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Topic: OT-Politics Thread: please TRY to keep it civil, you damned dirty apes

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bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35882 on: August 14, 2024, 09:07:02 AM »
In observing the state of conversation around free speech ideals, I’m always struck by the fact that they folks on all sides are strongly in favor of it, until it comes to people they don’t like freely saying things they don’t like.

Then too many folks shrink from principles.

The speech makes a good point about legal  process as punishment. It’s important to remember that as a tool in the anti-speech arsenal. We must be vigilant of that and not under the guise of “consequences“

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35883 on: August 14, 2024, 10:11:15 AM »
In observing the state of conversation around free speech ideals, I’m always struck by the fact that they folks on all sides are strongly in favor of it, until it comes to people they don’t like freely saying things they don’t like.

Then too many folks shrink from principles.
Not me. Pretty much free speech absolutist here. 

There are some limited areas (defamation, true/credible threats, incitement, etc) that the SCOTUS has ruled are not protected. And for those areas, that makes sense. But given how narrow they are, I don't think supporting them jeopardizes my claim to be a free speech absolutist. 

MaximumSam

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35884 on: August 14, 2024, 10:21:51 AM »
Popehat talks a lot about how libel lawsuits are often infringements of free speech

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35885 on: August 14, 2024, 10:44:13 AM »
Popehat talks a lot about how libel lawsuits are often infringements of free speech
Yes, the issue is that they're functionally used to chill speech, which is why he advocates for robust anti-SLAPP protection laws. 

However I don't think that is an indication that defamation should be legal. And unlike some of the stuff going on the UK, defamation is NOT a criminal matter, it's a civil tort. Which IMHO puts it in a completely different category. 

bayareabadger

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35886 on: August 14, 2024, 10:59:38 AM »
Not me. Pretty much free speech absolutist here.

There are some limited areas (defamation, true/credible threats, incitement, etc) that the SCOTUS has ruled are not protected. And for those areas, that makes sense. But given how narrow they are, I don't think supporting them jeopardizes my claim to be a free speech absolutist.
I think We are mostly in agreement that defamation is good legal concept to have, but the way it often operates is to further chill speech which we should fight against most of the time. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35887 on: August 14, 2024, 11:09:27 AM »
Not me. Pretty much free speech absolutist here.
I am from a viewpoint neutrality perspective but I do disagree with some of what has been done in the name of free speech.  

Specifically, I disagree with the SCOTUS holding in Cohen v California.  Here are the details:

During the Vietnam War Paul Robert Cohen wore a jacket with "F*ck the Draft" written on it.  SCOTUS ultimately ruled that this was protected as free speech.  

There are a couple of issues here.  One is that "Political Speech" has been given greater deference by the courts than non-political speech.  There is a very good reason for this.  The Framers didn't create a protection for Free Speech to protect commercial speech, Free Speech was and is specifically protected by the Constitution because they wanted to protect Political Speech.  

My law professor asked whether a jacket that had "I really, REALLY don't like the draft" would be as powerful a political statement as the one in this case.  

My issue with this case is not the viewpoint.  My issue is that I believe that the speech can be protected with limitations on the manner in which the issue is presented publicly.  Specifically, it is due to this case that there are several trucks running around my town with "F*ck Joe Biden" flags flying off of them and it is also why (to tie this back to CFB), if you go to THE GAME this fall in Columbus you'll see dozens of "F*ck Michigan" shirts and if you go next year in Ann Arbor you'll see dozens of "F*ck Ohio State" shirts.  

From a legal perspective, I do not believe that the profanity is necessary to the speech at least in a public setting.  If you have a rally fine.  On the public street, I believe that local government should be permitted to proscribe profanity.  

In theory you could make a ruling that protected the "F*ck the Draft" shirts and the "F*ck Joe Biden" flags without protecting the "F*ck Michigan" and "F*ck Ohio State" shirts.  You could accomplish this by prohibiting restrictions of profanity with regard to Political Speech but NOT other speech.  As a practical matter I can't imagine this working.  

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35888 on: August 14, 2024, 11:21:43 AM »
She was running a rematch vs. Don Samuels, who may be the most unlikeable member of a Minneapolis city government that is rank with unlikeable characters.

Two years ago, she ignored his primary challenge and had to sweat out a photo finish. She did not make the same mistake twice.

Elsewhere on the Minnesota ballot, the Republican Senate candidate against Amy Klobuchar is six figures in hock on his child support. A deadbeat dad is the one thing that the Republican ticket was missing until last night.
Still, you would think he would do well against a Muslim terrorist with clear hatred for anything American? Not in Leftasota I guess.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35889 on: August 14, 2024, 11:31:17 AM »
From a legal perspective, I do not believe that the profanity is necessary to the speech at least in a public setting.  If you have a rally fine.  On the public street, I believe that local government should be permitted to proscribe profanity. 
Why? Because some weirdos decided that "f*ck" is a bad word but "fornicate", "screw", "boff", "slip her the salami", and other things aren't. 

You're essentially being the exact definition of what @bayareabadger describes. "I like free speech, but do they have to swear so much? I think we should be able to stop that."

To which I say, "f*ck that noise". 

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35890 on: August 14, 2024, 11:32:40 AM »
Why? Because some weirdos decided that "f*ck" is a bad word but "fornicate", "screw", "boff", "slip her the salami", and other things aren't.

You're essentially being the exact definition of what @bayareabadger describes. "I like free speech, but do they have to swear so much? I think we should be able to stop that."

To which I say, "f*ck that noise".
My laugh for the day.   Lol.   Spit my water up.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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MaximumSam

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35891 on: August 14, 2024, 11:34:18 AM »
Still, you would think he would do well against a Muslim terrorist with clear hatred for anything American? Not in Leftasota I guess. 
This feels like inventing characters just to hate them. Which I guess is typical in politics these days.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35892 on: August 14, 2024, 11:41:29 AM »
This feels like inventing characters just to hate them. Which I guess is typical in politics these days.
Do your research.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

MaximumSam

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35893 on: August 14, 2024, 11:42:20 AM »
Though Republicans in Minnesota endorsed and nominated Royce White for for Senate, formerly of the NBA, who owes thousands in child support and is mired in campaign finance allegations from spending campaign money at a strip club in Florida. He said he liked the food there. Maybe our Floridians can make a trip and let us know how the food is. He's also besties with Alex Jones.

MaximumSam

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35894 on: August 14, 2024, 11:43:32 AM »
Do your research. 
She's not a terrorist. I mean come on.

FearlessF

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Re: OT-Catch all thread - Personal attacks will result in a time out
« Reply #35895 on: August 14, 2024, 11:48:48 AM »
how are you so sure w/o research?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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