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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38724 on: October 31, 2024, 12:09:34 PM »
The difference that you asked about is the fact that there are limits. 

Another example:
If the people of your town decide that they REALLY want a park where your house is, they can take your land (I know you rent but just pretend you own for this) and make it a park.  In a pure Democracy, that would be that and you'd just have to go buy a new house.  In our Constitutional Republic there is a thing called the "Takings Clause" that requires the government to compensate a property owner in this situation.  So the majority CAN take your house but they have to pay for it. 
Ok. So you're basically saying that there are no democracies in the developed world. Because whether you're looking at the OECD, or the EU, or basically any other place in the developed world, they have restrictions on the powers of government and protections for the rights of citizens. The places in the developed world that generally don't (such as China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela) can't reasonably be called "democracies" because the rulers subvert democracy at every turn to hold power. 

So us being a republic is not some unique and special point. Pretty much we can use the term "democracy" interchangeably because that's common parlance. Any developed country we would call a "democracy" is in fact a "republic". 

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38725 on: October 31, 2024, 12:18:13 PM »
changing clocks twice a year is burdensome?
Not really.  Just annoying.

Especially for those of us who have regular meetings with global teams, where some countries don't practice Daylight Wastings at all, and some do but at different dates than the US.  We have to completely rearrange schedules several times per year to account for it.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38726 on: October 31, 2024, 12:25:06 PM »
Ok. So you're basically saying that there are no democracies in the developed world. Because whether you're looking at the OECD, or the EU, or basically any other place in the developed world, they have restrictions on the powers of government and protections for the rights of citizens. The places in the developed world that generally don't (such as China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela) can't reasonably be called "democracies" because the rulers subvert democracy at every turn to hold power.

So us being a republic is not some unique and special point. Pretty much we can use the term "democracy" interchangeably because that's common parlance. Any developed country we would call a "democracy" is in fact a "republic".
A couple things:
First it just generally annoys me when a term gets redefined because people are too lazy to use it correctly.  We have a Republic or Representative Democracy.  

It isn't a Democracy and people shouldn't call it that.  Now get off my lawn, LoL.  

Second, the bigger issue to me is what you noted, that we are a Constitutional Republic.  I don't know that the rest of the developed world is to the extent that we are.  In England they have traditions but no actual Constitution.  A majority of MP's* can (to my understanding, I'm not an expert on English Government) more-or-less change anything.  

*MP's in England are "Members of Parliament".  We should adopt a similarish non-gender-specific term.  We typically say "Congressmen" but there have been female "Congresswomen" for over a Century and "Congressmen and Congresswomen" just feels clunky and overly wordy.  The English "MP's" is much easier.  

Also note related to an earlier discussion we had on here that there are 650 MP's compared to 435 US Congress . . .people despite the UK having a population less than one-fourth that of the US.  By my math (and I might be off a bit here since I'm not 100% clear on who is and isn't included in Parliamentary representation) there is one MP for every 105K residents as compared to one Congresscritter for each 800k residents in the US.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38727 on: October 31, 2024, 12:27:14 PM »
I use the term "democrayc" very broadly, so does the dictionary.

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38728 on: October 31, 2024, 12:43:12 PM »
"congressperson" works pretty well, although I admit it doesn't roll off the tongue quite the same way as congressman or congresswoman. 

I note that several powerful female congresspeople haven't seemed to object to the use of congressman and congresswoman, so applying gender to this title doesn't appear to be a big deal. But if someone is concerned about it, congressperson. :-)

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38729 on: October 31, 2024, 12:44:29 PM »
"congressperson" works pretty well, although I admit it doesn't roll off the tongue quite the same way as congressman or congresswoman.

I note that several powerful female congresspeople haven't seemed to object to the use of congressman and congresswoman, so applying gender to this title doesn't appear to be a big deal. But if someone is concerned about it, congressperson. :-)
Manole ==> Personhole?

That would put the construction industry on its head.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38730 on: October 31, 2024, 12:52:01 PM »
First it just generally annoys me when a term gets redefined because people are too lazy to use it correctly.  We have a Republic or Representative Democracy. 

It isn't a Democracy and people shouldn't call it that.  Now get off my lawn, LoL. 

So it's about being a pedant, not about actually making a salient point?


Quote
Second, the bigger issue to me is what you noted, that we are a Constitutional Republic.  I don't know that the rest of the developed world is to the extent that we are.  In England they have traditions but no actual Constitution.  A majority of MP's* can (to my understanding, I'm not an expert on English Government) more-or-less change anything. 

There are protections built into the English system going all the way back to the Magna Carta, formalized after the Glorious Revolution of 1688 which led to the English Bill of Rights. They adhere to the European Convention on Human Rights as of 1998. 

They may not have written a formalized Constitution in the same way that our young country did, but it's not a legislative free-for-all where MPs can do whatever they desire. 

Now, could they through legislative acts get rid of the protections in English law that protect individual rights? Sure, just as we in this country could amend our Constitution to limit the rights of citizens--as we once did with the 18th Amendment. 

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38731 on: October 31, 2024, 12:59:47 PM »
Manole ==> Personhole?

That would put the construction industry on its head.
That's a red herring. I didn't say anything about service access covers. ;-)


Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38732 on: October 31, 2024, 01:37:06 PM »
Or, we could all just agree that "man" actually refers to "Human" or "Humankind" and wave a little magic wand and stop whining about things that don't really matter.  I even noticed that female actors do not refer to themselves as actresses anymore, it's just actors whether they are male or female.  

Congressman = a congress person who is a human.  Man is a male human, woman is a female human.  

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38733 on: October 31, 2024, 01:38:38 PM »
Womyn won't like that. :)

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38734 on: October 31, 2024, 01:39:16 PM »
Well, there's also the point that @Gigem made, regarding direct voting on legislation by individual citizens at the municipal and county levels.
Thank you for responding to that, it's something I have been dwelling on somewhat recently because I hear it all the time that we aren't a democracy, but yet we do in fact vote on issues like bonds and proposals all the time (at the state/local level).  

It's kinda sorta like when you realize that the University of Southern California is in fact a directional school.  :86:

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38735 on: October 31, 2024, 01:49:09 PM »
Thank you for responding to that, it's something I have been dwelling on somewhat recently because I hear it all the time that we aren't a democracy, but yet we do in fact vote on issues like bonds and proposals all the time (at the state/local level). 

It's kinda sorta like when you realize that the University of Southern California is in fact a directional school.  :86:
Yeah it was a bit strange upthread when medina or max or maybe one of the other Buckeyes (they all look alike to me) asked if direct public voting ever really happened.  Maybe it's different where they are?  Because we have up to dozens of direct votes on propositions and referendums in every voting cycle.  

Usually it's related to increasing tax rates, issuing bonds, changing taxing jurisdictions, and other types of fiscal/financial issues.  But there are also direct referendums on things like moving the airport, and legislation related to bathroom gender issues (a recent local hot button topic to be sure), enacting camping bans in certain public areas (moves to curb homeless camps), and all sorts of other things.  These are all referred directly to individual citizens to vote on, not their representatives.

So yeah, direct "pure democracy" indeed lives at the state and local level, at least around here.

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38736 on: October 31, 2024, 02:33:39 PM »
Or, we could all just agree that "man" actually refers to "Human" or "Humankind" and wave a little magic wand and stop whining about things that don't really matter.  I even noticed that female actors do not refer to themselves as actresses anymore, it's just actors whether they are male or female. 

Congressman = a congress person who is a human.  Man is a male human, woman is a female human. 
Because I'm a lib, I guess, I think it's a little more complicated than this, but it doesn't have to be a lot more complicated. When the gendered term has traditionally meant something exclusionary, and there is a non-gendered term that works every bit as well, why not use the non-gendered term? We had this discussion over breakfast a few weeks ago: "steward" was a position of honor, "stewardess" was generally a service/subsidiary position. Hence the now fairly universally used "flight attendant." That seems fair.

Secretary is a funny one (despite not being gendered): my legal secretary wants to be known as that because a legal secretary is a position with some status. But I know plenty of administrative assistants (even legal assistants) who blanche at the title secretary because of long held biases against the women (it's almost always related to women) who have held that role.

Chair vs. chairman? There's no need to gender the term: the board's chair is just as descriptive, and there is a long history of excluding women from that kind of role, so I can understand why women object to the term chairman (and wouldn't want it themselves).

I also agree that there are plenty of reasons that using the term "man" to refer to a human shouldn't be seen as exclusionary. It's a question of whether the term is being used to assume a gender, versus being used to assume a person. One thing "we" (libs at least) often do in legal writing when referring to a generic judge is to change the pronoun to "she." No harm, no foul, and it establishes that we aren't assuming the judge is male. It's the assumption that is the problem.

And--and this is probably where a lot of people get annoyed by this whole discussion--where the use of a gendered term isn't intended as any kind of a slight, there's no need to get huffy about it. If you're not excluding people, who cares? Stop being so sensitive. I largely agree with this, and I also think it's fair to try to adjust our language to show that we understand the history of exclusion, and that we acknowledge that women should no longer be limited in their opportunities as they have been. 

Language also changes over time. I would never refer to someone as "Oriental," but my parents--and definitely their parents--used that routinely. I wasn't upset at my grandparents using that term, and while it was changing over time, I'm not going to lose my mind when I hear my mother-in-law say it (she lives in an area without a lot of Asian Americans, so it's not surprising that that old-fashioned term has had a longer life where she lives). 

There's nothing wrong with working towards more inclusive language, but we shouldn't overreact to people using antiquated or ambiguous terms, given the context of what someone is saying.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38737 on: October 31, 2024, 02:46:52 PM »
Because I'm a lib, I guess, I think it's a little more complicated than this, but it doesn't have to be a lot more complicated. When the gendered term has traditionally meant something exclusionary, and there is a non-gendered term that works every bit as well, why not use the non-gendered term? 
The one that pisses me off is that I really wish the world would standardize on the non-gendered "they/their" to describe a singular person when writing. 

Because I grew up with the idea that "man" (or "he/his") in a generic writing sense could mean either man or woman, it was an equivalent way to say "person" and "they/their". Which meant that I always assumed that if someone specifically used the gendered form, woman (or "she/hers"), it meant they were deliberately signifying that they were talking about females. 

And then it just seemed to creep into writing that in order to not be exclusionary, sometimes you should use the female version. You should just randomly pick one or the other, making sure you use "she/her" often enough so you don't seem like a misogynistic asshole that thinks men are the only thing that matter. So now "he/his" can mean man or woman, because it was understood it had a non-gendered usage, while now "she/hers" can mean man or woman, despite not having a historical understanding of non-gendered usage. 


 

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