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Topic: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)

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847badgerfan

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #224 on: October 31, 2023, 03:33:15 PM »
CFP ended that idea.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #225 on: October 31, 2023, 10:22:53 PM »
Be nice to keep things like they were around 2000 or so,smaller programs still had a punchers chance
Not really.  They didn't have 4 impossible hurdles to leap in a 12-team playoff or the 2 they have now, but they had no way to earn their way in back then.
Even if they scheduled tough OOC, their overall schedules were still comically weak.  And so they were dismissed, a la Utah in 06 (being pitted against a crap Pitt conf champ) or the year Boise and MWC TCU were paired (in an ultimate slap in the face).

98 Tulane had no chance.  Their best win was 5-6 Rutgers from the Big East.  And their conference bowl tie-in was the Liberty.  That's not a glass ceiling, that's an underground bunker.
Louisville had some good teams in Conf USA, but they didn't warrant any real chance.  Weak-ass resumes, all.

Even the quintessential mid-major to actually summit the mountain, BYU, simply lucked into it.  Didn't really win their way in, facing a .500 UM.  
If Warshington lost to USC earlier in the year or won the PAC, they'd have been NC.
If OU had won the Orange vs UW, they'd have been NC.
If Florida wasn't on probation and beaten someone decent in the Sugar, they'd have been NC.
If Nebraska had beaten OU, they'd have won the NC.
.
By the late 90s, I don't think BYU wins the NC in the same circumstance.  Warshington does.  This "shrug and blindly reward the zero in the loss column" crap was thankfully gone, thanks to some brain evolution.  





« Last Edit: October 31, 2023, 10:30:53 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
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Cincydawg

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #226 on: November 01, 2023, 06:39:20 AM »
In order to get to "moderately competent" I would argue you must out-spend those programs by a significant level to overcome the recruiting disadvantages, NIL, transfer portal, etc.
I THINK a generational coach can turn it around, at least for a couple years, see Spurrier at South Carolina or Meyer just about anywhere.  Indiana probably needs a coach near that level AND the spending to be a consistent 8-9-10 game winner.  If you can hold that, you start to be relevant to recruits I think.  Of course, said coach will likely be tempted by others.

MrNubbz

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #227 on: November 01, 2023, 07:06:19 AM »

Not really.  They didn't have 4 impossible hurdles to leap in a 12-team playoff or the 2 they have now,
but they had no way to earn their way in back then.
Even if they scheduled tough OOC, their overall schedules were still comically weak.  And so they were dismissed, a la Utah in 06 (being pitted against a crap Pitt conf champ) or the year Boise and MWC TCU were paired (in an ultimate slap in the face).

98 Tulane had no chance.  Their best win was 5-6 Rutgers from the Big East.  And their conference bowl tie-in was the Liberty.  That's not a glass ceiling, that's an underground bunker.
Louisville had some good teams in Conf USA, but they didn't warrant any real chance.  Weak-ass resumes, all.

Even the quintessential mid-major to actually summit the mountain, BYU, simply lucked into it.  Didn't really win their way in, facing a .500 UM. 
If Warshington lost to USC earlier in the year or won the PAC, they'd have been NC.
If OU had won the Orange vs UW, they'd have been NC.
If Florida wasn't on probation and beaten someone decent in the Sugar, they'd have been NC.
If Nebraska had beaten OU, they'd have won the NC.
.
By the late 90s, I don't think BYU wins the NC in the same circumstance.  Warshington does.  This "shrug and blindly reward the zero in the loss column" crap was thankfully gone, thanks to some brain evolution.
That's the exactly it but now you bitch about air force getting in.Just WTF is your point?
Purdue,Rutgers,Indiana had a much better chance than today's situation with NIL $$$ and delevoped talent portaling.Because a better chance with established Programs and all of their resources towards the sport whether work out and conditioning facilities or nutritional programs and even better coaching(for the most part). All of that get's them to the LEAGUE quicker if that the destination and for many it is.There is a much bigger disparity in those today than just 20-25 yrs ago
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #228 on: November 01, 2023, 10:02:45 AM »

Even the quintessential mid-major to actually summit the mountain, BYU, simply lucked into it.  Didn't really win their way in, facing a .500 UM. 
I believe by "smaller programs" he was referring to low power conference teams, as we were talking about Indiana specifically. 

It would be unlikely for an Indiana team on a good year to actually have NC aspirations, because it's unlikely they could ever actually go undefeated in the Big Ten. And if they did, any potential year where there was another undefeated team with a shinier helmet, the poll-based NC would select someone above them. 

But in the crazy scenario where they went undefeated OOC and in the Big Ten, beat the PAC champ in the Rose Bowl, and there were no other undefeated teams? Indiana is your national champion. 

That's the exactly it but now you bitch about air force getting in.Just WTF is your point?
Purdue,Rutgers,Indiana had a much better chance than today's situation with NIL $$$ and delevoped talent portaling.Because a better chance with established Programs and all of their resources towards the sport whether work out and conditioning facilities or nutritional programs and even better coaching(for the most part). All of that get's them to the LEAGUE quicker if that the destination and for many it is.There is a much bigger disparity in those today than just 20-25 yrs ago
Only disagreement, Nubbz, is that I don't think the disparity in *facilities* means squat for getting to the league. I think pretty much all teams have competent S&C programs and nutritional programs these days. The fancy facilities are merely meant to LURE recruits, not to develop them any better. 

The reason the top programs put more players in the league is because they recruit more top players with the athleticism, skill, and talent to get to the league. A 5* recruit at Purdue or Indiana is IMHO as likely to get drafted to the NFL as a 5* at Michigan or OSU. It's just that 5* players don't go to Purdue or Indiana, so we rarely see it. 

MrNubbz

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #229 on: November 01, 2023, 10:15:08 AM »
If a program has up to date equipment that is properly maintained with good instruction is the point.Look at Iowa sticking with Brian - that may have put them in a hard hole to climb out of  and that is rightfully a black eye for pops.Kirk kinda comes away richer than anyone with his resume deserves to be.Think he may reward his employer by taking the high road and doing the right thing but N-O-O-O.Kinda mimmicks the Whitehouse
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #230 on: November 01, 2023, 10:23:51 AM »
If a program has up to date equipment that is properly maintained with good instruction is the point.
Yeah, but I'd argue any power conference team is doing that. You don't need Alabama-level facilities to have a competent S&C program. They're spending money on those facilities to wow a bunch of teenagers and convince them to walk through the front door, but I don't think it makes much difference to what walks out the back door after 4 years in the program. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #231 on: November 01, 2023, 10:34:01 AM »
My GUESS is a decent S&C guy is pretty easy to find, and a brilliant one is likely not any better realistically.  Maybe the latter is more motivational.

The WOW stuff is for recruits.

I'd guess some programs struggle to spend money productively, the end up throwing money at "stuff" that looks nice.

847badgerfan

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #232 on: November 01, 2023, 10:38:04 AM »
My GUESS is a decent S&C guy is pretty easy to find, and a brilliant one is likely not any better realistically.  Maybe the latter is more motivational.

The WOW stuff is for recruits.

I'd guess some programs struggle to spend money productively, the end up throwing money at "stuff" that looks nice.
Not really.


Michigan's S&C guy is about as elite as they come. They do not grow on trees.


Ben Herbert - Associate Head Coach/Director of Strength and Conditioning - Staff Directory - University of Michigan Athletics (mgoblue.com)
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Cincydawg

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #233 on: November 01, 2023, 10:48:50 AM »
Maybe so, I don't know how one could quantify it.  I know personal trainers around here are "dime a dozen" and struggling for business (not that they all are competent of course).  

Technical coaches like OL coaches I'd GUESS can be elite, or not, and hard to find.

I watched a video yesterday about the fastball and it talked about some dude who never made the majors and may have thrown hardest of anyone (Steve Dalkowski).  I was thinking about pitching coaches.  It's about as technical as a golf swing I'd opine.

Fastball (2016) - IMDb

‘Dalko’ Tells the Story of Orioles Fastballer Steve Dalkowski (baltimoremagazine.com)


FearlessF

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #234 on: November 01, 2023, 10:53:31 AM »
I think "think" I can tell a positive difference in the new S&C guy at Rhule brought in compared to Frost
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MikeDeTiger

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #235 on: November 01, 2023, 10:55:24 AM »
There's a lot to stay on top of as far as incorporating the latest workout routines and dietary findings, because science, yo.  LSU's Tommy Moffit was long considered to be one of the best in the biz.  Frequently turned down attempts to hire him away to other programs.  Alabama's red-headed guy, can't remember his name, learned his chops under Moffit at LSU and is now often regarded as the best.  Probably already was for a while, imo, with Moffit getting older and dealing with bouts of cancer in his later years.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #236 on: November 01, 2023, 10:58:31 AM »
I don't mean to suggest S&C is simple or easy, only that the best routines likely are public knowledge, or so I would think.  And can the difference between excellent and elite in an S&C coach translate into an extra win on the field?  I'm clearly guessing here.  It could be tricks of the trade are not well known, and perhaps motivational techniques are also crucial.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Luke Fickell Shouts To His Ancestors (SOC 10/28/23)
« Reply #237 on: November 01, 2023, 11:08:46 AM »
Because the "best" routines are so person-specific, I don't know that there's a stock program that can be implemented for a team, or even for positions groups.  As far as wins on the field, well, maybe, indirectly at least.  An elite S&C routine can help avoid injuries and lead to faster recovery times if injured.  If a key player can make it back that one game earlier than he otherwise would've, that could be significant.  

 

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