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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43246 on: April 03, 2025, 10:04:31 AM »
I think people generally fail to understand tariffs.

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MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43247 on: April 03, 2025, 11:08:36 AM »
I think people generally fail to understand tariffs.

I think their widespread effects are hard to predict, which maybe factors in more than not understanding them.  That's how it seems to me, anyway.  The concept is pretty basic.  Whether or not they're a net benefit or not is a still-debated question among reputable economists. 

I've previously mentioned that two economists I like, Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell, are not fans of tariffs.  Which is not to say they think tariffs don't have benefits.  They just believe other consequences are negative and outweigh said benefits.  Not everyone agrees with them.  I don't have the expertise to really have a firm opinion and I've done basically no research into the matter, so I admit I just go with what those guys say. 

The average person needs economic relief in a substantial way since the pandemic.  Suppose tariffs increase US jobs.....by how much does that need to happen to mitigate higher costs of goods sold?  There's talk of lowering taxes and replacing that government income with the tariffs.  If that's even doable, how much would income tax need to be alleviated to help people out? 

I don't have the answers to any of those questions, ergo, tariffs make me nervous. 

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43248 on: April 03, 2025, 11:11:23 AM »
made a lot of folks nervous this morning
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bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43249 on: April 03, 2025, 11:15:57 AM »
I think people generally fail to understand tariffs.


In what sense?

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43250 on: April 03, 2025, 11:19:00 AM »
I'm no economic scholar but I have a decent understanding of international business economics and an excellent understanding of global supply chains.

I'm generally not a fan of tariffs.  As MDT states, the scholarly community is not unified on this, since it's extremely difficult to tease out all of the negative externalities driven by increased tariffs, within the global macroeconomy.  But in general I believe more in positive internal actions intended to effect change, rather than negative external activities.

That said, there are specific players in the global economy that have been waging an economic war against the USA for over 5 decades, one which many within the USA either still don't realize is occurring, or have only become recently aware of it.  Tariffs are just one of the many anti-competitive tactics that these global players employ.  Arguably, the tariffs are the least impactful of the anti-competitive tactics used by these bad actors.

I'm more than okay with countering acts of war, to protect our own country and economy.

I just am not certain that these particular actions, will ultimately result in net positive effects for rank and file citizens of the USA.




MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43251 on: April 03, 2025, 11:36:17 AM »
One thing that mitigates my apprehension is who's pulling the levers in this situation.  In my estimation, Trump prides himself on economic success....he really pats his own back for his first-term economy, pre-pandemic, and with good reason.  I think he considers economic well-being his wheelhouse and that he'd be unlikely to be stubborn and fail to do something different if things get significantly worse.  

It would come with a lot of BS about how the tariffs worked wonderfully and did what they needed to do for exactly the amount of time intended, and now things are different and there's no need for them, rather than an "Oops, that didn't work like I expected."  But, that's standard politics. 

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43252 on: April 03, 2025, 11:51:02 AM »
When the value of the dollar (read: world reserve currency) goes up, every US citizen will be happy.
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43253 on: April 03, 2025, 12:35:55 PM »
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43254 on: April 03, 2025, 01:01:22 PM »
What I'd need more information on is:  what negative effects are other countries' tariffs on the USA having on us right now?  What stands to improve for us if our new tariff rates cause other countries to lower their tariff rate on the US to induce the US to lower the new rates levied against them?  And how much would things improve?  

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43255 on: April 03, 2025, 01:32:25 PM »

Apparently the first column is made up nonsense math. Apparently it’s just trade deficit divided by our exports.

On one of those sheets, it says islands with only penguins on them and a territory with only a US Military base are charging us a 10 percent tariff.

I’ll be honest, that’s not inspiring a ton of confidence. It would make quite a Fox News headline that would be shared here. The president’s people think we’re being taxed by penguins!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2025, 02:49:06 PM by bayareabadger »

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43256 on: April 03, 2025, 01:47:46 PM »
Apparently the first column is made up nonsense math. Apparently it’s just trade deficit divided by our experts.

On one of those sheets, it says islands with only penguins on them and a territory with only a US Military base are charging us a 10 percent tariff.

I’ll be honest, that’s not inspiring a ton of confidence. It would make quite a Fox News headline that would be shared here. The president’s people think we’re being taxed by penguins!
Yes, it is completely simplistic nonsense math.

Still, in the case of China at least, it's probably not too far off, when considering not just tariffs but the total cost of all of their other anti-competitive practices.  Honestly, with the way they steal American IP and turn it over to state-controlled industry, you could place the cost of doing business with them as asymptotically approaching infinity.

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43257 on: April 03, 2025, 01:56:15 PM »
I generally vibe with Freidman and Sowell as well.  But something I think that needs discussing is that you have to have some kind of a base.  In much the same way a weight lifter can't lift their own body off the ground your economy can't just simply be all service.  You have to have some kind of industrial base for multiple reasons.  Global factors, war, trade disputes, weather disruptions, all kinds of stuff.  

I've long wondered why we restrict industry in our country with burdensome environmental regulations, labor restrictions, technology restrictions etc.  

We can all agree that the country is probably much better off as a whole than we were in the 1960's/70's when there was not very much environmental restriction and everything was polluted.  So why do we turn around and do business then with countries that don't have similar standards that we do?  For every coal plant we shut down here, China is building several more to off-set any environmental gain.  CO2 doesn't just stay in China.  As a Gen-X-Er I can clearly remember when smog would just be a part of life, it hung over big cities like a dirty cloud, and cars just smelled.  Factories belched out black smoke, the water would be dirty in places.  Everything now is a lot cleaner than it was when I was very young.  India and China?  Not so much.  

ELA

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43258 on: April 03, 2025, 02:08:20 PM »
Yeah, they made a huge mistake listing the specific rates.  They are getting dragged from every angle on those, both the method of calculation, and the clear errors in who was included.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #43259 on: April 03, 2025, 02:21:06 PM »
Apparently the first column is made up nonsense math. Apparently it’s just trade deficit divided by our experts.

How you divide a trade deficit by an expert?  

Like, what happens to the remainder.....the part of the last expert that doesn't evenly fit?  

 

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