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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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jgvol

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43792 on: April 23, 2025, 11:38:18 AM »
But I think that is kinda the point. 

Bush obviously had to know that raising taxes after his "Read my lips, no new taxes" pledge would be politically damaging but the budget was hopelessly out of balance so he went back on the pledge KNOWING that it would damage him politically. 

Whatever you think of Bush I, you have to assume that he did this because he thought it was what was best for the Country because why else would he do it?  He obviously knew that it would hurt him politically. 

The point made by @Gigem was that Bush I took the deficit problem seriously whereas every President since would probably have simply raised the debt ceiling instead. 

I don't view the error as raising taxes.  It was the brazen declaration that he absolutely would not do so, that did him in.

Just hush.  No one likes a liar.  And FTR....I was for HW Bush.  But I was also still in HS.  This is all revisionist history for me.

That being said, I don't remember raising debt ceilings as being a thing back then.  Was it?

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43793 on: April 23, 2025, 11:42:35 AM »
That being said, I don't remember raising debt ceilings as being a thing back then.  Was it?
It was not used as a hammer as it is today, it usually passed by voice vote and life went on.  People were concerned about the deficit.   In the Clinton era, the budget could claim to have gone positive.  It would have earlier except for the massive S&L bailout.  That was the "peace dividend".

The debt now is so massive I don't think it can be fixed.  At best maybe the debt:GDP ratio might shrink a bit, maybe.  If we get a recession, it'll get bad quickly.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43794 on: April 23, 2025, 11:49:54 AM »
I don't view the error as raising taxes.  It was the brazen declaration that he absolutely would not do so, that did him in.

Just hush.  No one likes a liar.  And FTR....I was for HW Bush.  But I was also still in HS.  This is all revisionist history for me.
I think you might be right.  He did win an electoral landslide (426-111) but it was only a 53-46 win so if the "No New Taxes" pledge got him a few percentage points then it was decisive.  
That being said, I don't remember raising debt ceilings as being a thing back then.  Was it?
It has always been a thing legally but I don't remember when it became a giant political football.  

As a political thing I find it frankly ridiculous.  Every time Congress is controlled by the opposition party they make a big deal out of it.  It is silly because:
  • If the President was from their own party they'd just increase it without comment or theatre, and
  • All appropriation measures HAVE to be passed by Congress so if they REALLY wanted to curb the debt they would cut appropriations but they don't.  


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43795 on: April 23, 2025, 12:30:30 PM »
On this Presidential age thing, interestingly (to me anyway) the number of living Presidents is likely to decline significantly.  Some history:

President Herbert Hoover's predecessors Coolidge, Harding, and Wilson all died shortly after their terms.  Consequently, when Herbert Hoover left office on March 4, 1933 he was the only living past President and he remained so for nearly 20 years until Truman left office on January 20, 1953 (the 20th Amendment changing the Presidential Term to begin on 1/20 instead of 3/4 took effect during FDR's tenure).  


So there are currently five living presidents.  Their ages are:

  • Biden is 82 and turns 83 on November 20, 2025
  • Trump is 78 and turns 79 on June 14, 2025
  • Bush II is 78 and turns 79 on July 6, 2025
  • Clinton is 78 and turns 79 on August 19, 2025
  • Obama is 63 and turns 64 on August 4, 2025


So we had two Presidential deaths within a month in late '72 / early '73 and three in less than four years from March 28, 1969 - January 22, 1973 then none for more than 20 years and only one in more than 30 years.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43796 on: April 23, 2025, 12:43:23 PM »
In looking up Bush I's MoV in the 1988 election I noticed this map and it struck me how much the landscape has changed in the last ~40 years:  

Bush won the 1988 election by ~7.5%.  The idea of a Republican winning by 7.5% and NOT carrying WV today is comical.  

Before I go to the geographic shifts, the idea of a Republican winning by 7.5% is almost impossible to imagine today because we are so polarized that I think anyone (no matter how bad) with a "D" after their name would stay within a few points.  

Using Cook PVI and just assuming that since this is a 7.5% R win, the R wins all R states and all D states with a PVI of 7 or less, the changes would be:

  • Vermont to the D
  • Maryland to the D
  • California to the D
  • Oregon to the R
  • Minnesota to the R
  • Wisconsin to the R
  • Iowa to the R
  • West Virginia to the R


MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43797 on: April 23, 2025, 12:46:21 PM »
The idea of a Republican winning by 7.5% and NOT carrying WV today is comical. 

The idea of a Republican winning CA today is comical.  

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43798 on: April 23, 2025, 01:01:59 PM »
In looking up Bush I's MoV in the 1988 election I noticed this map and it struck me how much the landscape has changed in the last ~40 years: 
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43799 on: April 23, 2025, 02:28:38 PM »
I think I've said here before that one vote I would cast differently today is my 1992 (my first) presidential vote. I voted for Clinton, who, I think, was a decent president. But my current standards, given the options then, I wouldn't vote for him. I don't think he was trustworthy enough to be handed the keys. GHWB was, by most relevant standards, a good president, and he was definitely more trustworthy than Clinton, and he was a relative moderate.
I think it's fair to think that Perot took more votes from Bush than from Clinton. The recession really hurt Bush. Ironically, at least in California, my memory is that the "peace dividend" played a big role in the recession. California lost--I think--13 military posts/bases as a result of closure, thanks in large part to winning the Cold War. It was brutal--in the short term--for California's economy. If you go back and watch Presidio--a Sean Connery movie from the late 80s, I think--you'll see a San Francisco that had a huge military presence. The base closures in 1991 wiped that out (and not just in the Bay Area). It was hard on the area's economy; one of the few times that housing values have significantly dipped here.
Without the recession, not many people would have cared about "no new taxes." But combine that with the push for NAFTA, and Bush's huge victories over both the Soviet Union and Iraq were swept away. That's actually a pretty remarkable result--and grist for Clinton's "it's the economy, stupid" mill.

Once Clinton was President, even given my current political views, I likely would still have voted for him over Dole. To become the nominee for the Republicans, Dole had to go too far to the right, IMO. In my Democratic and aging memory, that was the era that Buchanan was really pushing the Rs to the right on social issues. Two years later, after the Lewinsky scandal was in full view, would I still have voted for Clinton over Dole? That's a close call. Realistically, I probably would still have voted for Clinton, but I'll say that I would at least have had to think hard about it.
The 2000 election will probably not get a lot of attention from historians because of what's happened since then, but my recollection of it was: things are going pretty well, so do we go with the guy who's pretty charming, doesn't seem that far to the right, and won't screw things up, or the guy who is kind of an annoying nerd, feels a little lefty on the environment, and won't screw things up? So we had a historically close election, a lot of drama, but not a lot of real angst at the time over the result. Can you imagine if we had the same scenario today as between Biden and Trump? It literally scares me to think about the consequences. Hopefully I'm just being melodramatic.
I recall looking back at the details of the GWB presidency when Trump was in his first term because of the liberal line of thought, "I'd even go back to Bush..." Nope. the GWB presidency was an epic failure in my mind. It was probably the combination of threatening Social Security and Katrina hitting at the same time in 2005 that fundamentally changed the national view of GWB, but there was an awful lot wrong with that presidency. Was Trump v.1 worse? I'm not at all sure. I thought Trump 1 was not good, but also not that effective at doing the things that he said he wanted to do. While I was very glad to be rid of him (I thought), it wasn't until after the 2020 election that he really scared me.
Back to 2000. I literally did vote for McCain in the California primary. My recollection, flawed as it may be, is that by the time California voted, the Republican primary was basically already decided, which I was disappointed in. In 2000, I thought McCain was a really good option. He was certainly always more conservative than me, and he had his own flaws, to be sure, but he struck me as honest, honorable, and more concerned about the country, than any particular election. But I think his loss in 2000 changed his approach to presidential politics. By 2008, he was willing to sell out his independence to capture primary votes. I have no regrets about voting for Obama. Once he was out of the presidential politics game, I think McCain went back to who he really wanted to be as a politician. Again, I disagreed with him about a lot of things, but when he wasn't trying to be the president, I thought he was a good voice in the room. 

Now we are here in 2025. The landscape has changed a ton, and the parties have, too. People on the right think that the left has gone crazy. For my part, I think that the "mainstream" Rs have completely different policies, except on taxes and abortion, than they had even 12 years ago. And the electorate feels like it has dug in more for each side than it used to.
Things will continue to change. It will be a wild ride--as it often is.

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43800 on: April 23, 2025, 02:49:11 PM »
I think I've said here before that one vote I would cast differently today is my 1992 (my first) presidential vote. I voted for Clinton, who, I think, was a decent president. But my current standards, given the options then, I wouldn't vote for him. I don't think he was trustworthy enough to be handed the keys. GHWB was, by most relevant standards, a good president, and he was definitely more trustworthy than Clinton, and he was a relative moderate.
I think it's fair to think that Perot took more votes from Bush than from Clinton. The recession really hurt Bush. Ironically, at least in California, my memory is that the "peace dividend" played a big role in the recession. California lost--I think--13 military posts/bases as a result of closure, thanks in large part to winning the Cold War. It was brutal--in the short term--for California's economy. If you go back and watch Presidio--a Sean Connery movie from the late 80s, I think--you'll see a San Francisco that had a huge military presence. The base closures in 1991 wiped that out (and not just in the Bay Area). It was hard on the area's economy; one of the few times that housing values have significantly dipped here.
Without the recession, not many people would have cared about "no new taxes." But combine that with the push for NAFTA, and Bush's huge victories over both the Soviet Union and Iraq were swept away. That's actually a pretty remarkable result--and grist for Clinton's "it's the economy, stupid" mill.

Once Clinton was President, even given my current political views, I likely would still have voted for him over Dole. To become the nominee for the Republicans, Dole had to go too far to the right, IMO. In my Democratic and aging memory, that was the era that Buchanan was really pushing the Rs to the right on social issues. Two years later, after the Lewinsky scandal was in full view, would I still have voted for Clinton over Dole? That's a close call. Realistically, I probably would still have voted for Clinton, but I'll say that I would at least have had to think hard about it.
The 2000 election will probably not get a lot of attention from historians because of what's happened since then, but my recollection of it was: things are going pretty well, so do we go with the guy who's pretty charming, doesn't seem that far to the right, and won't screw things up, or the guy who is kind of an annoying nerd, feels a little lefty on the environment, and won't screw things up? So we had a historically close election, a lot of drama, but not a lot of real angst at the time over the result. Can you imagine if we had the same scenario today as between Biden and Trump? It literally scares me to think about the consequences. Hopefully I'm just being melodramatic.
I recall looking back at the details of the GWB presidency when Trump was in his first term because of the liberal line of thought, "I'd even go back to Bush..." Nope. the GWB presidency was an epic failure in my mind. It was probably the combination of threatening Social Security and Katrina hitting at the same time in 2005 that fundamentally changed the national view of GWB, but there was an awful lot wrong with that presidency. Was Trump v.1 worse? I'm not at all sure. I thought Trump 1 was not good, but also not that effective at doing the things that he said he wanted to do. While I was very glad to be rid of him (I thought), it wasn't until after the 2020 election that he really scared me.
Back to 2000. I literally did vote for McCain in the California primary. My recollection, flawed as it may be, is that by the time California voted, the Republican primary was basically already decided, which I was disappointed in. In 2000, I thought McCain was a really good option. He was certainly always more conservative than me, and he had his own flaws, to be sure, but he struck me as honest, honorable, and more concerned about the country, than any particular election. But I think his loss in 2000 changed his approach to presidential politics. By 2008, he was willing to sell out his independence to capture primary votes. I have no regrets about voting for Obama. Once he was out of the presidential politics game, I think McCain went back to who he really wanted to be as a politician. Again, I disagreed with him about a lot of things, but when he wasn't trying to be the president, I thought he was a good voice in the room.

Now we are here in 2025. The landscape has changed a ton, and the parties have, too. People on the right think that the left has gone crazy. For my part, I think that the "mainstream" Rs have completely different policies, except on taxes and abortion, than they had even 12 years ago. And the electorate feels like it has dug in more for each side than it used to.
Things will continue to change. It will be a wild ride--as it often is.


We've got to be pretty close in age, some of this resonates really well to me.  I seem to recollect, especially in the 80's, that the Soviet Union was just a bunch of bad guys who were gonna get us one day.  TV Shows, movies, books reflect this from that era.  Wolverines (movie) depicts this pretty well. 

If you wanted to kill a bad guy in the movies, at the time, Nazi's and Soviets were always in season, and Arabs as well.  In 1991, the Soviet Union fell apart, literally ceased to exist, and it seems like the news outlets hardly covered it.  It was like a bi-line type story.  Or maybe it just felt that way.  I'm sure they covered it, but I'm positive the OJ trial and other trivial stuff like it got way more coverage.  I can still hear Tom Brokaw's voice "The Soviet Union Dissolved Today, in other news frozen concentrated orange juice price fell $.35 .  

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43801 on: April 23, 2025, 02:51:09 PM »
Red Dawn was a great period piece. If you were a teenage boy. :-)


Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43803 on: April 23, 2025, 03:00:48 PM »
I think a lot of the Clinton hype was generated solely from the media.  I think he (GHWB) didn't have a very appealing personality in the public, but I think he was a fine president and did a very good job.  I think he should have taken more credit to winning the cold war, and in hindsight that no-new-taxes fiasco would seem quant by todays 34 trillion deficit comparison.  

I wonder how old I'll be before the next president is younger than me?  Never happened in my lifetime, but I'm just now in my late 40's so you wouldn't expect it.  It was pointed out earlier that multiple presidents were born in '46.  

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43804 on: April 23, 2025, 03:04:42 PM »
Now that I look at the other posts, I didn't realize Obama was so young when he was elected.  

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43805 on: April 23, 2025, 03:16:51 PM »
Clinton was the first baby boomer elected president. That's not a minor thing. His age had a lot to do with it--he was "cooler" than GHWB. The boomers have dominated politics ever since. What's remarkable is that Biden and Trump aren't boomers--they are too old. One of the problems GenX has run into in politics is boomers who won't get out of the way. With no term limits at the federal level (PS I don't advocate for them), the boomers got elected and stayed elected. GenXers are now in their 50s and 60s--which is generally too late to start in federal elected politics. I think we will never see a significant number of GenXers in charge.

 

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