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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 01:45:58 PM

Title: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 01:45:58 PM
I have no clue who won the MNC in 1950, other than round up the usual suspects.  ND?  USC?  Michigan?  Anybody here know without looking?  We have yet to see much from Texas and only some from Oklahoma, who I think had a streak or something back whenever.  Ohio State is just starting to be relevant.  Minnesota might still be relevant.  OK, let's use this cool Internet thing and find out.

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 01:48:09 PM
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/7/27/12295010/kentucky-national-championship-trophy-oklahoma-tennessee-these-things-happen (https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2016/7/27/12295010/kentucky-national-championship-trophy-oklahoma-tennessee-these-things-happen)

OK, UK did not make any shred of a notion of being relevant.  Huh.

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 01:50:15 PM
http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1950.html (http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1950.html)

This is a pretty good site I think, I'm going with them.



(https://i.imgur.com/UWmjQBP.png)

Pictured above is 11-1 Kentucky's consensus All American quarterback, Babe Parilli, tossing the pigskin in a huge, season-defining 13-7 upset of #1 Oklahoma (10-1) in the Sugar Bowl. The AP poll ended before the bowls, so Oklahoma is still considered the 1950 mythical national champion (MNC) by those who care about partial-season poll "champions." I don't, so I do not consider Oklahoma 1950 to be a national champion, mythical or otherwise. But who is?

The #2 team was Army, 8-0 at the time of the last poll, but the AP poll didn't just end before the bowl games, it ended before the regular season was even over, and Army was upset by 3-6 Navy a week after the poll ended, finishing them at 8-1. The #3 team was 9-2 Texas, but they lost to Oklahoma during the regular season, and they lost to 11-1 Tennessee in the Cotton Bowl.

11-1 Tennessee, who was #4, is therefore our rightful national champion of the 1950 season. They took an upset loss to 4-5 Mississippi State early in the season, but they bounced back with 4 wins over AP-rated teams, more than anyone else attained this season. The biggest win came 7-0 over 11-1 Kentucky, as Kentucky gave #1 Oklahoma their only loss in the Sugar Bowl. Tennessee's victory over #3 Texas in the Cotton Bowl was just icing on the cake.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 01:53:06 PM
9-0 Princeton is the last of the schools that claims an MNC for this season. Their claim is no surprise, because Princeton's habit of claiming retroactive MNCs would make even an SEC school blush. They claim 28 national championships, the most of any school. Some of those claims are dubious, and this one is simply laughable. It is the last season for which any Ivy League team claims an MNC. By this point in time, the schools now in the Ivy League had withdrawn so far from major college football that they were effectively playing in a lower division. At best, they were at the level of today's Conference USA. And if a CUSA team went 12-0 today, and played no major conference teams, would they claim an MNC? No, of course not. Though I suppose they might claim an MNC decades later, as teams are wont to do. Perhaps 30 years from now Boise State will be claiming a few from the last 10 years.

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 02:04:58 PM
I guess 1950 is about as clear a point of the word "mythical" as we could have, but perhaps some year is even better.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on March 26, 2020, 02:29:07 PM
Nov. 4, 1950

Nebraska's "Mr. Touchdown"; Bobby Reynolds Highlights from 1950 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=167&v=HFbU-VTLDvk&feature=emb_logo)
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on March 26, 2020, 04:57:08 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 01:45:58 PM
I have no clue who won the MNC in 1950, other than round up the usual suspects.  ND?  USC?  Michigan?  Anybody here know without looking?  We have yet to see much from Texas and only some from Oklahoma, who I think had a streak or something back whenever.  Ohio State is just starting to be relevant.  Minnesota might still be relevant.  OK, let's use this cool Internet thing and find out.
Oklahoma.

Lost to Kentucky in the Sugar Bowl, but the polls had closed.

The idea of retroactively determining who would have been the national champ had bowls counted is like going back and retroactively counting NFL preseason games.  The bowl games were exhibitions, and different teams placed differing amounts of emphasis on winning them.

I still wish OU had beaten Kentucky, of course.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 05:03:40 PM
Yeah, there is a point to be made that bowls were exhibitions back then and should not be included.

I do enjoy this guy's "analysis" though, I'll go with his stuff for now.  He says Tennessee.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on March 26, 2020, 05:05:05 PM
some folks seem to think of the bowls as meaningless these days
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on March 26, 2020, 05:11:01 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 05:03:40 PM
Yeah, there is a point to be made that bowls were exhibitions back then and should not be included.

I do enjoy this guy's "analysis" though, I'll go with his stuff for now.  He says Tennessee.
I understand your point.
But there's a GIGO factor to his analysis too.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 05:11:04 PM
Quote from: FearlessF on March 26, 2020, 05:05:05 PM
some folks seem to think of the bowls as meaningless these days
They are, if the Dawgs lose.  You probably know my list of excuses.  I about wore them out against Texas.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 26, 2020, 06:59:03 PM
Technically OSU kicked off the 50s by winning the 1950 Rose Bowl that concluded the 1949 season. 

1950 was Wes Fesler's final season as HC. They finished 6-3, good for second in the Big Ten, and Vic Janowic won the Heisman. All three losses were by a TD or less, two were against top ten teams in SMU and Illinois, and the other was against the Wolverines. The Michigan loss was the death blow for the Fesler regime, as he struggled mightily in that series, going 0-3-1 in that series as HC. Fesler had been an All American player at OSU during the late 20s, leading the Buckeyes to two Michigan wins in 28 and 29. 

Enter Woody Hayes. WWH's first three seasons were nothing to write home about, although he did beat the Wolverines in 52; OSU's lone home game in the series during that stretch. But then he finally earned his keep by winning the NC in 1954, going undefeated/untied and besting USC in the Rose Bowl. In 55 they didn't repeat, but they did beat Mich again, and Hopalong Cassidy won the Heisman. The 1957 team also won the NC, beating Oregon in the Rose Bowl after winning THE GAME. OSU also defeated the Wolverines in 58 and 59. 
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 27, 2020, 08:33:18 PM
(https://s3media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/729/705/9705729.jpg?width=600&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on March 27, 2020, 09:13:40 PM
Cruelly hilarious!
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on March 27, 2020, 09:44:35 PM
1/2 
national 
championship
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 08:56:35 AM
https://tiptop25.com/champ1951.html (https://tiptop25.com/champ1951.html)

(https://i.imgur.com/T7HzOJx.png)

Pictured above is Maryland's Hall of Fame quarterback, Jack Scarbath, scoring a touchdown in a 28-13 victory over Tennessee in the Sugar Bowl. Tennessee had finished #1 in the AP poll, so this was the 2nd straight season that the AP poll's "champion" lost its bowl game. In 1950 (https://tiptop25.com/champ1950.html), it had been Oklahoma that won the regular season AP "title" then lost their bowl game. 11-1 Tennessee was the real champion of 1950, as they had beaten 11-1 Kentucky, who was the team that beat 10-1 Oklahoma in the Sugar Bowl. So this season was the AP poll giving Tennessee a "title" to make up for 1950. The AP poll would give Maryland a "title" to make up for this season in 1953, after which, you guessed it, Maryland lost their bowl game. Gee, it's too bad the AP poll couldn't be bothered to give teams titles for the seasons when they actually deserved titles.

The huge Sugar Bowl win this season finished Maryland at 10-0 and dropped Tennessee to 10-1. Tennessee does claim a mythical national championship (MNC) for this season based on winning the major polls, but I do not recognize partial-season MNCs myself. Maryland's real contender for the 1951 crown is 9-0 Michigan State, who finished ranked #2 in the AP poll. Maryland was #3. Of course, it need hardly be said that Maryland would have easily won a post-bowl AP poll after their destruction of #1 Tennessee, who had won all of their games by more than a touchdown prior to the Sugar Bowl.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 09:00:53 AM
THis is his fixed AP poll:


1) Maryland 10-0+2
2) Tennessee 10-1-1
3) Michigan State 9-0-1
4) Illinois 9-0-1--
5) Georgia Tech 11-0-1--
6) Princeton 9-0--
7) Wisconsin 7-1-1+1
8) Stanford 9-2-1
9) California 8-2+3
10) Baylor 8-2-1-1
11) Texas 7-3IN
12) Oklahoma 8-2-2
13) Kentucky 8-4+2
14) Virginia 8-1-1
15) San Francisco 9-0-1
16) UCLA 5-3-1+1
17) Southern Cal 7-3IN
18) Washington State 7-3--
19) Notre Dame 7-2-1IN
20) Purdue 5-4IN
21) Ohio State 4-3-2IN
22) Northwestern 5-4IN
23) Colorado 7-3IN
24) Kansas 8-2IN
25) Texas Christian 6-5-14



Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on March 28, 2020, 09:09:15 AM
I've always favored the coaches poll over the AP poll

bitter, drunken, sportswriters
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 09:10:42 AM
I suspect it most is a "graduate assistant's poll" ... and they usually have no major differences.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on March 28, 2020, 09:27:56 AM
oh, the coaches poll has its flaws for sure, but for the most part I've felt less bias and better choice in the subtle differences
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 10:43:04 AM
I like this guy's approach, whether I agree in all cases is different of course.  The point about why bowls could be ignored is a good one, I don't know where I fall on that.  I "think" by 1965 or so, most teams took bowls seriously, maybe earlier than that.  Of course, ND didn't play and the B1G only sent their top team to one bowl.

The bowl thing is fabulously bizarre and random and entropically aligned.  I remember when the Gator Bowl was the best other than the four majors.  Then the Cap One grabbed that spot.  The Peach Bowl nearly failed and washed out of course.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 10:57:55 AM
https://tiptop25.com/champ1952.html (https://tiptop25.com/champ1952.html)

Another year with a dispute (in addition to Princeton):

(https://i.imgur.com/7IrWCud.png)

Pictured above is the Michigan State field goal that beat 2-7 Oregon State 17-14 in Portland on the last play of the game. It was the closest call for Michigan State on the way to its 2nd straight 9-0 season and first-ever finish atop the AP poll. They also topped the UPI coaches' poll, leaving 12-0 Georgia Tech #2 in both major polls. However, Georgia Tech finished #1 in the International News Service poll of sportswriters, and they claim their own mythical national championship (MNC) for this season based on that. This was the debut season for the INS poll. It was only around for 6 seasons, as the INS merged with the UPI in 1958.

Here is how all of the organizations listed in the NCAA Records Book see the 1952 mythical national championship (omitting math/computer ratings (https://tiptop25.com/mathratings.html), which are not generally accepted as MNCs):

9-0 Michigan State: AP Poll (https://tiptop25.com/ap.html), UPI Poll (coaches), CFB Researchers (https://tiptop25.com/cfbresearchers.html), Helms (https://tiptop25.com/helms.html), National Championship Foundation (https://tiptop25.com/ncfoundation.html)
12-0 Georgia Tech: INS Poll (sportswriters)

As you can see, Michigan State is an almost unanimous choice, which is odd, because Georgia Tech defeated more rated opponents (in the AP and coaches' polls), and MSU had the aforementioned razor-close win over Oregon State, while no unrated team came within a touchdown of Georgia Tech.



Bowls were competing heavily with each other to secure the best teams at this time, and that pushed team selection earlier and earlier every year. This season, Georgia Tech committed to the Sugar Bowl over the Orange Bowl on November 4th, almost 2 weeks before their season-defining game against Alabama was even played. The Sugar waited on selecting their opponent, presumed to be defending national champion Maryland, who was 7-0 and carrying a 22 game unbeaten streak into a game at 7-0-2 Mississippi on the same day that Georgia Tech played Alabama. But Mississippi upset Maryland 21-14, and thereby secured the Sugar Bowl slot for themselves. So it was an all-SEC Sugar Bowl, Georgia Tech 11-0 and ranked #2, Mississippi 8-0-2 and #7. 80,000 attended, and the game was nationally televised for the first time.

Michigan State defeated their unranked opponents by an average of 39-12, and Georgia Tech defeated theirs by an average of 32-3.


What we have here is a split title, and I think you could rank either team at #1. I would go with Georgia Tech at #1 myself, because they played more ranked teams, and Michigan State had the awful performance at 2-7 Oregon State, while no unranked team came within a touchdown of Tech. MSU's 14-7 win at 4-3-2 Purdue was also worse than any Georgia Tech performance. On the other hand, Michigan State's 21-3 win over #3 Notre Dame outshines all of Georgia Tech's results enough that MSU at #1 is logically viable.

MSU's 48-7 win over #14 Syracuse and 34-7 rout of #16 Penn State were also very impressive, but Georgia Tech beat #8 Alabama, Alabama beat Syracuse 61-6 in the Orange Bowl, and Syracuse beat PSU 25-7, so I don't see those MSU routs giving them an advantage over Georgia Tech.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 11:34:54 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/9TmB2WM.png)

http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1953.html (http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1953.html)

Pictured above is #4 Oklahoma scoring the touchdown that beat #1 Maryland 7-0 in the Orange Bowl. This was the 3rd time in 4 seasons that the AP poll's #1 team lost its bowl game. That result left Maryland 10-1, and it left 9-0-1 Notre Dame (ranked #2) as the actual mythical national champion (MNC) of 1953, as they had won 28-21 at 9-1-1 Oklahoma in their season opener.

Here is how all of the organizations listed in the NCAA Records Book see the 1953 mythical national championship (omitting math/computer ratings (http://www.tiptop25.com/mathratings.html), which are not generally accepted as MNCs):

10-1 Maryland: AP Poll (http://www.tiptop25.com/ap.html), UPI Poll (coaches), INS Poll (sportswriters) 
9-0-1 Notre Dame: Helms (http://www.tiptop25.com/helms.html), National Championship Foundation (http://www.tiptop25.com/ncfoundation.html)
9-1-1 Oklahoma: CFB Researchers (http://www.tiptop25.com/cfbresearchers.html)

The major poll selections of Maryland are understandable, as those polls didn't count bowl games, and Maryland was 10-0 when they voted (though Maryland had not played a single team that was rated in the final AP poll). The selection of Oklahoma by the College Football Researchers Association, on the other hand, is a real head-scratcher, given that Notre Dame had a better record and defeated Oklahoma in Norman. And in addition to the head-to-head result, Notre Dame's tie came to 5-3-1 Iowa, rated #9, while Oklahoma's tie came to 3-5-1 Pittsburgh, a team Notre Dame beat 23-14 the next week. Oklahoma had 4 close wins (touchdown or less), and Notre Dame had 1. The fact is, Oklahoma is a simply awful selection as 1953 MNC, an embarrassment for the CFRA.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 11:37:40 AM
Notre Dame next won 37-7 at 2-7 Purdue, then they had to rally from a 14-0 deficit to beat 3-5-1 Pittsburgh 23-14 at home (Johnny Lattner pictured carrying the ball in that game above). The next game was a big one, as they were facing 4-0-1 Georgia Tech, who had not lost a game since 1950, a 31 game unbeaten streak. Notre Dame was ranked #1, Georgia Tech #4. The game was supposed to have been played in Atlanta, but Notre Dame had some black players, and they would not have been allowed to play in Atlanta. Georgia Tech either had to give up their home game or cancel the series entirely, and they chose to play in South Bend.

With his team leading 7-0 at halftime, Frank Leahy suddenly collapsed in the locker room, and was taken to the hospital. The team feared it was a heart attack, and legend says a priest delivered the last rites. It was a pancreatic attack, which may have seemed like good news at first, but at the end of the season, Leahy would retire, citing health concerns and his doctor's orders. Notre Dame came out of the locker room in a bit of shock, and Georgia Tech marched to a tying touchdown. But Notre Dame came roaring back in the same quarter, quarterback Ralph Guglielmi hitting halfback Joe Heap for a touchdown pass, and tackle Art Hunter recovering a bad snap in Georgia Tech's end zone, giving the Irish a commanding 21-7 lead. Both teams scored in the 4th quarter, making the final score 27-14. Georgia Tech went on to finish 9-2-1, and I have them ranked #6 for 1953.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 11:41:58 AM
Notre Dame outgained Iowa 358 yards to 198, but turnovers and mistakes (such as dropping an easy touchdown pass) were costly for the Irish, and they had to resort to faking injuries to stop the clock on both of their touchdown drives to eke out a 14-14 tie. Iowa intercepted a 1st quarter pass and then marched 72 yards to lead 7-0. Halfback Johnny Lattner returned a punt 41 yards very late in the first half, but the play appeared to be for naught when quarterback Ralph Guglielmi was sacked at the Iowa 12 yard line, the clock draining away and Notre Dame out of time-outs. But tackle "Fainting" Frank Varrichione came to the rescue, collapsing to the turf on his way back to the huddle and screaming in "pain" to get an injury time-out (pictured below). Guglielmi hit a tying touchdown pass to end Dan Shannon on the next play.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on March 28, 2020, 11:43:58 AM
cheaters

@utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) would not approve!
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: utee94 on March 28, 2020, 11:45:54 AM
Quote from: FearlessF on March 28, 2020, 11:43:58 AM
cheaters

@utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) would not approve!
Soccer flopping pansies.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on March 28, 2020, 11:56:26 AM

Quote
Pictured above is the Michigan State field goal that beat 2-7 Oregon State 17-14 in Portland on the last play of the game. It was the closest call for Michigan State on the way to its 2nd straight 9-0 season and first-ever finish atop the AP poll. They also topped the UPI coaches' poll, leaving 12-0 Georgia Tech #2 in both major polls. However, Georgia Tech finished #1 in the International News Service poll of sportswriters, and they claim their own mythical national championship (MNC) for this season based on that. This was the debut season for the INS poll. It was only around for 6 seasons, as the INS merged with the UPI in 1958.
I think I'm correcting the historical record here.  I believe that UPI was the result of a merger of what was then the UP with the INS.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 12:59:44 PM
I chuckled because a couple ND players were accused of flopping in the UGA game.  It looked that way to me, and they came right back in the game.

My solution would be if you leave the game after going down, you stay out until the next series.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on March 28, 2020, 01:23:58 PM
mine too
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Hawkinole on March 30, 2020, 12:42:01 AM
Quote from: Cincydawg on March 28, 2020, 11:34:54 AM

The major poll selections of Maryland are understandable, as those polls didn't count bowl games, and Maryland was 10-0 when they voted (though Maryland had not played a single team that was rated in the final AP poll). The selection of Oklahoma by the College Football Researchers Association, on the other hand, is a real head-scratcher, given that Notre Dame had a better record and defeated Oklahoma in Norman. And in addition to the head-to-head result, Notre Dame's tie came to 5-3-1 Iowa, rated #9, while Oklahoma's tie came to 3-5-1 Pittsburgh, a team Notre Dame beat 23-14 the next week. Oklahoma had 4 close wins (touchdown or less), and Notre Dame had 1. The fact is, Oklahoma is a simply awful selection as 1953 MNC, an embarrassment for the CFRA.

The Iowa at Notre Dame game most likely led to this season ending rivalry game ending after 1969 and thereafter being replaced on Iowa's schedule by Iowa State. Ugh, Iowa State.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 07:16:10 AM
https://tiptop25.com/champ1954.html (https://tiptop25.com/champ1954.html)

(https://tiptop25.com/1954ohstate_mich_cassady_td.png)

Here is my painting of Ohio State halfback Hopalong Cassady hopping in for the touchdown that made the final score 21-7 over Michigan in 1954. The Buckeyes then beat Southern Cal 20-7 in the Rose Bowl to finish 10-0. But two other major teams also sported perfect records this season: 9-0 UCLA and 10-0 Oklahoma. Unlike UCLA, however, Oklahoma stirred little to no national championship debate.

Here is how all of the organizations listed in the NCAA Records Book see the 1954 mythical national championship (omitting math/computer ratings (https://tiptop25.com/mathratings.html), which are not generally accepted as MNCs):

10-0 Ohio State: AP Poll (https://tiptop25.com/ap.html), INS Poll (sportswriters), CFB Researchers (https://tiptop25.com/cfbresearchers.html) (tie), Helms (https://tiptop25.com/helms.html) (tie), National Championship Foundation (https://tiptop25.com/ncfoundation.html) (tie)
9-0 UCLA: UPI Poll (coaches), Football Writers Association of America, National Championship Foundation (https://tiptop25.com/ncfoundation.html) (tie), CFB Researchers (https://tiptop25.com/cfbresearchers.html) (tie), Helms (https://tiptop25.com/helms.html) (tie)

This was the debut season for the Football Writers Association of America "championship," a poll of member writers that was very different from the AP poll in that it was done after the bowl games. The FWAA handed out the Grantland Rice Trophy to its champion, as it did every year through 2013, after which the system was retired, the FWAA being satisfied with the debut of the 4-team college football playoff in 2014.

As you can see, people were perfectly divided on whether Ohio State or UCLA deserved to sit on this season's throne, but I'll be looking at the completely ignored Oklahoma team as well. They did go 10-0, and they would also post perfect records in each of the next 2 seasons, winning a pair of consensus MNCs... should they have had a threepeat?

Defending champion 9-1 Notre Dame was upset by 5-3-1 Purdue 27-14 early in the season and thus blew their chance at repeating this season. 8-1 Miami-Florida lost 14-13 at 8-3 Auburn, but their schedule wasn't good enough for MNC contention anyway. That is even more true in the cases of 8-1 West Virginia (lost 13-10 to 4-5 Pittsburgh) and 8-0-1 Virginia Tech (tied by 4-4-2 William & Mary).

All rankings in the following article, except as noted, come from my 1954 fixed AP poll (https://tiptop25.com/fixing1954.html).
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 07:21:18 AM
That brings us to Ohio State vs UCLA. Obviously Ohio State played a vastly tougher schedule, and their best win, 31-14 over #7 Wisconsin, was better than UCLA's best win, 12-7 over #10 Maryland. I would select Ohio State as #1 myself. However, playing a tougher schedule does not mean that a team is better, and in this case I think that UCLA performed better enough overall that they are a legitimate option for #1 over Ohio State. UCLA had one poor outing against an unrated opponent, while OSU had 2. UCLA had a better average point differential than Ohio State did against rated opponents (UCLA 23-4, OSU 24-10), against unrated opponents that were .500 or better (UCLA 34-3, OSU 24-7), and against losers (UCLA 47-10, OSU 27-5). And of course, UCLA performed better against each of their 2 common opponents.

It's a split title.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 07:21:59 AM
Neither UCLA nor OU played in a bowl game that year ....
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on March 30, 2020, 10:03:29 AM
Quote from: Cincydawg on March 26, 2020, 01:50:15 PM
 I don't, so I do not consider Oklahoma 1950 to be a national champion, mythical or otherwise. But who is?

The #2 team was Army, 8-0 at the time of the last poll, but the AP poll didn't just end before the bowl games, it ended before the regular season was even over, and Army was upset by 3-6 Navy a week after the poll ended, finishing them at 8-1. The #3 team was 9-2 Texas, but they lost to Oklahoma during the regular season, and they lost to 11-1 Tennessee in the Cotton Bowl.

11-1 Tennessee, who was #4, is therefore our rightful national champion of the 1950 season. They took an upset loss to 4-5 Mississippi State early in the season, but they bounced back with 4 wins over AP-rated teams, more than anyone else attained this season. The biggest win came 7-0 over 11-1 Kentucky, as Kentucky gave #1 Oklahoma their only loss in the Sugar Bowl. Tennessee's victory over #3 Texas in the Cotton Bowl was just icing on the cake.

Nope.
I know in candy-land pretend time, all teams go all-out every time they take the field.  But here in reality, we can't fault Army for losing after the final poll.  Nor do we get to hold Tennessee on high for happening to win what was then a meaningless game.  
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 12:35:18 PM
You think Army didn't "go all out" because the final poll was done?

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 12:37:10 PM
Maybe Maryland didn't go all out.

http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1955.html (http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1955.html)

(https://i.imgur.com/P941Ijy.png)

Pictured above is Oklahoma's star halfback Tommy McDonald carrying the ball against Maryland in the Orange Bowl. 11-0 Oklahoma defeated 10-1 Maryland 20-6 to end all debate as far as the 1955 mythical national championship is concerned, and they were and are the unanimous choice for 1955 MNC among organizations listed in the NCAA Records Book (omitting math/computer ratings (http://www.tiptop25.com/mathratings.html), which are not generally accepted as MNCs).

One math-based ranking system (Boand) did go with 9-1 Michigan State for #1, but MSU took an upset loss at Michigan (7-2, #14), and they are not a legitimate contender for the 1955 crown. Neither are 10-1 Mississippi, who lost at Kentucky (6-3-1, #22), or 9-0 Miami-Ohio, who played no one of any value. So Oklahoma is the only team I'll be summarizing for this article.

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 12:38:47 PM


The first nose guards?(https://i.imgur.com/AerNmkj.png)
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 01:27:28 PM
His fixed poll includes only teams which would finish top 25 today in some years, plausibly:

1) Oklahoma 11-0
2) Michigan State 9-1
3) Maryland 10-1
4) UCLA 9-2
5) Ohio State 7-2
6) Texas Christian 9-2
7) Georgia Tech 9-1-1
8) Auburn 8-2-1
9) Notre Dame 8-2
10) Mississippi 10-1
11) Pittsburgh 7-4
12) Michigan 7-2
13) Southern Cal 6-4
14) Miami (Florida) 6-3
15) Miami (Ohio) 9-0
16) Stanford 6-3-1
17) Texas A&M 7-2-1
18) Navy 6-2-1
19) West Virginia 8-2
20) Army 6-3
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 02:12:24 PM
I think we're entering the time of boredom ...

http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1956.html (http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1956.html)


1) Oklahoma 10-0--
2) Iowa 9-1+1
3) Texas A&M 9-0-1+2
4) Baylor 9-2+7
5) Tennessee 10-1-3
6) Georgia Tech 10-1-2
7) Minnesota 6-1-2+5
8) Michigan 7-2-1
9) Michigan State 7-2--
10) Pittsburgh 7-3-1+3
11) Miami (Florida) 8-1-1-5
12) Texas Christian 8-3+2
13) Syracuse 7-2-5
14) Army 5-3-1IN
15) Penn State 6-2-1IN
16) Ohio State 6-3-1
17) Oregon State 7-3-1-7
18) Southern Cal 8-2--
19) UCLA 7-3IN
20) Navy 6-1-2-4
21) Oregon 4-4-2IN
22) Colorado 8-2-1-2
23) Clemson 7-2-2-4
24) Florida 6-3-1IN
25) Auburn 7-3IN



Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 30, 2020, 02:34:43 PM
Who was the worst team in each major conference over the span of that decade?
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on March 30, 2020, 03:44:49 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 12:35:18 PM
You think Army didn't "go all out" because the final poll was done?


This phrasing makes it seem like they didn't try.  Yes, they tried.  Yes, they did their assignments and played to their ability level. 
But there's trying and there's slobbering, panicked, adrenaline, snot-bubble, wolves-are-chasing-me trying...and teams tend not to do that when everything isn't on the line. 
.
And every time I suggest it, it's refuted, and I'll keep on suggesting it.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on March 30, 2020, 03:55:07 PM
we all know that motivation is a factor
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 04:10:16 PM
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on March 30, 2020, 02:34:43 PM
Who was the worst team in each major conference over the span of that decade?
That would be tough to answer I think.  We'd need The Bobs.  Auburn was 0-10 in 1950, so they are off to a good start.
In 1951 they were 5-5 and Tulane was at the bottom at 4-6.  We forget about Tulane. Auburn was 2-8 the next year, then 7-3-1 while Tulane was 1-8-1.  Then Tulane was 1-6-3 while Auburn was 8-3.  The next year Bama was 0-10 and Tulane improved to 5-4-1, Auburn 8-2-1.
In 1956 LSU was at the bottom, Tulane was so so, but they fell to 2-8 in 1957.  Auburn was 10-0.

Then in 1958 LSU goes 11-0 and Tulane was 3-7.  In 1959, Tulane was 3-6-1 while UGA finally had a good year (10-1, early loss to South Carolina, not then in the SEC).

So, Tulane "wins".
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on March 30, 2020, 05:06:13 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 07:21:59 AM
Neither UCLA nor OU played in a bowl game that year ....
It seems that for awhile the then-Big 7 had a rule against teams repeating bowl trips.  Or maybe it was just when the trip was to the Orange Bowl.  OU went 10-0 in 1950 and went to the Sugar Bowl, losing to Kentucky.  In 1951, OU went 8-2, was undisputed conference champ, and stayed home.  In 1952, OU went 8-1-1, was undisputed conference champ, and stayed home again.  In 1953, OU went 8-1-1, undisputed conference champ, and went to the Orange Bowl, beating Syracuse.  In 1954, OU went 10-0 and stayed home.  In 1955, OU went 10-0 and went to the Orange Bowl, beating Maryland.  In 1956, OU went 10-0 and stayed home.  In 1967, OU went 9-1, undisputed conference champ, and went to the Orange Bowl, beating Duke.
I'm guessing that in those years in the early '50 when OU was the Big 7 champ and stayed home, nobody from the Big 7 went bowling.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 30, 2020, 05:17:01 PM
I think the second place team went bowling.  In 1955, Nebraska went.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Riffraft on March 31, 2020, 10:04:26 AM
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on March 30, 2020, 03:44:49 PM
This phrasing makes it seem like they didn't try.  Yes, they tried.  Yes, they did their assignments and played to their ability level. 
But there's trying and there's slobbering, panicked, adrenaline, snot-bubble, wolves-are-chasing-me trying...and teams tend not to do that when everything isn't on the line.
.
And every time I suggest it, it's refuted, and I'll keep on suggesting it.
You might have a good argument for other games, but this was Army-Navy. While I wouldn't say it is as rabid as Ohio State-Michigan, there is no way that Army would not have been slobbering, panicked, adrenaline, snot-bubble, wolves-are-chasing-me trying anytime they play Navy. 
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 31, 2020, 01:14:21 PM
http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1958.html (http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1958.html)

(https://i.imgur.com/KULyPYm.png)

Pictured above is Louisiana State's star halfback Billy Cannon carrying the ball in the Sugar Bowl. The quarterback you see in the photo was knocked out of the game with an injury, so it was up to Cannon to throw the touchdown pass that defeated Clemson 7-0. That win finished LSU at 11-0, and they are an almost unanimous choice for the 1958 mythical national championship. But for the 3rd year in a row, we have at least one nay-sayer organization selecting a 1-loss Big 10 champion over a consensus choice that has a perfect record.

Here is how all of the organizations listed in the NCAA Records Book see the 1958 mythical national championship (omitting selections made by a single magazine or by math/computer ratings (http://www.tiptop25.com/mathratings.html), which are not generally accepted as MNCs):

11-0 Louisiana State: AP Poll (http://www.tiptop25.com/ap.html), CFB Researchers (http://www.tiptop25.com/cfbresearchers.html), Helms (http://www.tiptop25.com/helms.html), National Championship Foundation (http://www.tiptop25.com/ncfoundation.html), UPI Poll (coaches)

8-1-1 Iowa: Football Writers Association of America

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 31, 2020, 01:16:35 PM
1) Louisiana State 11-0
2) Iowa 8-1-1
3) Army 8-0-1
4) Auburn 9-0-1
5) Oklahoma 10-1
6) Air Force 9-0-2
7) Wisconsin 7-1-1
8) Ohio State 6-1-2
9) Syracuse 8-2
10) Texas Christian 8-2-1
11) Mississippi 9-2
12) Clemson 8-3
13) Purdue 6-1-2
14) Florida 6-4-1
15) South Carolina 7-3
16) California 7-4
17) Notre Dame 6-4
18) Southern Methodist 6-4
19) Oklahoma State 8-3
20) Rutgers 8-1
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 31, 2020, 01:17:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/HMUgkWS.png)

Pictured above is Syracuse running back Ernie Davis scoring a touchdown in a 46-0 win at Boston University. Syracuse went 11-0 this season, winning the only mythical national championship in their history. And this MNC is unanimous, at least among human selectors: 3 math-based systems rate 10-1 Mississippi #1 for 1959.

Mississippi was very powerful, but they took a tough 7-3 loss at 9-2 Louisiana State on Halloween night, snuffing their MNC hopes. 10-1 Georgia took an early upset loss at 6-4 South Carolina, but at least they won the SEC outright. 10-1 Washington took a loss to 8-2 Southern Cal, but they won the Rose Bowl, stopping the Big 10's winning streak there at 6. Wyoming was 9-1, but would not have been an MNC contender even if they'd won them all. Bowling Green was 9-0, but doesn't even make the top 25 for 1959, though they did finish #1 in the UPI "small college" poll.

With no legitimate contenders to Syracuse's MNC claim, they're the only team I'll be summarizing this time. Which is a nice break for me. All rankings in this article, except as noted, come from my 1959 fixed AP poll (https://tiptop25.com/fixing1959.html).
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on March 31, 2020, 01:18:57 PM

1) Syracuse 11-0--
2) Mississippi 10-1--
3) Louisiana State 9-2--
4) Texas 9-2--
5) Georgia 10-1--
6) Washington 10-1+2
7) Arkansas 9-2+2
8) Texas Christian 8-3-1
9) Clemson 9-2+2
10) Penn State 9-2+2
11) Alabama 7-2-2-1
12) Southern Cal 8-2+2
13) Pittsburgh 6-4+7
14) Auburn 7-3IN
15) Georgia Tech 6-5IN
16) Wyoming 9-1--
17) UCLA 5-4-1IN
18) Purdue 5-2-2IN
19) Wisconsin 7-3-13
20) Illinois 5-3-1-7
21) Northwestern 6-3IN
22) Notre Dame 5-5-5
23) Iowa 5-4IN
24) Oklahoma 7-3-9
25) Tennessee 5-4-1IN



Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on March 31, 2020, 09:59:19 PM
14) Florida 6-4-1

22) Notre Dame 5-5

must have been some tough schedules and close explainable losses
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 01, 2020, 07:37:10 AM
Notre Dame
6-4 Notre Dame, originally rated #17, took an upset loss at 5-4-1 Pittsburgh, and they defeated now-#17 Southern Methodist. Clemson, who currently sits right in front of Dame, also took an upset loss, but they did not beat a rated team, and their performances were awful. 7-3 South Carolina took 2 upset losses, one more than Notre Dame. 6-4-1 Florida took an upset loss and a tie, the tie putting them a half game worse than Notre Dame. The Irish, who also defeated 5-3-1 Indiana, 6-3 Navy, and 6-4 North Carolina, should be ranked ahead of all 3 teams currently in front of them.

Move Notre Dame up to #13, dropping Florida, South Carolina, and Clemson 1 spot each.


He actually dropped Florida 4 spots versus the actual AP poll and moved ND up 3.  This is his "logic" at work.  As I said, one can argue with it, but it's interesting to read I think.

The polls back then were often apparently biased against certainly teams and regions.  The writers did not adore the SEC for example.  I don't know why ND suffered by his accounting this year.  He mentions Auburn as being often way under ranked.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 01, 2020, 07:38:56 AM
Quote from: FearlessF on March 31, 2020, 09:59:19 PM
14) Florida 6-4-1

22) Notre Dame 5-5

must have been some tough schedules and close explainable losses
I should check this, but teams back then may not have played 3 pastries out of their ten games.   A mediocre team today can beat 3 pastries OOC and win say 5 conference games against weaker opponents and finish 8-4 and perhaps be ranked with a bowl win.  Take 2 pastries out and they are 6-4.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on April 01, 2020, 12:15:51 PM
checking the Husker's schedules for the decade of the 50's, they had South Dakota twice in those 10 seasons.  All the other games were legit.  the pastries were gone.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 01, 2020, 12:22:26 PM
UGA played "Hardin-Simmons" in 1959, the other 9 opponents were P5 teams.  The previous year it was the Citadel only.  In 1958, they played Navy and Michigan OOC.

So, I think back then a 7-3 record would be pretty decent, versus 8-4 today with 3 wins over cupcakes, croissants, and beignets.

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on April 02, 2020, 10:28:13 AM

1959-Notre Dame (Independent)
9/26vs.North Carolina (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/NorthCarolina.htm#1959) (5-5)W288
10/3@Purdue (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Purdue.htm#1959) (5-2-2)L728
10/10@California (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/California.htm#1959) (2-8)W286
10/17@Michigan State (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/MichiganState.htm#1959) (5-4)L019
10/24vs.Northwestern (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Northwestern.htm#1959) (6-3)L2430
10/31vs.Navy (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Navy.htm#1959) (5-4-1)W2522
11/7vs.Georgia Tech (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/GeorgiaTech.htm#1959) (6-5)L1014
11/14@Pittsburgh (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Pittsburgh.htm#1959) (6-4)L1328
11/21@Iowa (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Iowa.htm#1959) (5-4)W2019
11/28vs.Southern California (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/SouthernCalifornia.htm#1959) (8-2)W166
 
5-5-0
 171180

1959-Florida (SEC)
9/18@*Tulane (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Tulane.htm#1959) (3-6-1)W300
9/26vs.*Mississippi State (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/MississippiState.htm#1959) (2-7)W1413
10/3vs.Virginia (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Virginia.htm#1959) (0-10)W5510
10/10@Rice (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Rice.htm#1959) (1-7-2)T1313
10/17@*Vanderbilt (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Vanderbilt.htm#1959) (5-3-2)L613
10/24vs.*Louisiana State (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/LouisianaState.htm#1959) (9-2)L09
10/31@*Auburn (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Auburn.htm#1959) (7-3)L06
11/7vs.*Georgia (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Georgia.htm#1959) (10-1)L1021@ Jacksonville, FL
11/21vs.Florida State (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/FloridaState.htm#1959) (4-6)W188
11/28vs.Miami (Florida) (http://www.jhowell.net/cf/scores/Miami(Florida).htm#1959) (6-4)W2314@ Jacksonville, FL
 
5-4-1
 169107


Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on April 02, 2020, 05:45:36 PM
1959 Florida

most impressive win, over a 6-5 team
least impressive loss, a tie with a 1-7-2 team

had to be 25 teams with better resumes 
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 02, 2020, 06:05:14 PM
This is he final 1958 AP poll (prebowl):

1) Louisiana State 11-0
2) Iowa 8-1-1
3) Army 8-0-1
4) Auburn 9-0-1
5) Oklahoma 10-1
6) Air Force 9-0-2
7) Wisconsin 7-1-1
8) Ohio State 6-1-2
9) Syracuse 8-2
10) Texas Christian 8-2-1
11) Mississippi 9-2
12) Clemson 8-3
13) Purdue 6-1-2
14) Florida 6-4-1
15) South Carolina 7-3
16) California 7-4
17) Notre Dame 6-4
18) Southern Methodist 6-4
19) Oklahoma State 8-3
20) Rutgers 8-1


I guess Rutgers didn't play anyone.  You'd think South Carolina and OkSU might be ranked ahead of UF.  I don't know who is in "ORVs".
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 03, 2020, 09:39:11 AM
Top-25 by winning percentage for the decade:



Some conspicuous absences from the top-25:

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on April 03, 2020, 12:08:38 PM
40's and 50's were the Husker's two toughest decades

don't fret, the 60's are up next and the arrival of the BobFather!!!
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 03, 2020, 03:54:47 PM
Quote from: FearlessF on April 03, 2020, 12:08:38 PM
40's and 50's were the Husker's two toughest decades

don't fret, the 60's are up next and the arrival of the BobFather!!!
It is interesting to me that the 1950's were a rough decade for nearly all of the schools that we consider "helmet" schools today.  Looking at the list, the helmets (correct me if I miss any or include too many):

Mandel's list also includes Clemson (recent addition), the three Florida Schools, and LSU while it does not include Nebraska (recent deletion).  

By way of comparison, here are those 10 schools in the 1960's:

Here they are in the 1970's:

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 03, 2020, 04:14:51 PM
UGA is not in that group of course but it was a rough decade for them as well except for 1959.

It does look like the strong programs largely are started to become obvious with some exceptions.  Georgia Tech was a power back then, they would have been a helmet school.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on April 03, 2020, 08:21:34 PM
supports our assumption that that the helmets were formed in the 70s for the most part
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on April 04, 2020, 02:40:32 PM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on April 03, 2020, 09:39:11 AM
Top-25 by winning percentage for the decade:

  • .89524 Oklahoma 93-10-2
  • .79348 Miami, OH 72-18-2
  • .77830 Ole Miss 80-21-5
  • .76630 MSU 70-21-1
  • .75000 Princeton 67-22-1
  • .74020 ASU 74-25-3
  • .73874 GaTech 79-26-6
  • .73762 Wyoming 72-24-5
  • .72872 CentMI 68-25-1
  • .72596 SoMiss 75-28-1
  • .71649 UCLA 68-26-3
  • .71196 tOSU 63-24-5
  • .69159 Tenn 72-31-4
  • .68085 PSU 62-28-4
  • .67895 LaTech 62-28-5
  • .67822 Maryland 67-31-3
  • .67742 Cuse 62-29-2
  • .67222 Army 58-27-5
  • .66832 Cincy 64-30-7
  • .66667 NotreDame 64-31-4
  • .65842 Clemson 64-32-5
  • .65761 Wisconsin 57-28-7
  • .65000 Kent 57-30-3
  • .64356 Colorado 62-33-6
  • .64216 Dook 62-33-7


Some conspicuous absences from the top-25:
  • #32 Texas .625, 64-38-2
  • #36 USC .60784, 60-38-4
  • #40 Michigan .58791, 52-36-3
  • #67 Bama .50926, 50-48-10
  • #108 Nebraska .40500, 39-58-3
Has there ever been a decade with one team so dominant as was the case in the '50s?

I suspect that there have been some teams with better decades than Oklahoma in the '50s, but there were other teams having really good stretches at the same time.  Nobody else in the '50s is within 10 percentage points of Oklahoma.  Granted, the Big Seven wasn't the toughest conference in all the land.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 04, 2020, 04:23:21 PM
I think you'd have to go back to maybe 1900 to see something comparable.  Maybe.

https://cfbalmanac.com/michigan-1900-1909-football-schedules-and-scores/ (https://cfbalmanac.com/michigan-1900-1909-football-schedules-and-scores/)
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on April 04, 2020, 05:34:02 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on April 04, 2020, 04:23:21 PM
I think you'd have to go back to maybe 1900 to see something comparable.  Maybe.

https://cfbalmanac.com/michigan-1900-1909-football-schedules-and-scores/ (https://cfbalmanac.com/michigan-1900-1909-football-schedules-and-scores/)
Well, the data is there, but who wants to do all the arithmetic?
There used to be a website called College Football Data Warehouse and one of its features was ranking teams by decade and by 25-year periods.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 04, 2020, 05:55:56 PM
Yeah, I don't think it's worth crunching numbers, I just think you'd have to look at 1900 to see another team possibly that dominant, maybe, and then it doesn't matter that much.

I also don't think it can happen these days.  We seem to have had three dominant programs in the 2010 decade, which is remarkable enough.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 04, 2020, 06:07:00 PM
Quote from: CWSooner on April 04, 2020, 02:40:32 PM
Has there ever been a decade with one team so dominant as was the case in the '50s?

I suspect that there have been some teams with better decades than Oklahoma in the '50s, but there were other teams having really good stretches at the same time.  Nobody else in the '50s is within 10 percentage points of Oklahoma.  Granted, the Big Seven wasn't the toughest conference in all the land.
This stuff is interesting to me. 

I find it interesting how much Oklahoma bounces around. They were #1 by a mile in the '50's and #1 again in the '70's but in between they were decidedly mediocre in the '60's.

I also find it interesting that the '70's were REALLY good for pretty much all of the Helmet teams.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on April 04, 2020, 07:50:50 PM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on April 04, 2020, 06:07:00 PM
This stuff is interesting to me.

I find it interesting how much Oklahoma bounces around. They were #1 by a mile in the '50's and #1 again in the '70's but in between they were decidedly mediocre in the '60's.

I also find it interesting that the '70's were REALLY good for pretty much all of the Helmet teams.
It's a little clearer if you take it year by year.
Oklahoma was good out of the blocks post-WWII, and was a team that could have been named national champs (at 11-0) in 1949.
Starting with the 10-1 1948 team, it had its greatest stretch ever going through the '58 (10-1) season.  107-8-2 over that 11-year stretch.  But the Wilkinson magic faded (not just coincidentally as Bud's former player Darrell Royal really got it going in Austin) and Bud finished 7-3, 3-6-1, 5-5, 8-3, 8-2.  That went through the '63 season.  Bud's successor was long-time assistant poor old Gomer Jones, who went 9-11-1 over two years.  The rest of the '60s were "OK," but just that, with the exception of the overachieving '67 team that was 3 missed FGs against Texas in a 9-7 loss from being undefeated and possibly national champs.  Then seasons of 7-4 and 6-4 closed out the '60s.
Then, in 1970, in the bye week before the RRS, OU installed Texas' wishbone offense (only emphasizing more speed and less power) and ended up with a 7-4-1 season and momentum.  Then they ripped off a great decade, with Barry Switzer taking over from Chuck Fairbanks for the '73 season.  11-1, 11-1, 10-0-1, 11-0, 11-1, 9-2-1, 10-2, 11-1, 11-1, with 2 MNCs in there.  (Bama had a lower winning percentage, but won 3 MNCs, over the same period.)  The '80s were a down-up-down decade.  Subpar recruiting led to a 10-2, 7-4-1, 8-4, 8-4 start.  Then, '85 through '87, they went 33-3 with an MNC in '85 and losing to Miami in the '87 MNC game.  But then a decline at the end, 9-3, Switzer getting forced out, and closing out with 7-4 under Gary Gibbs in '89.  The '90s then made the '60s look like a roaring success story.  8-3, 9-3, 5-4-2, 9-3, 6-6, and Gibbs getting fired.  A 5-5-1 season under Howard Smellsofbourbon, and then the worst 3-year span in the program's history under John Blake, 3-8, 4-8, 5-6.  Bob Stoops' first year, at 7-5, closed out the decade.  2000 brought 13-0 and an NC, and another nice run--albeit with disappointing performances in NC games--from that point through the 2019 season.

So, up at the end of the '40s, down at the end of the '50s carrying into the mid-1960s, a one-year spike, then back to mediocrity for the rest of the decade, then a great decade in the '70s, a good decade in the '80s, a lousy decade in the '90s, a great start to the '00s, and a good run since then.
Re your last comment, does the fact that most of the Helmet teams did well in the '70s make it a great decade or a top-heavy one?
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 05, 2020, 05:47:40 AM
Maybe the 1970s was the decade where the current Helmet Teams were "cemented" into modernity?  Teams that did well in that decade became HTs???

As noted Ohio State and Oklahoma and Texas were nothing remarkable until 1950 or so.  The list of HT Programs evolves, slowly.  It would be interesting to contrive such a list by decade, starting say in 1910.  You might see a list including UM but also Yale and Vandy and Princeton back then, not sure.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 06, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
Quote from: CWSooner on April 04, 2020, 07:50:50 PM
It's a little clearer if you take it year by year.
Oklahoma was good out of the blocks post-WWII, and was a team that could have been named national champs (at 11-0) in 1949.
Starting with the 10-1 1948 team, it had its greatest stretch ever going through the '58 (10-1) season.  107-8-2 over that 11-year stretch.  But the Wilkinson magic faded (not just coincidentally as Bud's former player Darrell Royal really got it going in Austin) and Bud finished 7-3, 3-6-1, 5-5, 8-3, 8-2.  That went through the '63 season.  Bud's successor was long-time assistant poor old Gomer Jones, who went 9-11-1 over two years.  The rest of the '60s were "OK," but just that, with the exception of the overachieving '67 team that was 3 missed FGs against Texas in a 9-7 loss from being undefeated and possibly national champs.  Then seasons of 7-4 and 6-4 closed out the '60s.

Then, in 1970, in the bye week before the RRS, OU installed Texas' wishbone offense (only emphasizing more speed and less power) and ended up with a 7-4-1 season and momentum.  Then they ripped off a great decade, with Barry Switzer taking over from Chuck Fairbanks for the '73 season.  11-1, 11-1, 10-0-1, 11-0, 11-1, 9-2-1, 10-2, 11-1, 11-1, with 2 MNCs in there.  (Bama had a lower winning percentage, but won 3 MNCs, over the same period.)  The '80s were a down-up-down decade.  Subpar recruiting led to a 10-2, 7-4-1, 8-4, 8-4 start.  Then, '85 through '87, they went 33-3 with an MNC in '85 and losing to Miami in the '87 MNC game.  But then a decline at the end, 9-3, Switzer getting forced out, and closing out with 7-4 under Gary Gibbs in '89.  The '90s then made the '60s look like a roaring success story.  8-3, 9-3, 5-4-2, 9-3, 6-6, and Gibbs getting fired.  A 5-5-1 season under Howard Smellsofbourbon, and then the worst 3-year span in the program's history under John Blake, 3-8, 4-8, 5-6.  Bob Stoops' first year, at 7-5, closed out the decade.  2000 brought 13-0 and an NC, and another nice run--albeit with disappointing performances in NC games--from that point through the 2019 season.

So, up at the end of the '40s, down at the end of the '50s carrying into the mid-1960s, a one-year spike, then back to mediocrity for the rest of the decade, then a great decade in the '70s, a good decade in the '80s, a lousy decade in the '90s, a great start to the '00s, and a good run since then.
One of my plans for this off-season was to do a 10-year rolling winning percentage chart for at least all of the helmets (maybe Mandel's Kings and Barons) to look at this in more detail.  Just using decades can be highly misleading because if a team was REALLY good from say 1955-1965 and REALLY bad in the early 1950's and late 1960's then the 50's and 60's are going going to look mediocre when in fact that team wasn't mediocre for those 10 years they were REALLY good in the middle and bad outside of that.  
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 06, 2020, 01:09:37 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on April 05, 2020, 05:47:40 AM
Maybe the 1970s was the decade where the current Helmet Teams were "cemented" into modernity?  Teams that did well in that decade became HTs???

As noted Ohio State and Oklahoma and Texas were nothing remarkable until 1950 or so.  The list of HT Programs evolves, slowly.  It would be interesting to contrive such a list by decade, starting say in 1910.  You might see a list including UM but also Yale and Vandy and Princeton back then, not sure.
I don't know.  

Dude (has a new name on here, I can't remember it) has been pushing the idea for years that the Helmets were "fixed" in the 1970's and I've been highly resistant to that theory.  I have two major objections to the theory:


Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 06, 2020, 01:17:16 PM
My premise is that our current helmets all had a good decade in the 1970s and whatever status they had going in was confirmed and strengthened in some cases, and they are still viewed as helmets - Texas, OU, ND, Bama, OSU, UM, USC - those are my Blue Chips (for the moment).

To some degree, I think of this as pertaining to who would be exciting to schedule for my lesser team, and it's all of them.  No matter how bad USC might be, they still carry that panache (for now).  As a fan, I'd be excited to schedule Wisconsin and Penn State and teams of that ilk, but it wouldn't "fee" the same.

Some of this for me of course is because UGA didn't play anyone of note on the road for eons (1965 to about 2005 or so) outside bowls.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on April 06, 2020, 01:18:55 PM
I know the NCAA lost the court case regarding TV rights in 1984, but were the 70's when NCAA football really took off as a TV product?

Just a guess
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 06, 2020, 01:23:24 PM
I recall the 1980 season for some reason, and even then for UGA to be on TV was notable.  I was trying to listen to radio at night most games.  The UGA -UF game was not shown in Cincinnati because of Kent State playing Akron, I'm serious, but that game ended early and they did switch over at the end.

I think cable is what expanded CFB TV.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on April 06, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on April 06, 2020, 01:05:00 PM
One of my plans for this off-season was to do a 10-year rolling winning percentage chart for at least all of the helmets (maybe Mandel's Kings and Barons) to look at this in more detail.  Just using decades can be highly misleading because if a team was REALLY good from say 1955-1965 and REALLY bad in the early 1950's and late 1960's then the 50's and 60's are going going to look mediocre when in fact that team wasn't mediocre for those 10 years they were REALLY good in the middle and bad outside of that.
Seems like the old College Football Data Warehouse may have had that feature.  Maybe a rolling 25-year average too.

Alas, it is no more!
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 06, 2020, 04:06:40 PM
Quote from: CWSooner on April 06, 2020, 02:37:02 PM
Seems like the old College Football Data Warehouse may have had that feature.  Maybe a rolling 25-year average too.

Alas, it is no more!
I can get the data keyed in at least for the Helmets and maybe the semi-helmets.  Once I get it keyed in, I could switch from 10-year rolling winning percentage to 25-year rolling winning percentage pretty easily.  

The main shortcoming to me doing it is that it would be limited to ONLY those schools that I chose to include.  Ie, I'm not keying in every single college football program that ever existed.  I'm just not.  

My thought was to do it for every school that has a case to be a "helmet".  Ie, using Stewart Mandel's Kings, Barons, Knights, and Peasants I'd include every school that had been listed as a King on any of Mandel's lists:


Of the schools included on all three of Mandel's lists (2007 (https://www.si.com/college/2007/08/08/program-pecking-order-bcs-teams-hierarchy), 2012 (https://www.si.com/college/2012/07/11/kings-barons-knights-peasants-mailbag), 2017 (https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/college-football-program-pecking-order-3-0-dividing-all-66-bcs-teams-into-four-tier-hierarchy-052517)) I think the three most frequently questioned are the three Florida Schools.  Florida, Florida State, and Miami have been very good for quite some time now but there are still plenty of living fans who can remember when UF, FSU, and Miami were not nationally relevant.  Then there are the four that Mandel added or deleted:

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on April 06, 2020, 04:44:41 PM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on April 06, 2020, 04:06:40 PM
I can get the data keyed in at least for the Helmets and maybe the semi-helmets.  Once I get it keyed in, I could switch from 10-year rolling winning percentage to 25-year rolling winning percentage pretty easily. 

The main shortcoming to me doing it is that it would be limited to ONLY those schools that I chose to include.  Ie, I'm not keying in every single college football program that ever existed.  I'm just not. 

My thought was to do it for every school that has a case to be a "helmet".  Ie, using Stewart Mandel's Kings, Barons, Knights, and Peasants I'd include every school that had been listed as a King on any of Mandel's lists:
  • Alabama (all three lists)
  • Florida (3)
  • FSU (3)
  • Miami (3)
  • Michigan (3)
  • Notre Dame (3)
  • Ohio State (3)
  • Oklahoma (3)
  • Penn State (3)
  • Texas (3)
  • USC (3)
  • Tennessee (2, 2017 deletion)
  • Nebraska (2, 2017 deletion)
  • LSU (2, 2012 addition)
  • Clemson (1, 2017 addition)


Of the schools included on all three of Mandel's lists (2007 (https://www.si.com/college/2007/08/08/program-pecking-order-bcs-teams-hierarchy), 2012 (https://www.si.com/college/2012/07/11/kings-barons-knights-peasants-mailbag), 2017 (https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/college-football-program-pecking-order-3-0-dividing-all-66-bcs-teams-into-four-tier-hierarchy-052517)) I think the three most frequently questioned are the three Florida Schools.  Florida, Florida State, and Miami have been very good for quite some time now but there are still plenty of living fans who can remember when UF, FSU, and Miami were not nationally relevant.  Then there are the four that Mandel added or deleted:
  • Tennessee:  I think they are somewhat of a borderline helmet.  They have a lot of great history but this is a REALLY strong group and when you compare Tennessee to the other "Kings" they tend to fall near the bottom in most metrics. 
  • Nebraska:  When Mandel took Nebraska off of his list of Helmets in 2017 he said this:  "I’m 41 years old. In my teens, 20s and early-to-mid 30s, you could never have convinced me Nebraska would one day be viewed as anything less than college football royalty. But today’s recruits were not even born the last time the Huskers won even a conference championship, in 1999, much less Tom Osborne’s three national titles in four years from 1994-97."  I'm almost exactly his age and I feel much the same.  Nebraska's run from 1962-2003 under Devaney, Osborne, and Solich was incredible.  For those ~4 decades they were among the top two or three on nearly any metric you could choose to rate programs.  The problem is that they also have a lot of decidedly mediocre performance outside of those ~4 decades and it has been a REALLY long time since Nebraska has looked like a true helmet. 
  • LSU:  Their NC this year makes Mandel look pretty smart for including them back in 2017 but I still have my doubts.  LSU isn't up with the rest of this group on most long-term comparisons.  If they keep performing at their current level then they'll be an obvious helmet eventually but if they sink back to mediocrity . . .
  • Clemson:  I strongly disagree with this decision.  Clemson has been phenomenal over the past decade or so but their overall history is simply nowhere close to most of the rest of the helmets.  Maybe this is their new normal and they are a helmet but it is also possible that many years from now Clemson fans will still be looking back wishing they could have this back.  We'll see.
I think your reasoning on what you are doing is solid, Medina.
I would interject that Nebraska had a pretty good run in the first 22 years of the last century in addition to '62 through '03.
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 06, 2020, 06:45:46 PM
I think I dropped Nebraska into the near helmet group myself inadvertently.  I think USC should be on the fence also, teetering.

The current "Three Kings" are Bama, Clemson, and Ohio State, I think.  Oklahoma could be fourth.  Those three seem to be 1, 2, 3 in some order each preseason, and fairly often post season.

I suspect for most of us if we woke up and learned we signed for an H&A series with any of them, we'd think "Whoa.".

If you signed with USC, you might think "Cool, we'll probably be able to beat them twice and get some luster.".
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: FearlessF on April 06, 2020, 06:57:11 PM
friggin youngsters - 41 years old
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on April 06, 2020, 09:22:29 PM
Quote from: Cincydawg on April 06, 2020, 06:45:46 PM
I think I dropped Nebraska into the near helmet group myself inadvertently.  I think USC should be on the fence also, teetering.

The current "Three Kings" are Bama, Clemson, and Ohio State, I think.  Oklahoma could be fourth.  Those three seem to be 1, 2, 3 in some order each preseason, and fairly often post season.

I suspect for most of us if we woke up and learned we signed for an H&A series with any of them, we'd think "Whoa.".

If you signed with USC, you might think "Cool, we'll probably be able to beat them twice and get some luster.".
That's why I'm pissed that we haven't scheduled a series with the Trojans.  First, we owe them some payback and, second, if we're going to play a series with some lousy-ass southern California team, why don't we make it USC instead of UCLA?
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 07, 2020, 07:09:41 AM
Yeah, I think the Dawgs have a series with Cal or UCLA, I can't even remember and don't care.  Meh.  If we had one with USC I'd remember.

Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 07, 2020, 08:21:09 AM
Quote from: Cincydawg on April 07, 2020, 07:09:41 AM
Yeah, I think the Dawgs have a series with Cal or UCLA, I can't even remember and don't care.  Meh.  If we had one with USC I'd remember.
That right there is why they are a helmet.  

If your team beat a 5-7 USC you'd be more excited than if they beat an 8-4 Cal/UCLA.  
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on April 07, 2020, 08:21:30 AM
Quote from: FearlessF on April 06, 2020, 06:57:11 PM
friggin youngsters - 41 years old
Well, that was a few years ago.  
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: CWSooner on April 07, 2020, 03:15:32 PM
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on April 07, 2020, 08:21:09 AM
That right there is why they are a helmet. 

If your team beat a 5-7 USC you'd be more excited than if they beat an 8-4 Cal/UCLA.
Egg-zackly!
Title: Re: Teams from the 1950s
Post by: Cincydawg on April 08, 2020, 10:02:02 AM
I mentioned this before as one way to "rank order" helmets, just consider which program you'd be excited to see scheduled in the future.

1.  Well, OK, they are a P5 team, but pretty mediocre program, meh (South Carolina, Vandy, Oregon State, Purdue, Texas ...)
2.  Hey, they are a pretty decent P5 team usually, not bad at all.  (Iowa, Michigan State, Washington, Oregon, ...)
3.  Cool, an upper level P5 team that finishes top ten fairly often (UGA, Florida, LSU, Wisconsin, Penn State, etc.)
4.  Outstanding, a True Helmet team.