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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37534 on: September 30, 2024, 04:44:37 PM »
Another political topic that hasn't been hit yet but I wanted to explain for people, Negative Campaigning!

Everybody says they hate it but yet we see it ALL the time, why?  

Well, there is a good reason, it works.  However, there ARE important caveats.  It is mainly a question of locality.  There IS some blowback to negative campaigning but the blowback is limited in absolute numbers so the larger the district the less meaningful it is.  

What I mean is this:
Suppose that I was the family that @SFBadger96 referred to earlier that lived around the corner from them and our kids had pet-sat for each other and we'd had reciprocal cookouts and whatnot.  Now it is safe to say that I'm not on his national team, but in this hypothetical, I know him, I know his wife.  If the candidate from my team says that Mrs. SFB is a dirty, rotten, lying, corrupt so-and-so, I'm personally offended.  I might be planning to vote for the candidate from my team for ideological reasons but I'll be personally offended if the candidate from my team says bad things about a person that I personally know.  

In a small local election there are a meaningful number of people who are personally acquainted with both sides.  There may be Republicans who go to church with the Democrat or Democrats who serve on the PTA with the Republican or whatever.  

As the district expands in size the number of such people does not expand so they eventually become irrelevant.  At the extremes:

  • In a campaign for a ward Council seat where there are ~2,000 voters, negative campaigning is NOT going to help a candidate because a substantial portion of the voters will be acquainted with either the candidate or a member of their family or a close friend of the candidate and you'll offend more people than you'll convert.  
  • In a campaign for US Senate where you are looking at ~8M voters (Ohio) the number of people personally acquainted with either candidate is statistically indistinguishable from zero so there is basically no blowback.  Negative campaigning works.  


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37535 on: September 30, 2024, 04:44:59 PM »
And they are fighting because their reflexive reaction is that if team A wants it, it must be bad; and if Team B wants it, it must be good. Nevermind the details.
exactly!

MrNubbz

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37536 on: September 30, 2024, 04:46:38 PM »
Maybe you two should run on the 3rd Party Ticket, how about the Keg Party? Bwarb,utee,Fearless,myself and maybe GR could be in your liquor cabinet
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37537 on: September 30, 2024, 04:57:03 PM »
Some things I've noticed in the current electoral environment in Ohio.  

First ties to CFB:
So in Ohio there is a State Issue, State Issue #1 that is about Gerrymandering.  Proponents argue that it will end Gerrymandering, opponents argue that it IS a gerrymandering proposal.  

Nevertheless, what I found HILARIOUS is that the proponents are running an ad that features Michigan's recently departed cheating coach.  The ad goes like this:

  • Screen shows Jim Harbaugh.  Voice-over says "When coaches don't follow the rules we call it cheating."  
  • Voice-over continues:  "When politicians don't follow the rules we call it Gerrymandering".  
I think the ad is hilarious because in 48 states people wouldn't get it.  In Michigan people would hate it.  In Ohio, people love it.  Well done by the Issue 1 proponents.  

It reminds me of something I read on the 1976 election.  Gerald Ford started out WAY behind Jimmy Carter yet pulled close and almost pulled off the upset.  One of his successful ad campaigns focused on his time as a football player at Michigan.  However, when they aired that ad in Ohio they dropped all references to "Michigan" and even tried to blur up the video to make his Michigan uniform unrecognizable.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37538 on: September 30, 2024, 05:09:51 PM »
I agree with your thoughts on Congress. And BRAD's point is a good one, but to his point:

The key to my views on Congress are related to something else you said: knocking on doors is the best, and most meaningful way to win votes, but you can't knock on 400,000 doors. More than a couple thousand is pretty difficult for any one person (and a couple thousand is a lot of walking). I think our experience is you can do about 5-7 houses per hour of actual engagement (meaning you talk to the person who answers the door).

You may get more extreme people, but you will also--I think--get a lot more middle of the road people. The impact of national politics on local races right now is extreme (as Medina said: red or blue), but if you make the districts manageable for walking and talking, you'll get a lot less focus on how someone approaches the (name your hot-button issue), and a lot more focus on what people actually want from their government--which tends to be more middle of the road.
What worries me, though, is that if I'm electing a representative that's 1 out of 4000 votes in Congress, what incentive do I have to care? Sure, who I elect might be more attentive to MY individual needs as a voter (along with the others in the district), but they'll have absolutely zero power to meet those individual needs. 

And while I think there might be more middle of the road people, I do think the extremes will be even MORE commonly elected, and that's not a good thing. Especially if they figure out how to gerrymander even more than they do today--which should be easier with smaller districts that are too plentiful to give meaningful oversight. 

This is exactly why I'm not convinced either.  I mentioned when I introduced this that:Then I said that:Your objections are exactly why I'm not 100% convinced. 

I guess my working theory is that Congress should be maybe something like doubled in size.  I look at in this way:
The average Congressional District is now at almost 800k.  I feel like 800k is "too big" but I say that admitting that "too big" is not a very concrete concept.  Considering it, my County has a population of almost 200k and I "know" my County officials.  Congress, not so much.  I've "met" my congressman but at the type of events they hold to "meet" people.  I've interacted with his staff on projects but always staff because . . . well because the districts are too big so they don't have time to interact with everybody. 

With Congressional districts at ~800k, my 200k county is around 1/4 of a Congressional District.  With twice as many Districts my ~200k County would be half and that "feels" like it would be more what I am looking for in terms of Congressional relation to the district. 

To clarify, and this is WAY more important that most people realize, I'd expand the size of Congress WITHOUT expanding the staffing.  The existing staff is more than large enough and I'd just share them among twice as many members.  I don't know if this would actually be practical but that is @medinabuckeye1 's theory. 
Ok so flesh it out. Suddenly instead of 435 members of the House we have 900. Now they are representing a more reasonable[??] number like 400K each, but they only have half the voting power in the body to do anything for those 400K. 

The truth is that representative democracy is broken. Our political system is that you're either an R or you're a D. More representatives doesn't change that. It just means you have more of them to argue with each other. 

MrNubbz

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37539 on: September 30, 2024, 05:11:11 PM »
It reminds me of something I read on the 1976 election.  Gerald Ford started out WAY behind Jimmy Carter yet pulled close and almost pulled off the upset.  One of his successful ad campaigns focused on his time as a football player at Michigan.  However, when they aired that ad in Ohio they dropped all references to "Michigan" and even tried to blur up the video to make his Michigan uniform unrecognizable. 
Did he win Ohio?
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

MaximumSam

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37540 on: September 30, 2024, 05:17:24 PM »
There was a good documentary on Netflix called "The Swamp," which followed three Republican Congressmen, Ken Buck, Tom Massie, and Matt Gaetz, as they dealt with their jobs. Through no fault of their own, it didn't have much to do with the law. It was quite good and didn't get much attention, probably because there aren't any easy answers.

For the most part, Congress doesn't argue about much of anything at all anymore.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37541 on: September 30, 2024, 05:23:06 PM »
More in Ohio currently:

To understand this you need a brief understanding of Ohio:
From 1896-2016 Ohio voted for the winner in 29 of 31 POTUS elections.  That was the most of any state.  Ie, Ohio was a battleground state for more than a century.  

Recently, however, Ohio has trended strongly toward Republicans.  In the 2020 election Ohio voted for a non-winning Presidential candidate for the first time since voting (narrowly) for Nixon in 1960.  There was a BIG difference between 1960 and 2020 though.  In 1960 both the national and the Ohio elections were VERY close.  In 2020 the national election was fairly close but the election in Ohio was not close at all, Ohio has become reliably Republican.  

The Presidential race in Ohio is not the least bit interesting.  Ohio is safely in the red camp and will vote for Donald Trump for a third time and it will not be close.  Everyone knows this so there is basically no Presidential campaigning on the airwaves in Ohio.  

There is, however, an increasingly interesting US Senate race in Ohio.  Democrat Sherrod Brown has represented Ohio in the US Senate since taking out Republican Mike DeWine in the 2006 election.  This is pretty impressive considering DeWine's extensive successful electoral history.  Beyond that, Brown didn't just beat Mike DeWine, he clobbered him by more than 12%.  Then he won re-election in 2012 and 2018 by about 7% each time against Josh Mandel and Jim Renacci respectively.  

More than a month ago I learned that the NRSC was basically giving up on Ohio so I assumed that Sherrod Brown was a shoe-in but it hasn't worked out that way.  Brown's Republican opponent is Bernie Moreno and Moreno is making a race of it.  The latest polling says that it is neck-and-neck and Moreno may even have a slight lead depending on which pollster you trust.  

The first thing I want to note here is that Brown is running at least 6-8% ahead of the Democratic Presidential Candidate in Ohio.  In years past (basically all of 1896-2020) that would have been enough to EASILY win.  However, Ohio has trended so strongly Republican that beating the D POTUS candidate by 8%+ might not be enough for Sherrod Brown because Harris might lose Ohio by more than 8% even if she ultimately wins nationally.  

About three weeks ago I suddenly started seeing Moreno ads on YouTube.  Let me clarify.  They aren't actually "Moreno ads".  They aren't paid for by the Moreno campaign and they are definitively NOT pro-Moreno.  The ads are negative campaigning against Sherrod Brown and the disclaimers all say that they are paid for by various super-PAC's.  

Then, about a week ago, I started seeing Brown ads.  Just as above, they aren't actually "Brown ads".  They aren't paid for by the Brown campaign and the are NOT pro-Brown.  

I honestly don't think I've seen a single ad that was pro either.  Instead I've seen endless anti ads.  It is ALL negative campaigning.  

So what are the biggest weaknesses of the two candidates based on what I'm seeing? Well:

  • For Brown #1 is the border and the related issue of funding for illegal entrants.  Most of the anti-Brown ads focus on his votes for amnesty and/or votes for benefits for illegals.  
  • For Brown #2 is Trans-mania.  The anti-Brown ads that aren't focused on illegal immigration are focused on allowing men to compete in women's sports.  
  • For Moreno it is abortion and nothing else.  The anti-Moreno ads have hit him on his pro-life stance.  

A number of the anti-Brown ads have taken an interesting approach to negative campaigning.  In what I assume is an effort to limit blowback they aren't saying that Brown is this or that, they are saying that "Washington changed Sherrod Brown".  I actually think this serves two functions.  First, it limits blowback because it avoids saying that the person did something and instead blames it on "Washington" and everybody (L and R) hates "Washington".  Second, it allows former Brown voters to excuse themselves.  Ie, "I didn't change my views, 'Washington' changed my guy so now I'll vote for a new guy."


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37542 on: September 30, 2024, 05:23:27 PM »
Did he win Ohio?
No but it was close.  

847badgerfan

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37543 on: September 30, 2024, 05:29:59 PM »
That said, Max and the title agent likely have no idea what kind of just the County Engineer is doing.  Badge and Max probably have no idea what kind of job the Recorder is doing.  Badge and the title agent likely have no idea what kind of job the Clerk of Court is doing.
Badge is a licensed engineer and land surveyor. He knows what the recorder and clerk do, as well what the title insurance companies do.

He's not perfect for your example.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

MrNubbz

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37544 on: September 30, 2024, 05:30:43 PM »
No but it was close. 
Back when you could be proud of this state 😎
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37545 on: September 30, 2024, 05:32:22 PM »
Some things I've noticed in the current electoral environment in Ohio. 

First ties to CFB:
So in Ohio there is a State Issue, State Issue #1 that is about Gerrymandering.  Proponents argue that it will end Gerrymandering, opponents argue that it IS a gerrymandering proposal. 

Nevertheless, what I found HILARIOUS is that the proponents are running an ad that features Michigan's recently departed cheating coach.  The ad goes like this:

  • Screen shows Jim Harbaugh.  Voice-over says "When coaches don't follow the rules we call it cheating." 
  • Voice-over continues:  "When politicians don't follow the rules we call it Gerrymandering". 
I think the ad is hilarious because in 48 states people wouldn't get it.  In Michigan people would hate it.  In Ohio, people love it.  Well done by the Issue 1 proponents. 
I've told the story here but a few years ago, the state legislature voted to increase the gas tax in CA. The supposed beneficiaries of this new revenue were first responders. But as we all know, money is fungible. 

There was a push to have a ballot proposition to cancel the proposed gas tax increase. The groups pushing to vote against cancelling the gas tax increase were a lot of first responder groups [obviously] and they absolutely wallpapered television here with advertisements urging people to vote against the proposition. These were emotional ads talking about how voting for the proposition would hurt first responders and lead to not being able to access needed services and [essentially] that CA would just turn into a hellhole if you vote Yes. 

You know what they NEVER did in a single one of these ads that I can recall? Mention the gas tax. 

And the proposition failed.

So a very unpopular gas tax increase ended up staying, because voters are stupid, who then complain about the price of gas and wonder why nobody is doing something about the price of gas.

Gigem

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37546 on: September 30, 2024, 06:25:27 PM »
Texas desperately needs to raise the gas tax here, but it hasn’t budged since the 1990’s. Hence, we get lots of toll roads. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #37547 on: September 30, 2024, 06:41:02 PM »
Texas desperately needs to raise the gas tax here, but it hasn’t budged since the 1990’s. Hence, we get lots of toll roads.
Yeah. Because CA doesn't have those :57:

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