header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Teams from the 1950s

 (Read 8466 times)

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71170
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2020, 05:47:40 AM »
Maybe the 1970s was the decade where the current Helmet Teams were "cemented" into modernity?  Teams that did well in that decade became HTs???

As noted Ohio State and Oklahoma and Texas were nothing remarkable until 1950 or so.  The list of HT Programs evolves, slowly.  It would be interesting to contrive such a list by decade, starting say in 1910.  You might see a list including UM but also Yale and Vandy and Princeton back then, not sure.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #71 on: April 06, 2020, 01:05:00 PM »
It's a little clearer if you take it year by year.
Oklahoma was good out of the blocks post-WWII, and was a team that could have been named national champs (at 11-0) in 1949.
Starting with the 10-1 1948 team, it had its greatest stretch ever going through the '58 (10-1) season.  107-8-2 over that 11-year stretch.  But the Wilkinson magic faded (not just coincidentally as Bud's former player Darrell Royal really got it going in Austin) and Bud finished 7-3, 3-6-1, 5-5, 8-3, 8-2.  That went through the '63 season.  Bud's successor was long-time assistant poor old Gomer Jones, who went 9-11-1 over two years.  The rest of the '60s were "OK," but just that, with the exception of the overachieving '67 team that was 3 missed FGs against Texas in a 9-7 loss from being undefeated and possibly national champs.  Then seasons of 7-4 and 6-4 closed out the '60s.

Then, in 1970, in the bye week before the RRS, OU installed Texas' wishbone offense (only emphasizing more speed and less power) and ended up with a 7-4-1 season and momentum.  Then they ripped off a great decade, with Barry Switzer taking over from Chuck Fairbanks for the '73 season.  11-1, 11-1, 10-0-1, 11-0, 11-1, 9-2-1, 10-2, 11-1, 11-1, with 2 MNCs in there.  (Bama had a lower winning percentage, but won 3 MNCs, over the same period.)  The '80s were a down-up-down decade.  Subpar recruiting led to a 10-2, 7-4-1, 8-4, 8-4 start.  Then, '85 through '87, they went 33-3 with an MNC in '85 and losing to Miami in the '87 MNC game.  But then a decline at the end, 9-3, Switzer getting forced out, and closing out with 7-4 under Gary Gibbs in '89.  The '90s then made the '60s look like a roaring success story.  8-3, 9-3, 5-4-2, 9-3, 6-6, and Gibbs getting fired.  A 5-5-1 season under Howard Smellsofbourbon, and then the worst 3-year span in the program's history under John Blake, 3-8, 4-8, 5-6.  Bob Stoops' first year, at 7-5, closed out the decade.  2000 brought 13-0 and an NC, and another nice run--albeit with disappointing performances in NC games--from that point through the 2019 season.

So, up at the end of the '40s, down at the end of the '50s carrying into the mid-1960s, a one-year spike, then back to mediocrity for the rest of the decade, then a great decade in the '70s, a good decade in the '80s, a lousy decade in the '90s, a great start to the '00s, and a good run since then.
One of my plans for this off-season was to do a 10-year rolling winning percentage chart for at least all of the helmets (maybe Mandel's Kings and Barons) to look at this in more detail.  Just using decades can be highly misleading because if a team was REALLY good from say 1955-1965 and REALLY bad in the early 1950's and late 1960's then the 50's and 60's are going going to look mediocre when in fact that team wasn't mediocre for those 10 years they were REALLY good in the middle and bad outside of that.  

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #72 on: April 06, 2020, 01:09:37 PM »
Maybe the 1970s was the decade where the current Helmet Teams were "cemented" into modernity?  Teams that did well in that decade became HTs???

As noted Ohio State and Oklahoma and Texas were nothing remarkable until 1950 or so.  The list of HT Programs evolves, slowly.  It would be interesting to contrive such a list by decade, starting say in 1910.  You might see a list including UM but also Yale and Vandy and Princeton back then, not sure.
I don't know.  

Dude (has a new name on here, I can't remember it) has been pushing the idea for years that the Helmets were "fixed" in the 1970's and I've been highly resistant to that theory.  I have two major objections to the theory:
  • I don't think anything is truly permanent.  I think if you suck long enough you'll cease to be a helmet and if you are good long enough you will become a helmet regardless of whether you were or were not good in the 1970's.  
  • I can't understand why the 1970's are THE decade that determines this.  Why not the 1960's or the 1980's?  Why not the 1950's or 1990's?  If it is just because the 1970's were ~50 years ago then in a few more years it will be the 1980's and later the 1990's.  



Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71170
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #73 on: April 06, 2020, 01:17:16 PM »
My premise is that our current helmets all had a good decade in the 1970s and whatever status they had going in was confirmed and strengthened in some cases, and they are still viewed as helmets - Texas, OU, ND, Bama, OSU, UM, USC - those are my Blue Chips (for the moment).

To some degree, I think of this as pertaining to who would be exciting to schedule for my lesser team, and it's all of them.  No matter how bad USC might be, they still carry that panache (for now).  As a fan, I'd be excited to schedule Wisconsin and Penn State and teams of that ilk, but it wouldn't "fee" the same.

Some of this for me of course is because UGA didn't play anyone of note on the road for eons (1965 to about 2005 or so) outside bowls.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37398
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2020, 01:18:55 PM »
I know the NCAA lost the court case regarding TV rights in 1984, but were the 70's when NCAA football really took off as a TV product?

Just a guess
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71170
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2020, 01:23:24 PM »
I recall the 1980 season for some reason, and even then for UGA to be on TV was notable.  I was trying to listen to radio at night most games.  The UGA -UF game was not shown in Cincinnati because of Kent State playing Akron, I'm serious, but that game ended early and they did switch over at the end.

I think cable is what expanded CFB TV.

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2020, 02:37:02 PM »
One of my plans for this off-season was to do a 10-year rolling winning percentage chart for at least all of the helmets (maybe Mandel's Kings and Barons) to look at this in more detail.  Just using decades can be highly misleading because if a team was REALLY good from say 1955-1965 and REALLY bad in the early 1950's and late 1960's then the 50's and 60's are going going to look mediocre when in fact that team wasn't mediocre for those 10 years they were REALLY good in the middle and bad outside of that.
Seems like the old College Football Data Warehouse may have had that feature.  Maybe a rolling 25-year average too.

Alas, it is no more!
Play Like a Champion Today

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2020, 04:06:40 PM »
Seems like the old College Football Data Warehouse may have had that feature.  Maybe a rolling 25-year average too.

Alas, it is no more!
I can get the data keyed in at least for the Helmets and maybe the semi-helmets.  Once I get it keyed in, I could switch from 10-year rolling winning percentage to 25-year rolling winning percentage pretty easily.  

The main shortcoming to me doing it is that it would be limited to ONLY those schools that I chose to include.  Ie, I'm not keying in every single college football program that ever existed.  I'm just not.  

My thought was to do it for every school that has a case to be a "helmet".  Ie, using Stewart Mandel's Kings, Barons, Knights, and Peasants I'd include every school that had been listed as a King on any of Mandel's lists:
  • Alabama (all three lists)
  • Florida (3)
  • FSU (3)
  • Miami (3)
  • Michigan (3)
  • Notre Dame (3)
  • Ohio State (3)
  • Oklahoma (3)
  • Penn State (3)
  • Texas (3)
  • USC (3)
  • Tennessee (2, 2017 deletion)
  • Nebraska (2, 2017 deletion)
  • LSU (2, 2012 addition)
  • Clemson (1, 2017 addition)


Of the schools included on all three of Mandel's lists (2007, 2012, 2017) I think the three most frequently questioned are the three Florida Schools.  Florida, Florida State, and Miami have been very good for quite some time now but there are still plenty of living fans who can remember when UF, FSU, and Miami were not nationally relevant.  Then there are the four that Mandel added or deleted:
  • Tennessee:  I think they are somewhat of a borderline helmet.  They have a lot of great history but this is a REALLY strong group and when you compare Tennessee to the other "Kings" they tend to fall near the bottom in most metrics.  
  • Nebraska:  When Mandel took Nebraska off of his list of Helmets in 2017 he said this:  "I’m 41 years old. In my teens, 20s and early-to-mid 30s, you could never have convinced me Nebraska would one day be viewed as anything less than college football royalty. But today’s recruits were not even born the last time the Huskers won even a conference championship, in 1999, much less Tom Osborne’s three national titles in four years from 1994-97."  I'm almost exactly his age and I feel much the same.  Nebraska's run from 1962-2003 under Devaney, Osborne, and Solich was incredible.  For those ~4 decades they were among the top two or three on nearly any metric you could choose to rate programs.  The problem is that they also have a lot of decidedly mediocre performance outside of those ~4 decades and it has been a REALLY long time since Nebraska has looked like a true helmet.  
  • LSU:  Their NC this year makes Mandel look pretty smart for including them back in 2017 but I still have my doubts.  LSU isn't up with the rest of this group on most long-term comparisons.  If they keep performing at their current level then they'll be an obvious helmet eventually but if they sink back to mediocrity . . .
  • Clemson:  I strongly disagree with this decision.  Clemson has been phenomenal over the past decade or so but their overall history is simply nowhere close to most of the rest of the helmets.  Maybe this is their new normal and they are a helmet but it is also possible that many years from now Clemson fans will still be looking back wishing they could have this back.  We'll see.  


CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2020, 04:44:41 PM »
I can get the data keyed in at least for the Helmets and maybe the semi-helmets.  Once I get it keyed in, I could switch from 10-year rolling winning percentage to 25-year rolling winning percentage pretty easily. 

The main shortcoming to me doing it is that it would be limited to ONLY those schools that I chose to include.  Ie, I'm not keying in every single college football program that ever existed.  I'm just not. 

My thought was to do it for every school that has a case to be a "helmet".  Ie, using Stewart Mandel's Kings, Barons, Knights, and Peasants I'd include every school that had been listed as a King on any of Mandel's lists:
  • Alabama (all three lists)
  • Florida (3)
  • FSU (3)
  • Miami (3)
  • Michigan (3)
  • Notre Dame (3)
  • Ohio State (3)
  • Oklahoma (3)
  • Penn State (3)
  • Texas (3)
  • USC (3)
  • Tennessee (2, 2017 deletion)
  • Nebraska (2, 2017 deletion)
  • LSU (2, 2012 addition)
  • Clemson (1, 2017 addition)


Of the schools included on all three of Mandel's lists (2007, 2012, 2017) I think the three most frequently questioned are the three Florida Schools.  Florida, Florida State, and Miami have been very good for quite some time now but there are still plenty of living fans who can remember when UF, FSU, and Miami were not nationally relevant.  Then there are the four that Mandel added or deleted:
  • Tennessee:  I think they are somewhat of a borderline helmet.  They have a lot of great history but this is a REALLY strong group and when you compare Tennessee to the other "Kings" they tend to fall near the bottom in most metrics. 
  • Nebraska:  When Mandel took Nebraska off of his list of Helmets in 2017 he said this:  "I’m 41 years old. In my teens, 20s and early-to-mid 30s, you could never have convinced me Nebraska would one day be viewed as anything less than college football royalty. But today’s recruits were not even born the last time the Huskers won even a conference championship, in 1999, much less Tom Osborne’s three national titles in four years from 1994-97."  I'm almost exactly his age and I feel much the same.  Nebraska's run from 1962-2003 under Devaney, Osborne, and Solich was incredible.  For those ~4 decades they were among the top two or three on nearly any metric you could choose to rate programs.  The problem is that they also have a lot of decidedly mediocre performance outside of those ~4 decades and it has been a REALLY long time since Nebraska has looked like a true helmet. 
  • LSU:  Their NC this year makes Mandel look pretty smart for including them back in 2017 but I still have my doubts.  LSU isn't up with the rest of this group on most long-term comparisons.  If they keep performing at their current level then they'll be an obvious helmet eventually but if they sink back to mediocrity . . .
  • Clemson:  I strongly disagree with this decision.  Clemson has been phenomenal over the past decade or so but their overall history is simply nowhere close to most of the rest of the helmets.  Maybe this is their new normal and they are a helmet but it is also possible that many years from now Clemson fans will still be looking back wishing they could have this back.  We'll see.
I think your reasoning on what you are doing is solid, Medina.
I would interject that Nebraska had a pretty good run in the first 22 years of the last century in addition to '62 through '03.
Play Like a Champion Today

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71170
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2020, 06:45:46 PM »
I think I dropped Nebraska into the near helmet group myself inadvertently.  I think USC should be on the fence also, teetering.

The current "Three Kings" are Bama, Clemson, and Ohio State, I think.  Oklahoma could be fourth.  Those three seem to be 1, 2, 3 in some order each preseason, and fairly often post season.

I suspect for most of us if we woke up and learned we signed for an H&A series with any of them, we'd think "Whoa.".

If you signed with USC, you might think "Cool, we'll probably be able to beat them twice and get some luster.".

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37398
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2020, 06:57:11 PM »
friggin youngsters - 41 years old
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6045
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2020, 09:22:29 PM »
I think I dropped Nebraska into the near helmet group myself inadvertently.  I think USC should be on the fence also, teetering.

The current "Three Kings" are Bama, Clemson, and Ohio State, I think.  Oklahoma could be fourth.  Those three seem to be 1, 2, 3 in some order each preseason, and fairly often post season.

I suspect for most of us if we woke up and learned we signed for an H&A series with any of them, we'd think "Whoa.".

If you signed with USC, you might think "Cool, we'll probably be able to beat them twice and get some luster.".
That's why I'm pissed that we haven't scheduled a series with the Trojans.  First, we owe them some payback and, second, if we're going to play a series with some lousy-ass southern California team, why don't we make it USC instead of UCLA?
Play Like a Champion Today

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71170
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #82 on: April 07, 2020, 07:09:41 AM »
Yeah, I think the Dawgs have a series with Cal or UCLA, I can't even remember and don't care.  Meh.  If we had one with USC I'd remember.


medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: Teams from the 1950s
« Reply #83 on: April 07, 2020, 08:21:09 AM »
Yeah, I think the Dawgs have a series with Cal or UCLA, I can't even remember and don't care.  Meh.  If we had one with USC I'd remember.
That right there is why they are a helmet.  

If your team beat a 5-7 USC you'd be more excited than if they beat an 8-4 Cal/UCLA.  

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.