, it wasn't until in the 1930's that OU required football players to be students and Texas followed a few years after.  I imagine it was similar elsewhere.
It was also in the 1930's football went from a regional to a national sport with more consistent rules.  
The next big era was after WWII when the soldiers came home and the GI Bill allowed many of them to attend college.  Proximity was not as big an issue so players weren't limited to the local university.  Personally, this is where I start taking things seriously.  I was born in 1951 so its also a lifetime thing I guess.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: CWSooner on July 27, 2021, 08:03:03 PM
Quote from: Thumper on July 27, 2021, 07:00:33 PM
FtBobs (remember him?) used to say he collected "eras".  He always insisted the only metric was total number of wins.  I once did a bunch of research and realized what we call "college football" wasn't anything like much of the early days. 
The rules were radically different and varied from game to game.  Michigan got a lot of wins while the Indian wars were still being fought.  Since there weren't many universities with football teams, a lot of their wins were over high school teams or independent "club teams".  OU and Texas started playing before Oklahoma statehood when OU was just a territorial college in Indian Territory.  OU lost a lot of those.  Most years there weren't enough players to make a team so they got local guys who didn't attend the university.  In fact, it wasn't until in the 1930's that OU required football players to be students and Texas followed a few years after.  I imagine it was similar elsewhere.
It was also in the 1930's football went from a regional to a national sport with more consistent rules. 
The next big era was after WWII when the soldiers came home and the GI Bill allowed many of them to attend college.  Proximity was not as big an issue so players weren't limited to the local university.  Personally, this is where I start taking things seriously.  I was born in 1951 so its also a lifetime thing I guess.
I was born in 1954, and I support your analysis.
The bobs was something else!  One could never out-argue him, and I speak from much personal experience!  :)
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2021, 07:48:53 AM
We dinner at Bones last night, which was pretty good (and very expensive), and this was on the wall next to us:

(https://i.imgur.com/v70ckP0.png)

That guy probably weighs 190 or so?  They had neat photos like this on their walls, but the place was slammed with other folks wanting to spend a lot of money on a steak.

$323 for two of us after tip.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: FearlessF on July 28, 2021, 08:01:23 AM
too rich for me

I'd need a buyer
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2021, 08:12:12 AM
We went more for the experience than the food, I think, probably won't be back.  It's the highly "known" place for steaks around here, seemed like we should try it.

The bottle of wine was $85, a Pomerol, it was excellent anyway.  Like most pricey places, the individual items looked reasonably priced but everything is a la carte.

It's a movers and shakers place I think, packed on a Tuesday night.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2021, 08:12:31 AM
Quote from: Thumper on July 27, 2021, 07:00:33 PM
FtBobs (remember him?) used to say he collected "eras".  He always insisted the only metric was total number of wins.  I once did a bunch of research and realized what we call "college football" wasn't anything like much of the early days. 
The rules were radically different and varied from game to game.  Michigan got a lot of wins while the Indian wars were still being fought.  Since there weren't many universities with football teams, a lot of their wins were over high school teams or independent "club teams".  OU and Texas started playing before Oklahoma statehood when OU was just a territorial college in Indian Territory.  OU lost a lot of those.  Most years there weren't enough players to make a team so they got local guys who didn't attend the university.  In fact, it wasn't until in the 1930's that OU required football players to be students and Texas followed a few years after.  I imagine it was similar elsewhere.
It was also in the 1930's football went from a regional to a national sport with more consistent rules. 
The next big era was after WWII when the soldiers came home and the GI Bill allowed many of them to attend college.  Proximity was not as big an issue so players weren't limited to the local university.  Personally, this is where I start taking things seriously.  I was born in 1951 so its also a lifetime thing I guess.
The Western Conference started in 1895 and one of the rules it made in 1905 was that you had to be a student to play football, and that you would need to have one year of residence at the school to do so (automatic redshirt*).

This was one of the reasons Michigan left the conference for a decade. Some say Michigan withdrew, while others say the conference booted them.

* The B1G almost brought this back in 2015, but ultimately decided not to.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Thumper on July 28, 2021, 08:59:18 AM
1905 brought a lot of changes.  There were 19 deaths that year and Theodore Roosevelt threatened to ban the game if it weren't made safer.  62 schools met and decided to form an external governing body to make the rules.  So the IAAUS was formed in 1906 and renamed the NCAA in 1910.  Here we are a century later and the NCAA may be near it's end at least as far as football goes.

The NCAA rules didn't seem to make it out to the plains for awhile.  I remember reading about OU winning a game where the ball went into a creek and a player swam it past the goal line.  Now that could have made for some interesting rules.  "Team A has won the coin toss.  Do you want downstream or upstream?"  Shoulder pads would include personal flotation devices.

I do wish the sportsmanship of some of the early days carried on.  There was a period in the OU-Texas rivalry where members of the losing team would carry members of the winning team on their shoulders for a victory lap of the field.

All of this is to say all those early years of football wouldn't be recognizable to us today and wouldn't be comparing apples to apples. 
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2021, 09:06:28 AM
When I was in school, freshmen played on the freshman team.  They had to wait a year to play Varsity.  And it was unusual for a soph to start.  If a junior started he was a near great player relatively.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2021, 09:11:45 AM
Quote from: Cincydawg on July 28, 2021, 09:06:28 AM
When I was in school, freshmen played on the freshman team.  They had to wait a year to play Varsity.  And it was unusual for a soph to start.  If a junior started he was a near great player relatively.
1972 changed everything for freshmen. Some school held onto it, most most did not.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 28, 2021, 09:16:13 AM
Not many freshmen started back then, even into the 80s I think.  Some did with considerably impact of course.  QBs today come in far better prepared than in 1980.

Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: FearlessF on July 30, 2021, 12:46:41 PM
Records for Nebraska’s freshman-junior varsity team were first kept in 1956, and through its final regularly scheduled season in 1990 the combined record was 120-17-1.

The Husker freshman-jayvees endured just one losing season, dropping their final three games to Air Force, Coffeyville (Kan.) Junior College and Waldorf (Iowa) Junior College in 1987 to finish 2-3.

One Last Time

In February of 1991, Nebraska announced it would discontinue its freshman-junior varsity program, in anticipation of an NCAA reduction in the number of allowable football assistants, a cost-cutting measure that went into effect for the 1992 season. Soon after, the Big Eight Conference passed a rule prohibiting freshman-junior varsity teams, also to cut costs.

Nebraska would play one more junior varsity game in 1993, against the Air Force Academy. Tom Osborne scheduled the game as a favor to Air Force coach Fisher DeBerry.

It was played on a Friday afternoon in early October at Memorial Stadium, in front of an audience estimated at just over 500. Many Husker fans were on the road home from Stillwater, Okla., where, on Thursday night, Nebraska had defeated Oklahoma State 27-13, Osborne’s 200th victory.

Husker grad assistants Gerry Gdowski and Bill Busch coached the team, Gdowski the offense, Busch the defense. The players practiced only once together in preparation.

Redshirted freshman quarterback Matt Turman, a 5-foot-10, 165-pound walk-on from Wahoo, Neb., who had yet to earn the nickname “the Turmanator,” directed the 49-20 victory, completing 9-of-11 passes for 182 yards and three touchdowns. He also rushed for 73 yards.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 30, 2021, 07:56:33 PM
In 1989, Gdowski had one of the greatest option QB seasons ever.  More people should know that.
19 passing TD to only 2 int.
Almost 1,000 yards rushing @ 7.9 yards per carry and 13 rushing TDs.
.
Sick.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: FearlessF on July 31, 2021, 10:09:09 AM
loved that guy, wish he would have had another year or two.  Waited in the wings behind Steve Taylor.

lost a tough game in Boulder - not his fault

Gerry Gdowski's pass intended for Jon Bostick in the end zone on the last play of the game was deflected by Colorado's Dave McCloughan, preserving the second-ranked Buffaloes' 27-21 win over third-ranked Nebraska and leaving CU all alone at the top of the Big Eight standings.

Gdowski, who threw three touchdown passes and racked up 280 total-offense yards, had driven the Huskers from the NU 12 to the CU 42 in the last 1:40 before the last-ditch pass fell incomplete.

Then ran into Peter Tom Willis in the Orange bowl -  Peter Tom Willis threw for 422 yards, the most passing yards ever against a Nebraska team, as he completed 25 of 40 passes, with no interceptions and five touchdowns.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on July 31, 2021, 06:42:16 PM
Peter Tom Willis ..... great name.  Gerry Gdowski is too.

My favorite battery pair was Bob Apodaca and Biff Pocoroba.

I wonder how many kids today are named "Biff".  Idly.  I gave my kids boring names.

My Dad's given name was "Bluford", his twin sister was named Grapell, and his older sister Desma.

My Dad changed his name when he enlisted to Odell.  Odell is a fine name I think, but I'd have picked something more prosaic, like La-Sha, pronounced "La-DA-sha" because the dash isn't silent.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: CWSooner on July 31, 2021, 07:16:22 PM
My maternal grandmother's given name was Oza Jevera.  Her sister was named Ova Ethyl.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 31, 2021, 09:53:15 PM
My granny's name was Phyllis.  That's an "old people" name, imo.  
So is Martha, but I knew one in college.  We had a fun trip down to the Keys.  She was a tiny pothead.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 01, 2021, 09:41:37 AM
My grandparents...


James (like my dad and me)
Anabelle

Salvatore (fought Jake LaMotta - tough as nails, came from Palermo)
Irene
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on August 01, 2021, 09:50:50 AM
My maternal grandfather's name was Dranoel, which was Leonard spelt backwards. (his father lost a poker bet between two men that both wanted to name their son Leonard)

He went by Jay. 

On the plus side he was the one that convinced my parents to use my middle name instead of my first name, because my first name was dumb. 
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on August 01, 2021, 10:14:22 AM
Quote from: CWSooner on July 31, 2021, 07:16:22 PM
My maternal grandmother's given name was Oza Jevera.  Her sister was named Ova Ethyl.
Is that derived from some foreign language?
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 01, 2021, 10:25:58 AM
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on August 01, 2021, 09:50:50 AM
My maternal grandfather's name was Dranoel, which was Leonard spelt backwards. (his father lost a poker bet between two men that both wanted to name their son Leonard)

He went by Jay.

On the plus side he was the one that convinced my parents to use my middle name instead of my first name, because my first name was dumb.
So your middle name is Brutus? 
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: CWSooner on August 01, 2021, 11:21:31 AM
Quote from: Cincydawg on August 01, 2021, 10:14:22 AM
Is that derived from some foreign language?
Don't know.  "Ova" is Latin for eggs.
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on August 01, 2021, 11:49:30 AM
Quote from: CWSooner on August 01, 2021, 11:21:31 AM
Don't know.  "Ova" is Latin for eggs.
Don't you see how powerful the egg lobby is?!?!
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Gigem on August 02, 2021, 09:44:33 AM
Have a great great great grandmother whose name was Una.  My aunt knew all the family history, she just died last year at age 92.  I wish I had paid better attention to all the things she knew.  
Title: Re: The Club of Helmets
Post by: Cincydawg on August 02, 2021, 10:20:00 AM
Before my Mom passed, I had a pretty long conversation with her about her history.  There was a lot of course I didn't know, mostly details.  She heard about a teaching position in south Georgia in about 1943, somehow, and took it, got on a bus with a suitcase of everything she had and arrived in this small town where the home ec teacher had just passed.  She said much of the town had assembled at midnight to meet her.  She stayed in a boarding house with other females, she said.

She had been working as a chemist at Oak Ridge doing analysis of "rain water" for Compound X.  She said they used wet methods and then got in a spectrophotometer and the analysis now was boring and she wanted another job.  She then moved after a few years to Baldwin, GA to teach and later met my father there when he returned from the war.

No internet obviously, somehow folks still got "news" about stuff and how to secure lodging in small towns.