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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes
(Read 3449072 times)

bayareabadger · « **Reply #45906 on:** June 25, 2025, 02:55:02 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on June 25, 2025, 02:36:13 PM

Instead of celebrating the country's success, they chose to trample on it (and lied in doing so) because it was done on Trump's orders.

So, yes.

I mean, the board was an is mad about the engagement in the first place, so boiling it down to “the country’s success” feels convenient.

As for the larger part, that seems like a do as I say, not as I do. When a party isn’t in power, the other side bitches and moans about all sorts of things and doesn’t celebrate. For the Biden years, there was much trampling and little celebrating. Were our own board denizens putting party over country? Was the oft cited Fox News Network doing that very thing? I don’t think we would say that.

It’s at worst political bitching. It might also be reporting that the president is lying to the people of the US. Seems mostly fine, assuming the report isn’t fake or something.

Mdot21 · « **Reply #45907 on:** June 25, 2025, 02:56:20 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on June 25, 2025, 02:36:13 PM

Instead of celebrating the country's success, they chose to trample on it (and lied in doing so) because it was done on Trump's orders.

So, yes.

The job of the press is to push back hard and with force at all times, be skeptical about everything, question everyone, and hold the feet to the fire of the powerful. It is not be stenographers of the state. The very real problem however in mainstream press is that there is crazy bias and they only seem to do this to one side and not the other. That is a major problem.

There is nothing wrong with the press pushing back here, because quite frankly if you do any research into the bunker busters they have never been successfully used or tested at that depth, and all reporting/leaks of internal Pentagon briefs way before Trump ever went on this bombing run was that the only way they could be 1000% for certain of total destruction of the facility was if they did bombing runs with conventional bombs to soften the target up and then finish it off with a tactical nuclear weapon.

Trump claims everything was destroyed completely. That's terrific if true. And hopefully that wraps it all up and that is that. But he has not shown any evidence of this claim. And what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #45908 on:** June 25, 2025, 02:56:27 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on June 25, 2025, 02:51:31 PM

Too many hate this country and want to change it. I don't go on FB much because I hate to see that stuff.

Same. Never been on FB. I’m just referring to the stuff you see every day on all the different news channels.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #45909 on:** June 25, 2025, 02:58:41 PM »

Quote from: Mdot21 on June 25, 2025, 02:56:20 PM

The job of the press is to push back hard and with force at all times, be skeptical about everything, question everyone, and hold the feet to the fire of the powerful. It is not be stenographers of the state. The very real problem however in mainstream press is that there is crazy bias and they only seem to do this to one side and not the other. That is a major problem.

There is nothing wrong with the press pushing back here, because quite frankly if you do any research into the bunker busters they have never been successfully used or tested at that depth, and all reporting/leaks of internal Pentagon briefs way before Trump ever went on this bombing run was that the only way they could be 1000% for certain of total destruction of the facility was if they did bombing runs with conventional bombs to soften the target up and then finish it off with a tactical nuclear weapon.

Trump claims everything was destroyed completely. That's terrific if true. And hopefully that wraps it all up and that is that. But he has not shown any evidence of this claim. And what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.

What evidence has been shown to the contrary. But yet CNN made it front page top of the page news, as if it were the truth. Based on some low-level anonymous jackass. That’s not journalism. That’s not pushing back. That’s trying to control the narrative.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #45910 on:** June 25, 2025, 03:01:45 PM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on June 25, 2025, 02:55:02 PM

I mean, the board was an is mad about the engagement in the first place, so boiling it down to “the country’s success” feels convenient.

As for the larger part, that seems like a do as I say, not as I do. When a party isn’t in power, the other side bitches and moans about all sorts of things and doesn’t celebrate. For the Biden years, there was much trampling and little celebrating. Were our own board denizens putting party over country? Was the oft cited Fox News Network doing that very thing? I don’t think we would say that.

It’s at worst political bitching. It might also be reporting that the president is lying to the people of the US. Seems mostly fine, assuming the report isn’t fake or something.

It still is mad about it.

Just because I don't approve of it doesn't mean it's not a success.

Both can be true.

It's like I don't approve of the POTUS allowing untold numbers of illegals to come into the country, but he was successful at it.

Mdot21 · « **Reply #45911 on:** June 25, 2025, 03:03:41 PM »

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on June 25, 2025, 02:21:20 PM

Being in a hurry to falsely report mission ineffectiveness, based on an Anonymous source, was clearly intended to damage the narrative of the current administration’s success - and which made the mission worthwhile. I know you can see that, and if you can’t admit it then that’s a disappointment.

Wasn’t it the same source who said Hunter’s laptop was Russian disinformation?

you are conflating two very dissimilar things.

And if we had a mainstream press that was worth a fucking shit at all in this country it would've immediately pushed back, laughed in the face of and ripped the "51 former intelligence officers" Russian disinformation hoax to shreds, not peddle that outright bald faced lie evidence based free conspiracy theory garbage. But they were already all too busy peddling another outright bald faced lie evidence based free conspiracy theory garbage that Donald Trump was a Russian asset. Lol.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. I'm a pretty simple guy. Want me to believe something, show me the evidence.

bayareabadger · « **Reply #45912 on:** June 25, 2025, 03:23:21 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on June 25, 2025, 03:01:45 PM

It still is mad about it.

Just because I don't approve of it doesn't mean it's not a success.

Both can be true.

It's like I don't approve of the POTUS allowing untold numbers of illegals to come into the country, but he was successful at it.

This is doing very little to dispel the sense that “party over country” is being said in a manner worth taking seriously.

Mdot21 · « **Reply #45913 on:** June 25, 2025, 03:24:09 PM »

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on June 25, 2025, 02:58:41 PM

What evidence has been shown to the contrary. But yet CNN made it front page top of the page news, as if it were the truth. Based on some low-level anonymous jackass. That’s not journalism. That’s not pushing back. That’s trying to control the narrative.

I don't blame them making it a front page story if they have an actual scoop/source- because that's a pretty big f'ing deal and front page worthy. And if you actually read the piece it was a report based off multiple sources (7) who were briefed on an early US intelligence battle assessment on the damage done by the DIA.

I dislike CNN as much as the next guy- but are you seriously saying they should not be reporting on this if they have 7 sources and that it's not a big enough of a deal to be on the front page?

And Trump and the DIA themselves admit as much.

“The intelligence was very inconclusive,” Trump said at the sidelines of the NATO summit in the Hague. “The intelligence says we don’t know. It could have been very severe.”

On Wednesday morning, a senior DIA official said in a statement that “We have still not been able to review the actual physical sites themselves, which will give us the best indication."

Yeah, good luck getting on the ground to asses the damage. You do realize this Fordow facility was buried 300+ feet underground below a granite mountain in a 40,000 psi reinforced concrete bunker? Read up on these bunker busters. Very unlikely they could do that job. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a65172594/ultra-strong-concrete-stops-bunker-busting-bombs/

If they had concrete evidence that it was completely destroyed they'd share it. They don't, which is why they are not. It's pretty simple.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #45914 on:** June 25, 2025, 04:21:24 PM »

Quote from: Mdot21 on June 25, 2025, 03:24:09 PM

I don't blame them making it a front page story if they have an actual scoop/source- because that's a pretty big f'ing deal and front page worthy. And if you actually read the piece it was a report based off multiple sources (7) who were briefed on an early US intelligence battle assessment on the damage done by the DIA.

I dislike CNN as much as the next guy- but are you seriously saying they should not be reporting on this if they have 7 sources and that it's not a big enough of a deal to be on the front page?

And Trump and the DIA themselves admit as much.

“The intelligence was very inconclusive,” Trump said at the sidelines of the NATO summit in the Hague. “The intelligence says we don’t know. It could have been very severe.”

On Wednesday morning, a senior DIA official said in a statement that “We have still not been able to review the actual physical sites themselves, which will give us the best indication."

Yeah, good luck getting on the ground to asses the damage. You do realize this Fordow facility was buried 300+ feet underground below a granite mountain in a 40,000 psi reinforced concrete bunker? Read up on these bunker busters. Very unlikely they could do that job. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a65172594/ultra-strong-concrete-stops-bunker-busting-bombs/

If they had concrete evidence that it was completely destroyed they'd share it. They don't, which is why they are not. It's pretty simple.

You just proved my point. They ( CNN) published that BS with no conclusive evidence.
And the more we learn each day- it appears this set them back a few years.

utee94 · « **Reply #45915 on:** June 25, 2025, 04:25:35 PM »

There's a big difference between running with a story that is challenging, versus prematurely running with a story that ends up being demonstrably false or 100% unverifiable, just because you desperately want to believe it. Don't be Dan Rather.

Mdot21 · « **Reply #45916 on:** June 25, 2025, 04:41:04 PM »

Quote from: Honestbuckeye on June 25, 2025, 04:21:24 PM

You just proved my point. They ( CNN) published that BS with no conclusive evidence.
And the more we learn each day- it appears this set them back a few years.

I don't believe I did.

The burden of proof is on the party claiming it has been destroyed- the US government. CNN's reporting is that hey- it might not be.

Time for the government to put up the proof of said destruction or maybe stop making that claim....

utee94 · « **Reply #45917 on:** June 25, 2025, 04:46:57 PM »

It's not just a problem with partisan reporting, it's a problem with reporting in general. The internet age has increased the pace of everything so much, that there's a massive rush to be first, and very little focus on being correct. And since there really appears to be no penalty for the media sources that are repeatedly incorrect, why on earth would they even bother?

utee94 · « **Reply #45918 on:** June 25, 2025, 04:50:25 PM »

Over time there will be plenty of evidence and intelligence to be gathered, to make a decent determination on how much damage was done. Initially we should see imagery of a lot of digging. If there's only minor digging and then business as usual resumes quickly, well there's your answer. If there's comprehensive digging, that will be more telling. If there's large amounts of new concrete and rebar, there's more of your answer. If there's a ton of activity bringing in new equipment and pulling out old damaged stuff, there's still more evidence.

But instead, everyone has to rush to make definitive statements regarding the relative success of the mission, without actually knowing shit about it.

Some folks might be okay with that, but it only serves to undermine even further their credibility, when I see them doing it.

Honestbuckeye · « **Reply #45919 on:** June 25, 2025, 05:11:45 PM »

You are on a roll.

The other thing to think about is, how do you define success?

Because we were able to fly B2 bombers for 37 consecutive hours, refill them in the air three times, go in undetected, and drop bombs with pinpoint accuracy, regardless of the effectiveness of it,- there’s no disputing that that is some form of success

The Iranians will be afraid to sit with her back to the door for years to come.

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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

bayareabadger

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

Mdot21

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

Honestbuckeye

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

Honestbuckeye

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

847badgerfan

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

Mdot21

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

bayareabadger

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

Mdot21

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

Honestbuckeye

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

utee94

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

Mdot21

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

utee94

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

utee94

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

Honestbuckeye

Re: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes