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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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847badgerfan

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U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38711 on: October 31, 2024, 11:21:00 AM »
changing clocks twice a year is burdensome?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38712 on: October 31, 2024, 11:24:42 AM »
The US is a republic and not a democracy.
This is something that far too few people realize let alone understand. 
Okay, I'll bite. Because I hear people say this quite a lot, and I want to know exactly how you both (or anyone else in this thread) understand that statement. 

When you say we're a republic and not a democracy, what EXACTLY do you mean by that? What is the point that you're trying to make with that statement?

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38713 on: October 31, 2024, 11:30:11 AM »
Okay, I'll bite. Because I hear people say this quite a lot, and I want to know exactly how you both (or anyone else in this thread) understand that statement.

When you say we're a republic and not a democracy, what EXACTLY do you mean by that? What is the point that you're trying to make with that statement?
A number of things:

In short, meme form, two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner is perfectly democratic.  

We are a Constitutional Republic.  The majority can't simply impose their will on the minority.  

In a pure democracy the majority can do whatever they want.  

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38714 on: October 31, 2024, 11:32:25 AM »
A number of things:

In short, meme form, two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner is perfectly democratic. 

We are a Constitutional Republic.  The majority can't simply impose their will on the minority. 

In a pure democracy the majority can do whatever they want. 
Great example. A Republic protects the minority from the will of the majority.    
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38715 on: October 31, 2024, 11:33:14 AM »
There is the term "pure democracy" of course, but in general parlance, "democracy" refers broadly to where the people choose their leaders.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38716 on: October 31, 2024, 11:45:59 AM »
A number of things:

In short, meme form, two wolves and a sheep voting on what is for dinner is perfectly democratic. 

We are a Constitutional Republic.  The majority can't simply impose their will on the minority. 

In a pure democracy the majority can do whatever they want. 
Sure they can. The Constitution does limit the scope within which they can do that, but within that scope, the majority imposes their will on the minority all the damn time. 

That's kind of the point of voting. It's to determine who gets the reins of power in DC, in the state legislatures, all the way down to city council. In general, any government law or policy that is voted upon at any of those levels is the majority imposing their will on the minority. 

The majority can't "eat the minority for dinner", but they impose their will all the time. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38717 on: October 31, 2024, 11:54:28 AM »
Great example. A Republic protects the minority from the will of the majority.   
Need I regale you with all the ways in American history where the majority imposed their will on the minority? 

In fact, might I suggest that the electoral college permits the exact opposite--where the minority imposes their will on the majority--in the recent times where literally the President becomes someone that has fewer votes than another candidate?

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38718 on: October 31, 2024, 11:55:06 AM »
Sure they can. The Constitution does limit the scope within which they can do that, but within that scope, the majority imposes their will on the minority all the damn time.

That's kind of the point of voting. It's to determine who gets the reins of power in DC, in the state legislatures, all the way down to city council. In general, any government law or policy that is voted upon at any of those levels is the majority imposing their will on the minority.

The majority can't "eat the minority for dinner", but they impose their will all the time.
The difference that you asked about is the fact that there are limits.  

Another example:
If the people of your town decide that they REALLY want a park where your house is, they can take your land (I know you rent but just pretend you own for this) and make it a park.  In a pure Democracy, that would be that and you'd just have to go buy a new house.  In our Constitutional Republic there is a thing called the "Takings Clause" that requires the government to compensate a property owner in this situation.  So the majority CAN take your house but they have to pay for it.  

utee94

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38719 on: October 31, 2024, 11:56:44 AM »
Well, there's also the point that @Gigem made, regarding direct voting on legislation by individual citizens at the municipal and county levels. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38720 on: October 31, 2024, 12:00:46 PM »
Plus there's the point that @Gigem made, regarding direct voting on legislation by individual citizens at the municipal and county levels. 
How common actually is this?  

Here in Ohio there is a process for Initiative and Referendum* but it is onerous.  If you want to get either on the ballot you need to get signatures of 10% of the number of voters who voted for Governor in the last Governor's election.  In the case of a Referendum there is also a time-limit because the law takes effect in 30 days if the signatures are not submitted by then.  

*Initiative and Referendum:
For anyone who doesn't know and wants to know, an initiative is to pass a law.  A referendum is to overturn a law passed by the legislature.  

It does happen but hardly ever.  

I don't know much about the townhall system but my understanding is that direct popular votes on legislation are far more common in New England towns.  

SFBadger96

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38721 on: October 31, 2024, 12:00:57 PM »
There is nothing inherent about a republic that protects the minority from the majority. What does that is the Constitution's limitation on federal powers and the amendments providing for individual rights (and Supreme Court decisions that decided that the protection of our individual rights apply both against the federal government and the state governments--that's nowhere in the Constitution...silly judicial activism). A republic just means a representative democracy, i.e., all the people don't vote on everything, instead we elect people to vote for us. Republics like ours are democracies, just not "pure democracies" in the sense of we all vote on everything. However, as noted, we do have purely democratic features in many states and localities, i.e. voting on propositions.

I go back to something I said here many pages back: I belivee in electing someone that I trust to represent my interests--even if I don't agree with them on all important issues--is more important that voting for someone who I don't trust, but aligns very closely with my political opinions. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38722 on: October 31, 2024, 12:03:47 PM »
A Republican form of government could trample minority rights, as ours has at times.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #38723 on: October 31, 2024, 12:07:19 PM »
I go back to something I said here many pages back: I belivee in electing someone that I trust to represent my interests--even if I don't agree with them on all important issues--is more important that voting for someone who I don't trust, but aligns very closely with my political opinions.
I agree strongly with this.  

I work in local government and trust me, you don't know whether Mack or Peterbilt Garbage Trucks are better for your City.  You also don't know whether we should buy Ford or Chevrolet Police Cruisers and a whole host of other things.  What you want is to elect people that, as you said, you "trust to represent (your) interests" and let them do the necessary research to determine if we should buy Macks and Fords or Peterbilts and Chevrolets (and all the other stuff).  There is a lot of nuance that goes into these decisions and it simply isn't practical to have every voter try to research Mack/Peterbilt and Ford/Chevrolet.  

 

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